Book of Vile Darness vs Fiendish Codex I/II? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Vile Darness vs Fiendish Codex I/II? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fion
03-06-07, 02:16 PM Heya folks, I'm working on completing my 'planes' collection. I've so far gotten Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes and Fiend Folio. My campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms and I have all the FR material I want for now. So it comes down to this

Book of Vile Darkness (which I've heard all good things about)

or

Fiendish Codex 1
Fiendish Codex 2

Both of which I've heard mixed opinions. Thought I'd get some opinions on this board. Now I'm not certain if Book of Vile Darkness is 3.0 and the Fiendish Codex' are its 3.5e replacements, or if the Codex's are just more drawn out versions with more info.

Fill me in so I can go out and get them. :)

Edit: Personally I think it all pales next to 2nd ed Planescape. How I miss that setting.
sciborg2
03-06-07, 03:01 PM FCI was the best in my opinion -- but I'm partial to the Abyss over Baator. BoVD has some good ideas, some interesting PrCs, but a lot of it is a little over the top.
Fion
03-06-07, 03:22 PM Thanks for the opinion. :) Now if I could get a bunch more.

Personally I've always favored Devils over Demons (Baatezu over Tanar'ri)
Coridan
03-06-07, 03:32 PM I'm more of a demon fan myself, I can tell you what's in both though

BoVD - it's 3.0, and a lot of the stuff in it (spells/domains) have been reprinted in the Completes and other books. It has stats on some of the demon lords and I think some of the archdevils or whatever they're called. But they're really powerful like CR 30 minimum.

Has a lot of good PrCs though for people who are devil/demon worshippers

FC1 - Goes in-depth on just about several demon lords, readjusts the power levels so that the demon lords are closer to CR 22. A lot of detail on each of the demon lords actual layers too.

FC2 I'm not sure about but it's probably a lot like FC1 except relating to Devils.
Sleepwalker13666
03-06-07, 03:40 PM Fiendish COdex I-II are decent books it covers more details about the hells and the abyss than vile darkness did, but they do not make vile darkness obsolete.
If you liked draconomicon then you should have fun with the codexes.
The Serge7
03-06-07, 03:48 PM The Bookd of Vile Darkness is substantially different from the two Fiendish Codices.

BoVD is designed pretty much down the line for both DMs and players. It is designed not so much as a planar text as a text for how D&D-style "mature" evil can be introduced into a game. The "Lords of Evil" chapter and the monsters are, in many ways, something of "add-ons" in that they don't technically fit into the rest of the design for the text, but don't necessarily contradict the text either. This book is for DMs and players in need of guidance for evil in their games, not for those interested in exploring the planes.

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss and Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells are both plane and monster specific books (in the latter case, like the Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness. Although players will receive some value out of it (primarily due to the feats, spells, and PrCs), DMs will find greater value through the two. The books are about demons and devils, respecitively, their planes of dominion, their origins, and their rulers.

Of the two, I think FCI is the better, despite my preference for devils over demons. FCI did a much better job consolidating materials from all three editions of D&D, had far greater provocative language, and provided more interesting approaches for using demons in a game than FCII. FCII, while not a terrible book, is not as well written as its peer, and does not capture the feel of previous editions as well, although it's clear that this was attempted to one degree or another in some areas.

In the end, I would recommend all three. BoVD is for a different (although related) target audience with a different set of goals in mind than the FCs, while the FCs feature two different monster categories.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-06-07, 03:49 PM FC:I is the best book thus far printed for 3.x D&D. I like it that much.

FC:II is good, but it has some flaws that keep it from being in the same league as FC:I.

BoVD was ok, but its conception of evil was a bit shallow. Icky =! evil, and the worst evil can be rather mundane, or even beautiful on the surface. The book was ok -certainly an order of magnitude better than the BoED- but you'd do better with FC:I and FC:II.
Fion
03-06-07, 04:15 PM Thanks for all the replies. I'll see if I can find a couple of them in a local bookstore so I can run through them real quick. But it looks like the FC books are more what I'm looking for. :)
zook1shoe666
03-06-07, 06:09 PM yeah the FCI and II are planar books, while the BoVD is, like said earlier, evil = icky = bad :-p
Singer_of_the_Song
03-06-07, 11:45 PM FCII is mostly just a rehash of older material about Baator. Get it only if you wanted updated stats for devils/don't have the older books.
CrescentScar
03-07-07, 03:50 PM As a person that has their own Planar Collection (and is working on creating a Planar Powers Handbook that combines all the <i>Core Beliefs</i> and <i>Demonomicon</i> Dragon articles), I'll have to parrot Shemska...

I used to be a huge fan of BOVD, until FC:1. Along with Stormwrack, I'd have to say FC:1 is the best book WOTC's put out in 3.5. It is what I think of as a _complete_ book- it has its own settings, monsters, classes, and spells. Sure, lots of books have that, but FC:1 really embellishes and fattens the material in it. As a DM, more than a player, it's an awesome read, and very useful.

FC:2 isn't bad, but it can't compare to FC 1. While I enjoyed the heck out of the propoganda-myth, and Asmodeus is arguably my favorite D&D character, the book just tends to draaaaaaag on. Unlike the layers of the Abyss, the 9 Hells seem to be repetitive and bland. That may sound like demon-bias, but I think it has more to do with the presentation than the substance.

BOVD is good, but its core is wholly updated for 3.5 in FC:1. While I like much of the art in BOVD better (Demogorgon aside), there is just too much awesome in FC1.

Plus, it has Dagon, and Dagon is awesome.

If you're scared off by the "Weaker" demon lords, there's an easy Make Your Demon Lord Epic guide in FC1. (Or, you can be a freak like me and collect all the Demonomicon Of Iggilwiv articles, which are amazing supplements).
Jaerom Darkwind
03-07-07, 06:33 PM If you're scared off by the "Weaker" demon lords, there's an easy Make Your Demon Lord Epic guide in FC1.If this is a reference to the section on advancing demon lords, you should note that it is utterly nonsensical and in no way resembles a balanced system for anything.
Singer_of_the_Song
03-07-07, 09:45 PM If this is a reference to the section on advancing demon lords, you should note that it is utterly nonsensical and in no way resembles a balanced system for anything.

What's wrong with it?
Jaerom Darkwind
03-08-07, 12:44 AM Whole threads have been devoted to answering that question, so I'll refer you to those.
sciborg2
03-08-07, 03:07 AM any chance of links to go with those referals?;)
PunkRockBard
03-08-07, 02:43 PM Yeah....FC I is the best hands down.

Nonetheless...FC II is -definitely- worth buying. It has many many goodies in it. The change of the sixth layer is a great example of the good.
zook1shoe666
03-08-07, 11:14 PM yeah the FC2 has one of the most interesting rp-ing races EVER.... the Hellbred.
Singer_of_the_Song
03-08-07, 11:44 PM yeah the FC2 has one of the most interesting rp-ing races EVER.... the Hellbred.

I fell asleep reading that part.
zook1shoe666
03-09-07, 12:24 AM well... to each their own, i liked it and a bunch of people i know, did too
Singer_of_the_Song
03-09-07, 01:25 AM well... to each their own, i liked it and a bunch of people i know, did too

Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day.
ssvegeta555
03-11-07, 07:46 PM Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day.

:rofl:
zook1shoe666
03-11-07, 08:18 PM Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day.

lol... good ;)
Doom_Linnorm
03-12-07, 11:19 AM I recomend all three but here's my priority order.

FC:I
FC:II
BoVD

I love all three books, also the codices use a bit of the material from BoVD, so without the BoVD you can't bring out 100% of the codices.
However, overall the codices are more usefull books in my opnion.
The BoVD however doesn't just stick to fiends, it has a decent collection of cruel and flavourfull magic items, some nice creepy spells to go with em and also some good suplemental rules for just generaly evil things.
I personaly love the drugs, diseases, torture devices, lasting effects of evil and all that other junk in chapter 2.

But I've been japping on to long. BoVD isn't just "evil = icky"..... it just takes a while to peel away that impression after your first readthrough.
(I've read it a few dozen times cover to cover mind you.)
Still, if fiends are your game, the Codices are the better choice.
Romtos
03-12-07, 11:36 AM FC:I is the best book thus far printed for 3.x D&D. I like it that much.

FC:II is good, but it has some flaws that keep it from being in the same league as FC:I.

BoVD was ok, but its conception of evil was a bit shallow. Icky =! evil, and the worst evil can be rather mundane, or even beautiful on the surface. The book was ok -certainly an order of magnitude better than the BoED- but you'd do better with FC:I and FC:II.

Which flaws? :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fion 03-06-07, 02:16 PM	Heya folks, I'm working on completing my 'planes' collection. I've so far gotten Planar Handbook, Manual of the Planes and Fiend Folio. My campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms and I have all the FR material I want for now. So it comes down to this Book of Vile Darkness (which I've heard all good things about) or Fiendish Codex 1 Fiendish Codex 2 Both of which I've heard mixed opinions. Thought I'd get some opinions on this board. Now I'm not certain if Book of Vile Darkness is 3.0 and the Fiendish Codex' are its 3.5e replacements, or if the Codex's are just more drawn out versions with more info. Fill me in so I can go out and get them. :) Edit: Personally I think it all pales next to 2nd ed Planescape. How I miss that setting.
sciborg2 03-06-07, 03:01 PM	FCI was the best in my opinion -- but I'm partial to the Abyss over Baator. BoVD has some good ideas, some interesting PrCs, but a lot of it is a little over the top.
Fion 03-06-07, 03:22 PM	Thanks for the opinion. :) Now if I could get a bunch more. Personally I've always favored Devils over Demons (Baatezu over Tanar'ri)
Coridan 03-06-07, 03:32 PM	I'm more of a demon fan myself, I can tell you what's in both though BoVD - it's 3.0, and a lot of the stuff in it (spells/domains) have been reprinted in the Completes and other books. It has stats on some of the demon lords and I think some of the archdevils or whatever they're called. But they're really powerful like CR 30 minimum. Has a lot of good PrCs though for people who are devil/demon worshippers FC1 - Goes in-depth on just about several demon lords, readjusts the power levels so that the demon lords are closer to CR 22. A lot of detail on each of the demon lords actual layers too. FC2 I'm not sure about but it's probably a lot like FC1 except relating to Devils.
Sleepwalker13666 03-06-07, 03:40 PM	Fiendish COdex I-II are decent books it covers more details about the hells and the abyss than vile darkness did, but they do not make vile darkness obsolete. If you liked draconomicon then you should have fun with the codexes.
The Serge7 03-06-07, 03:48 PM	The Bookd of Vile Darkness is substantially different from the two Fiendish Codices. BoVD is designed pretty much down the line for both DMs and players. It is designed not so much as a planar text as a text for how D&D-style "mature" evil can be introduced into a game. The "Lords of Evil" chapter and the monsters are, in many ways, something of "add-ons" in that they don't technically fit into the rest of the design for the text, but don't necessarily contradict the text either. This book is for DMs and players in need of guidance for evil in their games, not for those interested in exploring the planes. Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss and Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells are both plane and monster specific books (in the latter case, like the Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness. Although players will receive some value out of it (primarily due to the feats, spells, and PrCs), DMs will find greater value through the two. The books are about demons and devils, respecitively, their planes of dominion, their origins, and their rulers. Of the two, I think FCI is the better, despite my preference for devils over demons. FCI did a much better job consolidating materials from all three editions of D&D, had far greater provocative language, and provided more interesting approaches for using demons in a game than FCII. FCII, while not a terrible book, is not as well written as its peer, and does not capture the feel of previous editions as well, although it's clear that this was attempted to one degree or another in some areas. In the end, I would recommend all three. BoVD is for a different (although related) target audience with a different set of goals in mind than the FCs, while the FCs feature two different monster categories.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 03:49 PM	FC:I is the best book thus far printed for 3.x D&D. I like it that much. FC:II is good, but it has some flaws that keep it from being in the same league as FC:I. BoVD was ok, but its conception of evil was a bit shallow. Icky =! evil, and the worst evil can be rather mundane, or even beautiful on the surface. The book was ok -certainly an order of magnitude better than the BoED- but you'd do better with FC:I and FC:II.
Fion 03-06-07, 04:15 PM	Thanks for all the replies. I'll see if I can find a couple of them in a local bookstore so I can run through them real quick. But it looks like the FC books are more what I'm looking for. :)
zook1shoe666 03-06-07, 06:09 PM	yeah the FCI and II are planar books, while the BoVD is, like said earlier, evil = icky = bad :-p
Singer_of_the_Song 03-06-07, 11:45 PM	FCII is mostly just a rehash of older material about Baator. Get it only if you wanted updated stats for devils/don't have the older books.
CrescentScar 03-07-07, 03:50 PM	As a person that has their own Planar Collection (and is working on creating a Planar Powers Handbook that combines all the <i>Core Beliefs</i> and <i>Demonomicon</i> Dragon articles), I'll have to parrot Shemska... I used to be a huge fan of BOVD, until FC:1. Along with Stormwrack, I'd have to say FC:1 is the best book WOTC's put out in 3.5. It is what I think of as a _complete_ book- it has its own settings, monsters, classes, and spells. Sure, lots of books have that, but FC:1 really embellishes and fattens the material in it. As a DM, more than a player, it's an awesome read, and very useful. FC:2 isn't bad, but it can't compare to FC 1. While I enjoyed the heck out of the propoganda-myth, and Asmodeus is arguably my favorite D&D character, the book just tends to draaaaaaag on. Unlike the layers of the Abyss, the 9 Hells seem to be repetitive and bland. That may sound like demon-bias, but I think it has more to do with the presentation than the substance. BOVD is good, but its core is wholly updated for 3.5 in FC:1. While I like much of the art in BOVD better (Demogorgon aside), there is just too much awesome in FC1. Plus, it has Dagon, and Dagon is awesome. If you're scared off by the "Weaker" demon lords, there's an easy Make Your Demon Lord Epic guide in FC1. (Or, you can be a freak like me and collect all the Demonomicon Of Iggilwiv articles, which are amazing supplements).
Jaerom Darkwind 03-07-07, 06:33 PM	If you're scared off by the "Weaker" demon lords, there's an easy Make Your Demon Lord Epic guide in FC1.If this is a reference to the section on advancing demon lords, you should note that it is utterly nonsensical and in no way resembles a balanced system for anything.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-07-07, 09:45 PM	If this is a reference to the section on advancing demon lords, you should note that it is utterly nonsensical and in no way resembles a balanced system for anything. What's wrong with it?
Jaerom Darkwind 03-08-07, 12:44 AM	Whole threads have been devoted to answering that question, so I'll refer you to those.
sciborg2 03-08-07, 03:07 AM	any chance of links to go with those referals?;)
PunkRockBard 03-08-07, 02:43 PM	Yeah....FC I is the best hands down. Nonetheless...FC II is -definitely- worth buying. It has many many goodies in it. The change of the sixth layer is a great example of the good.
zook1shoe666 03-08-07, 11:14 PM	yeah the FC2 has one of the most interesting rp-ing races EVER.... the Hellbred.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-08-07, 11:44 PM	yeah the FC2 has one of the most interesting rp-ing races EVER.... the Hellbred. I fell asleep reading that part.
zook1shoe666 03-09-07, 12:24 AM	well... to each their own, i liked it and a bunch of people i know, did too
Singer_of_the_Song 03-09-07, 01:25 AM	well... to each their own, i liked it and a bunch of people i know, did too Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day.
ssvegeta555 03-11-07, 07:46 PM	Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day. :rofl:
zook1shoe666 03-11-07, 08:18 PM	Oh, I never said it was bad. I was just tired that day. lol... good ;)
Doom_Linnorm 03-12-07, 11:19 AM	I recomend all three but here's my priority order. FC:I FC:II BoVD I love all three books, also the codices use a bit of the material from BoVD, so without the BoVD you can't bring out 100% of the codices. However, overall the codices are more usefull books in my opnion. The BoVD however doesn't just stick to fiends, it has a decent collection of cruel and flavourfull magic items, some nice creepy spells to go with em and also some good suplemental rules for just generaly evil things. I personaly love the drugs, diseases, torture devices, lasting effects of evil and all that other junk in chapter 2. But I've been japping on to long. BoVD isn't just "evil = icky"..... it just takes a while to peel away that impression after your first readthrough. (I've read it a few dozen times cover to cover mind you.) Still, if fiends are your game, the Codices are the better choice.
Romtos 03-12-07, 11:36 AM	FC:I is the best book thus far printed for 3.x D&D. I like it that much. FC:II is good, but it has some flaws that keep it from being in the same league as FC:I. BoVD was ok, but its conception of evil was a bit shallow. Icky =! evil, and the worst evil can be rather mundane, or even beautiful on the surface. The book was ok -certainly an order of magnitude better than the BoED- but you'd do better with FC:I and FC:II. Which flaws? :)