Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kain Darkwind 07-23-07, 12:07 PM	So what do people think? I made them to match up with my yugoloth (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7832) revisions. Baernoloth Baernoloth Medium Outsider (Evil) Hit Dice: 27d8 + 297 (418 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 50 ft. Armor Class: 57 (+11 deflection, +3 Dexterity, +13 insight, +20 natural), touch 37, flat-footed 54 Base Attack/Grapple: +27/+35 Attack: Touch +35 melee touch (11d6 vile and burning) Full Attack: 2 touches +35 melee touch (11d6 vile and burning) Space/ Reach: 5 ft. /5 ft. Special Attacks: Burning, glare, spell-like abilities, summon yugoloth, vile nature Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/epic and major good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to acid and poison, resistance to cold 20, electricity 20 and fire 20, spell resistance 42, telepathy 500 ft. Saves: Fort +30, Ref +22, Will +32 Abilities: Str 26, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 34, Wis 36, Cha 33 Skills: Appraise +42, Bluff +56, Concentration +41, Decipher Script +42, Diplomacy +49, Disguise +51 (+55 acting), Forgery +42, Hide +33, Intimidate +47, Knowledge (arcana) +42, Knowledge (history) +42, Knowledge (the planes) +42, Knowledge (religion) +42, Listen +43, Move Silently +33, Search +42, Sense Motive +43, Spellcraft +46, Spot +43, Survival +13 (+17 on other planes), Use Magic Device +41 (+31 scrolls) Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Improved Initiative, Persuasive, Quicken Spell-like Ability (x3), Skill Focus (Bluff) Epic Feats: Epic Skill Focus (Bluff), Epic Skill Focus (Disguise) Climate/Terrain: Lower Planes (Hades) Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 28 Treasure: Triple standard Alignment: Always neutral evil Advancement: 28- 54 HD (Medium) Burning (Ex): Those that are dealt damage from a baernoloth’s touch attack must make a Fortitude save (DC 34) or take half the original damage each round for the next 1d4 rounds. Multiple touches stack. Glare (Su): Those that meet a baernoloth’s gaze must make a Fortitude save (DC 34) or become sickened and a Will save (DC 34) or become panicked. Creatures who fail both saves fall comatose for an hour. The effects can be removed only via remove curse or similar effects. This is a gaze attack with a range of 90 feet. Spell-like Abilities: Always active – deathward, detect evil, detect good, mind blank, nondetection, tongues, true seeing, unholy aura; at will – animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 26), bestow greater curse (DC 29), blasphemy (DC 28), contagion (DC 25), control undead (DC 28), dismissal (DC 26), energy drain (DC 30), finger of death (DC 28), greater dispel magic, greater teleport, horrid wilting (DC 29), improved invisibility, mass charm monster (DC 29), permanent image (DC 27), programmed image (DC 27), shapechange, symbol of death (DC 29), telekinesis (DC 26), trap the soul (DC 29), unhallow, unholy blight; 3/day – antipathy (DC 29), circle of death (DC 27), damnation (DC 31), discern location, dominate monster (DC 30), feeblemind (DC 26), harm (DC 27), heal (DC 27), imprisonment, mass hold monster (DC 30), mirage arcana (DC 26), resurrection, screen, sympathy (DC 29); 1/day – legend lore. Caster level 27th Summon Yugoloth (Sp): 3/day, a baernoloth can summon 1d4 ultroloths, 1d8 arcanaloths, 2d6 nycaloths or 2d10 of any other yugoloth. Vile Nature (Ex): All damage dealt by a baernoloth is vile and must be healed in a consecrated area.
Kamin_Majere 07-24-07, 07:57 PM	What is DR/ Major Good? Also dont loths have a metallic element to their damage reduction? I might be mistaken here but i though they did. But i like it over all and its nice and advancable.
Witch 07-24-07, 08:08 PM	Regarding DR/Major Good: Certain damage reduction also requires a more powerful enchantment than ‘holy’ or the other +2 alignment enchantments. This is noted by the prefix ‘major’. A weapon with the +7 enchantment ‘alignment power’ is required to penetrate such damage reduction. In addition, a caster using align weapon at 30th level or higher can cause a weapon to penetrate major alignment damage reduction. A creature of 30 HD or more whose weapons are treated as a particular alignment for overcoming damage reduction also penetrates major alignment damage reduction. And yes, Kain, the lack of a metallic component surprises me as well - didn't you grant other yugoloths Mithril as a metallic component?
Kain Darkwind 07-25-07, 02:07 AM	And yes, Kain, the lack of a metallic component surprises me as well - didn't you grant other yugoloths Mithril as a metallic component? Thanks for posting my DR rules, Witch. Regarding Mithril, yugoloths have a few things that baernoloths don't. Like the yugoloth subtype for instance. :D I left it out of these old primal evil guys. The baatorian I did over on DF only had DR /epic chaos and good, no silver. I guess just to make them different.
Return of the Flumph 07-25-07, 02:37 AM	Pardon me for sounding like an absolute noob, but I've been hearing about these baernoloth guys for years now without ever seeing a picture. What do they look like?
Kain Darkwind 07-25-07, 12:30 PM	I actually have no idea. I've never seen a picture of one. I cobbled together this statblock based on what I'd heard and what I thought a mastermind of evil fiends would be capable of.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-25-07, 01:09 PM	Pardon me for sounding like an absolute noob, but I've been hearing about these baernoloth guys for years now without ever seeing a picture. What do they look like? I have a picture posted in another thread (the image from 'Planes of Conflict'). I'm at work right now, otherwise I'd go fishing through the directory on the server I'm hosting it on, and post a link. If nobody else posts it before then, I'll post it this evening sometime.
Return of the Flumph 07-25-07, 03:12 PM	That makes me feel better. Now, for some actually critique; these stats look good, but I wonder if perhaps you could expand their portfolio, so to speak. Namely, they should be able to summon devils and demons as well as yugoloths. If they really are the original progenitors of evil, all other fiends should be at least somewhat beholden to them. They are linked most closely to the yugoloths (since they directly created them), so they are probably better at summoning those, but the other two should still be available. Just a thought.
Witch 07-25-07, 03:18 PM	Kain doesn't support the whole "Baerns are responsible for the original creation of devils and demons" mythos - that might explain why they are unable to summon other fiends in this statistics block.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-25-07, 04:02 PM	I wouldn't necessarily let them summon baatezu (as easily as other fiends). The baern may have created the yugoloths, obyriths (and by extension the tanar'ri) and ancient baatorians, but the baatezu were originally LN, and they fell to LE from there rather than being creatures of Evil corrupted with Law. Their control over baatezu would be less direct, since they arrived at that alignment from a different source. Of course, the stronger connection the baatezu gain with Baator, in theory the baern might gain more hooks into them over time. Depends on what angle you want to go with the baernaloths, and their relationship (past or current) with the other fiends. There the canon way, then I handle it a slightly different way in my (non-published) work, and I know that DF does something radically different with fiend prehistory and relationships that I'm not clear on at all.
ripvanwormer 07-25-07, 04:22 PM	A drawing of a baernaloth I made a while back: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/baern.jpg
Shemeska the Marauder 07-25-07, 08:25 PM	Here's that image I mentioned: http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baernaloth1
Kain Darkwind 07-25-07, 08:32 PM	Depends on what angle you want to go with the baernaloths, and their relationship (past or current) with the other fiends. There the canon way, then I handle it a slightly different way in my (non-published) work, and I know that DF does something radically different with fiend prehistory and relationships that I'm not clear on at all. :) And I actually go different from DF in my little Alternate World, blending both official, DF and other fanbased (like you and rip's stuff) where it works. As I describe it, the baern created the yugoloths and had a hand in tanar'ri/baatezu creation. The baern are as old as the obyriths, the baatorians only slightly younger and none of the three owe the others their origin. Thanks for the images, Rip and Shem. Helps me out a ton in picturing them.
Surgo 07-25-07, 09:50 PM	They have the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat taken three times, but I don't see which Spell-like Abilities are quickened. Or am I just being dumb and missing that? edit: This is REALLY pedantic but I'd clarify "2d10 of any other Yugoloth" in the summoning to "2d10 of any Yugoloth of lower CR than X" (probably the Nycaloths), if only for clarification on that when some new Yugoloth comes out with higher CR than the Nycaloths.
Witch 07-26-07, 06:22 AM	They have the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat taken three times, but I don't see which Spell-like Abilities are quickened. Or am I just being dumb and missing that? If I recall, Kain's version of QS-LA allows 3 applications total which may be applied to any SLA the creature has; I'm not exactly sure anymore whether there's any restrictions on what may or may not be quickened. edit: This is REALLY pedantic but I'd clarify "2d10 of any other Yugoloth" in the summoning to "2d10 of any Yugoloth of lower CR than X" (probably the Nycaloths), if only for clarification on that when some new Yugoloth comes out with higher CR than the Nycaloths. I can predict the likely outcome of what happens when people print a new yugoloth of higher CR than the Nycaloths: they're not going to be acknowledged. And if they are, I'm sure the statblock can be altered.
Kain Darkwind 07-26-07, 07:52 PM	They have the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat taken three times, but I don't see which Spell-like Abilities are quickened. Or am I just being dumb and missing that? As Witch said, I don't bother to qualify what spell-like the feat works for. It gives you 3 quickens a day, which you can spend on any spell-like you have. Taking it 3 times, the baern has 9 total quickens, and can use it in combination with any of its SLAs. 3.0 allowed the feat to quicken each of your SLAs 3/day. 3.5 nuked it to selecting a particular spell, which you could then quicken 3/day. My version is a happy medium. For those who don't use my version, you are more than welcome to choose 1-3 SLAs that the baernoloth can quicken. edit: This is REALLY pedantic but I'd clarify "2d10 of any other Yugoloth" in the summoning to "2d10 of any Yugoloth of lower CR than X" (probably the Nycaloths), if only for clarification on that when some new Yugoloth comes out with higher CR than the Nycaloths. Heh. That'll be the day. Assuming such a creature comes into existance(hopefully in the Fiendish Codex 3?), I'll update my stats.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-26-07, 08:25 PM	Heh. That'll be the day. Assuming such a creature comes into existance(hopefully in the Fiendish Codex 3?), I'll update my stats. The difficulty with adding new 'loths is that 'loth society exists as an entirely linear hierarchy, with each caste moving on to the next, and each caste being both a lesson as well as a subtype of 'loth. Adding new 'loths can be problematic, depending on where they're added, or where they can be fit in if the author didn't elaborate on their roles. The Echinoloth from Stormwrack would fit in nicely somewhere in the pisco/hydo/gacholoth range for instance. But then you have things like the corruptor of fate that is a poor fit anywhere in the 'loth hierarchy and fits really only as a specialized 'loth construct rather than a true 'loth. I'd very very wary of adding any additional greater 'loths both due to the roles of the current trio of greater 'loths, breaking that symmetry they have with demodands, etc. I wouldn't create any if it was my decision, though I wouldn't be averse to making whole slews of guardian yugoloth subtypes and new forms of demoted 'loths like canoloths, etc.
Witch 07-26-07, 08:31 PM	The difficulty with adding new 'loths is that 'loth society exists as an entirely linear hierarchy, with each caste moving on to the next, and each caste being both a lesson as well as a subtype of 'loth. Adding new 'loths can be problematic, depending on where they're added, or where they can be fit in if the author didn't elaborate on their roles. Question is - do you think people who write Monster Manuals will care about that?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-26-07, 08:38 PM	Question is - do you think people who write Monster Manuals will care about that? I would hope so. If you're going to be paid to write something for publication, I should think that you would feel obligated to know the background of what you'd be writing about. I've been lucky w/ Dragon etc to have largely written on topics I've chosen, or topics have been given to me that I already knew quite a bit about. In one recent case I had to do some background reading before I felt comfortable taking the assignment. If I didn't feel I was up to writing something, I'd decline it or ask for outside help in getting up to speed on the topic. I would seriously hope that someone writing about an established group of creatures in D&D for an official book would go out of their way as a matter of professional pride and simple professionalism to know the details that had preceeded them.
Bob the Efreet 07-27-07, 01:00 AM	I would seriously hope that someone writing about an established group of creatures in D&D for an official book would go out of their way as a matter of professional pride and simple professionalism to know the details that had preceded them. I would hope for that, too. But I know better than to expect it.
Kain Darkwind 07-27-07, 01:35 PM	The difficulty with adding new 'loths is that 'loth society exists as an entirely linear hierarchy, with each caste moving on to the next, and each caste being both a lesson as well as a subtype of 'loth. Adding new 'loths can be problematic, depending on where they're added, or where they can be fit in if the author didn't elaborate on their roles. The Echinoloth from Stormwrack would fit in nicely somewhere in the pisco/hydo/gacholoth range for instance. But then you have things like the corruptor of fate that is a poor fit anywhere in the 'loth hierarchy and fits really only as a specialized 'loth construct rather than a true 'loth. I'd very very wary of adding any additional greater 'loths both due to the roles of the current trio of greater 'loths, breaking that symmetry they have with demodands, etc. I wouldn't create any if it was my decision, though I wouldn't be averse to making whole slews of guardian yugoloth subtypes and new forms of demoted 'loths like canoloths, etc. :D My original answer was "there aren't any other `loths" My remark there is more a plea for a FC3 to exist than for new loths types introduced in the FC3. That said, if someone gave the care and attention to the fiends that they deserve, I think they could insert a loth in each CR from 1 to 25. 25 unique lessons. And then there is always room for non-loth daemons, just like there is for non-tanar'ri demons.
Return of the Flumph 07-30-07, 07:56 PM	Hmmm...interesting pictures. I'm not sure if I should say, "dog," "horse," "bug," or "emaciated holocaust survivor." They sort of look like all four. Since we are talking about Baernoloths, where did they come from, originally? Were they born spontaneously out of the Gray Waste when it was formed, or did they come from elseware? I seem to remember something suggesting the later, but I'm not sure.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-30-07, 08:11 PM	Since we are talking about Baernoloths, where did they come from, originally? Were they born spontaneously out of the Gray Waste when it was formed, or did they come from elseware? I seem to remember something suggesting the later, but I'm not sure. Depends on how you view the legend. Either they were the first fiends to form spontaneously out of the first, primordial incarnation of the Gray Waste, or they were sent into the multiverse as heralds of a non-material universal concept of Evil, with the Waste springing into existance around them once they arrived. Perhaps a bit of both.
Kain Darkwind 07-31-07, 12:47 PM	Depends on how you view the legend. Either they were the first fiends to form spontaneously out of the first, primordial incarnation of the Gray Waste, or they were sent into the multiverse as heralds of a non-material universal concept of Evil, with the Waste springing into existance around them once they arrived. Perhaps a bit of both. Is there any Good-aligned counterpart to the Baern?
foxtail 07-31-07, 01:09 PM	I vaguely remember a baernoloth from the adventure path that came with the Blood War boxed set. Didn't they have a power to instantly re-open wounds they've caused up to 24 hours later?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-31-07, 01:51 PM	Is there any Good-aligned counterpart to the Baern? If we're to believe the 'loth creation myths, each of the pure alignments had an original primordial exemplar race, of which the Baernaloths were the representatives of Evil. It's very possible that Good, Chaos, and Law each had an analog of the baern (if FC:II is to be given weight, Asmodeus seems to have been a servant of the first or possibly second generation exemplars of Law, once you discard the myth elements that mention deities). The slaadi themselves might be the original exemplars of Chaos (the pre-spawning stone variety slaad anyways).
Shemeska the Marauder 07-31-07, 01:53 PM	I vaguely remember a baernoloth from the adventure path that came with the Blood War boxed set. Didn't they have a power to instantly re-open wounds they've caused up to 24 hours later? That would be Daru ib Shamiq, the baernaloth responsible for giving the younger fiend races their teleportation abilities. And yes, baern in general had the power to manipulate wounds they had caused another being (and I toyed with a more powerful version of that ability in a story I posted on the boards recently).