Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gravenhurst 04-25-08, 01:01 AM	And when they die what happens with their essence? It is divine because a deity gave it a new body as a petitioner though it is still dead? On Acheron dead commanders merge with the plane itself, where I thought that only happened in Hell or the Abyss because most evil creatures aren't humanoid, and you must be humanoid to have a soul. Can a petitioner be brought back from the merging with the plane? Does a petitioner have a soul? If souls are absorbed by a god, thus consumed, are petitioners officially dead? It has been discussed that fiends become part of their plane as they are created by the alignment of the plane instead of by divine, as fiends can not be gods (though this looks like its changing in 4th E and there are exception like Orcus). And now the prince or lord of Hell or the Abyss channels the planes energy to grant spells to a cleric but it isn't divine magic? Or they are sponsored by an evil deity? What does the fiend get out of it, souls? The deity is losing out then because all deities would want to keep their own souls and giving them to a fiend is basically killing them, are they not? And what happens to all of those disembodied spirits/souls not granted to become a petitioner or a proxy or something else special in their gods eye? do they wander around? Are they ghosts? Shade? Incorporeal? What? Can a god release a soul when it is performing a task for him, say as a proxy or a petitioner? maybe if the summoner is stronger than the granting god? I have been reading Ghostwalk campaign for some insight on the topic. Any input folks?
Rohano 04-25-08, 02:50 PM	Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Questions 1 and 2: As an outsider (essentially a soul that takes the form of a creature rather than a soul inside of a creature, like other creature types), if a petitioner is destroyed, it is permanently removed from all existence. They can die just like inert souls can be absorbed, eaten or destroyed. It may help to think of a petitioner as a soul with arms and legs (or other limbs). Question 3: If a petitioner exists in service of a god, as most do, then it may have celestial or infernal qualities, but that does not qualify it as having any divine traits, atleast not by the rules of divinity. Question 4: If a petitioner is been recreated as another outsider, as many planes function, it cannot be returned to its initial petitioner form short of a god's direct intercedence. Question 5: A petitioner is a soul. Question 6: According to the fluff of some gods, an absorbed petitioner would probably become "part of the god." But this essentially means that the petioner has been permanently destroyed, though a DM may rule that the destruction of the deity will release absorbed souls, depending on the god. Question 7: As I recall, there are good outsiders that serve planes rather than gods, and are created in a similar way that evil outsiders are. I'd recommend hitting the books and Planescape website, reading creature entries for more information and specifics. In Planescape, gods and other powerful outsiders are not normally referred to as any single creature type. A planar wouldn't walk into a god's domain and tell his pals that the big person on the throne is a "divine outsider" or a "deity," he'd say, "That's the big power here." Powerful outsiders such as archdevils, demon lords and gods are referred to as "powers." This classification may help you to understand that these singular beings are capable of many things involving their plane of residence, whether they're gods or not. Another analogy: think of arcane magic and divine magic. Each has a different source. Arcane magic comes from intricate rituals or from innate power possessed (but uncultivated) by most beings, whereas divine magic takes the form of a prayer to a higher being that is rewarded with a magical act or service. Now think of the infernal planes as a power source. The archdevils and demon lords act as magic brokers, channeling the power of their realms to their cultists. In 3E, these power brokers can only give so much power depending on their own power - Asmodeus might be the big dog in Hell but he can't give legions of epic clerics their arrays of colorful landscape-changing lasers and waves of ghostly calvaries, but Pelor, on the other hand, can, with a little help in the form of the cleric's own inner power (in the form of backlash or experience burn). If in 4E, evil clerics worshipping infernal powers are granted their own form of magic equal to good-aligned divine spells, it will likely be rooted in the new "power source" system, classified as something like "profane magic." Unfortunately, the rules for clerics of evil powers may not be available in the core books, and questions about that system may not be answered for some months. Questions 8, 9 and 10: I doubt that the lords of Hell and the Abyss or whatever the new evil planes are would willingly bow to evil deities just to give their cultists spells, but it could be possible, especially if there's some exchange of souls going on. If a deity is giving souls to a fiend, then the deity is surely getting something important in the bargain. Perhaps direct service from the fiend is enough to warrant handing over some petitioners or captured souls. If I were Nerull, I'd happily hand over a few thousand helpless cultists to get Asmodeus to swear allegiance. Questions 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16: When a being with a soul dies, it is assigned to a god. If it worshipped no god, it goes to an outer plane appropriate to its alignment to be subject to that plane's rules about wandering outsiders. For instance, in Hell, souls of the dead take the form of soul larva that spontaneously appear throughout the plane's depths, and are promptly captured or eaten by nearby devils. In Acheron or in Asgard, a soul immediately takes the form of a warrior to fight an eternal battle. Each plane has its own system, I suppose. A petitioner not in service to a god but taking a definite and sentient form would probably be an incorporeal outsider, though a petitioner that ends up in the fiendish realms takes the form of a larva, which, I guess, is something like a glowing outsider maggot. A petitioner that can't get to the outer realms becomes a ghost. If the death of a creature prevents the release of its soul, such as if the creature fell to a vampire, the soul is either destroyed or formed into some kind of conduit for negative energy (which keeps the body "alive" but keeps the soul in a deathly state). It has been argued that selling your soul, depending on the outsider buying it, removes it from your body and makes you undead (or gives you undead traits). I don't pretend to be an expert on soul mechanics, which are very ill defined in 3E. I doubt 4E will be definitive about the subject. Questions 17 and 18: If a dead person is specifically classified as a soul that exists for a god, with no petitioner form, I doubt any summoning spell is going to force the god to release it. However, a miracle cast by a cleric of that god might be enough to give that soul a new body. If a god chooses to release a captive soul, the god will likely give the soul a body that is condusive to a specific purpose. A good example is Spawn - Satan releases the protagonist's soul but its body now runs specifically on the soul's diminishing energy, though it can do amazing things and Spawn is still stuck being a minion to Satan, though he can rebel. I would rule, as a DM, that a cleric of a specific god could target souls and petitioners held by that god with spells like commune and summon planar ally. If I know a dead guy who worshipped my god, and he was a good buddy of mine, you can bet that I'd commune with him once in a while. If he was a paladin, I'd probably use summon planar ally to see if he'll help me in battle once in a while, too, though I can't be too sure that his current form will be very helpful in combat, especially if petitioners of our god are recreated into useless wisps of soul energy that can talk. Now, a paladin petitioner in service of Odin or Thor... would be a kick-butt warrior in shiny armor with outsiderness and maybe incorporealness. Tell me your viking paladin can't appreciate incorporeality. Swords pass harmlessly through you, hello!
Kursk 04-25-08, 02:57 PM	And when they die what happens with their essence? A "petitioner" is the soul (essence) of a person who has died and gone to the "afterlife". Now, if it could be killed there would be % chance of Raise Dead, Res or True Res to fail. Right?
ripvanwormer 04-25-08, 05:43 PM	A petitioner is an outsider. As such, it can die like any outsider, unless the monster descriptions specifically says it can't. Like all outsiders, it can't be raised with a normal Raise Dead spell, but it can be raised with Raise Outsider or True Resurrection. If your friend dies, and her petitioner is killed, it's logical that Raise Dead would no longer work on her. There isn't a flat percentage chance of this happening, though; generally, you assume it won't happen unless it occurs as part of the game's plot. According to the Planescape stuff, dead petitioners merge with their planes or the realms of their gods, unless they die off-plane, in which case they simply dissolve, leaving nothing behind. They'd still be retrievable with Raise Outsider or True Resurrection, however.
Kursk 04-25-08, 05:46 PM	A If your friend dies, and her petitioner is killed, it's logical that Raise Dead would no longer work on her. There isn't a flat percentage chance of this happening, though; generally, you assume it won't happen unless it occurs as part of the game's plot. So petitioners (unless they are PCs) can be killed. Makes for a good house rule.
Mindolin 04-25-08, 06:04 PM	And as to the remark of only Humanoids having souls, the only creatures without souls are the Outsiders, because they don't have a dual nature.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-26-08, 12:45 AM	And as to the remark of only Humanoids having souls, the only creatures without souls are the Outsiders, because they don't have a dual nature. And undead and constructs.
zeratulcraft 04-26-08, 12:53 AM	And undead and constructs. Most constructs, or atleast the golem chain, have an outsider elemental bound to them to give them life.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-26-08, 01:41 AM	And as to the remark of only Humanoids having souls, the only creatures without souls are the Outsiders, because they don't have a dual nature. And undead and constructs. To clarify a bit perhaps: I would posit that all intelligent mortal creatures, not just humanoids, possess souls. Secondly, it's a tad misleading to say Outsiders don't have souls. They -are- souls, just taken physical form without body/soul duality. And most intelligent undead have or are souls. Ghosts, specters, etc are essentially just souls infused with or partially composed of negative energy, while creatures like liches have their souls anchored to phylacteries via negative energy and magic, and vampires have souls just as a mortal creature does (albeit wrapped up in its negative energy infused form).
gravenhurst 04-27-08, 10:39 PM	A petitioner is an outsider. As such, it can die like any outsider, unless the monster descriptions specifically says it can't. Like all outsiders, it can't be raised with a normal Raise Dead spell, but it can be raised with Raise Outsider or True Resurrection. If your friend dies, and her petitioner is killed, it's logical that Raise Dead would no longer work on her. There isn't a flat percentage chance of this happening, though; generally, you assume it won't happen unless it occurs as part of the game's plot. According to the Planescape stuff, dead petitioners merge with their planes or the realms of their gods, unless they die off-plane, in which case they simply dissolve, leaving nothing behind. They'd still be retrievable with Raise Outsider or True Resurrection, however. Hmm, interesting. I always forget about petitioners becoming outsiders when they die. That, alone, has cleared up a lot for me (needing miracle or wish to bring them back) in adjudicating whom should come back from the dead to terrorize the PC's again, or for a PC to come back in the future - hey, sometimes a deity wants a PC for themselves!
gravenhurst 04-27-08, 10:48 PM	To clarify a bit perhaps: I would posit that all intelligent mortal creatures, not just humanoids, possess souls. Secondly, it's a tad misleading to say Outsiders don't have souls. They -are- souls, just taken physical form without body/soul duality. And most intelligent undead have or are souls. Ghosts, specters, etc are essentially just souls infused with or partially composed of negative energy, while creatures like liches have their souls anchored to phylacteries via negative energy and magic, and vampires have souls just as a mortal creature does (albeit wrapped up in its negative energy infused form). Yes! It is easy to forget that angels/celestials were once petitioners, who were granted or promoted into a new form! Neat!
Asra 04-28-08, 11:51 PM	Yes! It is easy to forget that angels/celestials were once petitioners, who were granted or promoted into a new form! Neat! Well the same could be said for Demons and Devils, though I think quite a large portion of those simply arise out of the plane itself. Not sure if theres ever been a percentage of how many arise out of the planes versus how many are actually petitioners who are eventually promoted. I'd think in the more dangerous places like the Abyss, more of the larva would wind up eaten, though I think in Hordes of the Abyss it has an entire lair where the manes are herded and promoted to different forms or tanar'ri(Mostly manes). Also, almost invariably, petitioners lose almost all of their memories of their past lives except under special circumstances. So whether or not you can consider them actually the same people depends on how you view amnesiac petitioners. Most never remember their past lives, and quite a few end up merging with the plane as time goes by(presumably from boredom if not on a plane like Ysgard or Acheron ;) ).
Shemeska the Marauder 04-29-08, 12:22 AM	Well the same could be said for Demons and Devils, though I think quite a large portion of those simply arise out of the plane itself. It varies by type. All archons for instance arise from petitioners, and by extension all asuras as well since they're archons fallen to chaos. It's not known precisely how guardinals or eladrin are related to petitioners. For the major three fiend races, tanar'ri arise from their plane, petitioners, and breeding; baatezu arise almost exclusively from petitioners (possibly since they're not originally native to their "native" plane); and yugoloths have no link to petitioners at all (demodands too by extension).
Asra 04-29-08, 12:36 AM	It varies by type. All archons for instance arise from petitioners, and by extension all asuras as well since they're archons fallen to chaos. It's not known precisely how guardinals or eladrin are related to petitioners. For the major three fiend races, tanar'ri arise from their plane, petitioners, and breeding; baatezu arise almost exclusively from petitioners (possibly since they're not originally native to their "native" plane); and yugoloths have no link to petitioners at all (demodands too by extension). Ah, I wasn't entirely aware of that distinction with the baatezu, but after thinking about the baatorians and some flavor text in Tyrants of the Nine Hells, it fits pretty well. Erinyes are never made out of petitioners, correct? I think I read somewhere that they can reproduce conventionally.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-29-08, 12:42 AM	Ah, I wasn't entirely aware of that distinction with the baatezu, but after thinking about the baatorians and some flavor text in Tyrants of the Nine Hells, it fits pretty well. Erinyes are never made out of petitioners, correct? I think I read somewhere that they can reproduce conventionally. Prior to FC:II, they were just another rung along the baatezu chain of promotion/advancement. However FC:II retconned it so that they remained a bit closer to their origins as a discrete fallen LN race and retained the ability to breed true (as much as an exclusively one-gendered race copulating with other devils to produce only more of itself is breeding true). I don't mind the retcon actually, since it fits in (perhaps unwittingly) with some other history of Mechanus (specifically a dead "angelic" race known as the aphanacts). Rip sold me on that particular linkage. He's good like that.
gravenhurst 07-13-08, 11:57 AM	Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Questions 1 and 2: ...Question 3: ...Question 4: ...Question 5: ...Question 6: ... Question 7: ...Questions 8, 9 and 10: ...Questions 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16: Questions 17 and 18: .... 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12! Twwweellllve!!! And, on and on. :D Thanks so much for your feedback. I hadn't realized my multiple questions within a question, had more questions!!! But I have been know to wander with long winded explanations on the know and when and what and how D&D can work for me and you. You have helped sort out a lot I already know. It is easier sometimes for someone else to squeeze several books onto a page for me to help sort it all out.
gravenhurst 07-13-08, 12:23 PM	It varies by type. All archons for instance arise from petitioners, and by extension all asuras as well since they're archons fallen to chaos. It's not known precisely how guardinals or eladrin are related to petitioners. For the major three fiend races, tanar'ri arise from their plane, petitioners, and breeding; baatezu arise almost exclusively from petitioners (possibly since they're not originally native to their "native" plane); and yugoloths have no link to petitioners at all (demodands too by extension). What other celestials come from a plane of existence rather from a deity? This would help differentiating between the angels from one GOD (or from good deities) story line to celestials from the upper planes, either from a plane or an independent race. And Eryines are fallen angels corrupted in their deeds from punishing mortals for the gods. In D&D terms, they are described as "a discreet fallen race," so as to distance their relation to real world mythology. So I would question the D&D reference that they can breed with devils or with each other (why couldn't there be a male Eryines) instead of being androgynous, breeding on their own as angels can!
gravenhurst 07-13-08, 02:51 PM	Question 7: "...Arch Devils, Demon Lords and gods are referred to as "powers." This classification may help you to understand that these singular beings are capable of many things involving their plane of residence, whether they're gods or not...Now think of the infernal planes as a power source. The archdevils and demon lords act as magic brokers, channeling the power of their realms to their cultists. In 3E, these power brokers can only give so much power depending on their own power - Asmodeus might be the big dog in Hell but he can't give legions of epic clerics their arrays of colourful landscape-changing lasers and waves of ghostly calvaries, but Pelor, on the other hand, can, with a little help in the form of the cleric's own inner power (in the form of backlash or experience burn)." I consider devils as petitioners cast out from the Upper Heavens who use the plane of Hell as a source to manipulate power from because the deities created Hell itself! Devils can not pray because it is against their nature to do so, and, because they are shut out from being heard. Thus, devils can die! For good! Because they do not have access to raising their own kind. Their mystical connection to divinity is corrupted and thus can be used for rituals and pacts to corrupt souls, to aid in their existence. So devils can not grant divine spells but have a supernatural way of innately casting spells, just like a sorcerer can, by their connection to Hell. So, cultists are "granted" temporary spells on loan, so to speak. Questions 8, 9 and 10: I doubt that the lords of Hell and the Abyss or whatever the new evil planes are would willingly bow to evil deities just to give their cultists spells, but it could be possible, especially if there's some exchange of souls going on. If a deity is giving souls to a fiend, then the deity is surely getting something important in the bargain. Perhaps direct service from the fiend is enough to warrant handing over some petitioners or captured souls. If I were Nerull, I'd happily hand over a few thousand helpless cultists to get Asmodeus to swear allegiance. I offered this as a query into the contradiction of this possibility. If an evil deity gave souls to a devil lord what could the devil do for him when he is a deity? It doesn't make any sense for the two powers to be aligned except to cause more mayhem with mortals and to gain more worshippers for the deity. So what would the devil get out of it, possibly the odd souls in return for performing a recruitment service, more than likely. If anything, a devil could be a Proxy for a deity, capable of granting spells to a mortal because of direct channelling from the deity in question. And that is it. As long as the devil was creating cults to himself by offering powers for their souls maybe in the form of arcane pact magic and rituals, the cultists believe that the devil is granting them divine spells, but in actuality, the deity is directly channelling divine spells to the cultist. And thus the deity gains power from the cultists worshipping him. Questions 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16: "...A petitioner not in service to a god but taking a definite and sentient form would probably be an incorporeal outsider, though a petitioner that ends up in the fiendish realms takes the form of a larva, which, I guess, is something like a glowing outsider maggot. A petitioner that can't get to the outer realms becomes a ghost. If the death of a creature prevents the release of its soul, such as if the creature fell to a vampire, the soul is either destroyed or formed into some kind of conduit for negative energy (which keeps the body "alive" but keeps the soul in a deathly state). It has been argued that selling your soul, depending on the outsider buying it, removes it from your body and makes you undead (or gives you undead traits)..." Questions 17 and 18: If a dead person is specifically classified as a soul that exists for a god, with no petitioner form, I doubt any summoning spell is going to force the god to release it. However, a miracle cast by a cleric of that god might be enough to give that soul a new body. If a god chooses to release a captive soul, the god will likely give the soul a body that is conducive to a specific purpose...Now, a paladin petitioner in service of Odin or Thor... would be a kick-butt warrior in shiny armour with outsiderness and maybe incorporealness. Tell me your viking paladin can't appreciate incorporeality. Swords pass harmlessly through you, hello! Undead is better understood now too, because I have always pondered the existence of undead with no real negative source to fuel them or for them to tap into, like an evil temple. I guess with vampires, the blood sucking/letting helps spread the negative disease, and thus a tapped negative source! And the vampires source is from whatever fell "power" spawned their existence. Kill the source and no more vampires (i.e. destroy the altar or head cleric and the channelled negative energy is disrupted or cut off from breeding new un-life)!;) There has always been a logical fantasy reason for evil to have been spawned on their own, like the revenant; revenge is a strong emotion and thus capable of fuelling a soul to carry on as an undead to finish whatever it needs to finish before carrying on to the afterlife; that makes sense to me. But zombies and skeletons just wandering about, left alone in an abandoned dungeon? Forget about it. Then again, most dungeon locations are fuelled around crypts and altars, etc., which are, or have been, channelling negative energy. It depends on the source of power that is channelling the negative energy. Ghosts too, as you pointed out, are trapped souls, but why aren't they considered an outsider? Or at least be considered a Native subtype to whatever plane the are trapped on? I see Outsiders have to breathe, but do not need to eat, or sleep but the Native subtype does to all three? Doesn't make sense:confused: And the Incorporeal subtype is the same thing. How can you have no physical body and not need to breathe, eat, sleep, and still not be considered an outsider? or the Native subtype at least! A ghost is connected to the plane that has held their soul for whatever reason from going to the light at the end of the tunnel. How is the ghost any different from a soul becoming a petitioner? A ghost is much more powerful than a standard petitioner created by a god! So, why does a petitioner need to breathe, if the are just a molded soul much like the ghost, who is trapped or held back from carrying on to the afterlife to become a petitioner (or larva, lemure, etc)?