Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoriceXII 11-23-07, 07:33 PM	I'm trying to finish putting together a mythos that is based on the Babylonian but makes use to some degree of the Fiendish Codex I and II. What I've come up with so far to add to the pantheon is Dagon and of course Tiamat. I'd appreciate some ideas for what others would fit best.
Space_Dragon 11-24-07, 03:19 AM	Dagon in his original form wasn't an evil god (definetely not more so than, say, the Greek gods). He was a god of agriculture, fertility, and water, and was worshipped by farmers and possibly fishermen. He has been demonized partly because he was the national god of the Phillistines (who are portrayed negatively in the bible), and partly because of Lovecraft's amusing portrayal of him as a timeless fish-demon. In my homebrew, Dagon is Neutral Good, and the creator of the merfolk (though land-dwelling races pray to him as well when fishing or traveling on the sea). If you are going for Middle Eastern mythological accuracy, he should be good or at least neutral. I gave him Good, Travel, Plant, and Animal. Tiamat is the ultimate godess of destruction and evil, basically the Tharizdun of the pantheon. She was vanquished (by either Marduk or Ea, depending on which city state you were from), and is either dead or dormant (in the later case, she should still grant spells to clerics and have demonic minions to command). I'm thinking Evil, Chaos, Destruction, Darkness, and Water for her. Another mean one is Nergul, a god of strife and bloodshed. Interestingly, he is also a sun god; one of the few evil ones I've heard of in history. He's all about war, pain, and so forth. Evil, War, Death, Sun. Ishtar is either CN or CE depending on which version of the myths you pick, with a few of the later portrayals of her leaning CG. Godess of love, passion, beauty, and fertility, but also of jealousy and rage. Associated with the moon. Chaos, Charm, Luck, Moon. Shamash is a neutral or good sun god (I'd have him represent the positive aspects of the sun, such as plant growth and light, and Nergul be the negative ones, like drought and burning heat). Marduk is a LN or LG god of law and leadership. Etc.
Witch 11-24-07, 07:17 AM	Why Dagon? He wasn't an important Babylonian deity, right? And why Tiamat? Isn't she... dead?
Kain_Darkwind 11-24-07, 01:59 PM	I'm trying to finish putting together a mythos that is based on the Babylonian but makes use to some degree of the Fiendish Codex I and II. What I've come up with so far to add to the pantheon is Dagon and of course Tiamat. I'd appreciate some ideas for what others would fit best. You know, Dragon did an issue on this very topic....I'll have to go check which issue (unless someone beats me to it), but it was within a year or two.
The Ubbergeek 11-24-07, 03:28 PM	Why Dagon? He wasn't an important Babylonian deity, right? And why Tiamat? Isn't she... dead? Methink the guy want a more fantasy, Diabloesque (as in, like the pc games) pantheon based on ancient middle east. Not really a very dry and historical one.
GoriceXII 11-25-07, 02:38 PM	Youthink correctly. I COULD do a Babylonian mythology and I have a fair number of sources for that, but I want something that will work with the D&D material I have. I do like to use the actual original sources where possible though. I do intend to put in though these deities: Tammuz/Dumuzi, Ishtar's consort, and Ereshkigal, her sister the goddess of the underworld. Ereshkigal strikes me as being a more lawful deity than Ishtar, there being a number of rules regarding death and such that she herself seems subject to. I might have Tiamat entirely replace Dagon as the evil water god in that case...
Rohano 11-25-07, 10:20 PM	Back when I was writing a campaign setting using Mesopotamian, Babylonian and other Eurasian pantheons, Marduk was alive and, in his seat of power as the current most powerful deity, wielded tablets of fate in either hand. Tiamat was also alive but took a much more subtle role than the "dragon b**** who wants to destroy everything," as she's often described these days. In fact, I had basically rewritten her. Bahamut was present but was more of a mystic than the head male dragon god. Io and the other dragon gods were not present. You'd be surprised how many "daemons" are actually highly praised icons in some cultures. And then there's the Kaballah. But anyway, my favorite form of the Babylonian pantheon is the form it took while Marduk was in charge. After Marduk was gone, I didn't much care for the rest of the changes. Sort of like the Norse pantheon that everyone loves is the one with Thor and Odin in charge, before Ragnarok killed them off and left their children in charge to start a new era. And the same goes for Zeus and Hera at the top of the Greek pantheon. And Quetzalcoatl, in his reborn form, at the head of the Aztec pantheon. I call it the "golden age idolization." We overuse the most epic versions of every icon we have. Not many people even know that Odin and Thor die at Ragnarok, knowing that their children will inherit the burning remnants of Asgard. Not everyone knows that Hercules did more epic quests than every hero in existence put together (except maybe Jason). Not everyone knows who Jason even is, because Jason's era was supposed to be after the decline of the Greek gods, when they took a less active role in the world and reverted to the "burning bush" situation, where they just sorta sit back in their extraplanar thrones, occasionally sending a prophecy to random people, but these subtle acts of meddling with humanity leave long etchings in history, in the way of immediate effects and in the way of extended legacies. Anyway. Don't let me bore you with my constant overuse of prepositional phrases. Stop reading!
GoriceXII 11-28-07, 05:01 AM	Actually, interesting post Rohano. Not to bring up too 'mature' a subject here but for instance that is like how 'christianized' some pagan stories or images can be, removing the blithe degrees of sex or sacrifice done. Anyway, so far I have possibly a modified Dagon, though frankly I like the Lovecraftian one presented--sure it is bilblical demonization but I'm not so much trying to give my players an education in Babylonian mythology as wanting to use the books as they are to put stuff together. Of course I could possibly as suggested use Nergal as that. One thing I am trying to suggest is that gods are also regional and specific in some areas. If there are some suggestions about that I would appreciate hearing them.
Kiioro 11-30-07, 11:20 AM	You can put also Ahura-Mazda like some version of Ao. He was worshipped in what was great iran, close enought to the zone you refer to. If you'll have binders in your campaign, you could try the Book of Abramelin (he traveled from Germany to Babylon, I think) and the Lemegeton Clavicula Salomonis.
GoriceXII 12-02-07, 11:31 PM	Wouldn't that mean I should also include Ahriman?
Kiioro 12-03-07, 12:54 PM	As the Ahriman of pain :lop: or something cool like that =D
Furryhowler 12-07-07, 05:03 AM	Well Tiamat is the goddess of the primordial chaos out of which life sprang - not chaos as in "Limbo" but the thrashing ocean which gave birth to life in all its diversity. The God's feared the chaos of Tiamat and so we get the story of Ea/Marduk defeating the wild chaos and imposing order upon it (creating the world and justifying the position of kings from that point onwards...). She isnt really a goddess from that point onwards but rather served as a representative of the wild (similar to Grendel) that is defeated by Law bringing hero-gods (similar to Beowulf). In Babylonian society she was the defeated chaos (not really inspiring to worship) who justified their social hierarchy....