Asmodeus with Divine Ranks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Asmodeus with Divine Ranks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TalonofTiamat
08-16-07, 03:56 PM A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks?
Kain Darkwind
08-16-07, 04:13 PM The Gates of Hell Chapter 9 (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88) has stats for a DvR 18 Asmodeus.

My divine rank 11 (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=6) version of Asmodeus can be found here.

Basically it depends on how you see them. I recently updated my Asmodeus to take away the DvR, because I felt he should be separate from but equal to gods. Doesn't mean that a DvR system can't work well for your archfiends.
Bob the Efreet
08-17-07, 03:50 AM A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks?

Divine rank implies that the archfiends are deities. Although in previous editions they have been described as such, I feel that's really only a symptom of designers not wanting to create a new category to explain their amazing prowess and using godhood as a short cut.

It seems to me that the flavour of such entities implies that although they are in some ways the equals of gods, they should not be divine in and of themselves. Except for the archfiends that are evil gods in addition to their archfiend status.
Bloodsoul
08-17-07, 08:43 AM I always thought of making them DvR0; not quite as divine as Deities, but certainly a leap above common devils and demons; it'd just be a matter of which abilities to overide or not, depending on which is better (Quasi or their natural ebil stuff).
TalonofTiamat
08-17-07, 11:43 AM I always thought of making them DvR0; not quite as divine as Deities, but certainly a leap above common devils and demons; it'd just be a matter of which abilities to overide or not, depending on which is better (Quasi or their natural ebil stuff).
This was what I said, but he feels that Asmodeus deserves at least 1.
Witch
08-17-07, 12:46 PM To make him able to deal with all the Greater Gods in hell, he needs DvR +- 18, or something which makes him the equivalent in power to that.
Kain Darkwind
08-17-07, 02:32 PM That's not absolute. An artifact that negates divine abilities within Malsheem would keep most gods from wandering down there to take him out, since their ability to effortlessly slay millions of pit fiends would be severely reduced, possibly to the point where they could be harmed/killed. It wouldn't be increasing his power at all though, merely threatening theirs.

If you aren't using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 18 is no use against DvR 19 or 20. If you are using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 16 is sufficient to hold one's own against all greater gods.

Regarding Asmodeus and godhood, allow me to paraphrase JLU's Lex Luthor.

"Godhood? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up if I was a god?"
Witch
08-17-07, 02:41 PM I didn't go absolutes, though - I allowed for something which raised his power level, such as the artifact you suggest. Considering that I consider personal power as relative to another's, the weakening of other's power comes down to empowering Asmodeus himself.
Thegans
08-17-07, 03:37 PM A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks?

If you go by Fiendish Codex 2 Asmodeous is not divine but channels the divine energy harvested from souls. Basically he might be able to use divine abilities but it would probably take up too much of the harvested energy. I would say if you want to give him divine ranks modify him into an abomination that way he is more divine then normal devils but far enough that he will still be trying to obtain godhood.

That's not absolute. An artifact that negates divine abilities within Malsheem would keep most gods from wandering down there to take him out, since their ability to effortlessly slay millions of pit fiends would be severely reduced, possibly to the point where they could be harmed/killed. It wouldn't be increasing his power at all though, merely threatening theirs.

If you aren't using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 18 is no use against DvR 19 or 20. If you are using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 16 is sufficient to hold one's own against all greater gods.

Regarding Asmodeus and godhood, allow me to paraphrase JLU's Lex Luthor.

"Godhood? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up if I was a god?"

Well you couldn't do whatever you wanted and you would have to give spells to people. Don't forget about all the commune spells. Although if you go by the codex that is what Asmodeous wants for some reason.
TalonofTiamat
08-17-07, 10:21 PM I'm not particularily savvy when it comes to devils, but from what I've heard my friend talking about how Asmodeus came about his power, it seems the gods are not allowed to interfere with him. That could be why they don't do anything about him. Though this is just what I've gathered from what my friend has read from the FCII.

I personally don't think he needs anything higher than DvR0. That way, he gets some spark of divinity, but isn't bound to any followers.
Mojo_Rat
08-18-07, 03:22 AM As to the question about what Azmodeus's Chaotic counterpart is thats questionable. Technically speaking as Prince of Demons Demogorgon is.

However It was stated in fiendish codex 1 (and problaby fairly evident from a lot of previous stories and fluff written) Orcus is the Demon closest to actual godhood.

I think its best to just leave them in an almost divine state and assume any divinity might come from souls harvested.
setekh
08-18-07, 07:15 AM I'm not particularily savvy when it comes to devils, but from what I've heard my friend talking about how Asmodeus came about his power, it seems the gods are not allowed to interfere with him. That could be why they don't do anything about him. Though this is just what I've gathered from what my friend has read from the FCII.

I personally don't think he needs anything higher than DvR0. That way, he gets some spark of divinity, but isn't bound to any followers.

Only the lawful ones technically, but it's feasible that the Chaotic ones just don't care enough to bump off the up start whiny angel.

(I don't like Devils :P
Bob the Efreet
08-18-07, 02:26 PM As to the question about what Asmodeus' Chaotic counterpart is thats questionable. Technically speaking as Prince of Demons Demogorgon is.

However It was stated in fiendish codex 1 (and probably fairly evident from a lot of previous stories and fluff written) Orcus is the Demon closest to actual godhood.

Orcus used to be a god. He lost his divinity when he died. Demogorgon is a god, as is Lolth. Baphomet and Kostchtchie might also be deities, but I don't remember for sure.
TalonofTiamat
08-18-07, 03:22 PM Since when is Demogorgon a god?
Orodruin
08-18-07, 09:42 PM Since when is Demogorgon a god?

He isn't. To my knowledge only Lolth has ascended to godhood among the "classic" archfiends.
Bob the Efreet
08-20-07, 01:46 AM Since when is Demogorgon a god?

He's the god of the ixitxachitl. Potentially other deep-sea horrors, as well.
420
08-20-07, 02:19 AM He's the god of the ixitxachitl. Potentially other deep-sea horrors, as well.

Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 123)

Archfiends and Clerics
The demon lords and archdevils described in this chapter cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods. They have worshipers who perform sacrifices in their name, but they don't run organized religions the way gods do.

-420
Shemeska the Marauder
08-20-07, 09:26 AM To my knowledge only Lolth has ascended to godhood among the "classic" archfiends.

Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess.

2e had a number of the archfiends embracing divinity in conjunction to their archfiend status, some seeking it, and some (like Graz'zt) actively avoiding creating cults of worshippers because they viewed the power granted by divinity as not worth the restrictions and imposed responsibilities that it would shackle them to. 3e initially retroactively stripped divinity from every archfiend because initially they were big monsters, and only in subsequent books was their position versus gods in the politics of the lower planes put back into a more complex and rational position (along with their printed stats being reduced to "aspect/avatar only").

However we're still knee-deep in muddy water at the moment regarding the divinity or not, past or present, or various archfiends because of how different designers have tried to approach the topic, or reconcile the fiends' neutering in the BoVD with earlier lore. In Dragon 349*, Orcus is presented as having embraced divinity prior to his death at Kiaransalee's hands, so while at present he hasn't re-established his cults enough to regain that status, he had a formal grip on divinity in the past (but with a pointedly non-divine Graz'zt, and a questionably divine Demogorgon more than holding their own against one another, I think that says something about the relevancy of divinity in the politics and power struggles of the Abyssal Lords).

*And future authors may have a different take on the topic than I did
Duelpersonality
08-21-07, 03:04 PM Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess.

I believe that that is only her origin in the FR campaign setting.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-21-07, 03:45 PM I believe that that is only her origin in the FR campaign setting.

The recent non-FR Drow of the Underdark sourcebook includes her origin as Araushnee, and so did Lolth's writeup in the last issue of Dragon.
Duelpersonality
08-21-07, 04:00 PM The recent non-FR Drow of the Underdark sourcebook includes her origin as Araushnee, and so did Lolth's writeup in the last issue of Dragon.

Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU.

Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :)
Treymordin
08-21-07, 05:09 PM Lolth is one thing, but to make Asmodeus, who is based on a biblical demon a god, is another.
Witch
08-21-07, 05:16 PM Lolth is one thing, but to make Asmodeus, who is based on a biblical demon a god, is another.
Why is this an issue? After all, the word "god" means something else entirely in biblical texts than it does in D&D.
Saedar
08-21-07, 06:44 PM Also, it would be important to note that there is precident in DnD for a non-diety to be of equal/greater power than the gods themselves. The Lady of Pain is able to bar divine beings from Sigil and she is adamently described as most deffinetly not a diety. Thus, you could have Asmodeus be of similar design. Ignore his writeups in BoVD and The Fiendish Codex, except as using them as an Aspect, and simply make him a being that goes beyond mere statblocks.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-21-07, 08:41 PM Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :)

Invite me to argue and I shall!

I wouldn't, because she doesn't have any innate connection to the plane itself. She has the power to force the plane to locally adhere to her whims, but she doesn't represent the Abyss on any fundamental level like the tanar'ri/obyriths/loumara do.

For instance, let's say a mortal human wizard slays the Grand Sultan of the Efreet and forces the nobles of the City of Brass to obey him or die. He might nominally hold the title of the efreet he killed, he might wield incredible power, but he's still not a being of elemental flame, he's not an efreet, not even a fire mephit. Lolth on some level is in a similar situation in the Abyss. She controls a layer of the plane, but she doesn't, and likely never will share the same symbiotic relationship with the plane and raw CE that the actual fiends possess at the most basic level.
Thegans
08-21-07, 10:37 PM Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU.

Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :)

Actually I think the correct term is demon lord with prince being reserved for Demogorgan.

Invite me to argue and I shall!

I wouldn't, because she doesn't have any innate connection to the plane itself. She has the power to force the plane to locally adhere to her whims, but she doesn't represent the Abyss on any fundamental level like the tanar'ri/obyriths/loumara do.

For instance, let's say a mortal human wizard slays the Grand Sultan of the Efreet and forces the nobles of the City of Brass to obey him or die. He might nominally hold the title of the efreet he killed, he might wield incredible power, but he's still not a being of elemental flame, he's not an efreet, not even a fire mephit. Lolth on some level is in a similar situation in the Abyss. She controls a layer of the plane, but she doesn't, and likely never will share the same symbiotic relationship with the plane and raw CE that the actual fiends possess at the most basic level.

Are we talking about the nut job Lolth that has the drow constantly back stabbing and slaughtering each other?
Thorsbjorn
08-21-07, 11:35 PM Since when is Demogorgon a god?

The 1st Ed Deities and Demigods granted lesser godhood to Demogorgon, Jubilex, Orucs, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, the Elemental Princes of Evil, and the slaad Ssendam and Ygorl.
Orodruin
08-23-07, 06:59 PM Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess.

Ah, but that's NOW. Back in the days of 1st ed, she was definitely an archfiend along with the rest of the rest of the demon lords, which is what I meant by "classic". Of course, now she's been retconned into something rather different, but hey, who are we to say? I mean, if Adimarchus and Baalzebul could be considered "archfiends", she would probably have qualified back before she regained her divinity.
CzarGarrett
08-24-07, 08:42 AM I think its reasonable to have "virtual divinity" with a lot of these beings.

Normally, someone like Asmodeus would just be a really super powerful Devil. However, while in Baator/Nessus, he could be considered to have DR X, which gives him power on his home plane to rule, but doesn't actually have any divinity.
Ornum
08-24-07, 09:34 AM Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU.

Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :)

I don't think that you become a Demon Lord by default, but if you meant "Abyssal Lord", then I'll concede the point (there is a difference). I mean, Kali rules a layer of the Abyss, and she is all goddess and not demonic. Same goes for Chemosh, and I believe Kanchelsis also rules a layer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TalonofTiamat 08-16-07, 03:56 PM	A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks?
Kain Darkwind 08-16-07, 04:13 PM	The Gates of Hell Chapter 9 (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88) has stats for a DvR 18 Asmodeus. My divine rank 11 (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=6) version of Asmodeus can be found here. Basically it depends on how you see them. I recently updated my Asmodeus to take away the DvR, because I felt he should be separate from but equal to gods. Doesn't mean that a DvR system can't work well for your archfiends.
Bob the Efreet 08-17-07, 03:50 AM	A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks? Divine rank implies that the archfiends are deities. Although in previous editions they have been described as such, I feel that's really only a symptom of designers not wanting to create a new category to explain their amazing prowess and using godhood as a short cut. It seems to me that the flavour of such entities implies that although they are in some ways the equals of gods, they should not be divine in and of themselves. Except for the archfiends that are evil gods in addition to their archfiend status.
Bloodsoul 08-17-07, 08:43 AM	I always thought of making them DvR0; not quite as divine as Deities, but certainly a leap above common devils and demons; it'd just be a matter of which abilities to overide or not, depending on which is better (Quasi or their natural ebil stuff).
TalonofTiamat 08-17-07, 11:43 AM	I always thought of making them DvR0; not quite as divine as Deities, but certainly a leap above common devils and demons; it'd just be a matter of which abilities to overide or not, depending on which is better (Quasi or their natural ebil stuff). This was what I said, but he feels that Asmodeus deserves at least 1.
Witch 08-17-07, 12:46 PM	To make him able to deal with all the Greater Gods in hell, he needs DvR +- 18, or something which makes him the equivalent in power to that.
Kain Darkwind 08-17-07, 02:32 PM	That's not absolute. An artifact that negates divine abilities within Malsheem would keep most gods from wandering down there to take him out, since their ability to effortlessly slay millions of pit fiends would be severely reduced, possibly to the point where they could be harmed/killed. It wouldn't be increasing his power at all though, merely threatening theirs. If you aren't using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 18 is no use against DvR 19 or 20. If you are using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 16 is sufficient to hold one's own against all greater gods. Regarding Asmodeus and godhood, allow me to paraphrase JLU's Lex Luthor. "Godhood? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up if I was a god?"
Witch 08-17-07, 02:41 PM	I didn't go absolutes, though - I allowed for something which raised his power level, such as the artifact you suggest. Considering that I consider personal power as relative to another's, the weakening of other's power comes down to empowering Asmodeus himself.
Thegans 08-17-07, 03:37 PM	A friend and I were having a discussion, and he concluded that Asmodeus is deserving of some divine ranks. How many, if any, do you guys think he deserves. And what of his Chaotic counterpart Demogorgon? Does he too deserve divine ranks? If you go by Fiendish Codex 2 Asmodeous is not divine but channels the divine energy harvested from souls. Basically he might be able to use divine abilities but it would probably take up too much of the harvested energy. I would say if you want to give him divine ranks modify him into an abomination that way he is more divine then normal devils but far enough that he will still be trying to obtain godhood. That's not absolute. An artifact that negates divine abilities within Malsheem would keep most gods from wandering down there to take him out, since their ability to effortlessly slay millions of pit fiends would be severely reduced, possibly to the point where they could be harmed/killed. It wouldn't be increasing his power at all though, merely threatening theirs. If you aren't using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 18 is no use against DvR 19 or 20. If you are using Dicefreak rank checks, DvR 16 is sufficient to hold one's own against all greater gods. Regarding Asmodeus and godhood, allow me to paraphrase JLU's Lex Luthor. "Godhood? Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up if I was a god?" Well you couldn't do whatever you wanted and you would have to give spells to people. Don't forget about all the commune spells. Although if you go by the codex that is what Asmodeous wants for some reason.
TalonofTiamat 08-17-07, 10:21 PM	I'm not particularily savvy when it comes to devils, but from what I've heard my friend talking about how Asmodeus came about his power, it seems the gods are not allowed to interfere with him. That could be why they don't do anything about him. Though this is just what I've gathered from what my friend has read from the FCII. I personally don't think he needs anything higher than DvR0. That way, he gets some spark of divinity, but isn't bound to any followers.
Mojo_Rat 08-18-07, 03:22 AM	As to the question about what Azmodeus's Chaotic counterpart is thats questionable. Technically speaking as Prince of Demons Demogorgon is. However It was stated in fiendish codex 1 (and problaby fairly evident from a lot of previous stories and fluff written) Orcus is the Demon closest to actual godhood. I think its best to just leave them in an almost divine state and assume any divinity might come from souls harvested.
setekh 08-18-07, 07:15 AM	I'm not particularily savvy when it comes to devils, but from what I've heard my friend talking about how Asmodeus came about his power, it seems the gods are not allowed to interfere with him. That could be why they don't do anything about him. Though this is just what I've gathered from what my friend has read from the FCII. I personally don't think he needs anything higher than DvR0. That way, he gets some spark of divinity, but isn't bound to any followers. Only the lawful ones technically, but it's feasible that the Chaotic ones just don't care enough to bump off the up start whiny angel. (I don't like Devils :P
Bob the Efreet 08-18-07, 02:26 PM	As to the question about what Asmodeus' Chaotic counterpart is thats questionable. Technically speaking as Prince of Demons Demogorgon is. However It was stated in fiendish codex 1 (and probably fairly evident from a lot of previous stories and fluff written) Orcus is the Demon closest to actual godhood. Orcus used to be a god. He lost his divinity when he died. Demogorgon is a god, as is Lolth. Baphomet and Kostchtchie might also be deities, but I don't remember for sure.
TalonofTiamat 08-18-07, 03:22 PM	Since when is Demogorgon a god?
Orodruin 08-18-07, 09:42 PM	Since when is Demogorgon a god? He isn't. To my knowledge only Lolth has ascended to godhood among the "classic" archfiends.
Bob the Efreet 08-20-07, 01:46 AM	Since when is Demogorgon a god? He's the god of the ixitxachitl. Potentially other deep-sea horrors, as well.
420 08-20-07, 02:19 AM	He's the god of the ixitxachitl. Potentially other deep-sea horrors, as well. Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 123) Archfiends and Clerics The demon lords and archdevils described in this chapter cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods. They have worshipers who perform sacrifices in their name, but they don't run organized religions the way gods do. -420
Shemeska the Marauder 08-20-07, 09:26 AM	To my knowledge only Lolth has ascended to godhood among the "classic" archfiends. Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess. 2e had a number of the archfiends embracing divinity in conjunction to their archfiend status, some seeking it, and some (like Graz'zt) actively avoiding creating cults of worshippers because they viewed the power granted by divinity as not worth the restrictions and imposed responsibilities that it would shackle them to. 3e initially retroactively stripped divinity from every archfiend because initially they were big monsters, and only in subsequent books was their position versus gods in the politics of the lower planes put back into a more complex and rational position (along with their printed stats being reduced to "aspect/avatar only"). However we're still knee-deep in muddy water at the moment regarding the divinity or not, past or present, or various archfiends because of how different designers have tried to approach the topic, or reconcile the fiends' neutering in the BoVD with earlier lore. In Dragon 349, Orcus is presented as having embraced divinity prior to his death at Kiaransalee's hands, so while at present he hasn't re-established his cults enough to regain that status, he had a formal grip on divinity in the past (but with a pointedly non-divine Graz'zt, and a questionably divine Demogorgon more than holding their own against one another, I think that says something about the relevancy of divinity in the politics and power struggles of the Abyssal Lords). And future authors may have a different take on the topic than I did
Duelpersonality 08-21-07, 03:04 PM	Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess. I believe that that is only her origin in the FR campaign setting.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-21-07, 03:45 PM	I believe that that is only her origin in the FR campaign setting. The recent non-FR Drow of the Underdark sourcebook includes her origin as Araushnee, and so did Lolth's writeup in the last issue of Dragon.
Duelpersonality 08-21-07, 04:00 PM	The recent non-FR Drow of the Underdark sourcebook includes her origin as Araushnee, and so did Lolth's writeup in the last issue of Dragon. Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU. Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :)
Treymordin 08-21-07, 05:09 PM	Lolth is one thing, but to make Asmodeus, who is based on a biblical demon a god, is another.
Witch 08-21-07, 05:16 PM	Lolth is one thing, but to make Asmodeus, who is based on a biblical demon a god, is another. Why is this an issue? After all, the word "god" means something else entirely in biblical texts than it does in D&D.
Saedar 08-21-07, 06:44 PM	Also, it would be important to note that there is precident in DnD for a non-diety to be of equal/greater power than the gods themselves. The Lady of Pain is able to bar divine beings from Sigil and she is adamently described as most deffinetly not a diety. Thus, you could have Asmodeus be of similar design. Ignore his writeups in BoVD and The Fiendish Codex, except as using them as an Aspect, and simply make him a being that goes beyond mere statblocks.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-21-07, 08:41 PM	Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :) Invite me to argue and I shall! I wouldn't, because she doesn't have any innate connection to the plane itself. She has the power to force the plane to locally adhere to her whims, but she doesn't represent the Abyss on any fundamental level like the tanar'ri/obyriths/loumara do. For instance, let's say a mortal human wizard slays the Grand Sultan of the Efreet and forces the nobles of the City of Brass to obey him or die. He might nominally hold the title of the efreet he killed, he might wield incredible power, but he's still not a being of elemental flame, he's not an efreet, not even a fire mephit. Lolth on some level is in a similar situation in the Abyss. She controls a layer of the plane, but she doesn't, and likely never will share the same symbiotic relationship with the plane and raw CE that the actual fiends possess at the most basic level.
Thegans 08-21-07, 10:37 PM	Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU. Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :) Actually I think the correct term is demon lord with prince being reserved for Demogorgan. Invite me to argue and I shall! I wouldn't, because she doesn't have any innate connection to the plane itself. She has the power to force the plane to locally adhere to her whims, but she doesn't represent the Abyss on any fundamental level like the tanar'ri/obyriths/loumara do. For instance, let's say a mortal human wizard slays the Grand Sultan of the Efreet and forces the nobles of the City of Brass to obey him or die. He might nominally hold the title of the efreet he killed, he might wield incredible power, but he's still not a being of elemental flame, he's not an efreet, not even a fire mephit. Lolth on some level is in a similar situation in the Abyss. She controls a layer of the plane, but she doesn't, and likely never will share the same symbiotic relationship with the plane and raw CE that the actual fiends possess at the most basic level. Are we talking about the nut job Lolth that has the drow constantly back stabbing and slaughtering each other?
Thorsbjorn 08-21-07, 11:35 PM	Since when is Demogorgon a god? The 1st Ed Deities and Demigods granted lesser godhood to Demogorgon, Jubilex, Orucs, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, the Elemental Princes of Evil, and the slaad Ssendam and Ygorl.
Orodruin 08-23-07, 06:59 PM	Lolth is a deity yes, but she began as a god in the first place (as Araushnee). Her "archfiend" status, is somewhere between questionable and in name only, because she lacks the sort of connection to the Abyss and its alignment that the actual obyrith/tanar'ri/loumara possess. Ah, but that's NOW. Back in the days of 1st ed, she was definitely an archfiend along with the rest of the rest of the demon lords, which is what I meant by "classic". Of course, now she's been retconned into something rather different, but hey, who are we to say? I mean, if Adimarchus and Baalzebul could be considered "archfiends", she would probably have qualified back before she regained her divinity.
CzarGarrett 08-24-07, 08:42 AM	I think its reasonable to have "virtual divinity" with a lot of these beings. Normally, someone like Asmodeus would just be a really super powerful Devil. However, while in Baator/Nessus, he could be considered to have DR X, which gives him power on his home plane to rule, but doesn't actually have any divinity.
Ornum 08-24-07, 09:34 AM	Ah, that certainly makes for a bit more consistency, if confusing in the short term. I really need to get my hands on DotU. Even so, I'd still put her clearly in the archfiend category. Ruling a plane of the Abyss (unless DotU also moved the Demonweb out of the Abyss) makes a being a Demon Prince. Given the chaotic nature of demons to begin with, I don't see why being a deity would prevent a being from also being an archfiend. What one does with said status is (by the nature of the Abyss) going to vary from being to being. As always, feel free to argue the point. :) I don't think that you become a Demon Lord by default, but if you meant "Abyssal Lord", then I'll concede the point (there is a difference). I mean, Kali rules a layer of the Abyss, and she is all goddess and not demonic. Same goes for Chemosh, and I believe Kanchelsis also rules a layer.