Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RMajere 01-22-08, 12:32 PM	Was going through the FC1, and came across the Gates of Heaven as a layer of the Abyss. Ruled by the White Guardian Munkir, and the Black Guardian Nekir. Was wondering if anyone either had info about them and their layer, or knows where I can find such info. Thanks. RM
Taeldrin Laesrash 01-22-08, 01:59 PM	Someone asked a similar question not too long ago. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966823)
RMajere 01-22-08, 05:42 PM	Many thanks! RM
RMajere 01-24-08, 11:38 AM	So, while that other thread was a great help; I couldn't help but notice that it ultimately degenerated into a discussion about the good subtype. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with some ideas bubbling around my head, and would like to know if there is anything out there that describes the layer, or if its ever been fleshed out beyond what we know. Because it's either find out about it, or make up something that I think should be appropriate. And I would rather not make it up, if it's already out there...somewhere. RM
ripvanwormer 01-27-08, 07:46 PM	Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with some ideas bubbling around my head, and would like to know if there is anything out there that describes the layer, or if its ever been fleshed out beyond what we know. Nope. You'll have to make it up, or wait for someone else to do so. I imagine it's something created long ago by ancient gods, an imposition into the Abyss by those who (wrongly) thought the plane of Chaotic Evil could be a useful corrective influence instead of a font of endless corruption. I imagine a weathered stone portal carved with elegant script in a forgotten language built on the edge of a narrow, treacherous bridge, thousands of miles in length, hovering over an ocean of boiling filth and anchored to nothing. Naturally, it went all wrong, and the guardians they put in place - whatever they were originally - degenerated into petty tyrants, lording their power over gibbering demon hordes, abusing their power to steal slaves from other layers and planes, and to prevent anyone from using the portal as it was intended.
sciborg3 01-30-08, 11:42 AM	Nice ideas Rip. Consider them stolen.:D
RMajere 01-30-08, 12:33 PM	Agreed. *makes off with ideas* That's something along the lines of what I was going to do. Something with a long hallway, staircase (cliché I know), or the bridge idea. I also was thinking a divided realm, half in eternal harsh light, and the other half in darkness. Sort of a yin/yang idea playing off the white and black guardians. Flavor wise I was thinking about making the layer a second chance for those who died and thought they should have gone to the heavens (or an appropriate good aligned plane), so travel to the plane, go through trials (or fight your way to the portal) and go to heaven...... Albeit the idea needs work and a little fleshing out, but that's basically some of the ideas I had. (Rip...yours were better):weep: ... RM
Telulu 01-30-08, 03:19 PM	The book Anger of Angels does a great job of expalining all the layers.
ripvanwormer 01-31-08, 01:15 PM	The book Anger of Angels does a great job of expalining all the layers. Of the Abyss? No, it doesn't. It has a very short gazetteer of Heaven and Hell, but it doesn't use the D&D cosmology. It's a good, worthwhile book, don't get me wrong, but it's primarily about angels, not demons.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 01-31-08, 02:10 PM	I would probably make the two guardians at eternal war with each other. the white one fights to open the gates so that the celestials can invade. the black one wishes to unlock the gates so that the demons can flood the heavens.
mato_hibiki 01-31-08, 03:08 PM	... Wait. Wait wait wait. They're fighting to open the gates? BOTH of them? Do you realize how that sounds? :mad:
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 01-31-08, 03:43 PM	... Wait. Wait wait wait. They're fighting to open the gates? BOTH of them? Do you realize how that sounds? :mad: just an idea and it sounds awesome.:cool:
mato_hibiki 01-31-08, 04:13 PM	... Right. Awesome... Like two guys fighting over pushing the 'door open' button for an elevator. Yeash...
RMajere 02-01-08, 11:55 AM	In theory that sort of idea could work depending on the gate. Whomever opens it first determines what can pass through it. So if the white guardian opens it only good creatures can pass through, and vise versa for the black guardian. That way it doesn't sound so absurd...I think. :P RM
celestialkin 02-01-08, 12:28 PM	I like the idea as well, but as there is almost no information on them it really laves the possibilities as to what they are and do very open each individual DM (which I both like and hate). They were only listed as names in Monster Mythology (1983) without even being given a layer number, then in 3.x their layer was named. That was it. Based on the IRL religious characters they were based off I would personally say they have something to do with judgment and maybe redemption in the afterlife/abyss. Maybe they serve has judges (good and bad cop style) for souls who were evil, but managed to see the errors of their ways at their last moments and attempted to redeem themselves. Maybe for souls who were good in life, but did some horrible thing at the end for whatever reason. Maybe they allow for souls already in the abyss to ascend to the heavens/other layers after seeing the light or redeeming themselves in the abyss itself after centuries/millennia of being there. Or since the original IRL versions decided whether a person was to wait in their grave peacefully or tormented until the end of time/apocalypse based on their deeds/life, maybe they might decide if a damned soul will simply fade away from existence, or if their evil deeds were so sever that they deserve to spend eternity in the abyss. Maybe they make the same decision for souls after a certain time there (like a parol hearing), and depending on the outcome the soul might be allowed to cease existing or they will be sent back to torment for eternity. Yeah I know by official canon souls/petitioners eventually merge into their plane, but I never liked that so I rule souls/petitioners to be eternal. For some reason I have a strange feeling these guys and their layer were targeted at people/DMs who had the same thoughts/feelings/houserules on this subject as I do, so I believe something like what I said above could be their intended purpose.