Are all evil gods gods of evil things? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are all evil gods gods of evil things? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
07-18-07, 06:21 PM Do all evil gods preside over portfolios of bad/undesirable/evil things, like plagues, massacres, theft, deception, etc? Or could there be an evil god who presides over a non-evil portfolio, but who just happens to be evil for general reasons?

For instance, take a god of agriculture who gets an ego trip from human sacrifices, and likes having his worshippers sacrifice people to him, but who is otherwise a typical agriculture deity: if a village didn't sacrifice to him, he might ignore them (he wouldn't send locusts or blights at them, because that's not his portfolio), whereas one that gave generous sacrifices might get a lot of rain, bumper crops, etc.

Would such a deity be possible, or is it outside D&D cosmology's possibilities? Are there already such deities that I'm ignoring?
Werral
07-18-07, 06:34 PM Well there are good gods with war in their portfolios and war is a bad/undesirable thing.
Thegans
07-18-07, 07:06 PM Do all evil gods preside over portfolios of bad/undesirable/evil things, like plagues, massacres, theft, deception, etc? Or could there be an evil god who presides over a non-evil portfolio, but who just happens to be evil for general reasons?

For instance, take a god of agriculture who gets an ego trip from human sacrifices, and likes having his worshippers sacrifice people to him, but who is otherwise a typical agriculture deity: if a village didn't sacrifice to him, he might ignore them (he wouldn't send locusts or blights at them, because that's not his portfolio), whereas one that gave generous sacrifices might get a lot of rain, bumper crops, etc.

Would such a deity be possible, or is it outside D&D cosmology's possibilities? Are there already such deities that I'm ignoring?

An evil god of agriculture would probably work great.

A group of adventurers enter a small village and the townspeople under the orders of the high priest attack the adventurers and try to burry them alive as sacrifices to the god so that they can have a better harvest than last year.
Werral
07-18-07, 07:13 PM Wicker Man?
Apocolypse_77
07-18-07, 07:16 PM urbanus is the creator god of humans and cities, he has an evil alignment.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-18-07, 08:00 PM urbanus is the creator god of humans and cities, he has an evil alignment.

Are you sure you're not talking about Zarus? He's a supposed human creator, and also the god of a very evil thing (Racial supremecy).
Apocolypse_77
07-18-07, 08:52 PM Are you sure you're not talking about Zarus? He's a supposed human creator, and also the god of a very evil thing (Racial supremecy).

ah you are right, i didn't check before i posted. I just checked and i am mixing together the 2 human dieties Urbanus and zarus, zarus is the creator of humans and his portfolios are Humanity, domination and perfection. Of those domination would probably fall under the evil category so he does not fit the given subject. sorry for the mess up.
Hellsbells
07-18-07, 09:04 PM An evil agricultural god could (as well as everything said above) could have a corrupte avenger style. He is ****** at humanoids (except his followers of course) cause they ruin nature, so he tries to destroy them. I also have an evil goddess of love in my campaign so figure that out. and by the way despite being evil her clerics can choose whether to channel negative or possitive energy.
Apocolypse_77
07-18-07, 09:18 PM your topic peeked my interest and i have been searching my books and one i found that was close is

Laduguer- the diety of the duergar. Lawful evil with portfolio's of Magic weapons, artisans, magic, and duergar. The only thing evil amoung those is the race, so he is really not a god of an evil subject beyond the race he created.

Another more well known example is Vecna- who is neutral evil and has the portfolio of secrets and intrigue, which are not in themselves evil.

besides those 2 i can't seem to find any other examples. But i will keep looking and should i find more will post.
JulesCARV
07-18-07, 09:18 PM I think that a deity that doesn't like humanoids altering the natural environment is unlikely to have agriculture as a portfolio.
Millennium
07-18-07, 09:35 PM Deities and Demigods stats Hades out as LE, though it notes that he's not particularly malevolent. He is of course the god of death, but he is also the god of wealth. Evil nature gods have also been done before; perhaps the most popular is Malar from Forgotten Realms, who acts as a predator.
aushlo
07-18-07, 09:44 PM Wicker Man?

Children of the Corn, even.
oracle71
07-18-07, 10:03 PM Gods of nature or the elements, much like druids, could easily be good, neutral, or evil depending on whether they represent nature as the "cradle of life" or as the "savagery of the hunt." Water quenches thirst and also drowns, fire destroys and also purifies, etc. A god of luck could be a benevolent jokester, or a malicious, sadistic prankster.

There is nothing that says evil gods must represent inherently evil things, they just tend to gravitate towards them.
caeruleus
07-19-07, 12:41 AM Deities and Demigods lists Sobek (in the Pharaonic pantheon) as LE, and his portfolio is water, river hazards, crocodiles, wetlands. River hazards may not be desirable, but they're hardly "evil".

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has Auril as NE, and her portfolio is cold and winter. Umberlee is listed as CE, and her portfolio is oceans, currents, waves, sea winds.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-19-07, 01:02 AM Deities and Demigods lists Sobek (in the Pharaonic pantheon) as LE, and his portfolio is water, river hazards, crocodiles, wetlands. River hazards may not be desirable, but they're hardly "evil".

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has Auril as NE, and her portfolio is cold and winter. Umberlee is listed as CE, and her portfolio is oceans, currents, waves, sea winds.

However, they're the evil manifestations of the things; Auril is the freezing, enroaching, bone-chilling cold that blights the land and makes it waste. Umberlee's all about the storms and giant city-crushing waves and stuff like that.
myusernameis
07-19-07, 01:12 AM There's Azul in Sandstorm, he's a Lawful Evil deity of rain.
Return of the Flumph
07-19-07, 01:38 AM Look at the Lords of Creation thread on the Campaign Workshop boards. There is an incredibly evil sky god in that.
navar100
07-19-07, 01:41 AM An evil god of agriculture would probably work great.

A group of adventurers enter a small village and the townspeople under the orders of the high priest attack the adventurers and try to burry them alive as sacrifices to the god so that they can have a better harvest than last year.

"He who walks behind the Rows" - Children of the Corn
Return of the Flumph
07-19-07, 01:42 AM "He who walks behind the Rows" - Children of the Corn

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was reminded of that.
caeruleus
07-19-07, 02:35 AM However, they're the evil manifestations of the things; Auril is the freezing, enroaching, bone-chilling cold that blights the land and makes it waste. Umberlee's all about the storms and giant city-crushing waves and stuff like that.

What else would an evil deity be a manifestation of? The portfolios are not evil in themselves.
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-19-07, 02:43 AM All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.
Apocolypse_77
07-19-07, 08:24 AM All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.

umm Wee Jas is neutral. And she is a death god.
DwarfPcfan
07-19-07, 09:00 AM All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.

Uh, Don't forget Osiris, god of the dead, the underworld and the Offering Fields, He's Lawful Good!
Millennium
07-19-07, 09:16 AM I could also see the case for an Evil deity of love, actually. Such a being would be cruel and capricious, tangling people up in intricate networks of relationships where nobody escapes unharmed. It might particularly delight in holding out the promise of true love, yet ensuring that almost no one ever actually achieves it: just enough get through to ensure that the people don't get disillusioned.
caeruleus
07-19-07, 12:31 PM All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.

umm Wee Jas is neutral. And she is a death god.

Uh, Don't forget Osiris, god of the dead, the underworld and the Offering Fields, He's Lawful Good!

Right, and Kelemvor of the Forgotten Realms in LN.
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-19-07, 12:59 PM Hm, you are right. Wee Jas is an exception.
The others kinda don't count, because while they may have the portofolio of death, they do not have that domain, which imo makes them deific posers in that regard.
caeruleus
07-19-07, 02:27 PM Hm, you are right. Wee Jas is an exception.
The others kinda don't count, because while they may have the portofolio of death, they do not have that domain, which imo makes them deific posers in that regard.

The FRCS gives Kelemvor the Death domain (although I realize that he is not listed as granting it in the PGtF).

Osiris has the Repose domain, which is "similar to the Death domain in the Player's Handbook, but is granted by good-aligned deities whose clerics are barred from casting evil spells." (DDG, p. 215) It's specifically for deities of death who are not evil.
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-19-07, 02:57 PM Kelemvor does not have that domain in Faiths & Pantheons and that's where I looked.
So the Repose domain is to the Death domain basically what Deathless are for Undead? I was not aware of that either. Shows what I know. :(
Hellsbells
07-19-07, 07:54 PM Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-19-07, 08:55 PM Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age.

Anubis is LN.

What else would an evil deity be a manifestation of? The portfolios are not evil in themselves.

Yes, but in the case of Umberlee and Auril, there are other, greater gods whose portfolios consist solely of water and cold. They specifically are the gods of it's harsher aspects.
Millennium
07-19-07, 11:35 PM Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age.
Anubis isn't Evil, but he's also more of a psychopomp than an actual god of the dead. That is to say, he guides the dead to the afterlife, much like Hermes does in Greek mythology, but he's not the lord of the dead: that job belongs to someone else.
Eco-Mono
07-20-07, 01:21 AM Wicker Man?You took the bees right out of my mouth. ;)
ArcTan
07-20-07, 02:42 AM All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.

The classic Greek Hades' evil-ness is highly questionable, and what there is is mainly due to the fact that the Greek gods were generally morally questionable by current standards of right and wrong.

While Arawn definitely has a dark bent -- one heavily exploited in the fictionalized Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander -- a lot of this comes after the Christianizing of Welsh myth, and he's a far more neutral figure in the original pagan myth (as is the case with many pagan myths that got Christian influence, like the Eddic Norse gods).
ArcTan
07-20-07, 02:43 AM Anubis isn't Evil, but he's also more of a psychopomp than an actual god of the dead. That is to say, he guides the dead to the afterlife, much like Hermes does in Greek mythology, but he's not the lord of the dead: that job belongs to someone else.

Namely Osiris.
mmxbass
07-20-07, 02:51 AM Not quite on topic but pertinent nonetheless: Evening Glory. Namely, a non-evil deity of undeath, something typically regarded as 'evil'.
Callista
07-20-07, 12:28 PM ...but she presides over the neutral/good aspects of undead...
mmxbass
07-20-07, 02:02 PM That's sort of my point though. Most domains are not in themselves inherently good or evil. It's just people's default preconceptions of them.
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-20-07, 02:06 PM The classic Greek Hades' evil-ness is highly questionable, and what there is is mainly due to the fact that the Greek gods were generally morally questionable by current standards of right and wrong.

While Arawn definitely has a dark bent -- one heavily exploited in the fictionalized Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander -- a lot of this comes after the Christianizing of Welsh myth, and he's a far more neutral figure in the original pagan myth (as is the case with many pagan myths that got Christian influence, like the Eddic Norse gods).
Oh, I certainly agree with you and I think that Hel, too, suffers from christianization and demonization which twist her into an evilness she wasn't supposed to have.

But now that I am aware of what the Repose domain is, I think I understand that Hades, Arawn and Hel are gods of icky death, while, say, Sehanine Moonbow is a goddess of squeaky clean death. And icky is evil in DnD, so they are too.

...but she presides over the neutral/good aspects of undead...
Do you see this can of worms? It's now open again. :eek:
Lobsopdoy
07-20-07, 04:59 PM Oh, I certainly agree with you and I think that Hel, too, suffers from christianization and demonization which twist her into an evilness she wasn't supposed to have.

But now that I am aware of what the Repose domain is, I think I understand that Hades, Arawn and Hel are gods of icky death, while, say, Sehanine Moonbow is a goddess of squeaky clean death. And icky is evil in DnD, so they are too.

Do you see this can of worms? It's now open again. :eek:

I object to saying that Hades was a god of "icky" death. In Greek mythology, there is no icky death or clean death, just death as a cold immovable fact of life. It doesn't matter if you died choking on your own feces or died saving orphans from a fire, you're going to be just as dead and are going to the same place unless the gods feel like putting you in Elysium. And how many people go there? A couple dozen maybe? No, there is only death as the end. Hades is Neutral, he does his job because someone has to, and he could really care less what mortals thought of him.

Hel on the other hand is a goddess of icky death from the viewpoint of the Norse.
Basically, if you don't die in battle, you spend eternity freezing cold until Ragnorok, then you get to ride a ship made out of toenails and taste oblivion. She is evil because she's on the side of evil. None of the gods are really that "good", Thor is the closest I can think of to being heroic. But the fact is that they are less evil then Loki and Hel.

So that's my thought on icky and clean deaths.

*Takes cover*
ArcTan
07-21-07, 06:11 AM I object to saying that Hades was a god of "icky" death. In Greek mythology, there is no icky death or clean death, just death as a cold immovable fact of life. It doesn't matter if you died choking on your own feces or died saving orphans from a fire, you're going to be just as dead and are going to the same place unless the gods feel like putting you in Elysium. And how many people go there? A couple dozen maybe? No, there is only death as the end. Hades is Neutral, he does his job because someone has to, and he could really care less what mortals thought of him.

Hel on the other hand is a goddess of icky death from the viewpoint of the Norse.
Basically, if you don't die in battle, you spend eternity freezing cold until Ragnorok, then you get to ride a ship made out of toenails and taste oblivion. She is evil because she's on the side of evil. None of the gods are really that "good", Thor is the closest I can think of to being heroic. But the fact is that they are less evil then Loki and Hel.

Thor? Thor is an ass. Thor is the same oafish brute in the myths that Ares is in Greek myth.

Are you confusing Thor with Tyr?

FWIW, I never really considered the Norse gods as a whole to be unheroic -- they're just heroic in a much more bitter, harsh "Do what must be done" way than those of us used to a Christianized mythology might like.

So that's my thought on icky and clean deaths.

*Takes cover*

Enh. Basically, D&D cosmologies are embedded in icky-vs-clean for their iconography and mythology, and therefore *for D&D purposes* it is legitimate to say that you want to repurpose Hades as a more unequivocally bad god (as has already been done in countless modern retellings of the stories). Stories evolve, change for new purposes, the Hades you read about in Bulfinch had already been repurposed for a dozen different things from whatever he was back in the pre-mythology before writing and the Greek civilization, etc.
Lobsopdoy
07-21-07, 03:56 PM Thor? Thor is an ass. Thor is the same oafish brute in the myths that Ares is in Greek myth.

Are you confusing Thor with Tyr?

FWIW, I never really considered the Norse gods as a whole to be unheroic -- they're just heroic in a much more bitter, harsh "Do what must be done" way than those of us used to a Christianized mythology might like.

Enh. Basically, D&D cosmologies are embedded in icky-vs-clean for their iconography and mythology, and therefore *for D&D purposes* it is legitimate to say that you want to repurpose Hades as a more unequivocally bad god (as has already been done in countless modern retellings of the stories). Stories evolve, change for new purposes, the Hades you read about in Bulfinch had already been repurposed for a dozen different things from whatever he was back in the pre-mythology before writing and the Greek civilization, etc.

Sorry, I was speaking of Hades as he was portrayed in Greek mythology, not necessarily the D&D universe. It's just an example of a diety of something that is often considered evil that isn't necessarily evil.

As for the Norse gods, they are heroic, but I don't think that they're good. Tyr doesn't do much except get his hand bitten off by Fenrir, which admittedly took a lot of balls to do. Odin, for example, has people sacrificed to him, betrays people when he feels like it (Except when it would break some kind of honor code, such as taking in travellers), stuff like that.
Jagyr Ebonwood
07-21-07, 05:27 PM Wicker Man?

"I hope your frickin' apple pie was worth it!"

[/Supernatural reference]
Hellsbells
07-21-07, 09:56 PM I personally believe that an update should be made to Dieties and demigods, in a couple of books one for each pantheon introduced in the original. I think a lot more justice can be done to Hel and her realm. As for people sacrificing stuff to odin, one of the greatest honors was to suicidly hang your self in the name of odin, so yah The norce gods are honorabe, horoic, but not actually good, they are get it done, do what must be done gods.
Lobsopdoy
07-22-07, 12:23 AM I can agree with that

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 06:21 PM	Do all evil gods preside over portfolios of bad/undesirable/evil things, like plagues, massacres, theft, deception, etc? Or could there be an evil god who presides over a non-evil portfolio, but who just happens to be evil for general reasons? For instance, take a god of agriculture who gets an ego trip from human sacrifices, and likes having his worshippers sacrifice people to him, but who is otherwise a typical agriculture deity: if a village didn't sacrifice to him, he might ignore them (he wouldn't send locusts or blights at them, because that's not his portfolio), whereas one that gave generous sacrifices might get a lot of rain, bumper crops, etc. Would such a deity be possible, or is it outside D&D cosmology's possibilities? Are there already such deities that I'm ignoring?
Werral 07-18-07, 06:34 PM	Well there are good gods with war in their portfolios and war is a bad/undesirable thing.
Thegans 07-18-07, 07:06 PM	Do all evil gods preside over portfolios of bad/undesirable/evil things, like plagues, massacres, theft, deception, etc? Or could there be an evil god who presides over a non-evil portfolio, but who just happens to be evil for general reasons? For instance, take a god of agriculture who gets an ego trip from human sacrifices, and likes having his worshippers sacrifice people to him, but who is otherwise a typical agriculture deity: if a village didn't sacrifice to him, he might ignore them (he wouldn't send locusts or blights at them, because that's not his portfolio), whereas one that gave generous sacrifices might get a lot of rain, bumper crops, etc. Would such a deity be possible, or is it outside D&D cosmology's possibilities? Are there already such deities that I'm ignoring? An evil god of agriculture would probably work great. A group of adventurers enter a small village and the townspeople under the orders of the high priest attack the adventurers and try to burry them alive as sacrifices to the god so that they can have a better harvest than last year.
Werral 07-18-07, 07:13 PM	Wicker Man?
Apocolypse_77 07-18-07, 07:16 PM	urbanus is the creator god of humans and cities, he has an evil alignment.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-18-07, 08:00 PM	urbanus is the creator god of humans and cities, he has an evil alignment. Are you sure you're not talking about Zarus? He's a supposed human creator, and also the god of a very evil thing (Racial supremecy).
Apocolypse_77 07-18-07, 08:52 PM	Are you sure you're not talking about Zarus? He's a supposed human creator, and also the god of a very evil thing (Racial supremecy). ah you are right, i didn't check before i posted. I just checked and i am mixing together the 2 human dieties Urbanus and zarus, zarus is the creator of humans and his portfolios are Humanity, domination and perfection. Of those domination would probably fall under the evil category so he does not fit the given subject. sorry for the mess up.
Hellsbells 07-18-07, 09:04 PM	An evil agricultural god could (as well as everything said above) could have a corrupte avenger style. He is ****** at humanoids (except his followers of course) cause they ruin nature, so he tries to destroy them. I also have an evil goddess of love in my campaign so figure that out. and by the way despite being evil her clerics can choose whether to channel negative or possitive energy.
Apocolypse_77 07-18-07, 09:18 PM	your topic peeked my interest and i have been searching my books and one i found that was close is Laduguer- the diety of the duergar. Lawful evil with portfolio's of Magic weapons, artisans, magic, and duergar. The only thing evil amoung those is the race, so he is really not a god of an evil subject beyond the race he created. Another more well known example is Vecna- who is neutral evil and has the portfolio of secrets and intrigue, which are not in themselves evil. besides those 2 i can't seem to find any other examples. But i will keep looking and should i find more will post.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 09:18 PM	I think that a deity that doesn't like humanoids altering the natural environment is unlikely to have agriculture as a portfolio.
Millennium 07-18-07, 09:35 PM	Deities and Demigods stats Hades out as LE, though it notes that he's not particularly malevolent. He is of course the god of death, but he is also the god of wealth. Evil nature gods have also been done before; perhaps the most popular is Malar from Forgotten Realms, who acts as a predator.
aushlo 07-18-07, 09:44 PM	Wicker Man? Children of the Corn, even.
oracle71 07-18-07, 10:03 PM	Gods of nature or the elements, much like druids, could easily be good, neutral, or evil depending on whether they represent nature as the "cradle of life" or as the "savagery of the hunt." Water quenches thirst and also drowns, fire destroys and also purifies, etc. A god of luck could be a benevolent jokester, or a malicious, sadistic prankster. There is nothing that says evil gods must represent inherently evil things, they just tend to gravitate towards them.
caeruleus 07-19-07, 12:41 AM	Deities and Demigods lists Sobek (in the Pharaonic pantheon) as LE, and his portfolio is water, river hazards, crocodiles, wetlands. River hazards may not be desirable, but they're hardly "evil". The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has Auril as NE, and her portfolio is cold and winter. Umberlee is listed as CE, and her portfolio is oceans, currents, waves, sea winds.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-19-07, 01:02 AM	Deities and Demigods lists Sobek (in the Pharaonic pantheon) as LE, and his portfolio is water, river hazards, crocodiles, wetlands. River hazards may not be desirable, but they're hardly "evil". The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has Auril as NE, and her portfolio is cold and winter. Umberlee is listed as CE, and her portfolio is oceans, currents, waves, sea winds. However, they're the evil manifestations of the things; Auril is the freezing, enroaching, bone-chilling cold that blights the land and makes it waste. Umberlee's all about the storms and giant city-crushing waves and stuff like that.
myusernameis 07-19-07, 01:12 AM	There's Azul in Sandstorm, he's a Lawful Evil deity of rain.
Return of the Flumph 07-19-07, 01:38 AM	Look at the Lords of Creation thread on the Campaign Workshop boards. There is an incredibly evil sky god in that.
navar100 07-19-07, 01:41 AM	An evil god of agriculture would probably work great. A group of adventurers enter a small village and the townspeople under the orders of the high priest attack the adventurers and try to burry them alive as sacrifices to the god so that they can have a better harvest than last year. "He who walks behind the Rows" - Children of the Corn
Return of the Flumph 07-19-07, 01:42 AM	"He who walks behind the Rows" - Children of the Corn I'm glad I'm not the only one who was reminded of that.
caeruleus 07-19-07, 02:35 AM	However, they're the evil manifestations of the things; Auril is the freezing, enroaching, bone-chilling cold that blights the land and makes it waste. Umberlee's all about the storms and giant city-crushing waves and stuff like that. What else would an evil deity be a manifestation of? The portfolios are not evil in themselves.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-19-07, 02:43 AM	All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off.
Apocolypse_77 07-19-07, 08:24 AM	All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off. umm Wee Jas is neutral. And she is a death god.
DwarfPcfan 07-19-07, 09:00 AM	All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off. Uh, Don't forget Osiris, god of the dead, the underworld and the Offering Fields, He's Lawful Good!
Millennium 07-19-07, 09:16 AM	I could also see the case for an Evil deity of love, actually. Such a being would be cruel and capricious, tangling people up in intricate networks of relationships where nobody escapes unharmed. It might particularly delight in holding out the promise of true love, yet ensuring that almost no one ever actually achieves it: just enough get through to ensure that the people don't get disillusioned.
caeruleus 07-19-07, 12:31 PM	All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off. umm Wee Jas is neutral. And she is a death god. Uh, Don't forget Osiris, god of the dead, the underworld and the Offering Fields, He's Lawful Good! Right, and Kelemvor of the Forgotten Realms in LN.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-19-07, 12:59 PM	Hm, you are right. Wee Jas is an exception. The others kinda don't count, because while they may have the portofolio of death, they do not have that domain, which imo makes them deific posers in that regard.
caeruleus 07-19-07, 02:27 PM	Hm, you are right. Wee Jas is an exception. The others kinda don't count, because while they may have the portofolio of death, they do not have that domain, which imo makes them deific posers in that regard. The FRCS gives Kelemvor the Death domain (although I realize that he is not listed as granting it in the PGtF). Osiris has the Repose domain, which is "similar to the Death domain in the Player's Handbook, but is granted by good-aligned deities whose clerics are barred from casting evil spells." (DDG, p. 215) It's specifically for deities of death who are not evil.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-19-07, 02:57 PM	Kelemvor does not have that domain in Faiths & Pantheons and that's where I looked. So the Repose domain is to the Death domain basically what Deathless are for Undead? I was not aware of that either. Shows what I know. :(
Hellsbells 07-19-07, 07:54 PM	Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-19-07, 08:55 PM	Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age. Anubis is LN. What else would an evil deity be a manifestation of? The portfolios are not evil in themselves. Yes, but in the case of Umberlee and Auril, there are other, greater gods whose portfolios consist solely of water and cold. They specifically are the gods of it's harsher aspects.
Millennium 07-19-07, 11:35 PM	Is Anubis evil? and dieties and demigods failed to mention one of my favorite norse creatures (godling?), Age. Anubis isn't Evil, but he's also more of a psychopomp than an actual god of the dead. That is to say, he guides the dead to the afterlife, much like Hermes does in Greek mythology, but he's not the lord of the dead: that job belongs to someone else.
Eco-Mono 07-20-07, 01:21 AM	Wicker Man?You took the bees right out of my mouth. ;)
ArcTan 07-20-07, 02:42 AM	All Death gods I am aware of are evil, including the mostly apathetic (when it comes to eating babies) Hades and Arawn. That should include Hel as well, but her portrayal is a bit off. The classic Greek Hades' evil-ness is highly questionable, and what there is is mainly due to the fact that the Greek gods were generally morally questionable by current standards of right and wrong. While Arawn definitely has a dark bent -- one heavily exploited in the fictionalized Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander -- a lot of this comes after the Christianizing of Welsh myth, and he's a far more neutral figure in the original pagan myth (as is the case with many pagan myths that got Christian influence, like the Eddic Norse gods).
ArcTan 07-20-07, 02:43 AM	Anubis isn't Evil, but he's also more of a psychopomp than an actual god of the dead. That is to say, he guides the dead to the afterlife, much like Hermes does in Greek mythology, but he's not the lord of the dead: that job belongs to someone else. Namely Osiris.
mmxbass 07-20-07, 02:51 AM	Not quite on topic but pertinent nonetheless: Evening Glory. Namely, a non-evil deity of undeath, something typically regarded as 'evil'.
Callista 07-20-07, 12:28 PM	...but she presides over the neutral/good aspects of undead...
mmxbass 07-20-07, 02:02 PM	That's sort of my point though. Most domains are not in themselves inherently good or evil. It's just people's default preconceptions of them.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-07, 02:06 PM	The classic Greek Hades' evil-ness is highly questionable, and what there is is mainly due to the fact that the Greek gods were generally morally questionable by current standards of right and wrong. While Arawn definitely has a dark bent -- one heavily exploited in the fictionalized Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander -- a lot of this comes after the Christianizing of Welsh myth, and he's a far more neutral figure in the original pagan myth (as is the case with many pagan myths that got Christian influence, like the Eddic Norse gods). Oh, I certainly agree with you and I think that Hel, too, suffers from christianization and demonization which twist her into an evilness she wasn't supposed to have. But now that I am aware of what the Repose domain is, I think I understand that Hades, Arawn and Hel are gods of icky death, while, say, Sehanine Moonbow is a goddess of squeaky clean death. And icky is evil in DnD, so they are too. ...but she presides over the neutral/good aspects of undead... Do you see this can of worms? It's now open again. :eek:
Lobsopdoy 07-20-07, 04:59 PM	Oh, I certainly agree with you and I think that Hel, too, suffers from christianization and demonization which twist her into an evilness she wasn't supposed to have. But now that I am aware of what the Repose domain is, I think I understand that Hades, Arawn and Hel are gods of icky death, while, say, Sehanine Moonbow is a goddess of squeaky clean death. And icky is evil in DnD, so they are too. Do you see this can of worms? It's now open again. :eek: I object to saying that Hades was a god of "icky" death. In Greek mythology, there is no icky death or clean death, just death as a cold immovable fact of life. It doesn't matter if you died choking on your own feces or died saving orphans from a fire, you're going to be just as dead and are going to the same place unless the gods feel like putting you in Elysium. And how many people go there? A couple dozen maybe? No, there is only death as the end. Hades is Neutral, he does his job because someone has to, and he could really care less what mortals thought of him. Hel on the other hand is a goddess of icky death from the viewpoint of the Norse. Basically, if you don't die in battle, you spend eternity freezing cold until Ragnorok, then you get to ride a ship made out of toenails and taste oblivion. She is evil because she's on the side of evil. None of the gods are really that "good", Thor is the closest I can think of to being heroic. But the fact is that they are less evil then Loki and Hel. So that's my thought on icky and clean deaths. Takes cover
ArcTan 07-21-07, 06:11 AM	I object to saying that Hades was a god of "icky" death. In Greek mythology, there is no icky death or clean death, just death as a cold immovable fact of life. It doesn't matter if you died choking on your own feces or died saving orphans from a fire, you're going to be just as dead and are going to the same place unless the gods feel like putting you in Elysium. And how many people go there? A couple dozen maybe? No, there is only death as the end. Hades is Neutral, he does his job because someone has to, and he could really care less what mortals thought of him. Hel on the other hand is a goddess of icky death from the viewpoint of the Norse. Basically, if you don't die in battle, you spend eternity freezing cold until Ragnorok, then you get to ride a ship made out of toenails and taste oblivion. She is evil because she's on the side of evil. None of the gods are really that "good", Thor is the closest I can think of to being heroic. But the fact is that they are less evil then Loki and Hel. Thor? Thor is an ass. Thor is the same oafish brute in the myths that Ares is in Greek myth. Are you confusing Thor with Tyr? FWIW, I never really considered the Norse gods as a whole to be unheroic -- they're just heroic in a much more bitter, harsh "Do what must be done" way than those of us used to a Christianized mythology might like. So that's my thought on icky and clean deaths. Takes cover Enh. Basically, D&D cosmologies are embedded in icky-vs-clean for their iconography and mythology, and therefore for D&D purposes it is legitimate to say that you want to repurpose Hades as a more unequivocally bad god (as has already been done in countless modern retellings of the stories). Stories evolve, change for new purposes, the Hades you read about in Bulfinch had already been repurposed for a dozen different things from whatever he was back in the pre-mythology before writing and the Greek civilization, etc.
Lobsopdoy 07-21-07, 03:56 PM	Thor? Thor is an ass. Thor is the same oafish brute in the myths that Ares is in Greek myth. Are you confusing Thor with Tyr? FWIW, I never really considered the Norse gods as a whole to be unheroic -- they're just heroic in a much more bitter, harsh "Do what must be done" way than those of us used to a Christianized mythology might like. Enh. Basically, D&D cosmologies are embedded in icky-vs-clean for their iconography and mythology, and therefore for D&D purposes it is legitimate to say that you want to repurpose Hades as a more unequivocally bad god (as has already been done in countless modern retellings of the stories). Stories evolve, change for new purposes, the Hades you read about in Bulfinch had already been repurposed for a dozen different things from whatever he was back in the pre-mythology before writing and the Greek civilization, etc. Sorry, I was speaking of Hades as he was portrayed in Greek mythology, not necessarily the D&D universe. It's just an example of a diety of something that is often considered evil that isn't necessarily evil. As for the Norse gods, they are heroic, but I don't think that they're good. Tyr doesn't do much except get his hand bitten off by Fenrir, which admittedly took a lot of balls to do. Odin, for example, has people sacrificed to him, betrays people when he feels like it (Except when it would break some kind of honor code, such as taking in travellers), stuff like that.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-21-07, 05:27 PM	Wicker Man? "I hope your frickin' apple pie was worth it!" [/Supernatural reference]
Hellsbells 07-21-07, 09:56 PM	I personally believe that an update should be made to Dieties and demigods, in a couple of books one for each pantheon introduced in the original. I think a lot more justice can be done to Hel and her realm. As for people sacrificing stuff to odin, one of the greatest honors was to suicidly hang your self in the name of odin, so yah The norce gods are honorabe, horoic, but not actually good, they are get it done, do what must be done gods.
Lobsopdoy 07-22-07, 12:23 AM	I can agree with that