Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deathmond 06-03-07, 11:36 PM	So, I was just reading over information about the Outlands, because my character just recently arrived there. I came across two interesting facts; 1) Boccob has access to all places and times, even other deities' personal sanctuaries(not that he'd ever come in uninvited, it'd cause too much trouble) and 2) the Lady of Pain has barred all deities from Sigil. Reading these made me wonder...what would happen if Boccob REALLY wanted into Sigil for some reason? Also, I was looking for where Boccob's realm was. I was convinced he had a master library where every piece of knowledge was collected, but now that I look for it I can't find it and I'm wondering if it was just something a DM made up in the past that I'm remembering, or if it's true and I'm just not remembering where I read it correctly? Any information would be helpful.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-03-07, 11:38 PM	There has been a deity in Sigil before, but the lady kicked him out. So Boccob can get into Sigil if he wants to, but only if the lady allows it. I know about Boccob's library, it in the Deities and Demigods book i believe. I can't recalll which plane it was on.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-03-07, 11:48 PM	Kicked out? If you're talking about that one deity of portals (Aosker, I think it was), then that is a bit of an understatement. The Lady destroyed him in a very messy and painful way when he made a gambit for control. If I'm correct, that's why deities are barred from Sigil in the first place. Also, I think Vecna made in attempt in that adventure Die Vecna, Die! He too was rebuffed. The gods are not allowed into Sigil. Period. The Lady of Pain does not extend invitations to the deities to visit. If a god IS in Sigil, they most likely snuck in, or even more likely attempted to invade. Boccob is the smartest god out of all of them, so he would certainly be smart enough to know that pulling a stunt like that or even thinking that it could be attempted would only lead to painful, agonizing failure!:rant: (By the way, Boccob's Library is situated somewhere in the Outlands.)
Deathmond 06-03-07, 11:58 PM	Ok, I thought so, but whenever I'd see references to the Outlands, all it would talk about was sigil.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-04-07, 12:41 AM	Obad Hai's forest realm is there too. I guess the main reason Sigil is practically synonymous with the Outlands is because it's really the only interesting place there. The gate-towns are really just extentions of their respective planes, and in between them and the Spire, there isn't really anything of interest apart from those two divine realms.
sciborg2 06-04-07, 01:11 AM	Whoah, there was lots of interesting Outland places in 2e...also, Sigil isn't really in the Outlands. If any god can get into Sigil, it would likely be gods of Neutrality like Boccob or Gilean. I can almost see him and the Lady being allies, perhaps one is the parent of the other. There was also a lesser tanar'ric power that snuck into Sigil. But the Lady is Ao of Sigil, so even one god getting in isn't going to be too much trouble for her.
aushlo 06-04-07, 02:16 AM	I'd imagine that Sigil might be the exception. I mean, if Her Serenity can keep out every other power in existence from multiple worlds and pantheons at the same time, I'm thinking one Boccob probably won't be a huge hassle. Guess it's up to the DM....
Shemeska the Marauder 06-04-07, 02:27 AM	Deities and similar beings in Sigil: Aoskar - obliterated. His deific corpse floats in the Astral. Finder Wyvernspur - entered Sigil after relinquishing virtually all of his divinity to a proxy. Even so, he felt cold, uncomfortable, and -watched- every moment he remained in the city. Trolan - ascended to divinity while inside Sigil. Immediately kicked out. Vecna - got in via either a loophole, or was intentionally allowed in for reasons as yet unknown. Regardless though he was unceremoniously kicked out. Grundelsham's Automatic Scribe - an abyssal lord or minor god of the Abyss has wormed a portion of its essence into this device, or itself, possessing the object. This seems to be a loophole, and probably nothing will happen unless the possessor manifests properly or makes a disturbance within the city at which point it'll get booted from Sigil or worse.
Saydivosh 06-04-07, 02:50 AM	I must agree. The Lady of Pain has a chokehold control over access to Sigil. Although you did say any time, right? Well, ultimately I suppose the DM could rule that the Lady of Pain loses control of Sigil in the future. But I'm almost certainly sure that would prove catastrophic for the multiverse, Sigil especially. Perhaps the great ring would go crashing down the spire? So...maybe there is the loophole, but so many others have tried the loopholes and failed. *looks around nervously* I hope she isn't watching...
sciborg2 06-04-07, 03:18 AM	As presented in Planescape, Sigil is the key to controlling the planes for a god that can use its portals to go anywhere and possibly anywhen. Its important to understand why Sigil exists in a meta-gaming sense - to allow characters of varied levels to interact on the planes. This shifts the isolated paradises and hells of the Wheel into an interactive, breathing campaign setting. You can grow up on the planes, have families and businesses on the planes. It really changes the very nature of the game and likely why its fans love it so much and the CRPG based on it is lauded as one of the best roleplaying games of all time. Would destroying Sigil end the entire cosmos...posssibly/probably not. But it would end the renaissance...
Saydivosh 06-04-07, 03:25 AM	Would destroying Sigil end the entire cosmos...posssibly/probably not. But it would end the renaissance... That would be a true tragedy... :weep:
LoreleiIsildae 06-04-07, 04:33 AM	But the Lady is Ao of Sigil, so even one god getting in isn't going to be too much trouble for her. Ao? As in Ao of the Realms? Is this info in a sourcebook or novel or something?
navar100 06-04-07, 04:44 AM	Ao? As in Ao of the Realms? Is this info in a sourcebook or novel or something? It's a metaphor.
Romtos 06-04-07, 05:40 AM	The library of Boccob is mentioned in Complete Divine. To be precize, the part where they name all the planes and what it's like to be dead there. Not sure which one was Boccob's. :)
ripvanwormer 06-04-07, 02:56 PM	in between them and the Spire, there isn't really anything of interest apart from those two divine realms. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH! There is much of interest in the Land, young padawan, your mistake is in thinking you're going to learn jack flash about the planes from 3e sources - oh, sure, there are new books that'll tell you about the Hells and the Abyss, but the Land, with its mysteries and secrets - you're going to need to look deeper. There's the great three-leveled mountain where the neutral dwarven deities dwell, where you can gamble away your essence or drink millennia-old beer or steal gemstones that have evolved to house and harnass souls, and beneath it the humming, hissing, burning Caverns of Thought where Ilsensine rests with its infinite tentacles extending into every plane - and tangled within that are the tunnels and libraries and laboratories of Gzemnid, the beholder god of air and magic and knowledge and sky. There's the Hidden Realm, the orrery of crystal planes and spheres dreamt into existence by Annam, the great creator god known to the giants, who is said to have dreamt all things. There's the Court of Light, the threefold puzzle/test/realm ruled/guarded/watched over by the fivefold goddess of nagas, Shekinester; no one who enters is ever the same. It's a place of death, transformation, and life eternal. There's the Mausoleum of Chronepsis, the dragon god of destiny and death, where each titanic hourglass is the dusty essence of time, the souls of dragons living and long-dead and perhaps yet unborn. There's the Palace of Judgment, where the souls of those who revere the Chinese pantheon are sorted out and sent to any of their thousand heavens and hells. There's Tir na Og, home of the whole great bloody feuding cattle-stealing Celtic pantheon, on the shores of the great sea Tir fo Thiunn, where land is water and water is land. There's the Well of Urd, where the three fates measure and cut the threads of destiny. There's the stinking bog of Semuyana, the hermaphroditic lizardfolk power; there's Boccob's infinite library of lore; there's the Steel Hills and the Hive and the Silver Lands and the Sleeping Lands and the Web of Fate and Tvashtri's Laboratory and Wonderhome and Thoth's Estate and the Hidden Wood and Stormcloud and the Labyrinth of Life and the Marketplace Eternal. There are mountains bigger than worlds and demon citadels and exiled angels and endless deserts of dust and mysterious caravans that can pick you up and swoop you across infinities in a night and the enigmatic rilmani with their fingers on the knife's edge of the multiversal balance, their mirrored libraries and buried secrets, and the infinite impossible Spire that neither mortal nor god can safely approach, and Sigil's not even there it's also in the Ethereal Plane and on the Material Plane and everywhere else at once, and everything in the Land has its opposite and its antithesis and its synthesis so there are pairs and couples and trinaries and foursomes and ninesomes, fire blending with ice, everything bleeding together and mixing and breeding and becoming stranger. The Land is all the other outer planes at once, yes, but it's also got an identity of its own, guiding all the other parts like puppets on a string. It's not just Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, no, it's Balance too, reacting and causing reactions, shifting and infiltrating and disguising and bending, one ring to rule them all and one ring to bind them.
lint trap 06-04-07, 03:14 PM	Now that's a man with a passion for the planes. Amen.
Mirtek 06-04-07, 03:47 PM	Kicked out? If you're talking about that one deity of portals (Aosker, I think it was), then that is a bit of an understatement. The Lady destroyed him in a very messy and painful way when he made a gambit for control. Actually that is only fanfiction. It's only known that she killed him, but the details of their battle are unknown. For all we know it couldn have been a battle that she barely managed to win and caused her wounds that she still has not fully healed today. The short story about her easily destroying Aoskar is not canon. Vecna - got in via either a loophole, or was intentionally allowed in for reasons as yet unknown. Regardless though he was unceremoniously kicked out. Vecna was kicked out in a battle that shoock the very foundations of Sigil. Anything but unceresmoniously.
Tobias Talco'un 06-04-07, 07:56 PM	Distilled essence of the elemental plane of pure awsome Preach it Brother! Where can we find more info on all of that?
ripvanwormer 06-04-07, 09:24 PM	Planescape Campaign Setting (Sigil and Beyond) A Player's Primer to the Outlands On Hallowed Ground Tales From the Infinite Staircase That should cover it. Might want to take a look at the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, too.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-04-07, 09:31 PM	Vecna was kicked out in a battle that shoock the very foundations of Sigil. Anything but unceresmoniously. Not foundation rocking enough for a single trace to remain a few years after the fact. Aoskar's temple remains in sigil, ruined but still there, yet there's not a mark upon the city from Vecna's little romp, nor has there been a single mention of the events in any of the numerous 3.x mentions of the city, so it's reasonable to assume that it didn't happen as explosively as DVD might have tried to present it as. The Blood War spilled into the city for a week or two in the Slags -that left a mark- but Vecna hasn't left much of anything at all in his passing and the City moves on without much a care.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-04-07, 09:47 PM	Fanfiction? I was not aware of such a short story. I stated what I did on the assumption that Aosker ended up like most who cross the Lady, which after seeing a particular cinematic from Planescape: Torment, seemed to me to indicate at least evisceration of some kind (I know there's mazing too, but Aosker didn't get mazed, did he?). I was unaware that there was so much to see in the Outlands alone! Please excuse my error, but I've never played Planescape, as I didn't really even know about D&D until 3rd edition was out.
ripvanwormer 06-04-07, 09:58 PM	(I know there's mazing too, but Aosker didn't get mazed, did he?). Nope, he's dead, and the Lady of Pain's method of choice generally does involve peeling the skin off some poor sod's bones. But the fight between the Lady and Aoskar isn't documented - we only know she booted his corpse into the Astral Plane. Whether it was the usual sort of bout we've come to expect from Her Serenity or something else - she hasn't killed many gods that we know about, in fact Aoskar's the only example; she didn't kill Vecna, or Trolan, or Finder, so exactly how her deicides are done is dark to us.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-04-07, 11:56 PM	That was a rhetorical question Mr. Ripvanwormer. Is the preferred method of punishment really just peeling off the skin? I thought all that was left of the Nameless One that time the Lady did him in was a bloody mangled mess on the streets of Sigil, like being caught in a bladestorm on Ocanthus (I think that's how it's spelled. It's that place on Acheron where Wee Jas lives).
ripvanwormer 06-05-07, 10:30 AM	Is the preferred method of punishment really just peeling off the skin? Well, that's what "flaying" means, though if other organs get damaged in the process I don't think she minds much. Peeling off a person's skin, leaving them just bare and bloody muscle, is more than enough to kill them all by itself, generally speaking.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-05-07, 01:03 PM	I can't argue with that. I just thought it would be messier.
sciborg2 06-05-07, 04:25 PM	it didn't happen as explosively as DVD might have tried to present it as. well, technically the entire cosmos was rewritten after Vecna was kicked out so it actually may be the biggest change to the Multiverse since its inception. ;) as an adventure, DVD played fast and loose with a lot of rules...but it was also meant to be the culminating adventure of 2e iirc. In that respect, it was the ultimate adventure for players to go up against perhaps the greatest D&D villain of all time.
Kihon 06-05-07, 04:59 PM	I do not remember where I read it, but it was written that long before she took the title/name "Lady of Pain" she was one of the origional two powers that created everything (long before the other powers). One day the other male power decided to destroy creation, and she stopped him and locked him away for all eternity so creation could continue. The powers eventually became, and none of them know the truth about her - and of course she isn't saying...just watching all of it - like a huge experiment. Back on topic - Boccob has 'nothing' on her. If she wanted to - he wouldn't exist, but then she would be interfering with free will - and she doesn't do that. Boccob can try as much as he likes, but he can not do anything substantial to her.
Calmar 06-05-07, 05:15 PM	BTW is Grundelsham pronounced 'Grundel-sham', or 'Grundels-ham'? :confused:
Alpha_Moose 06-05-07, 06:38 PM	Most people assume that the Lady is omnipotent, but there really isn't anything that shows her as being that uber (at least nothing I know of). She clearly is powerful, but not any more than a Greater Deity. She bars other deities from Sigil but most deities can do the same in their own realm. As for Boccob vs. the Lady; even if he could do it I don't think that he would care. He could already know all about her but just keep it to himself.
ripvanwormer 06-05-07, 07:07 PM	BTW is Grundelsham pronounced 'Grundel-sham', or 'Grundels-ham'? :confused: It's pronounced "Grundle-thum." It's spelled "Grundlethum's Automatic Scribe," named for a wizard named Grundlethum Blackdagger. The identity of the "lesser power of the Abyss" who's slipped past the Lady's defenses to possess the Scribe is unknown, but I've always blamed Graz'zt. Beshaba might be another good choice.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-05-07, 07:09 PM	Most people assume that the Lady is omnipotent, but there really isn't anything that shows her as being that uber (at least nothing I know of). She clearly is powerful, but not any more than a Greater Deity. She bars other deities from Sigil but most deities can do the same in their own realm. She has shown the ability to fiddle around with time without causing any paradoxes, and I can't think of any gods that have demonstrated that power.
Alpha_Moose 06-05-07, 07:12 PM	She has shown the ability to fiddle around with time without causing any paradoxes, and I can't think of any gods that have demonstrated that power. When did she do this? Also, that's not special. Clearly any punk teen from the 80's can do that.
sciborg2 06-06-07, 12:11 AM	Actually, I found that piece of Faction War to be problematic, but then I hated what Faction War did to PS. (for the record, the adventure in and of itself was good...much like Die Venca Die) The Lady should not be able to create time loops and have any being end up outside of Sigil -- as I see it, her job is to keep Sigil out of the hands of any of the powers that might seek to use to upset the balance. Stretching her power beyond that ruins her and makes her into something like Amsodeus aka a bloated carcass soaked in supposed power that every PC and their mother wants to kill. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-06-07, 12:18 AM	When did she do this? The 'lifecycle' so to speak, of Rowan Darkwood/Gifad/Wizard of the Labyrinth Stone. Also, that's not special. Clearly any punk teen from the 80's can do that. *grins* Haven't seen that movie in a while. :)
TinyHowie 06-06-07, 09:45 AM	If I remember correctly, Lady of the Pain has no stats:D How can you kill one which has no stats? reminds me of southpark
Alpha_Moose 06-06-07, 01:34 PM	If I remember correctly, Lady of the Pain has no stats:D How can you kill one which has no stats? reminds me of southpark It's not that hard. The Earth has stats, even if they're not specifically written out. Bah, let's do some annihilation math! Unworked stone has 900 HP per 10ft by 10 ft by 5 ft section. So the ratio for HP to cubic feet is 9:5. The earth is 1,083,207,300,000,000 cubic feet. So approximately 1,950,000,000,000,000 hit points. With hardness 8. This is its total HP, mind. Destroying parts of it requires much less damage. Actually, he didn't count that the core of the Earth is iron, but you get the idea. Apply the same type of logic to the Lady.
TinyHowie 06-06-07, 08:48 PM	But then what is the composition of an entity like the Lady?
Deathmond 06-06-07, 08:54 PM	Pure, undiluted Win?
Jeriaus 06-06-07, 11:26 PM	If she is made of pure undiluted Win, the nthe only thing that can kill her is pure undiluted Fail. So only a Fighter can kill her?:P
Deathmond 06-07-07, 02:49 AM	And we have now found the one use for a level 20 fighter. It will destroy the lady of Pain, creating an explosion that will shake the cosmos.
Deacon Liadon 06-07-07, 04:35 AM	Just to point out, Badir can probably be added to the list of Gods that made it into Sigil, though he did leave pretty quickly.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-07-07, 10:48 AM	Actually, I found that piece of Faction War to be problematic, but then I hated what Faction War did to PS. (for the record, the adventure in and of itself was good...much like Die Venca Die) The Lady should not be able to create time loops and have any being end up outside of Sigil -- as I see it, her job is to keep Sigil out of the hands of any of the powers that might seek to use to upset the balance. Stretching her power beyond that ruins her and makes her into something like Amsodeus aka a bloated carcass soaked in supposed power that every PC and their mother wants to kill. ;) I wasn't aware of the fact that Darkwood ended up outside of Sigil. That is problematic, and not fitting. I still find the whole thing amusing.
ripvanwormer 06-07-07, 01:26 PM	I wasn't aware of the fact that Darkwood ended up outside of Sigil. That is problematic, and not fitting. How is that remotely problematic? She's the mistress of the City of Doors; with portals, she can punt someone anywhere in the multiverse she wants to punt them. She can banish them to ethereal mazes or to Agathion in Pandemonium. It would be child's play for her to transport Gifad through time and then create a portal for him to fall through. As it happens, though, we don't even know that he ended up outside of Sigil at all. The epilogue in Faction War is very vague on the issue. All we know is that he awoke in a dark cave and was captured by slavers (likely tso, or their ancestors), who took him across the planes. The cave might well have been within Sigil, the slavers taking him through a portal leading elsewhere soon afterwards, or the slavers might have taken him from Sigil into a portal leading him to the cave, where he woke up. So I object to the premise that the Lady of Pain banishing someone to a place outside the city is problematic in any way, and I also object to the idea that this is necessarily what happened to Gifad. Like Sciborg, I would prefer to leave it ambiguous whether the Lady of Pain has any power outside of the City of Doors, but we know for a fact she can at least banish people (and gods) outside of the Cage. That's practically her stock in trade; it's what defines both her and her city.
XHereticX 06-07-07, 09:38 PM	So, I was just reading over information about the Outlands, because my character just recently arrived there. I came across two interesting facts; 1) Boccob has access to all places and times, even other deities' personal sanctuaries(not that he'd ever come in uninvited, it'd cause too much trouble) and 2) the Lady of Pain has barred all deities from Sigil. Reading these made me wonder...what would happen if Boccob REALLY wanted into Sigil for some reason? Also, I was looking for where Boccob's realm was. I was convinced he had a master library where every piece of knowledge was collected, but now that I look for it I can't find it and I'm wondering if it was just something a DM made up in the past that I'm remembering, or if it's true and I'm just not remembering where I read it correctly? Any information would be helpful. If Boccob came into Sigil without the lady's permission, he is screwed. Period.
El_Machinae 06-07-07, 10:51 PM	Is there any way for Boccob to get enough power to challenge the LoP? Or at least, I wonder if (decently intelligent and experienced) gods think there is?
Alpha_Moose 06-08-07, 12:08 AM	Is there any way for Boccob to get enough power to challenge the LoP? Or at least, I wonder if (decently intelligent and experienced) gods think there is? I think that there is. One guess is that she just concentrated all of her power on Sigil, so while she is there she is practically omnipotent, but outside she is much weaker. Or possibly Sigil is her source for power. Either way if taken out of Sigil she could be easily defeated for anyone of deific power. Really though, my guess is that Boccob does know, but just doesn't care. Or he thinks that it would be too much wasted effort, or he is actually dating the Lady.
sooperspook 06-08-07, 07:13 AM	Here's a thought. Maybe Boccob has a deal with the Lady? That could be why he has access to every place and time. Alternatively , since he can get anywhere/anywhen he can probably get into Sigil, BUT he might have a "Gentleman's agreement" with the Lady not too. It does say he doesn't like fighting and avoids treading on other powers toes.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-08-07, 01:22 PM	It's kind of hard to make that kind of agreement when the Lady of Pain never speaks. She just floats around Sigil dispensing her brand of justice as needed. Apart from that, she's just there. This may be because I'm just some berk who never knew much about Planescape, but apart from keeping the residents of Sigil in line and the gods out, the Lady just seems to aimlessly wander the city.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 08:57 PM	Hmm, I just had a thought. Would Karsus's Avatar work on the lady?
The Livewire 06-08-07, 09:52 PM	Hmm, I just had a thought. Would Karsus's Avatar work on the lady? Somehow, I think it would be as successful for you as it was for him ;-) Wonder of Aoskar has a vestige to bind?
turalisj 06-09-07, 12:24 AM	But doesn't she only exist in Planescape? If so, then Boccob merely needs to rip a hole in the dimensions and go there. Or he can gather up the greater dieties and bind the LoP next to that insane god. Tharizdum: Howdy do! LoP: I'm going to kill them for this.... Tharizdum: Want to count the eons? One eon...two eon.... what comes after three eon? :D
Zousha_Omenohu 06-09-07, 03:17 AM	If I'm correct, Planescape does not take place in a seperate cosmology like Eberron. It's merely the same Great Wheel cosmology we all know and love. The reason it seems different is because it focuses on the non-Material Worlds, showing things that could never happen on the Material Plane. Therefore, Boccob, Obad-Hai, the Lady and everyone else Mr. Ripvanwormer mentioned are neighbors on a single world. And that's just one of them!
Shemeska the Marauder 06-09-07, 03:26 AM	If I'm correct, Planescape does not take place in a seperate cosmology like Eberron. It's merely the same Great Wheel cosmology we all know and love. The reason it seems different is because it focuses on the non-Material Worlds, showing things that could never happen on the Material Plane. Therefore, Boccob, Obad-Hai, the Lady and everyone else Mr. Ripvanwormer mentioned are neighbors on a single world. And that's just one of them! Precisely.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-09-07, 03:33 AM	Though I confess, there was a lot I never knew until I really started digging. The Manual of the Planes never even mentioned the Modrons.:mad:
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:33 AM	Though I confess, there was a lot I never knew until I really started digging. The Manual of the Planes never even mentioned the Modrons.:mad: I think they got rid of them as of third edition and replaced them with inevitables.
turalisj 06-09-07, 01:33 PM	The only reference I could find to the Lady of Pain in my Mauel of the Planes was on page 151, where it mentions her wanting dieties out. Other than that, I can't find anything on her...
Shemeska the Marauder 06-09-07, 04:15 PM	Though I confess, there was a lot I never knew until I really started digging. The Manual of the Planes never even mentioned the Modrons.:mad: No, the modrons are there in the 3e Manual of the Planes. Page 129, there's even a little illustration of a modron there standing on the schematic map of the plane, but they're pretty marginalized in the details of mechanus therein compared to prior editions.
Witch 06-09-07, 04:27 PM	No, the modrons are there in the 3e Manual of the Planes. Page 129, there's even a little illustration of a modron there standing on the schematic map of the plane, but they're pretty marginalized in the details of mechanus therein compared to prior editions. Perhaps it has a bit to do with the fact that they're portrayed as stupid cartoon characters. These are most of the the relevant results a google search for "Modron" showed me on the first page: http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/sense/3erules/race_modron.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ModronAnim.gif http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/aprilfools_modron3.jpg http://perso.orange.fr/nicolas.chaudron/Images/E%20PS%20Modron.jpg http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Campaigns/Planescape/modron.jpg Now tell me they don't look stupid, silly, cartoonish and utterly incompatible with imagery of other planescape figures. I don't think you can honestly do that. Formians and inevitables, on the other hand, look way more cool.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:26 PM	No, the modrons are there in the 3e Manual of the Planes. Page 129, there's even a little illustration of a modron there standing on the schematic map of the plane, but they're pretty marginalized in the details of mechanus therein compared to prior editions. really? Hmm, I gotta look more into that,
Phantom Llama 06-09-07, 05:51 PM	Now tell me they don't look stupid, silly, cartoonish and utterly incompatible with imagery of other planescape figures. I don't think you can honestly do that. Formians and inevitables, on the other hand, look way more cool. No, Formians suck, and have the added disadvantage that they look far too similar. More importantly though, Modrons are only a tweak away from looking excellent, whereas Formians would need to be redesigned from the ground up. Giant centaur-ants is an inherently flawed concept. Of course Inevitables rock, but we all already knew that.
Arbourean 06-09-07, 06:08 PM	Cast my vote for getting rid of the Formians and bringing the Modron back. Oh, and I think LoP the novel tells quite a bit about her, though I cannot claim to be any expert of Planescape, as I only had the box set.
turalisj 06-09-07, 06:14 PM	Question: What if every god decided to aide eachother in taking down the LoP, saying they are tired of some self-righteous :censored: who keeps them out of a city.
sooperspook 06-09-07, 06:51 PM	It's kind of hard to make that kind of agreement when the Lady of Pain never speaks. She just floats around Sigil dispensing her brand of justice as needed. Apart from that, she's just there. This may be because I'm just some berk who never knew much about Planescape, but apart from keeping the residents of Sigil in line and the gods out, the Lady just seems to aimlessly wander the city. Just because the Lady never speaks to mortals, doesn't mean she never speaks to deities. Like wise, all that wandering around might simply be how we perceive her. It could just be the equivalent as tapping our fingers or humming a tune while working. I mean, we don't see the sun gods running around physically pushing the sun into place (although that would make a funny word setting:D ). Who knows what she's really doing. Then again, she could just be doing nothing more than observing the mortals running round her city. For all we know Sigil is just bit ant farm to her.
ripvanwormer 06-09-07, 09:31 PM	Just because the Lady never speaks to mortals, doesn't mean she never speaks to deities. If we're to believe Die, Vecna, Die!, the Lady can't speak to anyone, since all her words are in the Language Primeval and have the power to dangerously distort the multiverse. Like wise, all that wandering around might simply be how we perceive her. This implies that anyone's ever seen the Lady "wandering around." In fact she's rarely, if ever, seen at all. When she is spotted, she's usually on a mission, eliminating a serious threat to the city's stability. That's the opposite of wandering, really. When she's not seen, nobody knows what she's doing: she could be sitting on a throne somewhere beneath the city's streets, dabus servitors washing her feet, or she may simply wink out of existence until she's once again needed. Some believe the Lady of Pain and Sigil are one and the same. The female form that's occasionally spotted is something like an avatar, but her true form is the city itself. She may not exist at all. She may be an illusion created by the dabus, and the true power is theirs, some collective ability to control the portals and destroy the city's enemies that they hide from the knowledge of others through their "Lady of Pain" ruse.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:51 PM	Consitering the city's anthema to the gods and affiliation with portals, one may suspect that the Imaskari had something to do with the city.
ripvanwormer 06-09-07, 10:04 PM	Consitering the city's anthema to the gods and affiliation with portals, one may suspect that the Imaskari had something to do with the city. One may suspect that (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-422461.html), yes.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-09-07, 11:10 PM	What are the Imaskari? I'm assuming it's some sort of ancient empire like Netheril and Illefarn on Aber-Toril, but I'm not sure.
ripvanwormer 06-10-07, 12:25 PM	What are the Imaskari? I'm assuming it's some sort of ancient empire like Netheril and Illefarn on Aber-Toril, but I'm not sure. Yes. They were based in what is now called the Hordelands about 4000 years ago. They enslaved the ancestors of the present-day inhabitants of Mulhorand and Unther, taking them from their native world (possibly Earth) and relocating them to Toril. They were brilliant creators of portal magic and magic that targeted or inhibits the divine. They created an epic spell that sealed off the entire Mulhorandi (Egyptian) and Untheric (Sumerian/Babylonian) pantheons from influencing Toril except through avatars. A mysterious plague decimated them and the rebellion of their Mulani slaves finished them off, although an advanced and sophisticated Imaskari society still exists in the Underdark (though they've lost their anti-theistic prejudices). The Lady of Pain has been suspected to use disease as a weapon, as this seems to have been what killed off much of the Free League after the Great Upheaval in Sigil. In theory, she could infect some carriers and send them through portals to decimate populations anywhere in the multiverse, although it's hard to imagine what might motivate her to do such a thing. Sigil, it should be noted, is much more than 10,000 years old, though we don't know exactly how much older it is. The wizard Shekelor died in Sigil about 10,000 years ago, and the even more powerful wizard sometimes known as Gifad was imprisoned in the Labyrinth Stone in Sigil in a time long before that, long enough that even Shekelor considered him to be ancient. My story involves temporal paradoxes and a pre-existing version of Sigil somehow merging with an extradimensional construct of the Imaskari. Or something.
turalisj 06-10-07, 02:53 PM	Sounds like the Altari from Stargate-SG1. They built the stargates, colonised worlds. Eventualy, they were killed by a schism in thier ranks. Those that could 'ascended' or rose to a higher plane of existence. In another galaxy, they were killed by a plague, aka the wraith. :D
Encard 06-10-07, 03:05 PM	Question: What if every god decided to aide eachother in taking down the LoP, saying they are tired of some self-righteous :censored: who keeps them out of a city. Who knows? She doesn't have printed stats. Personally, I'd bet on the Lady in such a bizarre situation, though.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-10-07, 03:35 PM	How is that remotely problematic? She's the mistress of the City of Doors; with portals, she can punt someone anywhere in the multiverse she wants to punt them. She can banish them to ethereal mazes or to Agathion in Pandemonium. It would be child's play for her to transport Gifad through time and then create a portal for him to fall through. I no longer remember my logic. That's what I get for posting when tired.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-10-07, 04:15 PM	It seems the old empires of Faerun had a thing for making portals. Your description of the Imaskari reminds me of another empire, Illefarn. It was located on the Sword Coast and centered in what is now the Mere of Dead Men (a marshy area some distance south from Neverwinter). The empire was formed through an alliance of dwarves and elves and they created these mystical devices called song portals. All that I really know is that the empire had some sort of human guardian who was somehow connected to the Weave and his dedication to protecting Illefarn was absolute and total. At some point, this guardian lost contact with the Weave (I assume this was around the time of the fall of Netheril). Anyway, this guardian is desperate to protect Illefarn, so he connects to the Shadow Weave and becomes twisted into this being called the King of Shadows. When the people of Illefarn found out, they tried to destroy the King of Shadows, who fought them off mercilessly, believing them to be betrayers of Illefarn. In the end, the King of Shadows was sealed into the Shadow Weave and Illefarn basically fragmented, though sometimes adventurers stumble across and activate those ancient song portals. Just sort of struck me as interesting, since both empires built magic portals. (Please note that I'm not sure if any of this is canon, due to the fact that it was created specifically for the game Neverwinter Nights 2.)
Adrez Nesnsid 06-14-07, 05:46 PM	There has been a deity in Sigil before, but the lady kicked him out. So Boccob can get into Sigil if he wants to, but only if the lady allows it. I know about Boccob's library, it in the Deities and Demigods book i believe. I can't recalll which plane it was on. Boccob is much more powerful than Vecna.
ripvanwormer 06-14-07, 06:01 PM	Just sort of struck me as interesting, since both empires built magic portals. Toril is thick with portals; just about any empire that had any wizards of note built them. Netheril, Narfell, Cormanthyr, Shoon: all of them had portals somewhere. Imaskar made it their specialty, though, to the point that wealthy Imaskari didn't even put stairs in their houses; they'd just use portals to get from one floor to the next. And not every floor needed to be in the same city, or even on the same plane.
turalisj 06-14-07, 10:13 PM	Wait, this is FR? You mean the place where dieties act like children and cut off magic when they throw a tantrum?
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 10:38 PM	Deities. I derive pleasure from clarification, Mr. Turalisj.
Arbourean 06-14-07, 11:01 PM	Wait, this is FR? You mean the place where dieties act like children and cut off magic when they throw a tantrum? Yes and it needs a pointless literary device to prevent omniscient beings from destroying the world in a sudden fit of pique. There is no purpose, flavour or otherwise, that Ao serves that the FR pantheon can't do collectively. Apparently the Core manages it, as Oerth and every other world they are worshipped on hasn't been torn apart.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 11:32 PM	I believe Ao is merely an explanation for such laws. Remember, there are many more gods in the Forgotten Realms pantheon than in the regular pantheon. Besides, every campaign setting is different. Maybe the Aber-Toril gods just aren't as willing to compromise as their Oerthling counterparts.
turalisj 06-15-07, 12:56 AM	In my own campaign setting, I use a draconic pantheon for one continent, a roman one for another, an egyptian for another, and viking for the last (yeah, I forgot what the viking panteon was called, even if I can name atleast 5 of the gods). They all seem to get together just fine. Sure, Bahumut might get a little ticked if Thor's clergy are suddenly converting his followers into drunken barbarians. Otherwise, they are perfectly content together. And the Lady of Pain? Locked in a ward with that insane god in the Far Realms where she can't do any harm. :P
Zousha_Omenohu 06-15-07, 01:55 AM	Norse. Unless you're using the strange terms used in Deities and Demigods, in which case it is the Asgardian pantheon.
El_Machinae 06-15-07, 07:43 AM	Yes and it needs a pointless literary device to prevent omniscient beings from destroying the world in a sudden fit of pique. There is no purpose, flavour or otherwise, that Ao serves that the FR pantheon can't do collectively. Apparently the Core manages it, as Oerth and every other world they are worshipped on hasn't been torn apart. Well, he does serve a flavour purpose, I think. While he's not truly necessary for the balance to exist, that doesn't change the fact that (in FR) there's someone above the gods watching the balance.
turalisj 06-15-07, 08:38 AM	Yeah, it's called the Dungeon Master. Or in my case, Dragon Master. :cool:
Zousha_Omenohu 06-15-07, 07:49 PM	The thing is, dragons are powerful, but why haven't they taken over yet? I think that dragons would be able to take over kingdoms and rule them well, regardless of their color. I mean, they're smarter than most humanoid sages, they can dominate small armies in combat, and they look pretty damn amazing! Why aren't they on the thrones of the world, instead of hiding in their lairs?
Alpha_Moose 06-16-07, 12:14 AM	The thing is, dragons are powerful, but why haven't they taken over yet? I think that dragons would be able to take over kingdoms and rule them well, regardless of their color. I mean, they're smarter than most humanoid sages, they can dominate small armies in combat, and they look pretty damn amazing! Why aren't they on the thrones of the world, instead of hiding in their lairs? Because they are meant to sit on huge piles of gold waiting for Adventurers to come kill them and take said gold. That's basically how everything was made, and that's why most of it doesn't make sense. However I'm sure there's an actual 'reason' that involves some stupid god's worshiper's ghost's curse.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-16-07, 01:03 AM	Well, I, for one, welcome our new draconic overlords.
turalisj 06-16-07, 01:41 AM	The thing is, dragons are powerful, but why haven't they taken over yet? I think that dragons would be able to take over kingdoms and rule them well, regardless of their color. I mean, they're smarter than most humanoid sages, they can dominate small armies in combat, and they look pretty damn amazing! Why aren't they on the thrones of the world, instead of hiding in their lairs? It depends on the campaign setting. In one game I run, dragons have seled off all magic (incarnum, psionics, ninefold path, and the new magic thingy found in ToM don't count as magic in my game). Each dragon color has a territory that they cover, with each type (gem, chromatic, metallic) having a continent. And we're not hiding, we're merely waiting for you to kill yourselves so we don't have to. :P
Zousha_Omenohu 06-16-07, 01:47 AM	Did you not read my previous post? I await the day that the dragons will rise into the skies and lay claim to what is rightfully theirs!:dragon:
turalisj 06-16-07, 01:55 AM	Here's an idea: what if the Lady of Pain is actualy an ancient dragon who's race dissapeared eons ago? That would explain her immense power.
User5127 06-16-07, 11:48 AM	Didn't the Nameless One supposedly "survive" the LoP's attacks? I know its from Planescape: Torment. But still, that would be balls cool.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 02:03 PM	No. In fact, the Lady of Pain is one of the few things in the game that can kill him permanently. He does escape from her maze, though. Twice.
El_Machinae 06-16-07, 08:03 PM	The thing is, dragons are powerful, but why haven't they taken over yet? I think that dragons would be able to take over kingdoms and rule them well, regardless of their color. I mean, they're smarter than most humanoid sages, they can dominate small armies in combat, and they look pretty damn amazing! Why aren't they on the thrones of the world, instead of hiding in their lairs? A fairly easy answer is that they don't want to. The day-to-day hassle of rulership might just not be worth it. Maybe they'd be tempted to micro-manage (since they're smarter than everyone else) but then wouldn't feel okay with taking breaks to slumber ... so they don't start in the first place. You'd think they could also dominate a region by making a half-dragon ruling class to rule for them. But it's not common.
McPoyo 06-23-07, 11:53 AM	You've also got the fact that the other races drastically outnumber dragons, and even the strongest dragon will eventually be taken down by massively overwhelming numbers using intelligent tactics, or be forced to flee.
Radiant117 06-23-07, 12:45 PM	Vecna - got in via either a loophole, or was intentionally allowed in for reasons as yet unknown. Regardless though he was unceremoniously kicked out. via a plothole... Put simply, Sigil's too strategically important to let a force to control. If Sigil ever becomes something else than neutral ground (neutral in terms not only of alignment, but also being supportive of/opposed to any plan or idea ever imagined), the multiverse will shatter. Hence, the Lady of Pain. Note that I'm not saying that someone has purposefully put her in there. It's just the way the multiverse works. If there was no one to guard Sigil, the multiverse wouldn't exist. (I believe such reasoning is called "the anthropocentric approach", but I've checked with my local kobolds, and they said it's ok.) That's why the Lady doesn't like to be worshiped. Worshipers want something, and Her Serenity doesn't stand for *anything*. And anyone who mentions the words "faction" and "war" in one sentence in my campaign is asking for a folding chair treatment. I use this number to google up my posts: 18577
Zousha_Omenohu 06-23-07, 07:06 PM	Asking as an unwashed initiate into the D&Dverse, what is or was this Faction War? *whips out a folded steel umbrella and awaits the promised folding chair punishment and the rotten fruit that is doubtlessly hurtling towards me*
Shemeska the Marauder 06-23-07, 07:44 PM	Asking as an unwashed initiate into the D&Dverse, what is or was this Faction War? *whips out a folded steel umbrella and awaits the promised folding chair punishment and the rotten fruit that is doubtlessly hurtling towards me* It was a sourcebook/module produced in late 2nd edition that saw some rather major changes to the power structure of Sigil. Namely, the heads of the city's factions were told by the Lady of Pain (through a dabus) that "This city no longer tolerates your faction. Abandon it or die." Some of the factions rather than giving up their beliefs and structure, simply left the city entirely and set up on other planes (the Fraternity of Order migrated back to Mechanus, the Dustmen scattered to the negative energy plane, thanatos in the abyss, and elsewhere, etc.). Other factions held their beliefs but dissolved their formal faction structure and kept on doing virtually the same thing they'd been doing, just without the same official political power in the city. Some factions however died (the Mercykillers split apart into two ideological groups), and others merged together (the Sign of One and the Believers of the Source merged to form the Minds Eye). The plot of the adventure was that Duke Rowan Darkwood of the Fated faction sparked civil war among the factions and made a power grab, all while seeking to use an artifact known as the Labyrinth Gem to power a spell to reorder Sigil to his whim. The spell had been cast but not completed untold millennia before by a wizard who had challenged the Lady of Pain and whose soul had been locked away inside the gemstone. Darkwood ends up getting mazed, then getting thrown back in time, and eventually uses the gemstone and snuffs the life of the mage inside... right before getting hurled back in time again where he eventually becomes that very same ancient wizard who challenged the Lady.
Khatoblepas 06-23-07, 08:05 PM	via a plothole... Put simply, Sigil's too strategically important to let a force to control. If Sigil ever becomes something else than neutral ground (neutral in terms not only of alignment, but also being supportive of/opposed to any plan or idea ever imagined), the multiverse will shatter. Hence, the Lady of Pain. Does this mean that the Lady of Pain's power is not limitless and too great to imagine, but only enough to nullify the force threatening neutrality? Say, in the case of someone trying to introduce an alignment to the city, she has enough power to fight back with an equal force. This gives her an illusion of power, but she is no more powerful than the force she is trying to prevent. I imagine the Lady of Pain isn't a creature, per se, but a metaphor. Even her chosen methods of punishment are symbolic: Flaying: Punishment for traitors and those who try and challenge power. Mazing: Prehistoric ritual for trapping malevolent spirits. Obviously, the Lady of Pain is dispassionate, and being completely neutral has no ego or preferences. She takes no pleasure in punishing people, and probably doesn't even notice. She is merely the counterweight to stop Sigil from going off balance. This, assuming it's true, means that she cannot be beaten. The Lady of Pain is a device for maintaining balance throughout all the planes. Her statlessness only serves to reinforce her status as a foil. She can beat gods if gods go against her. She can beat 1st level commoners if commoners go against her. All other times, she floats through the streets, utterly powerless, and only gains power if something with power enters Sigil and starts threatening the balance. This is only so that Sigil doesn't go tumbling down into the nether, as her power is directly opposed to the power of those opposed to her, thus keeping the seesaw that is Sigil balanced. I make no sense, don't I? :(
ripvanwormer 06-23-07, 09:26 PM	I make no sense, don't I? :( You make perfect sense.
Lobsopdoy 06-23-07, 09:32 PM	Actually, I think that's a cool idea.
turalisj 06-24-07, 12:10 AM	I know one godly force the even the LoP can't stop.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-24-07, 02:18 AM	Turalisj, do tell. And as for that whole Faction War thing, man that's messed up! Grandfather paradoxes are just messy.
turalisj 06-24-07, 02:32 AM	The Dungeon Master. If she stopped the DM, the game would collapse and she would cease to exist completly.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-24-07, 02:54 AM	Ohhhhhhh, now I understand. For all her bluster, she's no match for the power of DM fiat. I see it now... DM: Okay, in this setting, Sigil is strictly regimented into sections controlled by the factions. LoP: The Factions are not welcome here. Abandon them or die. *DM snaps his fingers* *LoP dissapears with a loud "PLOT"* DM: Okay, people! Let's roll up those stats!
turalisj 06-24-07, 02:57 AM	Exactly. She is nothing compared to the almighty DM. Heck, a DM can make her a trans if he wants :P
Zousha_Omenohu 06-24-07, 02:59 AM	Trans? What does that mean?
Asmodeur 06-24-07, 06:58 AM	^^ Transvestite..
dungeoneerphil 06-24-07, 08:50 AM	Exactly. She is nothing compared to the almighty DM. Heck, a DM can make her a trans if he wants :P Tried that. She didn't like it and was quick to let me know that. Took four weeks for the swelling to go down. :weep:
Phantom Llama 06-24-07, 10:03 AM	The Dungeon Master. If she stopped the DM, the game would collapse and she would cease to exist completly. Actually, I tried to overrule the Lady as a DM once. When I was walking home later all the streets seemed to repeat and fold back on one another. Thankfully the maze had an Internet café, so I'm not completely out of contact.
turalisj 06-24-07, 10:41 AM	Tried that. She didn't like it and was quick to let me know that. Took four weeks for the swelling to go down. :weep: That's because you aren't a dragon.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-24-07, 05:48 PM	You know, that's an interesting point. I've never heard of the possibility that dragons may be encountered in Sigil. Maybe as they age they find themselves too huge to walk down the streets? Maybe the portals don't allow dragons through? Why aren't there dragons in the City of Doors?
turalisj 06-24-07, 05:59 PM	Because we control the LoP. It's just that you don't realise it.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-24-07, 06:05 PM	Then why don't you roam the city as you please, casually sowing destricution in your wake?
turalisj 06-24-07, 06:10 PM	It's not as much fun. I'd rather subtly pit the gods of magic against eachother, so that psioncis can finaly take it's place as the true power.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-24-07, 08:10 PM	You know, that's an interesting point. I've never heard of the possibility that dragons may be encountered in Sigil. Maybe as they age they find themselves too huge to walk down the streets? Maybe the portals don't allow dragons through? Why aren't there dragons in the City of Doors? There probably are more than people might think, but they likely walk around in humanoid form because of reasons of practicality. After all, the city is a bit cramped in some wards, and in others it's still a busy place, making a full-sized dragon somewhat awkward in its true form. Plus, a lot of mortals are wigged out by the idea of dragons, and a dragon walking around in its true form is likely to cause problems at times, and dragons likely don't want to run the risk of accidentally sparking a riot and getting mazed in the process, they have too much to lose. At least one dragon (or part of one, nobody knows...) hangs out (literally) behind the main bar in the Fortune's Wheel tavern and gambling hall in the Lady's Ward. The dragon, or the head of a dragon, appears to emerge from the wall, and might be either a dragon stuck in a portal, or an illusion, or an animated object, or a projection of the actual dragon that might own the place. He's hard not to notice, but any other dragons in the city appear to have kept a low profile.
Radiant117 06-26-07, 08:37 AM	I know one godly force the even the LoP can't stop. I know of two. Monte Cook and Ray Vallese. LoP: The Factions are not welcome here. Abandon them or die. *DM snaps his fingers* *LoP dissapears with a loud "PLOT"* DM: Okay, people! Let's roll up those stats! I get the "PLOT" reference. Does that mean that I can have a :cookie:? Destroying the world is IMAO a dirty trick. That FW book has the stench of a Vogon. From the monetary point of view: I have the sourcebooks and such, but they are no longer valid. There are things that I do not understand. For example, FRCS. The Realms have seen many world-shaking events and such, but when you look closer, you'll see they don't significantly change the balance of power. "Tired of Zhents? Hey, what's up there in the sky?" Yet, when I open my Villains Lorebook [download link] (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads), I see that most of them had already been killed! Novels create villains, but eventually kill them off. Now what fun is it? If you decide to adapt Tomb Raider, forget about Lara Croft. She's your enemy, and you need to kill her. (...) If vampires are loose on Sunnydale, your characters should stake them through the heart. Buffy and the Scooby Gang should not. All's Fair in Lovecraft and Warcraft is an article on "making other people's worlds your own", i.e. adapting published source material for your own campaign and making games based on books, movies, videogames and the like. A must-read for everyone. Also check out Spirits of the Tempest, Dark Thane Macbeth, Lear the Giant King and everything else by Mike Selinker. To continue with the FRCS example, lots of people I know like to place their campaigns in the Realms' not-so-distant past - implying the PCs' ability to change the "official present". But it's actually a positive example - whatever the time period is, my 1996 FRCS is as useful as ever. Effort has been made so as not to detract from the fun of people whose characters' gods have been recently killed (and that was the most drastic change by far), so for all its shortcomings, it's a great campaign setting. Now that FW book is totally booped up. Her Serenity couldn't just lock up one leatherhead and be done with it? The combined belief of all the bashers that no one can give the Lady the laugh was nothing against one leatherhead's barmy plan to take over Sigil? Hey, there's a *lot* of barmies in the Winged Tower, why isn't the multiverse falling apart? Oh, not at all. The Lady's as powerful as ever. It's just she's supposedly got tired of Planescape Campaign Setting. Say farewell to your factols and switch to third edition? Sort of Apocalypse Stone, but with one important diffrerence: the latter was just an adventure which the DM could opt to use or not (though it's *highly* debatable whether the DM can destroy the homebrew campaign world if he feels like it), the former is an official end for Planescape, as close to an actual apocalypse as it could be (it even has its own stone). Not let me put it straight. FW is actually a masterfully written book as it is. The plot is artfully woven, and the encounters are exotic and intriguing. All in all, a must-read for any Planescape fan. It's the idea that's totally wrong. Planescape may be not the most best-selling CS ever, but throwing it to the winds *like that* is a dirty trick. Not that I mourn TSR a lot***. Read their modules carefully and you'll see railroading grandiose and DM fiat enough to make the Tomb of Horrors look like My Little Pony (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060401a) and 3E magic item pricing seem as simple as the multiplication table. I really hated Jules Verne for blowing up the island. I similarly have no love for the design team who decided to destroy Planescape. Fortunately, it's a role-playing game, not a novel or a movie. I found a DM who ran campaigns in Sigil and actually *played* Faction War. For those who forget, I remind that the plot is centered around a sort of an epic WISH spell that anyone can cast, given the right circumstances and components. The catch was that the wish had to be expressed as a single word. Therefore, we wished for "REVERSAL". And, having thus saved Sigil from a near-certain doom, we returned to our homebrew campaigns. I use this number to google up my posts: 18577 ***Dragon and Dungeon is another matter entirely.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-26-07, 08:51 AM	I get the "PLOT" reference. Does that mean that I can have a :cookie:? Here you are: :cookie:
ripvanwormer 06-26-07, 11:50 AM	Now that FW book is totally booped up. Her Serenity couldn't just lock up one leatherhead and be done with it? The combined belief of all the bashers that no one can give the Lady the laugh was nothing against one leatherhead's barmy plan to take over Sigil? Hey, there's a *lot* of barmies in the Winged Tower, why isn't the multiverse falling apart? There are two possible reasons. 1. The Lady of Pain was toying with him. This is actually what the book implies. He could have been simply locked up, or flayed, but she decided to have a little fun instead, or teach some more powerful and memorable lesson to anyone powerful enough to understand what had happened, or complete some mystical rite for reasons of her own. This is what the book implies, and it's the most likely explanation. 2. Rowan Darkwood was just that good. He's the ultimate munchkin adventurer, better than anyone who ever lived. He's the embodiment of everyone's over-the-top, god-killing, chaotic-good-so-I-can-do-whatever-I-want-and-still-be-a-hero favorite long-time epic PC who adventured through every classic module regardless of what world it was intended for, who got all the toys and killed all the monsters, and decided to take over Sigil next. For the greater good, of course. He's better than Elminster, better than Raistlin, better than Shekelor, who's been himself hyped up as such a legendary threat. The mysterious wizard who preceded Shekelor, who's been hyped up in sourcebook after sourcebook as the cutter who almost defeated the Lady, the gem containing his soul the ultimate prize - you really think he can be accurately characterized as "just one leatherhead?" Really? He's not "just one leatherhead," he's THE leatherhead, the greatest one there ever was. The Lady of Pain isn't omnipotent. No one ever said she was. The combined belief that no one can give her the laugh is powerful, yes - but it's hardly the most powerful belief there is. People believe all sorts of things, believe them devoutly, and most people across the multiverse have never even heard of the Lady. Who is to say what sorts of beliefs the ancient wizard had harnessed in his time wandering the planes? I think it's important that the Lady of Pain is defeatable. Not statted - that's a senseless demystification. But defeatable. Sigil can be threatened, eventually the Spire will collapse and the multiverse itself will end. There can be real tension in the campaign, and the Lady of Pain can't always be counted on to bail the PCs out. It's just she's supposedly got tired of Planescape Campaign Setting[/B]. Say farewell to your factols and switch to third edition? Sort of Apocalypse Stone You're factually incorrect. The designers responsible (Cook and Vallese) have said over and over again that they never intended for Faction War to end Planescape. And, in fact, it didn't - The Inner Planes and Tales From the Infinite Staircase both appeared after Faction War, mentioning some of its changes. And there were two other Planescape accessories scheduled for the next year - they eventually became the generic Vortex of Madness and Warriors of Heaven, but the designers at the time, back in 1998, said they were planned to be Planescape books. It didn't end the setting any more than Squaring the Circle in Hellbound ended the setting. It just changed it. The designers had said they intended to publish more Planescape adventures that took place outside of Sigil for a while, expanding the reach of the setting and exploring what happens to the factions outside their former home base, and then eventually publishing an adventure where the factions came back in some form. And it had nothing to do with 3rd edition. Not let me put it straight. FW is actually a masterfully written book as it is. No, it wasn't. It was kind of crappy. It was a railroad, and some of the events in it, the ways the factions reacted for the sake of the plot, were out of character and unlikely. It's not without merit, but it needs some serious adjustment to be usable. But it wasn't the end of Planescape. Shemmy's run Planescape campaigns for years, and they've all been post-Faction War. I myself wouldn't run after the war until I'd exhausted all the plot hooks from The Factol's Manifesto, but what happens after that? That's the time to give the city a shake-up so that everything can become fresh again, and - face it - all those plot hooks are leading to war anyway. Rowan's attempt to take over the city was discussed way back in the original boxed set, and it was inevitable that *something* was going to come of it - and this was the most interesting possible something. After the war? Belief doesn't stop being power, and new powers emerge from the ashes. New philosophies, new power players, new intrigues. None of the old limitations, none of the old hidebound conventions apply anymore. The old factions haven't gone away either - some have gone underground, some have gone to other planes, some have become schisms in new factions waiting to burst at the seams. The beliefs that they embodied haven't died, none of them, and they're all waiting to reappear in new forms. The Sign of One, the Godmen, the Dustmen - don't count any of them out. Yet we're no longer limited to them, either, and we're not limited to their original forms. There are new leaders, new alignments, new manifestations of belief. After the Faction War, Planescape gets more exciting than ever.