Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balard 02-19-07, 11:47 AM	So, they hate each other, theirs armies clashes in gory battles, the universe stops to see theirs latest fight. But, how? I mean, How the battle is actually fought? They say that the logistics is more important than strategy and army strength. And the most battle happens in the Gray Waste. How the soldiers travel from their layers in Abyss and Baator to the Gray Waste? Always by the Styx? From portals to Gehena or Carceri than to the Wastes? How they find these portals? They send Thousands of fiends by than? The gate-towns have some participation in the wars? The fiendsh armies travel by the Outlands? :confused: thanx for any info or link :D
elondir 02-19-07, 12:04 PM	The Baatezu use strategy. The Tanar'ri use numbers. Example: the baatezu use extensive strategic planning to raise an army of say 50,000 lemures, hamatulas, barbazus, etc. to capture a foothold on Pazunia. The Tanar'ri respond with several million dretches and manes led by a few mariliths with no real strategy. The tanar'ri take over 80% casualties but defend the hole for another day. There are an infinite number of portals between each plane, because the planes are infinite. They live on their planes, so they know where the portals are, and can send armies through them.
ripvanwormer 02-19-07, 01:25 PM	How the soldiers travel from their layers in Abyss and Baator to the Gray Waste? Always by the Styx? From portals to Gehena or Carceri than to the Wastes? How they find these portals? They send Thousands of fiends by than? The gate-towns have some participation in the wars? The fiendsh armies travel by the Outlands? They often use the River Styx. There's a layer of the Abyss called Durao filled with ports and ships, from which the tanar'ri armies can embark to any other lower plane. They also use portals, which they mapped out millennia ago. They've been on the Lower Planes for a very, very long time, and they know where the portals are by now. Portals are tightly contested between the two sides - most of them have fortresses or fortified towns built around them, and seizing control of one is considered a great victory. Rarely, they'll travel through the Outlands, but only when they're trying to be unpredictable. Fiendish armies marching through the Outlands cause a lot of destruction and the natives - including the native gods - don't like it. That doesn't mean they're always able to stop them. Even more rarely, they'll find portals leading to the Material Plane, and use those as shortcuts. Entire worlds have been devastated in that way.
crimsonwolf 02-19-07, 01:46 PM	GASPS .... ya i think if they made a source book souly on this it would be a sell out book.... if they did it relllly good...
Bob the Efreet 02-19-07, 02:28 PM	GASPS .... ya i think if they made a source book souly on this it would be a sell out book.... if they did it relllly good... They did, and it did. Try to find Hellbound: The Blood War for a reasonable price somewhere ;)
ripvanwormer 02-19-07, 02:39 PM	As Bob said, it's called Hellbound: The Blood War. It's for 2nd edition, so some of the stuff on fiendish weapon immunities and so forth is outdated. RPG Now store (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1315) Paizo store (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/planescape/v5748btpy7mo1)
Doom_Linnorm 02-19-07, 03:02 PM	The Baatezu use strategy. The Tanar'ri use numbers. Example: the baatezu use extensive strategic planning to raise an army of say 50,000 lemures, hamatulas, barbazus, etc. to capture a foothold on Pazunia. The Tanar'ri respond with several million dretches and manes led by a few mariliths with no real strategy. The tanar'ri take over 80% casualties but defend the hole for another day. Now this is not entirerly accurate. Tanar'ri also use strategy, quite impressive even at certain times. Just becouse they are Chaotic doesn't mean they have an Int score dangling around 6. You'll see that Mariliths for example have highly impressive Int scores and their text clearly states that they are capable generals. They key difference here is long term planning versus quick responses and counter strategies. While this might seem strange as I'm sure people would often think Demons active and Devils reactive, Law and Chaos actualy do not reflect this. Becouse of Chaotic creatures talent for acting (very often effectivly) on impulse or whim, Demons actualy have a major upperhand in the Defense of the Abyss not just becouse they are native to it, but becouse they react quickly and effectivly to any threat. Devils prefer to often retreat and formulate a new detailed plan of attack, losing ground in the process but the carefully planned scheme has a higher succesrate then the demonic counteractions. However devils are faced with some inflexibility, if something does not go according to plan then they usualy are proverbialy screwed and forced retreat as stated above. Impulse vs Planning. not: Brainless numbers vs strategic masterminds. (Though do to Demonic independant action from others it often looks like that.)
ripvanwormer 02-19-07, 03:07 PM	Demons also do very well with guerilla warfare, terrorism, commando raids, and other situations where battle is less formal and reliant more on the ingenuity of individuals. This is the weakness of devils, who have trouble reacting to these kinds of tactics. Baatezu do better when planning out "conventional" warfare, whether in ordered battalions, trenches, naval battles, or aerial bombing raids.
Doom_Linnorm 02-19-07, 03:47 PM	Which basicly explains and improves my above statement. You can always Rip or Shameska to add the most informative insights into DnD lore.
Renvale999 02-21-07, 01:29 PM	Sort of on/off Topic, but does anybody know who or what serve as Blood War Mercenaries? I've never been able to find any real info on this subject. I know there is probably 2nd edition stuff on this, but I was wondering if anybody could provide insight into this? I've always believed they gather forces from Acheron and the Yugoloths (which are mentioned). Just curious.
Witch 02-21-07, 01:43 PM	Mezzoloths and dergholoths are the soldiers in the yugoloth mercenary armies. Hydroloths serve them as scouts (and can swim through the river Styx to do this). The marraenoloths take the role of transporting armies over the Styx. Nycaloths are observers and scouts. They watch the battlefield and report to the Arcanaloths, so I'm not sure if they work as mercenaries (though they might.) The arcanoloths govern the contracts of the blood war: they hire out entire companies of 'loths. Ultroloths determine when those companies should betray the one who hired them. I think those might be the most relevant to the Blood War - though they're not all mercenaries, they do all play a significant part in it.
ripvanwormer 02-21-07, 03:37 PM	Sort of on/off Topic, but does anybody know who or what serve as Blood War Mercenaries? Yugoloths are the most famous of these, but anyone can be a mercenary in the Blood War - the tanar'ri and baatezu are always looking for new troops, and they're bound to be as reliable as the yugoloths. So there are humans, half-fiends, tieflings, and many other races in the Blood War armies.
Renvale999 02-21-07, 07:49 PM	Yugoloths are the most famous of these, but anyone can be a mercenary in the Blood War - the tanar'ri and baatezu are always looking for new troops, and they're bound to be as reliable as the yugoloths. So there are humans, half-fiends, tieflings, and many other races in the Blood War armies. So do they come from the material plane? Or from like the outlands and Sigil??
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 08:24 PM	How would the demons or devils recruit from Sigil? Can demon armies even march through or near Sigil? Last I checked the Lady of Pain is more powerful than any god as far as Sigil is concerned.
ripvanwormer 02-21-07, 10:01 PM	So do they come from the material plane? Or from like the outlands and Sigil?? More commonly the Outlands and Sigil (and Pandemonium, the Abyss, Carceri, Hades, Gehenna, Baator, and Acheron), but anywhere there are fiends. Some of them are no doubt recruited from the Material Plane. How would the demons or devils recruit from Sigil? They put up posters that say things like "THE BLOOD WAR IS LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD MEN." Can demon armies even march through or near Sigil? No, they generally can't. You don't need to have a whole army in the city to have recruiters, though. There are thousands of fiends in Sigil, and the Lady of Pain cares nothing about what they do as long as they're not threatening the city's well-being. An army of demons did invade Sigil, long ago, to battle an army of devils there. The Lady of Pain let them fight it out for weeks before removing them. The result is a ruined part of the city called the Slags, which is still filled with ancient demonic weapons and magic. There's no "near" Sigil. Sigil exists in a formless void on the top of a spire of rock an infinity in height. It's not possible to get closer to it than infinitely far away, unless you're actually inside it. You're either in Sigil, or you're as far away from it as anything can get. There's no "near."
FrostHammer 02-22-07, 01:05 AM	It's not really infinitely high if you can see the top of the spire from the outlands...
ripvanwormer 02-22-07, 02:42 AM	It's not really infinitely high if you can see the top of the spire from the outlands... To the contrary, it's precisely infinitely high. Even though you can see the top. That's part of what makes Sigil an "impossible" city. From the Outlands, you can see the "top" of infinity. That doesn't mean you can reach it, it just means the light from the top of the Spire has been traveling an infinite distance for an infinite amount of time - since before there was a Spire, probably. That's the planes for you - if you're not confused, it's because you don't know enough. The Planar Handbook said this befitted Sigil's "paradoxical nature." [page 141] A Player's Primer to the Outlands had a better quote: [page 4] The spire's a good example of how primes worry too much. They always want to know how something that's infinitely tall can have something else on top of it. But that kind of thinking just drives a berk barmy. In the planes, things are the way they are, and it's best just to leave it at that. The simplest explanation is that in the Outer Planes there is no true distance - only the idea of distance. The Spire, then, is the idea of infinite distance. You can see the top because Sigil's an equally powerful idea - assuming that's really Sigil up there. No one can prove it is.
JoAT 02-22-07, 04:12 AM	Indeed, though it may not be infinitly high, just very high - it's hard to prove either way, as the Spire negates all magical abilities, and even the powers of the gods themselves. The one god who attempted to climb the Spire, to reach the top and enter Sigil has not yet returned to say anything on the matter, and it has been hundreds, if not thousands of years since he started. Of course, the official line is that it is of infinite height, but I'd recommend against listening to those who tout this line of thought - they're the same people who'd insist that the Lady of Pain is not simply three ratatosks in a mask with some wands. Edit: And, slightly more on topic, the Blood War has spilled over into Sigil on more than one occasion, however when it gets out of hand, those involved are generally mazed. If I remember correctly, the Slags in the Hive ward are a result of the most recent incursion. Disclaimer: My info may not be correct - my Planescape books are on loan to a fan of Tony DiTerlizzi.
ripvanwormer 02-22-07, 12:48 PM	Indeed, though it may not be infinitly high, just very high - it's hard to prove either way, as the Spire negates all magical abilities You know it's infinite, because you can see it with your own eyes. Anyone who sees the Spire knows that, yep, that's infinity alright. It looks exactly like forever.
JoAT 02-22-07, 01:36 PM	So, it's blue?
ripvanwormer 02-22-07, 01:44 PM	There are actually a few different options: - You can see the top or you can see the bottom, but you can't see both at once. You can see the top and the Spire descending into the bottomless infinite distance, or you can see the bottom ascending into the neverending height, depending on how you choose to look at it. It's really the middle that's infinite. The middle goes on forever. - You can't actually see the top. I don't think there's anything official that says you can. If you can't, there's even less support for the idea that Sigil is at the top of it than otherwise, however. - The Spire is the concept of infinity, and it etches itself directly into your brain. It's like a glyph or spell that communicates the idea of the infinite to whoever looks at it. This doesn't involve photons or anything so mundane - it's telepathy of a sort, an infectious meme in the center of the Land. Maybe it doesn't even exist as a solid object; maybe it's just a direction you look in that imports knowledge of the endless.
Gray Richardson 02-23-07, 01:29 AM	It is the commonly accepted wisdom that the toroid looking thing that you can see at the top of the spire is Sigil. But we don't really know that Sigil is actually there. It's not like you can climb the Spire or even fly up there to check it out. That thing may actually just be a trick of the eye. There's no way to know where Sigil really is. You can't astral travel to Sigil. You can't sail a chaos ship into it's waterways. You cannot gate into sigil. Sigil can only be reached through portals. The portals may be found anywhere. Sigil can even be reached from other cosmologies. In that sense, Sigil is nowhere. And it is everywhere. In fact, Sigil is in your closet right this very instant. Go look. If you have the right key you will see.
Doom_Linnorm 02-23-07, 03:17 AM	What about the Planar staircase thingy that is also mentioned in FC: I? (I bet it connects to Sigil.) Do Demons and Devil travel trough there to launch surprise attacks deep within a realm? On the otherhand, those portals are usualy so obscure that some people spend their whole lives looking for them without finding them.
ripvanwormer 02-23-07, 01:52 PM	What about the Planar staircase thingy that is also mentioned in FC: I? (I bet it connects to Sigil.) It does, yes. Do Demons and Devil travel trough there to launch surprise attacks deep within a realm? Sometimes. It's a steep, narrow staircase that you have to climb for days and days, though, so it's not really practical for large armies. Here's another thread on the infinite staircase (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=796228).
Ordbyrht 02-23-07, 02:02 PM	What about the Planar staircase thingy that is also mentioned in FC: I? (I bet it connects to Sigil.) It does, as Hordes of the Abyss stated, the Infinite Staircase connects to any place where intelligent beings have expressed creativity. On a side note, Shemeska placed a portal to the Infinite Staircase under the Palace of the Jester, located in Sigil, in his Planescape Campaign (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613&page=1&pp=50). Do Demons and Devil travel trough there to launch surprise attacks deep within a realm? Even the baatezu and tanar'ri are allowed to travel the Infinite Staircase. Its guardians, the lilendi believe that, if anyone who wants to travel the Staircase has found his way to the Staircase, then it must be the will of their goddes Selune (The lilendi do, however, have a prejudice against the lawful baatezu). However, as you said, unless either group knows the location of the portal they wish to use, it will take them a long time to find a portal that connects to their destination. Fiendish armies are unlikely to use the Staircase, transporting large armed groups by the Staircase is too impractical. Small groups of Blood War participents, such as scouts or assassins, are more likely to use it. [EDIT: Beaten again, curse my slow typing skills!]
Doom_Linnorm 02-23-07, 02:02 PM	Demons also do very well with guerilla warfare, terrorism, commando raids, and other situations where battle is less formal and reliant more on the ingenuity of individuals. This is the weakness of devils, who have trouble reacting to these kinds of tactics. Based on the above I'd say it wouldn't have to be an army that suddenly sneaks into the winding alleyways of Dis. (Though I wouldn't advise any demons to go there..... I doubt they'd be able to navigate the city enough to actualy do damage.) Perhaps sabotaging defense constructions near Bel's citadel.... from the inside!
JoAT 02-23-07, 04:36 PM	So, it's blue? There are actually a few different options: - You can see the top or you can see the bottom, but you can't see both at once. You can see the top and the Spire descending into the bottomless infinite distance, or you can see the bottom ascending into the neverending height, depending on how you choose to look at it. It's really the middle that's infinite. The middle goes on forever. - You can't actually see the top. I don't think there's anything official that says you can. If you can't, there's even less support for the idea that Sigil is at the top of it than otherwise, however. - The Spire is the concept of infinity, and it etches itself directly into your brain. It's like a glyph or spell that communicates the idea of the infinite to whoever looks at it. This doesn't involve photons or anything so mundane - it's telepathy of a sort, an infectious meme in the center of the Land. Maybe it doesn't even exist as a solid object; maybe it's just a direction you look in that imports knowledge of the endless. *slightly embarrassed cough* Probably shouldn't gone with the really obscure joke there, I guess. I do recall, however, that the top is clearly visible, and it is stated (somewhere) that you can see it (from anywhere in the (infinite) Outlands to boot - there's a fun one to figure out). It is also (officially) infinite. But, then, the funness comes from the debate against this - perhaps, while not being infinite, the Spire embodies Zeno's Paradoxes (should that be the Paradoxes of Zeno, perhaps?), making transversing it impossible - the top could indeed be only a few thousand feet up (it certainly seems like that visually), and yet, as you will be unable to transverse even half that distance (or, indeed, even truly start - or even truly move), it is impossible to scale, and thus seems infinite. Now, anyways, back on topic... It's also important to remember that some portals tend to form at random, and can last for days, or even years at a time, though many only last minutes (like that portal to Sigil in my closet - gone before I could head through, more's the pity). I'd be willing to bet that the tanar'ri are masters of using them to stage their guerrilla strikes, employing mephits or something similar to sniff them out, or even stumbling across them as they are created. They're not a reliable source of transportation, but when opportunity strikes, the demons would be fools not to seize it.
FrostHammer 02-23-07, 04:55 PM	I wonder...what if you can an entire army crawl into a portable hole (equipped with devices to let them breathe)...then all you'd need is one person to carry to hole and traverse to Sigil, and then the army can come out! In the DMG2 a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge of Wee Jas does the same thing to transport her humongous undead army.
ripvanwormer 02-23-07, 06:06 PM	I do recall, however, that the top is clearly visible, and it is stated (somewhere) that you can see it (from anywhere in the (infinite) Outlands to boot I think you're remembering incorrectly. None of the sources I looked at (Manual of the Planes, Sigil and Beyond, A Player's Primer to the Outlands, Planar Handbook) claim you can see Sigil from the Outlands. It's a popular fan theory, it explains nicely why people think Sigil's up there at all, and I enjoy the idea that you can see the top of infinity in the Outer Planes, but I don't think it's official. perhaps, while not being infinite, the Spire embodies Zeno's Paradoxes That's another popular theory. the top could indeed be only a few thousand feet up (it certainly seems like that visually) Only a few thousand feet? Not in any illustrations I've seen! It's usually shown to be about as high as the radius of the Outlands between the Spire and the gate towns (1000 miles according to the MotP, but indefinite in Planescape). In the multiversal poster map in the Planescape boxed set it's depicted as much, much higher than the radius of the Land (and Sigil isn't shown on top of it, interestingly). But the Spire is also usually shown without a tip - that doesn't mean the Spire is flat on top, just that it's been shortened at that point so it'll fit within the frame.
JoAT 02-23-07, 06:58 PM	I think you're remembering incorrectly. None of the sources I looked at (Manual of the Planes, Sigil and Beyond, A Player's Primer to the Outlands, Planar Handbook) claim you can see Sigil from the Outlands. It's a popular fan theory, it explains nicely why people think Sigil's up there at all, and I enjoy the idea that you can see the top of infinity in the Outer Planes, but I don't think it's official. That's another popular theory. Only a few thousand feet? Not in any illustrations I've seen! It's usually shown to be about as high as the radius of the Outlands between the Spire and the gate towns (1000 miles according to the MotP, but indefinite in Planescape). In the multiversal poster map in the Planescape boxed set it's depicted as much, much higher than the radius of the Land (and Sigil isn't shown on top of it, interestingly). But the Spire is also usually shown without a tip - that doesn't mean the Spire is flat on top, just that it's been shortened at that point so it'll fit within the frame. I'm quite certain that they've described the top, and the torus (not necessarily Sigil of course, but a torus) as being visible from the Outlands somewhere (most likely in the ... third, thickish book that came with the Planescape boxed set? Yeah, I really wish I had my stuff so I could actually look this up). It has certainly been depicted with both top (though the top I remember could be a small flat surface, but I'm certain I remember a point) and torus. In any case, I must bow to this, since my material is all on loan, and attempting to discuss something based off faded memories years old is never a good idea.
ripvanwormer 02-23-07, 07:12 PM	I'm quite certain that they've described the top, and the torus (not necessarily Sigil of course, but a torus) as being visible from the Outlands somewhere (most likely in the ... third, thickish book that came with the Planescape boxed set? That's Sigil and Beyond. No, to the contrary it says the Spire 'disappears into nothingness above.' (page 15) It has certainly been depicted with both top (though the top I remember could be a small flat surface, but I'm certain I remember a point) and torus. Not in the poster maps from the Planescape boxed set, or in the poster map in A Player's Primer to the Outlands, or in the 3rd edition Manual of the Planes.
JoAT 02-23-07, 07:25 PM	Well... I'll be buggered. I was so certain of this I cheated, and looked online, and the image I remember was different. http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/Downloads/Planescape/www.darkside.gr/guests/add/Planescape/pgp_005_01.jpg It does indeed appear that not only can't you win them all, but that my brain is very much filled with the rust.