Asgardian Cosmology [Archive] - Wizards Community

Asgardian Cosmology [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shar_the_Black
04-08-07, 09:39 AM I'm planning on running a Norse mythology based campaign sometime in the near future, however, I'm having trouble mapping out the planes and all.

According to Deities and Demigods, all planes of extistance are connected to Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Midgard is the material plane and in it are te lands of Mannheim, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim. Midgard his connected to Asgard, and Niflheim is the asgardian version of Hell/Hades/Underworld.
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Now, I'm not a mythology buff, but I was under the impression that Muspelheim, realm of the fire giants was "South" if you will, and Niflheim, a cold and desolate land was in the "North". Both "planes" existed between a large gap in space. In that gap, the frost of Niflheim and the fires of Muspelheim came together and created a massive frost giant which Odin and his kin killed and made Midgard, filling in the gap between both elemental lands.

I also thought that the other planes of existance, Jotunheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim were other worlds connected linked together by the roots of the World Tree. And that the asgardian version of Hades was called Hel, and had its own domain.

So, my question is, are most of the realms Connected on one material plane, or are they all seperate planes held together by the world tree? (I originally thought that they were sperate planes, but the Deities and Demigods book sorta lumps them together.)

And, his Hel its own plane, or is it part of Niflheim?

Any help on this would be appreciated :D
Patera_Quetzal
04-08-07, 12:15 PM Hey Shar, I don't have an answer for you, but if you're planning a campaign involving Norse cosmology, I want to strongly recommend a book by Gene Wolfe called The Wizard Knight (in two volumes: The Knight, and The Wizard). You'll have to look beyond the pulp-fantasy appearance of the covers. All the planes are there, with the story of their genesis, and descriptions of them and their inhabitants, and travel between them, all of which would be very inspirational for a Norse campaign setting. It's pastiche: it's Norse, it's knights, it's pulp sword-and-sorcery, yet somehow it's still original.

In the interest of being more directly helpful:

In Wolfe's Norse cosmology, which may be heavily influenced by Christian cosmology, the realms, from highest to lowest, are:

Elysion
Kleos
Skai
Mythgarthr
Aelfrice
Muspel
Niflheim

And one Wikipedia article says that Hel is different from Niflheim, while another says that Hel is in Niflheim. Apparently the sources themselves were not entirely clear or consistent. I would recommend doing what Wolfe does, and interpreting Norse cosmology in a way that fits your own campaign's ethos.
unfortunate_crow
04-08-07, 12:46 PM This should clear things up for you.

http://conclave.ru/ipsum/yggdrasil.gif
Shar_the_Black
04-08-07, 12:59 PM Thanks Patera_Quetzal, I also looked around on Wikipedia and found a few conflicting facts here and there.

Well, I figure I'll do this....

All planes of extistance will be connected to Yggdrasil, the World Tree.

Midgard is the entire material plane it will be composed of the lands of Mannheim (Realm of the humans), Jotunheim (Land of the giants), Nidavellir (Dwarven Lands), and Svartalfheim (Dark elves, at least according to mythology).

The material plane will be connected to Asgard by Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge.

Niflheim (Home of Frost Giants) and Muspelheim (Home of the Fire Giants) will both be on the material plane of Midgard, but located far, far, to the north and south. And Hel will be seperate from Niflheim, being its own realm located in its own plane of existance further under Midgard.

I think that's how it'll go, hopefull it doesn't screw the real mythology up too, too bad. Anyone else have any ideas??
Patera_Quetzal
04-08-07, 01:24 PM If Niflheim and Muspelheim are both in Midgard, I would put Jotunheim on another plane. Also, the east-west axis is important in Wolfe's novel; do you have plans for that?
zuul88
04-08-07, 02:09 PM Hel is the Ruler of the underworld. She is Loki's Daughter. The term "go to Hel" is not a place but a being. The fire and ice planes are east and west(side by side) What about the world serpent, Loki's son, that wraps around everything? Where are the norns? Try going to a norse mythology site not wikipedia.

Respect
Nathan
Shar_the_Black
04-08-07, 11:10 PM Well, I was informed that Hel is both the name of one of Loki's Monsterous children as well as the name of her domain. Midgard wasn't a round surface, rather it was flat, one landmass if you will surrounded by water, so the world serpent more or less encircles the world. The Norns live on another plane, setting forth the destiny of mortals.

I hope that answers your questions, zuul88
Shar_the_Black
04-08-07, 11:14 PM Oh and, unfortunate_crow, not to sound rude or unwelcoming of new information, but that picture doesn't really help me at all. There isn't a legend or names of anything in that map. But thanks for the input anyhow.
Bob the Efreet
04-08-07, 11:19 PM Midgard is the material plane and in it are the lands of Mannheim, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim.

Wow, no. I'd interpret them all as separate planes, connected by Yggdrasil, the world ash.
skio
04-09-07, 06:54 AM You have to keep in mind that myths came into many variations, so contradictions are expected. You have to make choices on your own about which version of the myth you will employ.

Hel was indeed the goddess of the dead, daughter of Loki, but also the name of her realm (also Helheim=kingdom of Hel). It can be found in different versions as a part of Niflheim, as a different name of Niflheim or less often as a completely different plane. I would personally go with the first version.

The Norse cosmology in the most popular version consisted 3 'levels' (planes), divided into 9 'worlds' (layers):

1. The Heavens, divided into:
a. Asgard ('yard of the Aesir'), realm of the Aesir, main pantheon of the Norse
b. Vanaheim ('kingdom of the Vanir'), realm of the Vanir, secondary pantheon of the Norse
c. Alfheim, realm of the light elves ('Liosalfar'), equivalents of angels in Norse mythology

2. Midgard ('middle yard'), the material world, divided into:
a. Manheim, land of the humans (Scandinavia)
b. Jotunheim, land of the giants ('Jotun'), on the North of Manheim (possibly the pole)
c. Nidavillir, subterranean land of the dwarves ('Dvergars'*)
d. Svartalheim, subterranean land of the dark elves ('Svartalfar')

3. The Underworld, divided into:
a: Niflheim ('land of winter' IIRC), realm of Hel and the dead
b: Muspellheim, land of the fire giants ('Muspilli')

I cannot recall where the frost giants ('Rhymerthusses') resided, but I think the lived in Jotunheim.

* The norse dwarves where sly and malevolent beings on which the duergars of DnD were based. The typical fantasy dwarf is a Tolkien creation. Some equated the dvergar with the svartalfar.
Shar_the_Black
04-09-07, 04:52 PM Wow, thanks a lot Skio for all the info, that cleared quite a bit up. But it does lead me to a new question though, how hard would it be for mortals to access the other worlds?

I know the only way to the heavens would be going up Bifrost (or dying), and that the brow of Ymir formed a formidable mountain range that seperated Mannheim and Jotunheim (So you'd have to survive crossing a mountain range). But how hard would it be if a group of humans try to go from Mannheim to say Nidavillir or Svartalheim? Would they be able to go underground?

I figure if both Niflheim and Muspellheim are considered distant from the material world, the only way to get there is through magic or through divine assistance.
Naderion
04-10-07, 09:16 AM This was really helpfull to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology
ripvanwormer
04-10-07, 01:41 PM This was really helpfull to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology

Actually, earlier edits of that article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norse_cosmology&diff=prev&oldid=38343317) are a lot more useful. Later editors took out the diagrams and things because they weren't strictly based on the sagas, but for a game, who cares? The older versions were more interesting to look at and would be more interesting to play in.
Gemstone
04-11-07, 03:38 AM There are nine worlds in the norse mythology.

Godheim (split into Vannheim and Asgard)
Mannheim (the various worlds of men, including Midgard, mankinds strongest fortress)
Muspelheim (the fiery home of the fire giants)
Nifelheim (split into Hel and Nifelheim)
Alfheim (the home of the elves)
Svartalfheim (the home of the dwarves)
Jotunheim (the land of giants)

These are the basic worlds, and those are in kind split into various other worlds and such. Mannheim for exampe, which include midgard, are but one of the many worlds of men. If you choose to interprent these worlds as "lands", such as "scandinavia" being Midgard and "Turkey" to be Miklagard, then you have one world :)
Millennium
04-11-07, 10:11 AM Now, I'm not a mythology buff, but I was under the impression that Muspelheim, realm of the fire giants was "South" if you will, and Niflheim, a cold and desolate land was in the "North". Both "planes" existed between a large gap in space. In that gap, the frost of Niflheim and the fires of Muspelheim came together and created a massive frost giant which Odin and his kin killed and made Midgard, filling in the gap between both elemental lands.
If you want to keep the South/North thing, then you might consider making Muspelheim and Niflheim coterminous with Mannheim. The points of contact could be long borders in the South and North respectively, such that you can cross them simply by walking. This would give you the ability to work them out as standard planes, while at the same time preserving the idea that they're locations that you could, in theory, get to from the Material Plane. You can then control how difficult it is to get to these lands by setting up the terrain accordingly: forbidding mountain ranges or simple steppes, as you desire.

The 3e Spelljammer folks do something similar to this, in that they make space its own plane coterminous with the Material Plane. The contact point is the edge of the atmosphere, and you cross it just by flying.
FWHGilby
04-12-07, 02:03 PM Interesting thread. Norse mythology is my favorite, but does anyone, anyone at all have any information on the beginnings of Vanaheim and the Vanir? I've read a book on the beginning creation of the Norse gods, the giants, but I can't say I've ever found anything on Vanir and Vanaheim. Their creation seems to be an enigma of sorts.
Old Sparky
04-14-07, 01:36 PM Wow, thanks a lot Skio for all the info, that cleared quite a bit up. But it does lead me to a new question though, how hard would it be for mortals to access the other worlds?

I know the only way to the heavens would be going up Bifrost (or dying), and that the brow of Ymir formed a formidable mountain range that seperated Mannheim and Jotunheim (So you'd have to survive crossing a mountain range). But how hard would it be if a group of humans try to go from Mannheim to say Nidavillir or Svartalheim? Would they be able to go underground?

I figure if both Niflheim and Muspellheim are considered distant from the material world, the only way to get there is through magic or through divine assistance.

Remember, the World Tree connects all the nine worlds. Travelling between these different realms is only as difficult as finding the tree, climbing & navigating it's branches, and surviving encounters along the way. A Knowledge (planes) check should be required to find your way.
ripvanwormer
04-14-07, 02:58 PM Interesting thread. Norse mythology is my favorite, but does anyone, anyone at all have any information on the beginnings of Vanaheim and the Vanir? I've read a book on the beginning creation of the Norse gods, the giants, but I can't say I've ever found anything on Vanir and Vanaheim. Their creation seems to be an enigma of sorts.

Yeah, it is.

I constructed a theory based on the sources I've found:

Norvi, a jotun, was the father of Nott, personification of night, and the Norns Urd, Skuld, and Verdandi.

Nott had three husbands. Her first husband was Naglfari. With Naglfari she had a son, Aud, a lesser god of night. Her second husband was Annar, first king of the light-elves. By Annar she birthed the Vanir: Jord and Njord, Hertha, Bertha and Holda, Fjorgynn, Gullveig, Gróa, and Sif. She taught her daughters, especially, many secrets of witchcraft that would serve them well in later years. Nott's third husband was another light-elf, Dellinger the Guardian (god of twilight), and their son is Dagr, personification of the day.

From Annar the Vanir would ultimately inherit kingship over the Liosalfar; when Njord rejected the office (or the elves rejected Njord), the kingship would pass to Freyr, given to him as his birth-gift.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shar_the_Black 04-08-07, 09:39 AM	I'm planning on running a Norse mythology based campaign sometime in the near future, however, I'm having trouble mapping out the planes and all. According to Deities and Demigods, all planes of extistance are connected to Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Midgard is the material plane and in it are te lands of Mannheim, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim. Midgard his connected to Asgard, and Niflheim is the asgardian version of Hell/Hades/Underworld. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, I'm not a mythology buff, but I was under the impression that Muspelheim, realm of the fire giants was "South" if you will, and Niflheim, a cold and desolate land was in the "North". Both "planes" existed between a large gap in space. In that gap, the frost of Niflheim and the fires of Muspelheim came together and created a massive frost giant which Odin and his kin killed and made Midgard, filling in the gap between both elemental lands. I also thought that the other planes of existance, Jotunheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim were other worlds connected linked together by the roots of the World Tree. And that the asgardian version of Hades was called Hel, and had its own domain. So, my question is, are most of the realms Connected on one material plane, or are they all seperate planes held together by the world tree? (I originally thought that they were sperate planes, but the Deities and Demigods book sorta lumps them together.) And, his Hel its own plane, or is it part of Niflheim? Any help on this would be appreciated :D
Patera_Quetzal 04-08-07, 12:15 PM	Hey Shar, I don't have an answer for you, but if you're planning a campaign involving Norse cosmology, I want to strongly recommend a book by Gene Wolfe called The Wizard Knight (in two volumes: The Knight, and The Wizard). You'll have to look beyond the pulp-fantasy appearance of the covers. All the planes are there, with the story of their genesis, and descriptions of them and their inhabitants, and travel between them, all of which would be very inspirational for a Norse campaign setting. It's pastiche: it's Norse, it's knights, it's pulp sword-and-sorcery, yet somehow it's still original. In the interest of being more directly helpful: In Wolfe's Norse cosmology, which may be heavily influenced by Christian cosmology, the realms, from highest to lowest, are: Elysion Kleos Skai Mythgarthr Aelfrice Muspel Niflheim And one Wikipedia article says that Hel is different from Niflheim, while another says that Hel is in Niflheim. Apparently the sources themselves were not entirely clear or consistent. I would recommend doing what Wolfe does, and interpreting Norse cosmology in a way that fits your own campaign's ethos.
unfortunate_crow 04-08-07, 12:46 PM	This should clear things up for you. http://conclave.ru/ipsum/yggdrasil.gif
Shar_the_Black 04-08-07, 12:59 PM	Thanks Patera_Quetzal, I also looked around on Wikipedia and found a few conflicting facts here and there. Well, I figure I'll do this.... All planes of extistance will be connected to Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Midgard is the entire material plane it will be composed of the lands of Mannheim (Realm of the humans), Jotunheim (Land of the giants), Nidavellir (Dwarven Lands), and Svartalfheim (Dark elves, at least according to mythology). The material plane will be connected to Asgard by Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge. Niflheim (Home of Frost Giants) and Muspelheim (Home of the Fire Giants) will both be on the material plane of Midgard, but located far, far, to the north and south. And Hel will be seperate from Niflheim, being its own realm located in its own plane of existance further under Midgard. I think that's how it'll go, hopefull it doesn't screw the real mythology up too, too bad. Anyone else have any ideas??
Patera_Quetzal 04-08-07, 01:24 PM	If Niflheim and Muspelheim are both in Midgard, I would put Jotunheim on another plane. Also, the east-west axis is important in Wolfe's novel; do you have plans for that?
zuul88 04-08-07, 02:09 PM	Hel is the Ruler of the underworld. She is Loki's Daughter. The term "go to Hel" is not a place but a being. The fire and ice planes are east and west(side by side) What about the world serpent, Loki's son, that wraps around everything? Where are the norns? Try going to a norse mythology site not wikipedia. Respect Nathan
Shar_the_Black 04-08-07, 11:10 PM	Well, I was informed that Hel is both the name of one of Loki's Monsterous children as well as the name of her domain. Midgard wasn't a round surface, rather it was flat, one landmass if you will surrounded by water, so the world serpent more or less encircles the world. The Norns live on another plane, setting forth the destiny of mortals. I hope that answers your questions, zuul88
Shar_the_Black 04-08-07, 11:14 PM	Oh and, unfortunate_crow, not to sound rude or unwelcoming of new information, but that picture doesn't really help me at all. There isn't a legend or names of anything in that map. But thanks for the input anyhow.
Bob the Efreet 04-08-07, 11:19 PM	Midgard is the material plane and in it are the lands of Mannheim, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfheim. Wow, no. I'd interpret them all as separate planes, connected by Yggdrasil, the world ash.
skio 04-09-07, 06:54 AM	You have to keep in mind that myths came into many variations, so contradictions are expected. You have to make choices on your own about which version of the myth you will employ. Hel was indeed the goddess of the dead, daughter of Loki, but also the name of her realm (also Helheim=kingdom of Hel). It can be found in different versions as a part of Niflheim, as a different name of Niflheim or less often as a completely different plane. I would personally go with the first version. The Norse cosmology in the most popular version consisted 3 'levels' (planes), divided into 9 'worlds' (layers): 1. The Heavens, divided into: a. Asgard ('yard of the Aesir'), realm of the Aesir, main pantheon of the Norse b. Vanaheim ('kingdom of the Vanir'), realm of the Vanir, secondary pantheon of the Norse c. Alfheim, realm of the light elves ('Liosalfar'), equivalents of angels in Norse mythology 2. Midgard ('middle yard'), the material world, divided into: a. Manheim, land of the humans (Scandinavia) b. Jotunheim, land of the giants ('Jotun'), on the North of Manheim (possibly the pole) c. Nidavillir, subterranean land of the dwarves ('Dvergars') d. Svartalheim, subterranean land of the dark elves ('Svartalfar') 3. The Underworld, divided into: a: Niflheim ('land of winter' IIRC), realm of Hel and the dead b: Muspellheim, land of the fire giants ('Muspilli') I cannot recall where the frost giants ('Rhymerthusses') resided, but I think the lived in Jotunheim. The norse dwarves where sly and malevolent beings on which the duergars of DnD were based. The typical fantasy dwarf is a Tolkien creation. Some equated the dvergar with the svartalfar.
Shar_the_Black 04-09-07, 04:52 PM	Wow, thanks a lot Skio for all the info, that cleared quite a bit up. But it does lead me to a new question though, how hard would it be for mortals to access the other worlds? I know the only way to the heavens would be going up Bifrost (or dying), and that the brow of Ymir formed a formidable mountain range that seperated Mannheim and Jotunheim (So you'd have to survive crossing a mountain range). But how hard would it be if a group of humans try to go from Mannheim to say Nidavillir or Svartalheim? Would they be able to go underground? I figure if both Niflheim and Muspellheim are considered distant from the material world, the only way to get there is through magic or through divine assistance.
Naderion 04-10-07, 09:16 AM	This was really helpfull to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology
ripvanwormer 04-10-07, 01:41 PM	This was really helpfull to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology Actually, earlier edits of that article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norse_cosmology&diff=prev&oldid=38343317) are a lot more useful. Later editors took out the diagrams and things because they weren't strictly based on the sagas, but for a game, who cares? The older versions were more interesting to look at and would be more interesting to play in.
Gemstone 04-11-07, 03:38 AM	There are nine worlds in the norse mythology. Godheim (split into Vannheim and Asgard) Mannheim (the various worlds of men, including Midgard, mankinds strongest fortress) Muspelheim (the fiery home of the fire giants) Nifelheim (split into Hel and Nifelheim) Alfheim (the home of the elves) Svartalfheim (the home of the dwarves) Jotunheim (the land of giants) These are the basic worlds, and those are in kind split into various other worlds and such. Mannheim for exampe, which include midgard, are but one of the many worlds of men. If you choose to interprent these worlds as "lands", such as "scandinavia" being Midgard and "Turkey" to be Miklagard, then you have one world :)
Millennium 04-11-07, 10:11 AM	Now, I'm not a mythology buff, but I was under the impression that Muspelheim, realm of the fire giants was "South" if you will, and Niflheim, a cold and desolate land was in the "North". Both "planes" existed between a large gap in space. In that gap, the frost of Niflheim and the fires of Muspelheim came together and created a massive frost giant which Odin and his kin killed and made Midgard, filling in the gap between both elemental lands. If you want to keep the South/North thing, then you might consider making Muspelheim and Niflheim coterminous with Mannheim. The points of contact could be long borders in the South and North respectively, such that you can cross them simply by walking. This would give you the ability to work them out as standard planes, while at the same time preserving the idea that they're locations that you could, in theory, get to from the Material Plane. You can then control how difficult it is to get to these lands by setting up the terrain accordingly: forbidding mountain ranges or simple steppes, as you desire. The 3e Spelljammer folks do something similar to this, in that they make space its own plane coterminous with the Material Plane. The contact point is the edge of the atmosphere, and you cross it just by flying.
FWHGilby 04-12-07, 02:03 PM	Interesting thread. Norse mythology is my favorite, but does anyone, anyone at all have any information on the beginnings of Vanaheim and the Vanir? I've read a book on the beginning creation of the Norse gods, the giants, but I can't say I've ever found anything on Vanir and Vanaheim. Their creation seems to be an enigma of sorts.
Old Sparky 04-14-07, 01:36 PM	Wow, thanks a lot Skio for all the info, that cleared quite a bit up. But it does lead me to a new question though, how hard would it be for mortals to access the other worlds? I know the only way to the heavens would be going up Bifrost (or dying), and that the brow of Ymir formed a formidable mountain range that seperated Mannheim and Jotunheim (So you'd have to survive crossing a mountain range). But how hard would it be if a group of humans try to go from Mannheim to say Nidavillir or Svartalheim? Would they be able to go underground? I figure if both Niflheim and Muspellheim are considered distant from the material world, the only way to get there is through magic or through divine assistance. Remember, the World Tree connects all the nine worlds. Travelling between these different realms is only as difficult as finding the tree, climbing & navigating it's branches, and surviving encounters along the way. A Knowledge (planes) check should be required to find your way.
ripvanwormer 04-14-07, 02:58 PM	Interesting thread. Norse mythology is my favorite, but does anyone, anyone at all have any information on the beginnings of Vanaheim and the Vanir? I've read a book on the beginning creation of the Norse gods, the giants, but I can't say I've ever found anything on Vanir and Vanaheim. Their creation seems to be an enigma of sorts. Yeah, it is. I constructed a theory based on the sources I've found: Norvi, a jotun, was the father of Nott, personification of night, and the Norns Urd, Skuld, and Verdandi. Nott had three husbands. Her first husband was Naglfari. With Naglfari she had a son, Aud, a lesser god of night. Her second husband was Annar, first king of the light-elves. By Annar she birthed the Vanir: Jord and Njord, Hertha, Bertha and Holda, Fjorgynn, Gullveig, Gróa, and Sif. She taught her daughters, especially, many secrets of witchcraft that would serve them well in later years. Nott's third husband was another light-elf, Dellinger the Guardian (god of twilight), and their son is Dagr, personification of the day. From Annar the Vanir would ultimately inherit kingship over the Liosalfar; when Njord rejected the office (or the elves rejected Njord), the kingship would pass to Freyr, given to him as his birth-gift.