Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 12-05-07, 12:42 PM	OK, I've gone on a bit of a Narnia spree, statting up a lot of the major figures. I already did Marshwiggles as a playable race, and here's Aslan as a deity! Aslan The Great Lion, The King of the Wood Greater Deity Symbol: A golden, roaring lion head Home Plane: The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia Alignment: Lawful Good Portfolio: Compassion, kindness, platonic love, good, righteousness Worshipers: Any good creatures Cleric Alignments: Any Good Domains: Law, Good, Healing, Sun, Animal Favored Weapon: Claw Large Magical Beast Divine Rank: 20 20d8+20d10+400 (760 HP) Initiative:+14, always first (+10 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative, Supreme Initiative) BAB/Grapple: +40/+49 Speed: 120 feet AC: 83 (+33 Natural, +20 Deflection, +20 Divine) Touch 50 Attack: Claw +45 melee (1d8+5) Full Attack: 2 claws +45 melee (1d8+5) and Bite +40 Melee (2d6+2) Space/Reach: 10/10 Special Attacks: Special Qualities: DR 30/epic; SR 52; Fire resistance 25; Immune to transmutation; immune to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; immune to electricity; immune to cold; immune to acid; immune to disease; immune to poison; immune to stunning; immune to sleep; immune to paralysis; immune to death effects; immune to banishing effects; Fast Healing 40 Saves: Fort +52, Ref +49, Will +49 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 30, Con 31, Int 32, Wis 32, Cha 50 Skills: Feats: Improved Natural Attack (Claw and Bite), Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Salient Divine Abilities: Extra Domain (Sun and Healing), Alter Reality, Create Object, Create Greater Object, Divine Creation, Divine Shield, Area Divine Shield, Speak with Creatures, Power of Nature, Mind of the Beast, Divine Fast Healing, Rejuvenation, Supreme Initiative, Divine Dodge, Divine Blessing (Cha), Alter Form, Alter Size, Shapechange, True Shapechange Quick question, how many Domains can a deity choose from on it's own, before it has to take the Extra Domain Salient Divine Ability?
Starmage21 12-05-07, 01:20 PM	OK, I've gone on a bit of a Narnia spree, statting up a lot of the major figures. I already did Marshwiggles as a playable race, and here's Aslan as a deity! Aslan The Great Lion, The King of the Wood Greater Deity Symbol: A golden, roaring lion head Home Plane: The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia Alignment: Lawful Good Portfolio: Compassion, kindness, platonic love, good, righteousness Worshipers: Any good creatures Cleric Alignments: Any Good Domains: Law, Good, Healing, Sun, Animal Favored Weapon: Claw Large Magical Beast Divine Rank: 20 20d8+20d10+400 (760 HP) Initiative:+14, always first (+10 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative, Supreme Initiative) BAB/Grapple: +40/+49 Speed: 120 feet AC: 83 (+33 Natural, +20 Deflection, +20 Divine) Touch 50 Attack: Claw +45 melee (1d8+5) Full Attack: 2 claws +45 melee (1d8+5) and Bite +40 Melee (2d6+2) Space/Reach: 10/10 Special Attacks: Special Qualities: DR 30/epic; SR 52; Fire resistance 25; Immune to transmutation; immune to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; immune to electricity; immune to cold; immune to acid; immune to disease; immune to poison; immune to stunning; immune to sleep; immune to paralysis; immune to death effects; immune to banishing effects Saves: Fort +52, Ref +49, Will +49 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 30, Con 31, Int 32, Wis 32, Cha 50 Skills: Feats: Improved Natural Attack (Claw and Bite), Power Attack, Quick question, how many Domains can a deity choose from on it's own, before it has to take the Extra Domain Salient Divine Ability? according to D&DG a diety gets to have/offer 3 domains, and must have Extra Domain to have/offer more than that.
The Ubbergeek 12-05-07, 03:19 PM	Aslan exist already, albeit in a modified shape; Nobianon (?) of the Forgotten Realms setting. Like for Illmater (Isek of the Jug), Greenwood took inspriation for his gods around, including novels...
Kain_Darkwind 12-05-07, 07:01 PM	Aslan shouldn't be DvR 20. According to the novels, he was the son of the emperor across the sea, who was his superior. I'd put him as a demigod, and under 40HD. He died from a single coup de grace. Deities can choose 3 domains and then must get Extra Domain, however, plenty of statted deities were later given extra domains and presumably their stats didn't change. I'd give any deity 3 core domains and perhaps 3 non-core ones for free before charging them.
Tovec 12-05-07, 09:07 PM	If the emperor across the sea is his better they could be DR 20+. Aslan created the entire world and depending on the interpretation the entire reality (reality in a reality in a reality). He could fit as a divine rank 20 especially with this note attached. He died by a ritual coup de grace. He voluntarily failed his fortitude save. Any creature with any number of HD can fail a fortitude save if they choose to do so. Also included with Aslan should Tash, god of the underworld (I think.) Tash still respected Aslan's power and didn't seek to subvert him so I would be careful. I wouldn't say Aslan is LG, I would categorize him as NG. He isn't a tame lion after all. He would show up during succession problems or issues concerning the Kingdom of Narnia almost exclusively.
Aleolus 12-05-07, 09:43 PM	Tash will be coming, soon. He would be more a Divine Rank 16 or so, I think. And the reason I put Aslan as LG is because he always does the right thing, even if doing so causes pain at the time. And being LG hardly implies tameness. Because, yes, he is not a tame lion. He shows up when Narnia has need of him. However he usually does not display his presence openly, acting from the background.
sciborg3 12-05-07, 11:53 PM	And the reason I put Aslan as LG is because he always does the right thing, even if doing so causes pain at the time. Not to be annoying, but CG always does the right thing from its perspective. I would think Aslan is LG because he acts in accordance with laws that even call for his death (though of course this law also allows for his resurrection).
Aleolus 12-06-07, 01:10 AM	Right, right, that's what I meant. Mind is pretty fried right now, not thinking too well. Sorry.
Space_Dragon 12-06-07, 08:28 PM	I think Aslan was speaking on his father's behalf when he talked about creating the world. I could be wrong, that's just how I read it. I'd peg Aslan as Lesser to Intermediate, with Tash being a few ranks below him.
Kain_Darkwind 12-06-07, 09:41 PM	I think Aslan was speaking on his father's behalf when he talked about creating the world. I could be wrong, that's just how I read it. I'd peg Aslan as Lesser to Intermediate, with Tash being a few ranks below him. No, Aslan sang it into being in Book 6, the Magician's Nephew. I still think he's low (30) HD demi-lesser though.
Tovec 12-06-07, 10:48 PM	I was saying Aslan as NG as I think Tash would be NE but be whatever alignment you think works best. Aslan definitely seems more NG as in Guardinals then LG warrior types and whatnot. Aslan is the god of all good creatures (NG not LG) and is the opposite of all evil ones. "Anyone who does good worships me if they know it or not" (a rough quote from the final book in the series) is what Aslan says to a Good worshipper of Tash. I have been reading the first (chronologically) in the series of the Narnia books. Aslan created the world out of nothing. He sang and things appeared. He changed his tune and animals appeared. A bolt of fire from the sky or from him makes some animals able to speak. All of these things add up to Greater Deity in my mind. Greater Deities create (or destroy) in large scales. Explain what is larger then the world. As his father would be beyond imagination (we never hear of any kind of form that the father could take) I would still go with a slightly variant view of Overdeity. I am interested in how you are going to run Aslan? I mean having stats and whatnot are all well and good but I'm more interested in your applications.
ArcTan 12-06-07, 11:25 PM	Aslan shouldn't be DvR 20. According to the novels, he was the son of the emperor across the sea, who was his superior. Aslan = Jesus. Emperor-Across-the-Sea = God the Father. From a C.S. Lewis-Christian perspective, Aslan is the DvR 20 Greater Deity and the Emperor-Across-the-Sea is the Overdeity. Aslan *created Narnia*, remember, as well as *all* the worlds (including our own world). The Emperor, like God the Father, exists in some nebulous way outside all creation ("across the sea") and is the reason for everything happening, but the only way to interact with the Emperor is through Aslan. I'd put him as a demigod, and under 40HD. He died from a single coup de grace. He died on purpose. He's Jesus. It is later on in the series made quite clear that Aslan never revealed even a small fraction of his true power in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (just like Jesus of Nazareth, the dude who wanders around healing people in the New Testament, reveals barely a fraction of the power of the Christian concept of the Son of God -- hence why Satan keeps taunting him as to why he doesn't just blow up everyone and leave when they attack him, etc.). Again: Aslan CREATED NARNIA. Aslan CREATED EARTH. Aslan later DESTROYS Narnia (in the apocalypse of The Last Battle).
ArcTan 12-06-07, 11:28 PM	No, Aslan sang it into being in Book 6, the Magician's Nephew. I still think he's low (30) HD demi-lesser though. Since when, in D&D terms, can a Demideity or Lesser Deity create a world? Since when can such a deity be the creator of *all* the worlds (in the Wood-Between-the-Worlds)? Since when can such a deity claim the worship of all Good beings everywhere (Aslan's conversation with Emeth in The Last Battle)? I mean, sheesh, C.S. Lewis was a monotheist -- a Christian -- and he specifically said that Aslan was his fantasy version of Jesus. Aslan is God (specifically, God the Son). Aslan is the creator of the entire universe and sovereign over all of it, including the world his enemy, the White Witch, comes from (Charn), and has power over everything. Aslan's Country, his realm, contains the ideal versions of every world in the multiverse (England, Narnia, etc.) It's really not at all subtle. Aslan is supposed to be God. End of story.
ArcTan 12-06-07, 11:29 PM	Aslan exist already, albeit in a modified shape; Nobianon (?) of the Forgotten Realms setting. I would say the closest thing to Aslan in D&D is that dude who's in charge of all the Guardinals and is himself the paragon of Neutral Good. I'm not a fan of the Guardinals or Elysium, though, so it's at best a weak comparison.
Kain_Darkwind 12-07-07, 01:57 AM	Aslan = Jesus. Emperor-Across-the-Sea = God the Father. From a C.S. Lewis-Christian perspective, Aslan is the DvR 20 Greater Deity and the Emperor-Across-the-Sea is the Overdeity. Aslan *created Narnia*, remember, as well as *all* the worlds (including our own world). The Emperor, like God the Father, exists in some nebulous way outside all creation ("across the sea") and is the reason for everything happening, but the only way to interact with the Emperor is through Aslan. As it so happens, I'm fully aware of the facts you mention and the metaphor for Christianity. I don't see how any of this 'proves' he is DvR 20, considering no deity by the rules is capable of making a world in the amount of time the Tanakh tells us G-D did. He died on purpose. He's Jesus. And I wouldn't put Jesus at 60 HD, nor DvR 20 either. Specifically, the man said that there were things He didn't know, that only His Father could reveal. That makes him not a greater future seeing god. It is later on in the series made quite clear that Aslan never revealed even a small fraction of his true power in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (just like Jesus of Nazareth, the dude who wanders around healing people in the New Testament, reveals barely a fraction of the power of the Christian concept of the Son of God -- hence why Satan keeps taunting him as to why he doesn't just blow up everyone and leave when they attack him, etc.). Again: Aslan CREATED NARNIA. Aslan CREATED EARTH. Aslan later DESTROYS Narnia (in the apocalypse of The Last Battle). I read the series. No need to yell. And the destruction of Narnia was not a divine blasting, mass life and death spamming affair. He called everyone through the door to the true Narnia and they came. Since when, in D&D terms, can a Demideity or Lesser Deity create a world? Since when can such a deity be the creator of *all* the worlds (in the Wood-Between-the-Worlds)? Since when can such a deity claim the worship of all Good beings everywhere (Aslan's conversation with Emeth in The Last Battle)? Since when can a greater deity do that? No greater deity fashioned the Planes, nor the Prime, nor even the prime worlds. I mean, sheesh, C.S. Lewis was a monotheist -- a Christian -- and he specifically said that Aslan was his fantasy version of Jesus. Aslan is God (specifically, God the Son). Aslan is the creator of the entire universe and sovereign over all of it, including the world his enemy, the White Witch, comes from (Charn), and has power over everything. Aslan's Country, his realm, contains the ideal versions of every world in the multiverse (England, Narnia, etc.) It's really not at all subtle. Aslan is supposed to be God. End of story. You say this like it changes my opinion. I know all of this. Lewis wished to present his faith of Christianity to children. And he did a good job of it. But seeing as how there exists no 'rules' for any deity to create a world, I fail to see how this strengthens a DvR 20 case over a DvR 3. Or 50 HD over 30.
Aleolus 12-07-07, 02:10 AM	And I wouldn't put Jesus at 60 HD, nor DvR 20 either. Specifically, the man said that there were things He didn't know, that only His Father could reveal. That makes him not a greater future seeing god. True, however that only applied to while He was on this earth. I'm fairly certain that, now that He has ascended to Heaven, he knows those events just as well as the Father does. Since when can a greater deity do that? No greater deity fashioned the Planes, nor the Prime, nor even the prime worlds. Well, there are Salient Divine abilities that allow Deities to make pretty much whatever they want, but most likely the planes and so forth were made by an Overdeity at some point. This actually argues that Aslan's DvR should be much higher than I put it as, however, D&DG specifically states that creatures with a DvR of 21 or higher are so far beyond the ken of mortal existence that they never interact with them, which Aslan does frequently.
Kain_Darkwind 12-07-07, 02:21 AM	True, however that only applied to while He was on this earth. I'm fairly certain that, now that He has ascended to Heaven, he knows those events just as well as the Father does. I'm not going to tell you you can't use your own homebrew. But I prefer RAW. ;) Well, there are Salient Divine abilities that allow Deities to make pretty much whatever they want, but most likely the planes and so forth were made by an Overdeity at some point. This actually argues that Aslan's DvR should be much higher than I put it as, however, D&DG specifically states that creatures with a DvR of 21 or higher are so far beyond the ken of mortal existence that they never interact with them, which Aslan does frequently. Actually, I think it means the exact opposite. SDAs should be created that allow a lower power to create a world if they so choose. You could raise Aslan's DvR to a billion and you still wouldn't have the ability to make a world. You create a DvR 1+ prereq SDA that lets you make a world, and a demigod lion can accomplish it.
Aleolus 12-07-07, 10:52 AM	OK, lets try to avoid getting into a theological debate, as I'm fairly certain that will only result in getting this thread locked. As for your point, Kain, about creating a SDA that can allow the creation of worlds, why would it only have a prereq of DvR 1+? The whole point of levels of deities is that the higher DvR beings have more power, and so can do things that the lower end creatures cannot. I would put it as something along these lines. Divine Beginnings Prerequisites: Divine Rank 16+, Alter Reality, Create Object, Create Greater Object, Divine Creation Benefit: The deity can create worlds and/or planes at their own desire. They choose all of the attributes they want to endow the created plane with, as well as which planes they want it connected to, and how easy it is to get into and out of. They also create all forms of plant and animal life within that plane that they desire, and choose what degree of intelligence to give them, as well as what powers they want them to have.
setekh 12-07-07, 04:43 PM	Actually, I think it means the exact opposite. SDAs should be created that allow a lower power to create a world if they so choose. You could raise Aslan's DvR to a billion and you still wouldn't have the ability to make a world. You create a DvR 1+ prereq SDA that lets you make a world, and a demigod lion can accomplish it. A 17th level human wizard can do it with Genesis. Jus' saying. :P ;) Off hand, where does it say that Aslan created all worlds? I don't remember seeing that, but on the other hand It's been years since I sat down and read all seven books.
ArcTan 12-07-07, 05:07 PM	Well, the main definition of DvR is who worships you and where you matter, not any particular abilities you have or don't have. Aslan is worshipped by beings all over the multiverse (given that he's the fantasy-lion form of Jesus and openly states that he manifests in different ways in every world) and matters to beings all over the multiverse. Indeed, every good creature in the entire multiverse's worship is credited to him. That's the definition of a Greater Deity in D&DG (millions of worshippers in multiple worlds and from multiple cultures). SDAs don't really come into that definition. And I wouldn't put Jesus at 60 HD, nor DvR 20 either. Specifically, the man said that there were things He didn't know, that only His Father could reveal. That makes him not a greater future seeing god. Jesus saw the future. He predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, remember? He predicts a lot of things. He specifically cannot predict the exact timing of the apocalypse, because *only* God the Father can know it. Which is not a big deal. Nothing in D&DG says that DvR 20 Greater Deities know the future in full. Indeed, omniscience isn't given to *any* of the D&DG deities, and is implied to rest with Overdeities if it rests with anyone at all. (Mystra is a Greater Deity, but she sure as heck didn't predict the Time of Troubles, did she?)
ArcTan 12-07-07, 05:08 PM	A 17th level human wizard can do it with Genesis. Jus' saying. :P ;) Off hand, where does it say that Aslan created all worlds? I don't remember seeing that, but on the other hand It's been years since I sat down and read all seven books. Magician's Nephew, in the talk Aslan gives in the Wood-Between-the-Worlds to Diggory and Polly before sending them back to Earth.
Kain_Darkwind 12-07-07, 07:24 PM	Well, the main definition of DvR is who worships you and where you matter, not any particular abilities you have or don't have. Aslan is worshipped by beings all over the multiverse (given that he's the fantasy-lion form of Jesus and openly states that he manifests in different ways in every world) and matters to beings all over the multiverse. Indeed, every good creature in the entire multiverse's worship is credited to him. That's the definition of a Greater Deity in D&DG (millions of worshippers in multiple worlds and from multiple cultures). SDAs don't really come into that definition. In that case, most of the Greek gods need a bumping up in strata. Since more than 'a few hundred to few thousand' people worshiped Hercules as the son of Zeus. Probably more than a hundred thousand worshiped Ares. Tiamat is worshiped across the planes by all sorts of beings, but she's only a lesser god. Worshiper number is a good rough estimate of where a particular deity ranks, but it can't be the only one. Jesus saw the future. He predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, remember? He predicts a lot of things. He specifically cannot predict the exact timing of the apocalypse, because *only* God the Father can know it. Which fits more in with someone gaining their info via commune or divination than by Portfolio Sense. Which is not a big deal. Nothing in D&DG says that DvR 20 Greater Deities know the future in full. Indeed, omniscience isn't given to *any* of the D&DG deities, and is implied to rest with Overdeities if it rests with anyone at all. (Mystra is a Greater Deity, but she sure as heck didn't predict the Time of Troubles, did she?) No she didn't. Although one might suspect that because the Time of Troubles was a 2e event and portfolio sense is a 3e phenomenon, the discrepancy lies in that direction rather than a failure on the greater god powers.
ArcTan 12-07-07, 07:45 PM	In that case, most of the Greek gods need a bumping up in strata. Since more than 'a few hundred to few thousand' people worshiped Hercules as the son of Zeus. Probably more than a hundred thousand worshiped Ares. Tiamat is worshiped across the planes by all sorts of beings, but she's only a lesser god. Worshiper number is a good rough estimate of where a particular deity ranks, but it can't be the only one. Being part of a pantheon is another one. There are very few people who worshipped Herculues who did not acknowledge the primacy of Zeus (indeed, Hercules was worshipped *because* he was Zeus' son). The nature of the Greek pantheon was such that even people who primarily worshipped one god, like Apollo, were forced to revere Zeus, because Zeus was the father of all gods. Aslan isn't a member of a pantheon and people who worship him are specifically required to disavow all gods other than him. Bickering over the nature of the Trinity notwithstanding, Christianity is a monotheistic faith, and the guideline in D&DG for monotheistic deities like Taiia is Rank 20 Greater Deity. As for Tiamat's Lesser Deity status, this is indeed one of the most controversial things about her status in 3e that a lot of people protest against. Her analogue, Takhisis, who's only important to *one* world, Krynn, is clearly a Greater Deity by that world's standards (powerful enough to stand against all the other gods combined). Which fits more in with someone gaining their info via commune or divination than by Portfolio Sense. No, not really. Jesus seemed to automatically know the things that he knew. He called out the day or hour of the apocalypse as a *specific* thing that he *couldn't* know. Which fits the idea of portfolio-sense-with-exceptions better than having to use a "magic spell" to know specific future events but not others. Remember that portfolio sense isn't omniscience or even close to it. Aslan, you'll notice, seems to never, ever be in the position of not knowing something in the Narnia books, however you interpret the difficult passage about what exactly Jesus means by not knowing "the day or the hour" in the Gospels. (Notice that even here, he specifically means he won't know the *time* of the apocalypse, while he's at the same time describing what will happen in it.) No she didn't. Although one might suspect that because the Time of Troubles was a 2e event and portfolio sense is a 3e phenomenon, the discrepancy lies in that direction rather than a failure on the greater god powers. It's still the case that Greater Deities like Mystra aren't all-knowing, and that things can take them by surprise, especially things that have been specifically barred from their knowledge by an Overdeity (or not even an Overdeity -- various artifacts and magical locations specifically have this ability as well). In any case, what are the actual *positive* arguments for Aslan being a mere Demideity that you want to put forward? The totality of stuff he does in the Narnia books greatly outpaces what you could describe with a Demideity's SDAs. He's far more important, cosmically speaking, than a Demideity is supposed to be. The "But he died!" argument is really weak sauce, since he died *on purpose* and then came back under his own power -- and that's the only argument I've seen you use.
zopzop 12-07-07, 08:25 PM	Hmm, I don't know if this helps but, you could always use Talisid (Book of Exalted Deeds) as a baseline no? I mean he's practically Aslan's twin :)
Kain_Darkwind 12-07-07, 08:29 PM	Being part of a pantheon is another one. There are very few people who worshipped Herculues who did not acknowledge the primacy of Zeus (indeed, Hercules was worshipped *because* he was Zeus' son). The nature of the Greek pantheon was such that even people who primarily worshipped one god, like Apollo, were forced to revere Zeus, because Zeus was the father of all gods. More than just worshipers is the point here. If I make a 6 billion people populated planet (more than I think most campaign settings have) I could potentially have 6,000 greater gods, even if all gods were equal. The worshiper population is just a quick estimate. Aslan isn't a member of a pantheon and people who worship him are specifically required to disavow all gods other than him. Bickering over the nature of the Trinity notwithstanding, Christianity is a monotheistic faith, and the guideline in D&DG for monotheistic deities like Taiia is Rank 20 Greater Deity. You keep bouncing back and forth between Christianity (RL) and Aslan's worship in Narnia. You'll need to stick with a singular one and stop picking and choosing. The fact that Aslan symbolized Christian Jesus doesn't mean that all the information one can't gather from the books can be gained from looking into the Christian faith's ideas on Jesus. As for Tiamat's Lesser Deity status, this is indeed one of the most controversial things about her status in 3e that a lot of people protest against. Her analogue, Takhisis, who's only important to *one* world, Krynn, is clearly a Greater Deity by that world's standards (powerful enough to stand against all the other gods combined). Naturally, so one can conclude either WotC doesn't pay attention to their own rules, or that when you are playing in a bigger sandbox, you lose power in comparison. My only point in mentioning this was to show that gods aren't consistent with worshiper population. No, not really. Jesus seemed to automatically know the things that he knew. He called out the day or hour of the apocalypse as a *specific* thing that he *couldn't* know. Which fits the idea of portfolio-sense-with-exceptions better than having to use a "magic spell" to know specific future events but not others. Remember that portfolio sense isn't omniscience or even close to it. Keep in mind, the reason I brought Jesus up was to point out that I have no problem with disagreeing with DvR 20 Jesus, since it was intimated by you that because Aslan symbolized Jesus, he had to be the greater deity he's stated as. Not to begin discussing how to stat him. While I'd be glad to do so, I'm afraid it can only end in a locked topic as it is against the CoC. I will point out that many of the original divine spells are based directly on the miracles of Jesus. Including commune. It wouldn't be 'using a magic spell'. Aslan, you'll notice, seems to never, ever be in the position of not knowing something in the Narnia books, however you interpret the difficult passage about what exactly Jesus means by not knowing "the day or the hour" in the Gospels. (Notice that even here, he specifically means he won't know the *time* of the apocalypse, while he's at the same time describing what will happen in it.) Let's stick with Aslan as written about by Lewis, without adding RL religion elements into it that aren't present in the story. In any case, what are the actual *positive* arguments for Aslan being a mere Demideity that you want to put forward? The totality of stuff he does in the Narnia books greatly outpaces what you could describe with a Demideity's SDAs. He's far more important, cosmically speaking, than a Demideity is supposed to be. The "But he died!" argument is really weak sauce, since he died *on purpose* and then came back under his own power -- and that's the only argument I've seen you use. Oh, let's knock off the hostile tone and discuss it respectfully, shall we? The failed Fortitude save was the primary reason I'd put for keeping him from having a ton of HD, more so than keeping him from being a greater god. And let's keep in mind...a god can want to die 'on purpose', but unless something deals him enough damage to kill him, he is not going to do so. Looking at god rules, I'm not sure he can suffer from a coup de grace anyways, as deities, even of DvR 0 are immune to death attacks. Maybe a coup de grace isn't a death effect though. I'd hesitate to suggest it was just some sort of aspect that died there, because that seems to be a cop-out and I very much got the impression that Aslan was not copping out. The beating Aslan took from the Witch's troops seems to indicate less hit points and damage reduction than a greater deity has. The creation of worlds can be covered through either Alter Reality (to duplicate the genesis spell) or the Creation domain (which has the genesis spell, I believe). Even a 5HD demigod with the domain or SDA could accomplish that. The primary reason I feel he is a demigod (or at least lesser) is because he constantly walks among the people. Greater gods don't do this, at least not in most worlds/campaigns. (Minus Greenwood's self-insertion fan fiction) They may sent their avatars or proxies, but Aslan seems to be actually himself, if you know what I mean. And in my mind, the higher powers remove themselves from such things.
sciborg3 12-08-07, 12:47 AM	I don't think you can take a being that is meant to be an allegory of a RL divinity and translate it to D&D. Largely because D&D supposes many things about gods and their power. The idea of dying for sins, or even the meaning of resurrection isn't easily translatable into D&D.
ArcTan 12-08-07, 01:30 AM	You keep bouncing back and forth between Christianity (RL) and Aslan's worship in Narnia. You'll need to stick with a singular one and stop picking and choosing. The fact that Aslan symbolized Christian Jesus doesn't mean that all the information one can't gather from the books can be gained from looking into the Christian faith's ideas on Jesus. Okay. The people who worship Aslan are also monotheists. Aslan is presented as a deity in a monotheistic religion. It is never implied that there is a world of *anyone* out there who are in service to another deity, separate and independent from Aslan, who is Aslan's equal. Oh, let's knock off the hostile tone and discuss it respectfully, shall we? The failed Fortitude save was the primary reason I'd put for keeping him from having a ton of HD, more so than keeping him from being a greater god. But he decided to die. And let's keep in mind...a god can want to die 'on purpose', but unless something deals him enough damage to kill him, he is not going to do so. Anyone can choose to fail a Fort save. Looking at god rules, I'm not sure he can suffer from a coup de grace anyways, as deities, even of DvR 0 are immune to death attacks. Maybe a coup de grace isn't a death effect though. It isn't. Death effects are spells with the [Death] descriptor, not any save-or-die. (Many creatures that are immune to death effects, like Warforged Juggernauts, are explicitly and obviously still vulnerable to being hacked to pieces -- CDG just describes being hacked to pieces very efficiently because you can't fight back.) I'd hesitate to suggest it was just some sort of aspect that died there, because that seems to be a cop-out and I very much got the impression that Aslan was not copping out. The beating Aslan took from the Witch's troops seems to indicate less hit points and damage reduction than a greater deity has. Any deity can choose to stand there and let himself be killed. The creation of worlds can be covered through either Alter Reality (to duplicate the genesis spell) or the Creation domain (which has the genesis spell, I believe). Even a 5HD demigod with the domain or SDA could accomplish that. The primary reason I feel he is a demigod (or at least lesser) is because he constantly walks among the people. Greater gods don't do this, at least not in most worlds/campaigns. (Minus Greenwood's self-insertion fan fiction) They may sent their avatars or proxies, but Aslan seems to be actually himself, if you know what I mean. And in my mind, the higher powers remove themselves from such things. Well, whatever. Obviously Narnia wasn't written with D&D rules in mind or anything close to them. But yes, one could make a case for Aslan being an "avatar" or "aspect" or whatever you want. Aslan makes multiple references to being present though unseen throughout the protagonists' travels. Aslan is present *in our world* in the form of Jesus at the same time that he is present in Narnia (he explicitly tells the four Pevensies this at the end of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe). If you want to say that it was an "avatar" or "aspect" of Aslan who died on the Table, sure, be my guest. And it's kind of obvious that the point C.S. Lewis wanted to make with his Narnia series -- a Christian point -- was that he *doesn't* think walking among the people is a sign of lesser power or of weakness (indeed, there's a conversation in A Horse and His Boy where the Narnians openly challenge the Calormenes assumption that Aslan can only be a "demon" at best because he's "merely" an animal that anyone can see and touch).
Aleolus 12-08-07, 01:48 AM	The failed Fortitude save was the primary reason I'd put for keeping him from having a ton of HD, more so than keeping him from being a greater god. And let's keep in mind...a god can want to die 'on purpose', but unless something deals him enough damage to kill him, he is not going to do so. Looking at god rules, I'm not sure he can suffer from a coup de grace anyways, as deities, even of DvR 0 are immune to death attacks. Maybe a coup de grace isn't a death effect though. I'd hesitate to suggest it was just some sort of aspect that died there, because that seems to be a cop-out and I very much got the impression that Aslan was not copping out. The beating Aslan took from the Witch's troops seems to indicate less hit points and damage reduction than a greater deity has. The creation of worlds can be covered through either Alter Reality (to duplicate the genesis spell) or the Creation domain (which has the genesis spell, I believe). Even a 5HD demigod with the domain or SDA could accomplish that. The primary reason I feel he is a demigod (or at least lesser) is because he constantly walks among the people. Greater gods don't do this, at least not in most worlds/campaigns. (Minus Greenwood's self-insertion fan fiction) They may sent their avatars or proxies, but Aslan seems to be actually himself, if you know what I mean. And in my mind, the higher powers remove themselves from such things. OK, for the failed Fort save, he chose to fail it, which anyone (even a Greater Deity) can do, automatically suffering the effects of failing. Almost all of a Deities Divine Immunities can be overcome under certain circumstances, usually when the effect is coming from a deity with a higher DvR than the one in question. But there are other exceptions. For instance, Aphrodite can affect any deity with her lust-inducing powers, regardless of their Divine Rank. Also, Aslan was killed in a ritual ceremony designed specifically to satisfy the 'Deep Magic from the dawn of time', to keep Edmund from needing to die. Ritual ceremonies never follow the rules, because they produce the effect they want, based on the circumstances causing them. In this case, I would interpret the effects as temporarily reducing his DvR to 0, if not completely suppressing it. As for his walking among his people, yes he does do this, but not often. The longest continuous time that it happened was in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, where he spent a large portion of his time gathering an army, rescuing the individuals who had been petrified by the Witch, and bringing about the Witch's downfall and the Coronation of the children. Then he disappears, and is never seen again until several hundred years later when, once again, Narnia is in deep trouble, the children have all returned, and need to be led. Even then, he only shows himself to a very few individuals. For the most part, we never see him openly and overtly. We may see his actions, but he is almost always in the backgrounds, which I think fits the image of a Greater deity quite well.
Kain_Darkwind 12-08-07, 10:19 AM	You guys both make good points. I can get behind greater deity. I'd probably still go with lower HD than normal for a deity, but that's more personal taste.
Space_Dragon 12-08-07, 01:24 PM	Another possibility would be to treat Aslan as a free-willed avatar of the Emperor Across the Sea. Sort of like how Dicefreaks' Asmodeous is a projection of the Overlord, but still has a mind of his own (only not evil).
yrogerg 12-08-07, 10:01 PM	Since when can a greater deity do that? No greater deity fashioned the Planes, nor the Prime, nor even the prime worlds. Actually, on page 7 of D&DG, they discuss at length the extent to which monotheistic dieties are frequently depicted as "the creater of everything, in control of everything, and concerned with every aspect of existance". I know that you're actually complaining that there's no SDA that corresponds to world-creation, but the idea that a Greater Diety could create the world -or the multiverse- is there in D&DG, all the same. Your claim is based heavily on D&D's default cosmology, which is heavily pantheistic, and not on the cosmology we're talking about, which is monotheistic.
Kain_Darkwind 12-08-07, 11:58 PM	Actually, on page 7 of D&DG, they discuss at length the extent to which monotheistic dieties are frequently depicted as "the creater of everything, in control of everything, and concerned with every aspect of existance". I know that you're actually complaining that there's no SDA that corresponds to world-creation, but the idea that a Greater Diety could create the world -or the multiverse- is there in D&DG, all the same. Your claim is based heavily on D&D's default cosmology, which is heavily pantheistic, and not on the cosmology we're talking about, which is monotheistic. Actually, my complaint/argument was chiefly that in the DnD-verse, no greater deity fashioned the world, or the planes.
ArcTan 12-09-07, 01:18 AM	Don't the worshippers of Taiia believe Taiia created the world? Doesn't the Deities & Demigods version of Odin mention that he helped sculpt the world into being from Ymir's body? Part of this is that I don't really believe in a "D&D-verse" -- Planescape is one D&D setting among many, not the end-all and be-all of everything that's ever "happened in D&D". The point of the Deities & Demigods rules is supposed to be that you can use them for a variety of different settings, including ones with monotheistic creator-gods, not to tie every campaign into the often hokey Planescape meta-setting.
yrogerg 12-09-07, 03:35 AM	Actually, my complaint/argument was chiefly that in the DnD-verse, no greater deity fashioned the world, or the planes. Right, but assuming the Great Wheel cosmology when talking about Aslan is a pretty heafty assumption, and one that limits the extent that you can discuss Aslan *as written* and simultaneously contradicts most of the material that D&DG presents pertaining to Monotheistic and Dualistic Religions, which is pretty explicit about the extent to which Monotheistic and Dualistic dieties frequently are creator/destroyer dieties. D&DG explicitly leaves room for non-Great Wheel cosmologies, *specifically* when discussing non-pantheistic religions. You, however, are not. Which one should we pay more attention to when discussing the possible stats of a non-Great Wheel diety?
Kain_Darkwind 12-09-07, 10:54 AM	Don't the worshippers of Taiia believe Taiia created the world? Doesn't the Deities & Demigods version of Odin mention that he helped sculpt the world into being from Ymir's body? Part of this is that I don't really believe in a "D&D-verse" -- Planescape is one D&D setting among many, not the end-all and be-all of everything that's ever "happened in D&D". The point of the Deities & Demigods rules is supposed to be that you can use them for a variety of different settings, including ones with monotheistic creator-gods, not to tie every campaign into the often hokey Planescape meta-setting. Right, but assuming the Great Wheel cosmology when talking about Aslan is a pretty heafty assumption, and one that limits the extent that you can discuss Aslan *as written* and simultaneously contradicts most of the material that D&DG presents pertaining to Monotheistic and Dualistic Religions, which is pretty explicit about the extent to which Monotheistic and Dualistic dieties frequently are creator/destroyer dieties. D&DG explicitly leaves room for non-Great Wheel cosmologies, *specifically* when discussing non-pantheistic religions. You, however, are not. Which one should we pay more attention to when discussing the possible stats of a non-Great Wheel diety? Do keep in mind you are both trying to beat a dead horse, since I already said I was convinced that Aslan could merit a greater deity. First off, extending the term 'greater deity' outside DnD holds no meaning. We could use the millions of worshipers criteria, or look at SDAs and see who is capable of what, but that's about it. We don't separate RL deities into 'greater' and 'intermediate' etc. So either we look at DnD's world for guidelines or we should probably scrap the idea of DnD stats for the guy, since they otherwise have no grounds from which they are based. A 100HD deity is only as impressive as his comparison to other entities allows him. So, I'm not suggesting one write Aslan for the Great Wheel. He shouldn't have to wonder if the Lady of Pain can flay him and she shouldn't wonder if he can get inside Sigil. What I am pointing out is that when one says "Aslan created the world", that doesn't place him as a greater deity. Genesis can create a world at 17th level, and no divine power can create one at DvR 16-20. That's MY point here. You can't use 'created the world' to ironclad argue 'is a greater god'. And that goes even if you were correct in your suggestion that there isn't a default cosmology, ArcTan. (Which you aren't but can be argued on a different thread so as not to derail this one. Or you can just go rereead our and others' previous arguments on the matter; I'm sure no new evidence has come to light for either side.) It certainly doesn't matter about Taiia, since we don't even have a setting for her. Her creation of the world might have been true or just a belief. And I'm sure you know there was more to Odin's creation of the world than Aslan's. Aslan sang the world into being from nothing, Odin built it from Ymir's corpse. One is true divine creation, fashioning something from nothing, the other is just an impressive feat of engineering.
sciborg3 12-09-07, 01:39 PM	Planescape is one D&D setting among many, not the end-all and be-all of everything that's ever "happened in D&D". The point of the Deities & Demigods rules is supposed to be that you can use them for a variety of different settings, including ones with monotheistic creator-gods, not to tie every campaign into the often hokey Planescape meta-setting. The default D&D Great Wheel precedes and extends beyond Planescape's published run. Your claim is based heavily on D&D's default cosmology, which is heavily pantheistic, and not on the cosmology we're talking about, which is monotheistic. Actually I think the Great Wheel is almost if not as bad for pantheism as it is monotheism.
yrogerg 12-09-07, 02:35 PM	Actually I think the Great Wheel is almost if not as bad for pantheism as it is monotheism. Well, whether or not the Great Wheel is bad, in general, is a separate issue. I'm mainly going by D&DG's own suggestions regarding cosmologies where monotheistims or dualisms fit and make sense.
sciborg3 12-09-07, 03:28 PM	I'm mainly going by D&DG's own suggestions regarding cosmologies where monotheistims or dualisms fit and make sense. What page is this on? Thanks! As an aside I always thought it was interesting that Athar members were, in some sense, monotheists.
yrogerg 12-09-07, 06:04 PM	What page is this on? Thanks! The whole first chapter, really, but largely pages 5-9. The D&D default and the kind that the Great Wheel is suited for (if it's actually suited for anything at all) is referred to as a "Loose Pantheon" As an aside I always thought it was interesting that Athar members were, in some sense, monotheists. I definitely would say that they're possibly the most genuinely *religious* of Planescape's characters -the common remark is that belief in D&D gods is like belief in the postman, but I'm not sure I'd call them out as true monotheists. Their beliefs are really like a weird combination of agnosticism and Deism, more than anything. They're modestly equivocal about whether or not there is a true divine power or powers out there, and a lot more firm on the fact that such a power would be completely beyond mortal ken in a way that the Powers are not.
Tovec 12-10-07, 12:43 AM	Since when can a greater deity do that? No greater deity fashioned the Planes, nor the Prime, nor even the prime worlds. You say this like it changes my opinion. I know all of this. Lewis wished to present his faith of Christianity to children. And he did a good job of it. But seeing as how there exists no 'rules' for any deity to create a world, I fail to see how this strengthens a DvR 20 case over a DvR 3. Or 50 HD over 30. I'm sorry, I know much of this has been covered. I'm catching up. First, you are right, no deity to my knowledge (except Taiia and Odin) have created a plane/world. However, as mortals the most powerful deities we can understand (see/interact with) are rank 20 deities. Overdeities are beyond our level of understanding except in the most abstract sense (as the emperor beyond the sea). Aslan is shown to be in control over not just the White Witch (for wherever she hails) but Tash. He clearly is able to control Tash in the final chapter(s) of the series. Second, Odin did make the world, with help from his brothers he is a rank 19. Taiia is rank 20 and "is said to be the creator of the universe". With this I'd say Aslan is 20 or 19 at the very least, not a 3. Also, stop saying that because he failed a fortitude save is the reason he'd have low HD. That doesn't make sense. Any creature can CHOOSE to fail a save. That is what he did. Specifically in the book as in the movie interpretation he didn't fight his death in the least. He didn't try to stop it from happening and when the time came he chose to fail his fortitude save (if we are assuming that's what it was) for a coup de grace. A genesis spell doesn't cut it for world creation. It grew too fast and to plentifully for it to be a genesis spell. In a monotheistic setting where the god favours a specific race/culture/society it makes sense that Aslan would walk through his people. Its not like he was around all the time, "he isn't a tame lion", he would show up during times of great turmoil and leave once they were resolved. This is consistent with stories of what the gods (of all ranks) would do in earlier ages of the world(s). He shows up battles a great foe or influences outcomes of events then leaves, seems more like a greater deity to leave as quickly as Aslan does more then a lesser or demideity. Demigods have been known to appear randomly for brief periods to inspire what they are known for, thinking of stories of when Aslan brings stars down for celebrations.
ArcTan 12-10-07, 01:45 AM	There are other creator-deities. Ptah is the creator-deity of the "Pharoahnic" Pantheon in D&DG, though his status as such is deliberately mysterious and unclear. (From an OOC perspective, Re, the Sun God, is the chief god of the pantheon in all ways, but reflected in lesser aspects -- Ptah is an offshoot of the legends of Re as the creator and shaper of the world, whereas the god they depict in D&DG as Re-Horakhty is his aspect as a king and leader.)
Kain_Darkwind 12-10-07, 07:23 AM	There are other creator-deities. Ptah is the creator-deity of the "Pharoahnic" Pantheon in D&DG, though his status as such is deliberately mysterious and unclear. (From an OOC perspective, Re, the Sun God, is the chief god of the pantheon in all ways, but reflected in lesser aspects -- Ptah is an offshoot of the legends of Re as the creator and shaper of the world, whereas the god they depict in D&DG as Re-Horakhty is his aspect as a king and leader.) I don't have my DDg handy, ArcTan, what level of god is Ptah? Greater, I suppose? Tovec, I'd argue your points except that I conceded most of them before you made them. As for genesis, if mortal non-epic magic can accomplish all that, I'm sure one could then imagine that a god-power could do even more. A god-power that doesn't exist in the official rules. Because with the official rules, neither Taiia, Odin, Ptah or Aslan can make a world. No matter what kind of god they are.
yrogerg 12-10-07, 08:10 AM	I don't have my DDg handy, ArcTan, what level of god is Ptah? Greater, I suppose? Intermediate, actually. It kinda makes sense, since he's depicted as minor and marginal to the pantheon with his role as creator being, as Arctan mentioned, vague and unclear. Being a creator god doesn't automatically make him a Greater god. Monotheism implies Greater goodhood (page 8, "In effect, a monotheistic religion is limited to 20 total ranks of divine power, all of which are concentrated in a single diety...") and creator-godhood (page 7, as quoted above), but not vice versa. And Greater godhood doesn't necessarily imply creator-godhood, nor vice versa. Tovec, I'd argue your points except that I conceded most of them before you made them. As for genesis, if mortal non-epic magic can accomplish all that, I'm sure one could then imagine that a god-power could do even more. A god-power that doesn't exist in the official rules. Because with the official rules, neither Taiia, Odin, Ptah or Aslan can make a world. No matter what kind of god they are. To be fair, this is the point where we point out two things: 1) D&DG, like all D&D material, is deliberately left open-ended, leaving room for "a few deities [that] have unique salient divine abilities that are described in the deity's individual entry" (p 32) 2) The deities, as-statted in D&DG, describe these deities as they are most likely to be encountered in a non-epic adventure. In most non-epic adventures, there is a world (universe, planes or whatever), and there is no need to create additional worlds. As such, no deity is likely to be encountered in a manner where their capacity to create worlds would be relevant. There would be no reason to include it in a stat block.