Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MacDuff 08-20-07, 09:03 PM	See Gencon Staff Blogs. Just wanted to chime in and say good design decision (Mr. Perkins knows how to get the buzz rolling) ... I'd like to think that the designers have been listening to my posts over the last few years (and a paladin revamp to boot ... thank you again)! This will be a big step in the right direction regarding divine/fiendish balance and I won't even be unhappy if Orcus' peers (Demogorgon and Graz'zt etc. are passed over for similar promotions ... they should be accessible targets to players as they are among the myriad denizens of the Abyss whom aren't hierarchical like the Baatezu) ... their true power comes from their numbers/unpredictability after all. I'm just sorry that I chose a fishing trip over Gencon this year (but 3 of the past 4 isn't bad) ... oh well.
The Serge7 08-20-07, 09:56 PM	Any word on what level of divinity The Lord of the Nine will "enjoy?"
Shemeska the Marauder 08-20-07, 10:11 PM	It's really semantics on some level. Divine or not, the flavor text was already firm that they possessed the power of gods regardless of having actual divinity or not. Though I'd prefer a distinction between archfiends and gods to be a firm one, for those archfiends with established mortal cults, I'm fine with them being given divinity in 4e (so long as the equivalency of archfiends and gods is maintained in the flavor text). Might this be a return to some of the 2e handling of archfiends? Time will tell.
Calmar 08-21-07, 10:28 AM	So does that change anything at all? If core-deities go down by loosing every follower, a guy who commands a (neverending) flow of one third of all evil beings seems to me to be even harder to get rid of, now. :confused:
MacDuff 08-21-07, 10:51 AM	It appears that he will be included in the 4E PHB (making him a god in Core D&D). Hopefully, he will appear as a Greater God as the Baatezu are core monsters for any new Monster Manuals (and their predominance among LE races/NPCs at higher levels is unquestioned) ... though some scaling of power across campaign settings isn't necessarily bad either (allowing flavors to be distinct). Ultimately, (if any game designers are listening) I would prefer Greater God status because of the hierarchical nature of LE (this being one area of planar power/politics that allows a tying in of this sort ... instead of having myriad tyrant gods all with competing agendas). I say this because lawful members of any pantheon should be far more stable/co-operative (even if diabolic) than other factions/alignments and because Asmodeus is directly tied to mortality (all mortals) if his FC2 creation myth is further developped in 4E (making hima potentially huge villain/star). Perhaps having Asmodeus beset by power struggles with Lawful Gods or a re-escalation of the Blood War would achieve the moderating influence necessary to keep him in check while better showcasing one of D&D's biggest stars! As an aside, I have to disagree with maintaining parity across the archfiends (partially due to what I said earlier), because the arguement about LEs organization/tactics/strategy (though theoretically sound on the flavour level) has never translated well into the game due to game design/mechanics ... ie. 10HD of Baatezu can't withstand 100HD of Tanar'ri or even 20HD of Tanar'ri for that matter). Ultimately, CE should have many champions or dark gods and NE should fall somewhere in between the other 2. As to reconciling gods and fiends that is another matter entirely.
The Serge7 08-21-07, 11:01 AM	My preference would be that Asmodeus, like all other powerful planar rulers/entities, was not a "god" per se, but something that can compete with and threaten gods (which is pretty much what we did with TGoH). That said, if WotC goes in the direction not paralleling planar rulers with gods in favor of making them more-or-less one and the same (which was largely done in 2ed), I'd also prefer greater god status and then declining ranks for the remaining eight Lords of the Nine.
Witch 08-21-07, 11:48 AM	In a Divine system, I'd like the Lords of the Nine to have status somewhat like this, in increasing order of power: Lesser: Bael Mammon Glasya Intermediate: Belial Beelzebub Dispater Mephistopheles Greater: Asmodeus I'd be happy with something like that, really. Especially if they got home ground bonuses against deities. An official mandate by Asmodeus, however, prevents other Greater Deities from slaughtering the weaker ones anyway. Ofcourse, I'd prefer it more if the LotN and their fellow cosmic entities would be more powerful than gods, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Treymordin 08-21-07, 12:16 PM	When was this announced?
Artifact 08-21-07, 12:27 PM	I've heard mention of a "Paladin of Asmodeus" (somewhere :confused:). If this is true, then paladins (as we know them now) will be all but unrecognizable in 4E. Not a bad thing, and actually, I'm curious. Heres an interesting implication of such a move: Good and evil become mirror images of each other. This may have been implied in previous editions, but now it seems to be "official". Guess I'll have to stipulate an alternate approach in my own homebrew setting; that is, that the balance between good and evil is more dynamic.
sciborg2 08-22-07, 04:19 PM	I think it was Rip who pointed out that if anything, a weaker Asmodeus could still rule Hell by intellect, some kind of "divine" right, or what not. Demogorgon truly earned his place as Prince of Demons as there must be millions who he slaughtered and keeps at bay in a place of Chaos. If anyone has crawled through the wreckage to deserve being a greater god, its the primordial tanar'ri.
The Serge7 08-22-07, 06:43 PM	Not any more if the PC-driven conclusion of the Savage Tide adventure path in DUNGEON is considered canon.
ripvanwormer 08-22-07, 06:59 PM	Of course, Demogorgon indirectly slaughtered an entire pantheon (or rather, the Abyss itself did because of Demogorgon's' machinations), according to his Demonomicon article, so that's pretty impressive. The conclusion of Savage Tide was dramatic enough that I'm okay with it. The PCs kill him only after he's weakened by single combat with Orcus, and various other handicaps. Officially that just lowers him from CR 33 to CR 23 or so, but one could just as easily say it reduces him from a divine-like state to a mortal state. It depends on how bad his injuries are, after all.
Deacon Liadon 08-22-07, 07:47 PM	Besides, it's not like dead Archfiends haven't returned before.
caeruleus 08-23-07, 02:18 PM	Demogorgon's dead? (Assuming it's canon...) That sucks, but it would be interesting to see what comes of the power vacuum. Actually, did anything interesting happen back when Orcus died?
sciborg2 08-23-07, 03:34 PM	Honestly....no.
Deacon Liadon 08-23-07, 04:29 PM	A rather minor goddess of undead took over when Orcus died. As well as a nasty hit to the Tana'ri forces in the blood war. I'm not sure that the same would happen with Demogorgan though. If anything, things will be much, much worse. For starters, there will be a major civil war (well, more than usual) in the Abyss, as the Demon Lords fight for the title of Prince of Demons. Most likely candidate will be Grazzt I'd say. However, they'll also be fighting over the 88th layer as well, and I have a sneaking suspicion we may see Obox-ob come back to retake what was his. Second, the loss of Demogorgan will mean a serious hit to the forces the Tana'ri will be able to commit to the Blood War. The Baatezu will probably be able to gain a lot of ground in the blood war, maybe even making strikes into some of the deeper layers.
Erik Mona 08-23-07, 05:04 PM	Awww. We decided to make Asmodeus a god for Pathfinder months ago. Welcome to the party, WotC! :) --Erik
Witch 08-23-07, 05:28 PM	Awww. We decided to make Asmodeus a god for Pathfinder months ago. Welcome to the party, WotC! :) --Erik How high a god did you make him in Pathfinder? :) And what have you done with the other LotN?
MindLich 08-23-07, 05:41 PM	Go Erik, Go Erik! Well, it really makes sense. And, since when is Orcus dead?
Shemeska the Marauder 08-23-07, 06:15 PM	Go Erik, Go Erik! Well, it really makes sense. And, since when is Orcus dead? He was dead for a stretch of years out of game, and a rather protracted period in-game after he was killed by Kiaransalee, the drow goddess of vengeance and necromancy. Ultimately though, he was restored to life and archfiend status (sans his former divinity) by the cleric Qua-Nomag. Once he returned, he pretty much obliterated Kiaransalee's followers on the layer of Thanatos, and forced Kiaransalee herself to flee into hiding on a dead world on the prime material. The events were originally detailed in the modules Great Modron March, Dead Gods, and 3.x detail was added in the first Fiendish Codex.
Orodruin 08-23-07, 06:52 PM	I'm still wondering why they bothered. I mean, the core deities have already got their Lawful Evil god of tyranny. Ditto for Forgotten Realms. What's the point in making Asmodeus a god? Frankly he works best as an Archfiend and THE archdevil. Face it, the gods are pretty much background flavor and a source for divine spells and plot-points. The real fun big bad guys are the Demon Princes and Archdevils, so I don't see how altering Asmo's status can really be a help anything. His current rank as the Lord of the Nine should be more than adequate to justify the "Paladins of Asmodeus" if they're that dead-set in having them.
Witch 08-23-07, 07:04 PM	It's a step that WotC might've taken so that they can justify to those who believe "gods are the greatest!" that Asmodeus is that bad a guy, and not just a pansy devil that the gods kick around.
caeruleus 08-23-07, 07:26 PM	I'm still wondering why they bothered. I mean, the core deities have already got their Lawful Evil god of tyranny. Ditto for Forgotten Realms. What's the point in making Asmodeus a god? Frankly he works best as an Archfiend and THE archdevil. Face it, the gods are pretty much background flavor and a source for divine spells and plot-points. The real fun big bad guys are the Demon Princes and Archdevils, so I don't see how altering Asmo's status can really be a help anything. His current rank as the Lord of the Nine should be more than adequate to justify the "Paladins of Asmodeus" if they're that dead-set in having them. I think it's because they won't be using all of the 3.x core deities, but only a selection of them, plus some gods from real-world myths, such as Thor. So maybe they won't use Hextor, but wanted to use a LE deity with wider use.
Teh_username 08-24-07, 11:28 PM	Heres an interesting implication of such a move: Good and evil become mirror images of each other. This may have been implied in previous editions... Cutting the post off there, to state that not only was such not implied, it was explicitly stated as false. In "core" D&D before 3e, Evil had numerical superiority, but was held in check by its fractitiousness and the individual superiority of Good. This philosophy can still be seen in Goblins, Kobolds, and the like, as well as in the differences between Fiends and Celestials. This was the reasoning for the lack of "Anti-Paladins" before 3e, and brought up from time to time in the Planescape setting (where the Blood War between the Baatezu and Tanar'ri was encouraged by the rest of the Planes to keep Evil occupied).
arderkrag 08-25-07, 12:14 AM	He certainly deserves it, if a character can gain merit from the storyline. I mean, here's a guy who danced cricles around all the other lords of the nine during the reckoning and came out unscathed. He's every bit as bad, or badder than, many gods.
ArcTan 08-25-07, 02:18 AM	So does that change anything at all? If core-deities go down by loosing every follower, a guy who commands a (neverending) flow of one third of all evil beings seems to me to be even harder to get rid of, now. :confused: I never liked the implication that the DR/number of worshippers relationship was causal, that it's literally having lots of worshippers that *makes* you the greater god. I find that really annoying, actually.
ArcTan 08-25-07, 02:24 AM	I think that the distinction between "god" and "being with the power of a god" is kind of a meaningless one in D&D itself (even if people have spun it out to be very important in spinoffs like Dicefreaks) and I'd prefer if just one term were used for the general concept.
arderkrag 08-25-07, 02:30 AM	I never liked the implication that the DR/number of worshippers relationship was causal, that it's literally having lots of worshippers that *makes* you the greater god. I find that really annoying, actually. Actually...I thought that was only really the case in the Realms, since that's the world where that standard was set...
ssvegeta555 08-25-07, 03:45 AM	I don't much care for Asmodeus being promoted to godhood. In fact I don't care much of him at all. I don't know why exactly, but the more powerful he becomes the more I wish to see him dethroned.
Bob the Efreet 08-25-07, 03:48 AM	I think that the distinction between "god" and "being with the power of a god" is kind of a meaningless one in D&D itself (even if people have spun it out to be very important in spinoffs like Dicefreaks) and I'd prefer if just one term were used for the general concept. Functionally it's very similar. So if you're completely indifferent to flavour-based subtleties then sure, it works great to have them be the same thing. Actually...I thought that was only really the case in the Realms, since that's the world where that standard was set... It was used somewhat extensively in Planescape, as well.
arderkrag 08-25-07, 03:49 AM	Well, I'm not an authority on Planescape, since I've been only barely exposed to it.
Mirtek 08-25-07, 06:24 AM	Awww. We decided to make Asmodeus a god for Pathfinder months ago. Welcome to the party, WotC! :) Actually TSR made him a deity in 1e and 2e decades ago. Welcome to the party, Paizo :P A rather minor goddess of undead took over when Orcus died. As well as a nasty hit to the Tana'ri forces in the blood war. IIRC the hit wasn't very nasty at all. The demons more concerned with the blood war complained that they were missing the undead troops of Orcus and Kiraranshalee quickly responded by providing the same troops. For starters, there will be a major civil war (well, more than usual) in the Abyss, as the Demon Lords fight for the title of Prince of Demons. I dond't think they fighting could ever grow any bigger. "Prince of Demons" is actually a pretty worthless title, it only satisfies some egos, but nothing more. It's not as if there's a sliver more stability while someone holds the title as opposed to times when currently no one holds the title.
Mula 08-25-07, 12:44 PM	I don’t think that the PH1 having a deity entry called Asmodeus has anything to do with the Greyhawk/Planescape Great Wheel continuum. Remember, 4E won’t use Greyhawk as the default setting—apparently, it’s something more general (“points of light in a dark world”) and something that uses real world mythology to evoke vivid fantasy concepts. Asmodeus is a name and a concept that brings to mind an evil deity much better than Hextor or Nerull (in the minds of the general populace). That’s how I see it.
Arbourean 08-25-07, 01:37 PM	I don't much care for Asmodeus being promoted to godhood. In fact I don't care much of him at all. I don't know why exactly, but the more powerful he becomes the more I wish to see him dethroned. You and every other Devil except Geryon, and all know what happened to him. :D
Kain Darkwind 08-25-07, 03:14 PM	Actually TSR made him a deity in 1e and 2e decades ago. Welcome to the party, Paizo :P That's not how it is supposed to work, Mirtek. You are supposed to say 'Actually Green Ronin made him a deity at the beginning of 3e years ago. Welcome to the party, Paizo' Then *I* get to say that TSR made him a deity decades ago. You're screwing up the rotation.
I, Tyrant 08-26-07, 03:12 PM	You and every other Devil except Geryon, and all know what happened to him. :D Actually I never cared for Asmodeus either, I always thought of him as a rather lame arch-fiend and could not understand why people love him as a super villain, to me he comes off as two dimensional.
Khadmus 08-26-07, 03:32 PM	Actually I never cared for Asmodeus either, I always thought of him as a rather lame arch-fiend and could not understand why people love him as a super villain, to me he comes off as two dimensional. It's fun to be part of a horde.
The_Shaman 08-26-07, 04:12 PM	Technically, I see no reason why he can't be... I mean, in FR a being of apparently lesser power - Gargauth, who was iirc deposed/unsuccessful as one of the 9, is a minor deity. Therefore, it is not impossible that Asmodeus be given some divine power, but it is mostly a flavor decision. Then again, I think it will change the flavor of the archdevils/demons, but I'm not sure if that'd be a bad idea.
ripvanwormer 08-27-07, 10:31 AM	I don’t think that the PH1 having a deity entry called Asmodeus has anything to do with the Greyhawk/Planescape Great Wheel continuum. Remember, 4E won’t use Greyhawk as the default setting—apparently, it’s something more general (“points of light in a dark world”) and something that uses real world mythology to evoke vivid fantasy concepts. I disagree. The Player's Handbook Asmodeus will be the Asmodeus for most people, including any designers who might use Planescape or the Great Wheel in the future. They're not going to portray him one way in the PH and then turn around and portray him another way in the Manual of the Planes. He might not be a god in 4e Forgotten Realms or 4e Eberron, but I think it's safe to say that in any use of the Great Wheel cosmology, he will be. The Great Wheel is simply not as differentiated from core as those other two settings - perhaps because it contains real world mythology, there's no need for it to be.
Lobsopdoy 08-29-07, 06:31 PM	Personally, I'm glad that he finally got to break into divinity. I've always thought he was cool. I don't know quite why, but he's always had a certain je nais se quo about him. Plus the awesomeness from The Reckoning.
setekh 08-30-07, 11:54 AM	Personally, I'm glad that he finally got to break into divinity. I've always thought he was cool. I don't know quite why, but he's always had a certain je nais se quo about him. Plus the awesomeness from The Reckoning. What exactly was the reckoning? I probably missed something important (Wouldn't be the first time) But I've only actually heard snippets (Mostly from FC2)
Witch 08-30-07, 12:09 PM	What exactly was the reckoning? Asmodeus played out all the Lords of the Nine against eachother (excepting Geryon). Two groups each sought to attack him and take his place. He maneuvered them just where he wanted - at the end, Geryon blew his horn, and the pit fiend generals of the Lords rebelled against their masters, firmly reestablishing Asmodeus' authority.
Lobsopdoy 08-30-07, 05:20 PM	Asmodeus played out all the Lords of the Nine against eachother (excepting Geryon). Two groups each sought to attack him and take his place. He maneuvered them just where he wanted - at the end, Geryon blew his horn, and the pit fiend generals of the Lords rebelled against their masters, firmly reestablishing Asmodeus' authority. and gave him the opportunity to switch around the status quo as he desired