Avatars * [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Avatars * [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jim Johnny
03-28-07, 09:46 AM I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign.

Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane?
Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane?
The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane?

Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form?
...
Khael
03-28-07, 10:26 AM No, deities can still interact by way of communing, magic, dreams etc. Assuming of coruse they don't send a herald or similar physical manifestation of their will.

Yes.

No, it's a spark of power driving the avatar, not even enough to power a quasti-god, so outside of special events (a time of troubl-esque scenerio) the power of the deity wouldn'tb e affected.
The faith of the followers who watched their gods will getting defied successfully? That'll change, thoguh it could be in either direction (Our god is weak/so faith is too weak, or our god is fallen, flee! for two examples)

Yes, but only on special occassions, and even then only on his own 'land' (holy site, what have you), but not to directly affect anything beyond that place (For reasons I have a tendency to harp on about - the balance of power namely if god X can come kill the evil army, their god can go crush god X's city, God X's friends will come help and so on. So they don't go affect anything that isn't their direct business).
Equally applicable for holy site can be breaches of portfolio - a wizard planning to magically create a blackhole big enough to consume the universe is going to either get a talking to from the god of magic, or by his servants at the very least.

This of course is only in terms of D&D-style gods. If I should ever use something like the elenium's younger gods the above stuff is thrown out the window.
Jim Johnny
03-28-07, 11:13 AM I also like to think that a slain avatar won't greatly affct the Deity. Although it will surely infuriate him/her.

But i remember that when Bane's Avatar was slain in the FR setting there were changes in the power of that God.

Also let me remind you of the death of Mystryl (later reborn as Mystra) when it was slain by Karsus. We are talking about a slain deity here so it should somehow manifest in the material plane otherwise how could it be slain??

Another question that sprangs up from that ii a Deity dies in the material plane is it lost from every plane? Or it simply loses touch with that plane but retains his/her power with other planes?

Also i would like to think that a Deity can interact slightly with things in the material plane when these are strongly connected to their portfolio.
For instance Umberlee to cause a storm in the sea.
Of course i like to think that there is something like an unwritten rule that keeps them from interact to much because this will raise oppositions by other deities or even battles. Like Shaundakul and Beshada. And that is why they prefer to put their followers to do the job.

what do you think?
Praedoran
03-28-07, 11:14 AM I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign.

Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane?
Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane?
The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane?

Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form?
...

My deities can communicate with the Material Plane, but they remain unable to interact with it. Thus relying on Avatars to represent their power.

Each Avatar in my game gets his own Planet, created as he likes and populated by his faithful. Under normal circumstances, they cannot visit other worlds or even the main world. They must have permission, or be under some circumstance that allows them to interfere. For example, if an Orc Warlord pays no tribute to the God of War or any other Deity and then attacks some of the Faithful, an Avatar can personally smite them. There's also other ways around the laws of divine interaction, but they come at a cost. (Think of Mortal Combat 2, when Shao Khan found out that he had lost his Godhood when he set foot on Earth)

As for an Avatar's death? Well it does have an impact on faith, but more for the symbolic reason of seeing your greatest hope of victory struck down. However, they are still Avatars of a Deity, and there's no reason why a God wouldn't just resurrect the Avatar.
Khael
03-28-07, 11:42 AM I also like to think that a slain avatar won't greatly affct the Deity. Although it will surely infuriate him/her.

But i remember that when Bane's Avatar was slain in the FR setting there were changes in the power of that God.

Also let me remind you of the death of Mystryl (later reborn as Mystra) when it was slain by Karsus. We are talking about a slain deity here so it should somehow manifest in the material plane otherwise how could it be slain??

Important points here: Mystryl was slain by a spell that literally replaced her with Karsus. No-one knows why she let mim go though with it, but she did.
He in turn was destroyed becasue he had no experience to uphold her portfolio - the weave of magic, I think it is.

In other words, she wasn't slain as manifested.

Another question that sprangs up from that ii a Deity dies in the material plane is it lost from every plane? Or it simply loses touch with that plane but retains his/her power with other planes?

Ah, it depends on the god - some gods are multi-world beings others not. By which I mean some gods (Tiamat for one) has copies in different worlds, others only have one point.

However each world only has one of each god - so if Tiamat's true body is destroyed on Oerth She is dead there. And since the planes of Oerth are part of that world, she is dead there too.
So yes, that god will be dead but another copy of that god MAY eixst on another world, and they won't be affected and probably won't even know about the destruction of their copy.

Also i would like to think that a Deity can interact slightly with things in the material plane when these are strongly connected to their portfolio.
For instance Umberlee to cause a storm in the sea.
Of course i like to think that there is something like an unwritten rule that keeps them from interact to much because this will raise oppositions by other deities or even battles. Like Shaundakul and Beshada. And that is why they prefer to put their followers to do the job.

what do you think?

Those are two different questions:

In the first post you asked how WE use gods. How D&D uses gods is different, so yes Umberlee can cause storms or similar he sea (I think).

And like I said in my post, I beleive there is this unwritten rule (Balance of power. Also known as MAD in real life (Mutually Assured Destruction), the reason no one actually uses nukes outside of testing, becasue if one country does it, the others will all fire too and the world is destroyed.
In the same way if Tiamat goes into full-on war, her alleis will help her, Bahamut and his will fight back, and ultimately either an iovergod will stop them, or they'll all end up dead, whether by killnig each other, or being abandoned by their surviving followers.
So they don't go to full-out war, instead using aspects, avatars, and clerics.)
Evil DM Mk3
03-28-07, 12:28 PM I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign.Happy to oblige!

Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane?No, not theoretically anyway, but the deiaties came to loggerheads last time they started walking around the world and almost ble wit up. Now they all (weeeel, no that is a lie, one doesn't but he is very careful to hide the fact) stay away in a cold war like stand off
Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane?Yes, this is what they are mostly used for.
The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane? The deity of logic and mathematics once described the loss of his avitar as being akin to "Having the point of a white hot compass (he ment the mathematical geometic type, not the map kind, gods the PCs can be thick...) thrust through ones hand. Not even slightly dangerous to ones health, but VERY PAINFUL!!"
Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form?
...Again yes they can, but avoid doing so.
Jim Johnny
03-28-07, 02:36 PM What is the difference between Aspects and Avatars?
I 've never heard of the first, neither in the 2nd nor in the 3rd edition, and i play the game for a handful of years.

Thanks for the information.
My ideas about Avatars and Deities are almost the same with what you suggest. I just wanted to see how others use them. So as to see if i can improve some things.

Another thing that also is kind of coveredd in darkness to me is in what way can someone ascended to divinity and get the portfolio of a fallen deity?
He has to kill the deity first, and i guess this can be done only to the deity's plane? Otherwise why a deity risk its death? And what other Deityies will do?

All these scenarios are way to overpowered. We do not play with such powerful characters and we will probably not do it in the future. (It is more fun seeing your newbie fighter killing that goblin. Of course every thing has a different taste, sometimes epic level campaigns might be fun too) But eitherway i like discussing these things and have them clear in my mind.
Mirtek
03-28-07, 06:01 PM Important points here: Mystryl was slain by a spell that literally replaced her with Karsus. No-one knows why she let mim go though with it, but she did.
He in turn was destroyed becasue he had no experience to uphold her portfolio - the weave of magic, I think it is.

In other words, she wasn't slain as manifested.
She wasn't slain at all by the spell, she slew herself. All the spell did was to give Karsus temporary access to her powers. She then comitted suicide because she saw that the damage to the weave would have become too disastrous by the time she would have gotten her controll back. Thus she killed herself to end the spell prematurely
However each world only has one of each god - so if Tiamat's true body is destroyed on Oerth She is dead there. And since the planes of Oerth are part of that world, she is dead there too.
So yes, that god will be dead but another copy of that god MAY eixst on another world, and they won't be affected and probably won't even know about the destruction of their copy.
That's the new 3.xe version, at least that's the 3.xe version for the FR (it's not clear if this is also the 3.xe version for other campaign settings).

In previous multiverse version of 2e there was only one of each deity, not multiple copies, and the deity resided in her divine realm and from there touched and watched multiple worlds. Slaying this true form of the deity killed her everywhere.

If the deity had merely manifested an avatar on a prime world, slaying this avatar might cause her to lose her divine connection to this world. The deity herself was still sitting within her divine realm, but she is temporarily unable to connect to the prime world where she lost her avatar. Often the destruction of an avatar didn't even mean that, the deity simply continued to influence the world and her connection was not severed.
What is the difference between Aspects and Avatars?
I 've never heard of the first, neither in the 2nd nor in the 3rd edition, and i play the game for a handful of years.
A new 3e invention to justify making minatures of the deities for the D&D Miniatures game. Because even an avatar would be vastly to powerfull for the game (and thus no reason to use such a miniature in a normal except for TPK), they invented the aspects.

They're basically mini-mini-mini-[...]-mini avatars with a CR around 10. Now you have an excuse to have your 10th level party fighting Erythnull and WotC has a reason to sell you an Erythnul miniature for combat.
Jim Johnny
03-29-07, 04:40 AM They're basically mini-mini-mini-[...]-mini avatars with a CR around 10. Now you have an excuse to have your 10th level party fighting Erythnull and WotC has a reason to sell you an Erythnul miniature for combat.

I thought it had to do with the minies ;)
herceg
03-30-07, 06:57 AM I think - beside the miniature-thing - it's not such a bad idea. For groups that prefer 'lower'-level (1-10th) play, defeating the aspect of an evil deity/outsider lord can be the campaign-ending Big Combat Scene.
Jim Johnny
03-30-07, 02:55 PM totally agree.

But at CR around 10 A Deity does not need the Aspects because He/She will probably have plenty of followers to choose from to do what He/She asks.
Avatars are in much more powerful and in less crowdy CRs.

But generally is not a bad idea. Although killing the aspect of a God should trigger a chain of greater events and eventually lead to encountering an Avatar or starting a war. Of course this is a nice campaign idea.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy
03-30-07, 05:25 PM totally agree.

But at CR around 10 A Deity does not need the Aspects because He/She will probably have plenty of followers to choose from to do what He/She asks.
Avatars are in much more powerful and in less crowdy CRs.

But generally is not a bad idea. Although killing the aspect of a God should trigger a chain of greater events and eventually lead to encountering an Avatar or starting a war. Of course this is a nice campaign idea.

Why not allow a deity whom has access to Psionics to use the power Fission just to throw players off. Or any number of deity sized method of getting out of scrapes or testing PCs and checking them out.....Sometimes just to be irritating and other times to test their own devoted.
Jim Johnny
04-04-07, 02:53 PM To discuss about Forgotten Realms specifically:

I recall when reading Faiths and pantheons somewhere saying about Bane, that he dislikes the idea of sending Avatars in Faerun because he was once slain in Avatar form ... etc

SO I guess in FR the idea of Avatars and their Deities are very connected and if an Avatar is killed it causes great problems to its Deity, is that true?
Khael
04-04-07, 03:05 PM Not really.

Bane is a special case, as he was slain in avatar form during the time of troubles, a period when Ao (Overgod) essentially stripped the other gods, except for Helm, of godhood, trapping them in their avatars.
It was during this time Bane was slain, in effect killing him, though he did rise again, as the soul of an god, even one slain doesn't give up way easy.
Which is why Bane doesn't avatars, since he was slain in one.

But outside of the time of troubles, avatars being slain give no porblems to the gods- they just make a new one. It does mean they've been bested in front of followers though.
Kursk
04-04-07, 07:20 PM I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign.

PCs in my game are only ~10th level. Not yet noticed by the gods.

Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane?

In my game they are supreme and can do want they want in this regard.

Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane?

If they want I guess.

The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane?

They can't die they are immortal in my game.

Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form?

If they want to, it'd have to be VERY important though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jim Johnny 03-28-07, 09:46 AM	I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign. Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane? Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane? The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane? Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form? ...
Khael 03-28-07, 10:26 AM	No, deities can still interact by way of communing, magic, dreams etc. Assuming of coruse they don't send a herald or similar physical manifestation of their will. Yes. No, it's a spark of power driving the avatar, not even enough to power a quasti-god, so outside of special events (a time of troubl-esque scenerio) the power of the deity wouldn'tb e affected. The faith of the followers who watched their gods will getting defied successfully? That'll change, thoguh it could be in either direction (Our god is weak/so faith is too weak, or our god is fallen, flee! for two examples) Yes, but only on special occassions, and even then only on his own 'land' (holy site, what have you), but not to directly affect anything beyond that place (For reasons I have a tendency to harp on about - the balance of power namely if god X can come kill the evil army, their god can go crush god X's city, God X's friends will come help and so on. So they don't go affect anything that isn't their direct business). Equally applicable for holy site can be breaches of portfolio - a wizard planning to magically create a blackhole big enough to consume the universe is going to either get a talking to from the god of magic, or by his servants at the very least. This of course is only in terms of D&D-style gods. If I should ever use something like the elenium's younger gods the above stuff is thrown out the window.
Jim Johnny 03-28-07, 11:13 AM	I also like to think that a slain avatar won't greatly affct the Deity. Although it will surely infuriate him/her. But i remember that when Bane's Avatar was slain in the FR setting there were changes in the power of that God. Also let me remind you of the death of Mystryl (later reborn as Mystra) when it was slain by Karsus. We are talking about a slain deity here so it should somehow manifest in the material plane otherwise how could it be slain?? Another question that sprangs up from that ii a Deity dies in the material plane is it lost from every plane? Or it simply loses touch with that plane but retains his/her power with other planes? Also i would like to think that a Deity can interact slightly with things in the material plane when these are strongly connected to their portfolio. For instance Umberlee to cause a storm in the sea. Of course i like to think that there is something like an unwritten rule that keeps them from interact to much because this will raise oppositions by other deities or even battles. Like Shaundakul and Beshada. And that is why they prefer to put their followers to do the job. what do you think?
Praedoran 03-28-07, 11:14 AM	I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign. Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane? Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane? The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane? Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form? ... My deities can communicate with the Material Plane, but they remain unable to interact with it. Thus relying on Avatars to represent their power. Each Avatar in my game gets his own Planet, created as he likes and populated by his faithful. Under normal circumstances, they cannot visit other worlds or even the main world. They must have permission, or be under some circumstance that allows them to interfere. For example, if an Orc Warlord pays no tribute to the God of War or any other Deity and then attacks some of the Faithful, an Avatar can personally smite them. There's also other ways around the laws of divine interaction, but they come at a cost. (Think of Mortal Combat 2, when Shao Khan found out that he had lost his Godhood when he set foot on Earth) As for an Avatar's death? Well it does have an impact on faith, but more for the symbolic reason of seeing your greatest hope of victory struck down. However, they are still Avatars of a Deity, and there's no reason why a God wouldn't just resurrect the Avatar.
Khael 03-28-07, 11:42 AM	I also like to think that a slain avatar won't greatly affct the Deity. Although it will surely infuriate him/her. But i remember that when Bane's Avatar was slain in the FR setting there were changes in the power of that God. Also let me remind you of the death of Mystryl (later reborn as Mystra) when it was slain by Karsus. We are talking about a slain deity here so it should somehow manifest in the material plane otherwise how could it be slain?? Important points here: Mystryl was slain by a spell that literally replaced her with Karsus. No-one knows why she let mim go though with it, but she did. He in turn was destroyed becasue he had no experience to uphold her portfolio - the weave of magic, I think it is. In other words, she wasn't slain as manifested. Another question that sprangs up from that ii a Deity dies in the material plane is it lost from every plane? Or it simply loses touch with that plane but retains his/her power with other planes? Ah, it depends on the god - some gods are multi-world beings others not. By which I mean some gods (Tiamat for one) has copies in different worlds, others only have one point. However each world only has one of each god - so if Tiamat's true body is destroyed on Oerth She is dead there. And since the planes of Oerth are part of that world, she is dead there too. So yes, that god will be dead but another copy of that god MAY eixst on another world, and they won't be affected and probably won't even know about the destruction of their copy. Also i would like to think that a Deity can interact slightly with things in the material plane when these are strongly connected to their portfolio. For instance Umberlee to cause a storm in the sea. Of course i like to think that there is something like an unwritten rule that keeps them from interact to much because this will raise oppositions by other deities or even battles. Like Shaundakul and Beshada. And that is why they prefer to put their followers to do the job. what do you think? Those are two different questions: In the first post you asked how WE use gods. How D&D uses gods is different, so yes Umberlee can cause storms or similar he sea (I think). And like I said in my post, I beleive there is this unwritten rule (Balance of power. Also known as MAD in real life (Mutually Assured Destruction), the reason no one actually uses nukes outside of testing, becasue if one country does it, the others will all fire too and the world is destroyed. In the same way if Tiamat goes into full-on war, her alleis will help her, Bahamut and his will fight back, and ultimately either an iovergod will stop them, or they'll all end up dead, whether by killnig each other, or being abandoned by their surviving followers. So they don't go to full-out war, instead using aspects, avatars, and clerics.)
Evil DM Mk3 03-28-07, 12:28 PM	I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign.Happy to oblige! Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane?No, not theoretically anyway, but the deiaties came to loggerheads last time they started walking around the world and almost ble wit up. Now they all (weeeel, no that is a lie, one doesn't but he is very careful to hide the fact) stay away in a cold war like stand off Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane?Yes, this is what they are mostly used for. The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane? The deity of logic and mathematics once described the loss of his avitar as being akin to "Having the point of a white hot compass (he ment the mathematical geometic type, not the map kind, gods the PCs can be thick...) thrust through ones hand. Not even slightly dangerous to ones health, but VERY PAINFUL!!" Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form? ...Again yes they can, but avoid doing so.
Jim Johnny 03-28-07, 02:36 PM	What is the difference between Aspects and Avatars? I 've never heard of the first, neither in the 2nd nor in the 3rd edition, and i play the game for a handful of years. Thanks for the information. My ideas about Avatars and Deities are almost the same with what you suggest. I just wanted to see how others use them. So as to see if i can improve some things. Another thing that also is kind of coveredd in darkness to me is in what way can someone ascended to divinity and get the portfolio of a fallen deity? He has to kill the deity first, and i guess this can be done only to the deity's plane? Otherwise why a deity risk its death? And what other Deityies will do? All these scenarios are way to overpowered. We do not play with such powerful characters and we will probably not do it in the future. (It is more fun seeing your newbie fighter killing that goblin. Of course every thing has a different taste, sometimes epic level campaigns might be fun too) But eitherway i like discussing these things and have them clear in my mind.
Mirtek 03-28-07, 06:01 PM	Important points here: Mystryl was slain by a spell that literally replaced her with Karsus. No-one knows why she let mim go though with it, but she did. He in turn was destroyed becasue he had no experience to uphold her portfolio - the weave of magic, I think it is. In other words, she wasn't slain as manifested. She wasn't slain at all by the spell, she slew herself. All the spell did was to give Karsus temporary access to her powers. She then comitted suicide because she saw that the damage to the weave would have become too disastrous by the time she would have gotten her controll back. Thus she killed herself to end the spell prematurely However each world only has one of each god - so if Tiamat's true body is destroyed on Oerth She is dead there. And since the planes of Oerth are part of that world, she is dead there too. So yes, that god will be dead but another copy of that god MAY eixst on another world, and they won't be affected and probably won't even know about the destruction of their copy. That's the new 3.xe version, at least that's the 3.xe version for the FR (it's not clear if this is also the 3.xe version for other campaign settings). In previous multiverse version of 2e there was only one of each deity, not multiple copies, and the deity resided in her divine realm and from there touched and watched multiple worlds. Slaying this true form of the deity killed her everywhere. If the deity had merely manifested an avatar on a prime world, slaying this avatar might cause her to lose her divine connection to this world. The deity herself was still sitting within her divine realm, but she is temporarily unable to connect to the prime world where she lost her avatar. Often the destruction of an avatar didn't even mean that, the deity simply continued to influence the world and her connection was not severed. What is the difference between Aspects and Avatars? I 've never heard of the first, neither in the 2nd nor in the 3rd edition, and i play the game for a handful of years. A new 3e invention to justify making minatures of the deities for the D&D Miniatures game. Because even an avatar would be vastly to powerfull for the game (and thus no reason to use such a miniature in a normal except for TPK), they invented the aspects. They're basically mini-mini-mini-[...]-mini avatars with a CR around 10. Now you have an excuse to have your 10th level party fighting Erythnull and WotC has a reason to sell you an Erythnul miniature for combat.
Jim Johnny 03-29-07, 04:40 AM	They're basically mini-mini-mini-[...]-mini avatars with a CR around 10. Now you have an excuse to have your 10th level party fighting Erythnull and WotC has a reason to sell you an Erythnul miniature for combat. I thought it had to do with the minies ;)
herceg 03-30-07, 06:57 AM	I think - beside the miniature-thing - it's not such a bad idea. For groups that prefer 'lower'-level (1-10th) play, defeating the aspect of an evil deity/outsider lord can be the campaign-ending Big Combat Scene.
Jim Johnny 03-30-07, 02:55 PM	totally agree. But at CR around 10 A Deity does not need the Aspects because He/She will probably have plenty of followers to choose from to do what He/She asks. Avatars are in much more powerful and in less crowdy CRs. But generally is not a bad idea. Although killing the aspect of a God should trigger a chain of greater events and eventually lead to encountering an Avatar or starting a war. Of course this is a nice campaign idea.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 03-30-07, 05:25 PM	totally agree. But at CR around 10 A Deity does not need the Aspects because He/She will probably have plenty of followers to choose from to do what He/She asks. Avatars are in much more powerful and in less crowdy CRs. But generally is not a bad idea. Although killing the aspect of a God should trigger a chain of greater events and eventually lead to encountering an Avatar or starting a war. Of course this is a nice campaign idea. Why not allow a deity whom has access to Psionics to use the power Fission just to throw players off. Or any number of deity sized method of getting out of scrapes or testing PCs and checking them out.....Sometimes just to be irritating and other times to test their own devoted.
Jim Johnny 04-04-07, 02:53 PM	To discuss about Forgotten Realms specifically: I recall when reading Faiths and pantheons somewhere saying about Bane, that he dislikes the idea of sending Avatars in Faerun because he was once slain in Avatar form ... etc SO I guess in FR the idea of Avatars and their Deities are very connected and if an Avatar is killed it causes great problems to its Deity, is that true?
Khael 04-04-07, 03:05 PM	Not really. Bane is a special case, as he was slain in avatar form during the time of troubles, a period when Ao (Overgod) essentially stripped the other gods, except for Helm, of godhood, trapping them in their avatars. It was during this time Bane was slain, in effect killing him, though he did rise again, as the soul of an god, even one slain doesn't give up way easy. Which is why Bane doesn't avatars, since he was slain in one. But outside of the time of troubles, avatars being slain give no porblems to the gods- they just make a new one. It does mean they've been bested in front of followers though.
Kursk 04-04-07, 07:20 PM	I would like to hear in what ways you use Avatars in your campaign. PCs in my game are only ~10th level. Not yet noticed by the gods. Do you consider Avatars to be the only way a Deity can appea and interact in the material plane? In my game they are supreme and can do want they want in this regard. Can Avatars be sent to other outer planes different from the Deity's home plane? If they want I guess. The death of an Avatar in th material plane will strongly affect the faith and the divine power of that Deity to this specific material plane? They can't die they are immortal in my game. Can a Deity manifest and interact in non avatar form? If they want to, it'd have to be VERY important though.