Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg3 03-24-08, 11:36 AM	What is Wizard's policy on statting gods of real religions? I find it hard to believe this isn't allowed, given the real religions used in DDG, most notably Norse gods who have an organized following in Asartu and the RL gods mentioned in FC I ( which I enjoyed mind you but it does violate their own rules). As this is rule is relevant to this board, it would be good to clarify it and sticky it. thanks, Sciborg 3.0
Kain_Darkwind 03-24-08, 02:35 PM	What is Wizard's policy on statting gods of real religions? I find it hard to believe this isn't allowed, given the real religions used in DDG, most notably Norse gods who have an organized following in Asartu and the RL gods mentioned in FC I ( which I enjoyed mind you but it does violate their own rules). As this is rule is relevant to this board, it would be good to clarify it and sticky it. thanks, Sciborg 3.0 To answer your earlier question, no Zeus did not have a CR in DDg. In theory you could look at his hp, saves, AC, etc and come up with an estimated CR, but gods specifically lacked CR in DDg. I tend to agree that there is a certain level of hypocrisy in 'RL gods', when many of the 'mythological' gods are still worshipped by a quieter and less excitable minority than those of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Just because 80% of America doesn't worship Thor doesn't mean he isn't a real deity to living people.
sciborg3 03-24-08, 02:44 PM	Thanks Kain. Again, I have no problem with anyone who doesn't want to see their gods statted - that's a valid viewpoint of a believer in any faith, from someone not wanting Kali to be the Abyss to a Satanist who takes exception to Lucifer being named in the BoVD. I personally don't mind using RL gods in forms of artistic expression (and I consider even video games to be art) and have even defended that policy on these boards against Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus over the years - though I still respect their willingness to defend their faiths. I just think that whatever the policy is, it needs to be applied to all RL faiths (save perhaps those who've taken to worshipping Gaiman's Endless as symbols or other such gods that starting out as definitive published fiction) and at least clarified for us. Just look at the recent Satan stat-up that was locked (possibly temporarily) while numerous threads on other faiths remain open (including all the ones I put in the FAQ).
Flame_Drake 03-24-08, 04:28 PM	I believe that the policy is no ''Active Religions'', which is again vague, because both the Greek and Norse pantheons have active and organized followings. Its more a ban on any of the widespread modern religions (Christianity, Islam, Hindu etc) they inevitable led to flame wars even if the majority of the poster are being calm and civilized. Thus the WotC just flat out banned those discussions on the boards. I've got a more product oriented argument also, but I need to run, will post it later. Drake
Shemeska the Marauder 03-25-08, 12:22 AM	Active (non-reconstructionist) religions within the demographic that buys a majority of D&D books. So ancient Greek/Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian deities are fair game since they stopped being active religions thousands of years ago, with the exception of some small neo-pagan revivals. The Hindu gods are certainly part of a major and active religion, but since the D&D buying public doesn't have many Hindus it's usually safe to say that statting Shiva won't upset (enough) people to be a worry to WotC, whereas putting stats to Christ, Moses, Iblis, and whomever else within one of the big 3 religions would upset enough people to cause problems.
turalisj 03-25-08, 01:03 AM	Active (non-reconstructionist) religions within the demographic that buys a majority of D&D books. So ancient Greek/Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian deities are fair game since they stopped being active religions hundreds of years ago, with the exception of some small neo-pagan revivals. The Hindu gods are certainly part of a major and active religion, but since the D&D buying public doesn't have many Hindus it's usually safe to say that statting Shiva won't upset (enough) people to be a worry to WotC, whereas putting stats to Christ, Moses, Iblis, and whomever else within one of the big 3 religions would upset enough people to cause problems. Corrected. Christianity didn't reach the Norse lands until ATLEAST 200CE, if not later. I'd have to do some research on that one.
sciborg3 03-25-08, 02:23 AM	Active (non-reconstructionist) religions within the demographic that buys a majority of D&D books. Aren't Christianity and Islam reconstructions of Judaism from a purely secular historical perspective? And if religion is about sacred truth, then the popularity or even prolonged absence of a faith doesn't matter. If statting a god trivializes a faith on principle, then all RL gods should be disallowed from discussion. Note that Buddhists and Hindus HAVE complained on these boards but none of the topics discussing their faiths were locked - almost certainly because they didn't voice formal complaints but WizO's have taken it on themselves to give certain faiths special preference and locked discussions of them. I believe this to detrimental to creative freedom and all deities should be fair game. Still, I suppose from an economic stand point it's reasonable and even expected to cherry pick which faiths deserve respect. I just think on these boards we should be free to discuss the incorporation of any religion we want. But if a representative of Wizards will come forth and explain the principle (even if its economic principle) behind the rules & forbidden topics, I'd be satisfied.
Flame_Drake 03-25-08, 02:33 AM	Shemmy's got it right on the money. When Hecatomb was still alive and kicking, a number of us had the benefits of direct access to the lead designers of the game via the forums. For those of you unfamiliar with the game, the premise was that you were trying to destroy the world and one card type specifically represented the effects of summoning a god onto the planet to wreck havoc. So who did we see? Set, Loki, Hades, Moloch, Ares, Tezcatlipoca. Oh and Cthulhu. But we were all already voting for big C, so he didn't mind. Anyhow, we asked at one point what the guideline were for which gods could be made into cards for the game since we were curious and knew that WotC wouldn't to offend anyone. What we got back was basically what Shem said. All widespread religions were of the list, including Hindu and Shinto, but dead & neopagan religions were considered fair game, since they were either dead, or had such small followings, that the chances of any major fallout was minimal. Now, hecatomb had an older audience, so I know that they got to bend the rules a little when it came to WotC policy, but in this case I figure that it must be the same deal for DnD. Drake
sciborg3 03-25-08, 02:36 AM	I wonder why White Wolf gets away with it. (see Scion, Vampire, Mage...heck everything they put out...) I suppose D&D is too household a name to risk fallout, even on these boards. Not that i expect a corporation of all entities to defend freedom of expression.
turalisj 03-25-08, 02:38 AM	Aren't Christianity and Islam reconstructions of Judaism from a purely secular historical perspective? And if religion is about sacred truth, then the popularity or even absence of a faith doesn't matter. If statting a god trivializes a faith on principle, then all RL gods should be disallowed from discussion. Note that Buddhists and Hindus HAVE complained on these boards but none of the topics discussing their faiths were locked - almost certainly because they didn't voice formal complaints but WizO's have taken it on themselves to give certain faiths special preference and locked discussions of them. Well, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all monotheistic and fairly strict (to a point) religeons that share strikingly similar teachings coming from one primary source, a book. Sadly, I know little about Judaism and even less about Islam except that there's a part in the Qur'an to 'respect the people of the book' (meaning Christians and Jews) or something along those lines. From what I know about Hinduism, they believe in one god but that the one god has many different forms and from what I know about Buddhism, they worship a being who ascended into the next realm by letting go of his worldly desires. Of course, I'm not a theology professor nor do I claim to be, this is just based on what I know. Some, most likely all, of it may be flawed.
Flame_Drake 03-25-08, 02:55 AM	Aren't Christianity and Islam reconstructions of Judaism from a purely secular historical perspective? And if religion is about sacred truth, then the popularity or even absence of a faith doesn't matter. If statting a god trivializes a faith on principle, then all RL gods should be disallowed from discussion. For the boards at least, I'm not sure if trivialization is the issue as much as the flame wars that tend to result from people mentioning aspects of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in particular. People have strong feelings on the issue going both ways As for books, I don't think I've ever actually seen stats for Hindu Gods from WotC. I personally think that WotC is still being careful after the backlash from the word 'demon' and 'devil' in DnD. Saying ''these are the stats for ______'' could result in even more backlash, not because of trivialization of faith, but because people would most likely disagree on some aspect of the interpretation. As far as I can tell, WotC simply tries to avoid that situation from coming up. Note that Buddhists and Hindus HAVE complained on these boards but none of the topics discussing their faiths were locked - almost certainly because they didn't voice formal complaints but WizO's have taken it on themselves to give certain faiths special preference and locked discussions of them. They should have been locked by CoC, since all RL religions are supposed to be banned. Yes, I know its hairy, but I'm not the one who makes the rules... I believe this to detrimental to creative freedom and all deities should be fair game. Still, I suppose from an economic stand point it's reasonable and even expected to cherry pick which faiths deserve respect. I just think on these boards we should be free to discuss the incorporation of any religion we want. But if a representative of Wizards will come forth and explain the principle (even if its economic principle) behind the rules & forbidden topics, I'd be satisfied. I've sen this in the Boards Business area a few times. Basically, it boils down to any discussion on religion eventually boils down to a Flame War, regardless of the intents of the OPs and participants. I'll see if I can't find a link. I fully agree that these boards would be better for it if we could discuss religion, as it is a deep and interesting topic, even for laymen. Alas, there are always small minorities of people like Jack-Who-Shall-No-Be-Named that ruin the fun for everyone else. Until such time as we can manage a rational calm discussion of religion, we must go without it. Drake
sciborg3 03-25-08, 04:02 AM	Well, there have been threads that remained 99% civil but yes, I see your point. RPG discussions of religions worshipping Yaweh are 99% likely to dissolve into flamewars. Ah well, there's always other boards and other rpgs for that matter for those subjects...
setekh 03-25-08, 04:26 AM	Well, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all monotheistic and fairly strict (to a point) religeons that share strikingly similar teachings coming from one primary source, a book. Sadly, I know little about Judaism and even less about Islam except that there's a part in the Qur'an to 'respect the people of the book' (meaning Christians and Jews) or something along those lines. They all worship different aspects of G-d as I recall. The Son is Christianity, and the Father and Holy Ghost are between Islam and Judaism, at a guess, I think Judaism is the Father.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-25-08, 07:48 PM	They all worship different aspects of G-d as I recall. The Son is Christianity, and the Father and Holy Ghost are between Islam and Judaism, at a guess, I think Judaism is the Father. I should point out that the concept of the Trinity is unique to Christianity. The conception of the almighty differs in some interesting ways between the Big 3, though I'm not well versed enough to really go into detail. Christianity grew out of Judiasm, and centuries later Islam (at least in the scholarly take on its origins) was a syncretic blending of pre-Islamic arab religions, judaism, and some unique strands of non-orthodox Xtianity which were still extant in the Arabian penninsula (for instance the 5th/6th century Arabic Infancy Gospel [itself based on the earlier apocrypha the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and Protevangelium of James] has portions incorporated into the Koran well after the gospel itself was no longer accepted within the Xtian canon for various reasons). Possibly some zoarastrianism and sabaism as well, but again I'm not a theologian or historian.
Flame_Drake 03-25-08, 09:11 PM	I wonder why White Wolf gets away with it. (see Scion, Vampire, Mage...heck everything they put out...) I suppose D&D is too household a name to risk fallout, even on these boards. Not that i expect a corporation of all entities to defend freedom of expression. D&D is much more well known, thus it could stand to lose more, and the fallout could continue to all WotC, and even all of Hasbro. Drake
sciborg3 03-28-08, 08:56 AM	Any WizO's or Gamer Zero around? Anyone? Bueler?
Kain_Darkwind 03-28-08, 11:45 AM	Any WizO's or Gamer Zero around? Anyone? Bueler? Someone could report your post for violating the CoC....afterall, it is religious in nature. :)
MacrossSD 03-28-08, 12:32 PM	Just because 80% of America doesn't worship Thor doesn't mean he isn't a real deity to living people. No, but then again events like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy) don't usually occur when someone stats up Thor. Or this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles#Backlash_and_controversy).
turalisj 03-28-08, 01:38 PM	No, but then again events like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy) don't usually occur when someone stats up Thor. Or this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles#Backlash_and_controversy). Funny how they get ****** when there is a cartoon made of their religeon, but we in America have to bend over and take it when there is a website calling everything in America a blasphemy.....:rolleyes: I'm sorry, got a bit sidetracked there. alot of WotC's board policies are contradictory. For instance, there are suopposed to be 'no rp threads in a board zone not designated as such' yet one pops up about once a month and the Wizos ignore them. Personally, I'm fine with that as they aren't harming anyone and providing some laughs.
MacrossSD 03-28-08, 01:49 PM	Funny how they get ****** when there is a cartoon made of their religeon, but we in America have to bend over and take it when there is a website calling everything in America a blasphemy.....:rolleyes: QFT. I don't like it either. Hypocrites annoy the hell out of me.
turalisj 03-28-08, 02:18 PM	Glad to know I'm not the only one.
MacrossSD 03-28-08, 02:33 PM	Back on topic, I noticed that Wizo_Keldar locked a thread that had statted up a certain powerful diabolical mythological personality (you may remember him from his greatest hits -- The Book of Job, the Battle of Armageddon in Revelations, the collected works of Anton La Vey, way too many Marilyn Manson albums to count) with little explanation other than "we got complaints." In looking at the post (I didn't go over it with a fine-toothed comb) it looked like He Who Shall Not Be Named was treated in a pretty neutral manner, not in a "Yay! You Go, HWSNBN!" fashion. Now Dragon Magazine itself (way back in issue 30-something [don't have the actual issue number with me, but the article was "The Politics of Hell"]) statted up Ol' Scratch themselves for AD&D. Why is it that here on the boards, a stat of you-know-who is banned when the magazine in its halcyon days of TSR could get away with it? (Oh, and Flame Drake, is that the 3rd Eridani Light Cavalry on your avatar? :) )
turalisj 03-28-08, 02:36 PM	Because that was TSR, not WotC aka players-are-crap?
awaken_D_M_golem 03-28-08, 04:16 PM	sciborg3 - "satan" is pronouced "shah - tann", and he's a Hockey player from one of the Baltic states. ;) If RL religions have not-practiced-anymore heresies ... their definition, I'd say that's fair game. The Hyksos, who conquered Egypt in 2nd millenium bce, were somewhat monotheist, or better described as Heno-theist. One god, but the others exist. The very very downstream exodus 500+ years later and theology from mid 1st mill bce (or 1000+ years after that), gets to the "big 3" idea of One god, and the others aren't real. Supposedly, the middle Hyksos had the ancient Free-masons in their midst. Their capital was Avarice (literally both meanings). They were law bound - though who knows what. They were in contact with the later to be proto-Samaritans, the ones that used ONLY a lesser version of biblebook#5. DvR of 8 at the "historic" mythic time. Domains : Law, Artifice, Fortune (if good), Greed (if evil) , Secrets. Plays up contemporary prejudices - with no application to any real people(s). C'mon - there's Efreet from one book, Incarnation from another.
turalisj 03-28-08, 05:16 PM	Funny, I'm pretty sure the freemasons were started in Scotland. Now, if you want to go into conspiracy.... Well, thats an arguement for another thread.
Flame_Drake 03-28-08, 09:16 PM	Back on topic, I noticed that Wizo_Keldar locked a thread that had statted up a certain powerful diabolical mythological personality (you may remember him from his greatest hits -- The Book of Job, the Battle of Armageddon in Revelations, the collected works of Anton La Vey, way too many Marilyn Manson albums to count) with little explanation other than "we got complaints." In looking at the post (I didn't go over it with a fine-toothed comb) it looked like He Who Shall Not Be Named was treated in a pretty neutral manner, not in a "Yay! You Go, HWSNBN!" fashion. Now Dragon Magazine itself (way back in issue 30-something [don't have the actual issue number with me, but the article was "The Politics of Hell"]) statted up Ol' Scratch themselves for AD&D. Why is it that here on the boards, a stat of you-know-who is banned when the magazine in its halcyon days of TSR could get away with it? I was one of the people who reported it, and it may only have been me since it wasn't locked much later. I personally have no issue with it, but I remembered a very similar thread on the Mature boards that became very very messy when someone decided to post stats for the J-man and people started taking offense. I specifically said that I was concerned about a flame war starting when I reported it. Personally, I would love to be able discuss religion on these boards as it is a very interesting subject and I have studied it a bit. I just felt that stating said divine beings was a giant powder keg. (Oh, and Flame Drake, is that the 3rd Eridani Light Cavalry on your avatar? :) ) I have no idea, I just like it, I think it fits me, and almost no one else uses it on the boards I frequent. sciborg3 - "satan" is pronouced "shah - tann", and he's a Hockey player from one of the Baltic states. Yes and I keep hoping that one day he will get in a fight with that player named Jesus (Hay-sus) so that we get the most awesome hockey transcripts. Drake
The Ubbergeek 03-29-08, 02:27 PM	Because that was TSR, not WotC aka players-are-crap? It's a bit PC, but considering the rise of the christian right....
sciborg3 03-29-08, 03:09 PM	Someone could report your post for violating the CoC....afterall, it is religious in nature. Heh, took me awhile to get this...
awaken_D_M_golem 03-29-08, 03:58 PM	Funny, I'm pretty sure the freemasons were started in Scotland. http://www.google.com/search?q=freemasons+egypt&safe=vss&sa=Google+Search Some of the symbols of freemasonry, pre-date the Hyksos, so we're talking about 3800+ years ago. Gnostics: Semi-Persian and nothing wrong with that, can't tell the difference between One god and 72 gods (literally); then 1900 years ago, or now with the Jesus Seminar researchers. Earth is good, Air (spirit) is better, Water (blood) is Evul, Sun/Light is rarest and best; and this transcends Alignment. Undead aren't evil, rather it depends on the composition: Latern Archon = GOOD!, Ghost = good-ish, Skeleton = neutral, Zombie = icky blood Evul. Law doesn't really matter, Chaos doesn't really matter. There is this savior, there is that saviour, there's another savior; I'd call them proxies.
Kain_Darkwind 03-29-08, 04:19 PM	Heh, took me awhile to get this... Be even funnier if you do it.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-29-08, 04:36 PM	http://www.google.com/search?q=freemasons+egypt&safe=vss&sa=Google+Search Some of the symbols of freemasonry, pre-date the Hyksos, so we're talking about 3800+ years ago. Though taking up the use of older symbols doesn't make you as old as those symbols. Freemasonry is solidly grounded in middleage Europe, despite alegorical myths and symbols they invoke as part of their traditions.
Flame_Drake 03-29-08, 08:14 PM	Though taking up the use of older symbols doesn't make you as old as those symbols. Freemasonry is solidly grounded in middleage Europe, despite alegorical myths and symbols they invoke as part of their traditions. For a similar, and equally infamous, example, the swastika is currently a symbol of white supremacists and other such loonies, yet it as a very long and storied history as a good luck symbol in eastern Asia. Does that mean that the Nazis got their start in Asia over a thousand years ago? No. It means that Hitler thought that the Swastika looked cool. Drake
sciborg3 03-29-08, 08:42 PM	I thought the swastika was used in worship of Thor?
Flame_Drake 03-29-08, 09:04 PM	I thought the swastika was used in worship of Thor? No, its defiantly East Asian, although I wouldn't put a similar norse rune existing out of the question, although if it does, I've never seen it. Drake
sciborg3 03-30-08, 12:14 PM	I swear I've seen pottery of ancient Norse with a swastika, but it was a fleeting glance.
Kain_Darkwind 03-30-08, 12:40 PM	I swear I've seen pottery of ancient Norse with a swastika, but it was a fleeting glance. Thieving Vikings probably stole it from someone in East Asia. Or bought it from an Australian who did.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-30-08, 02:21 PM	Freemasonry freemasonry started as you say. Freemasonry: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614TYYZEZHL._AA240_.jpg The Taliban still use swatikas, so that's alittle too RL religion for me.
sciborg3 03-30-08, 02:50 PM	Well I've seen swastikas in East Asia and India when I traveled through those countries, so they are used by lots of groups. I've heard the Nazis had theirs in a counter clockwise rotation, inverting the symbol of life into a symbol of death, but that might an interpretation that has little reality in ancient history. I've head Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the US - I wonder if RPGs will have to find another culture to profit off of in the next decade. Perhaps something involing Thetans?
turalisj 03-30-08, 03:50 PM	Freemasonry freemasonry started as you say. Freemasonry: The Taliban still use swatikas, so that's alittle too RL religion for me. -_-' You DO realise how easy it is to make up crap about basicly anything these days and print it, right? Edit: Googled Manly P. Hallis. Turns out he's a huge conspiracy author. Pointing to one of his books as a source of info is like pointing to a church for evidence of God.
MacrossSD 03-31-08, 12:22 AM	No, its defiantly East Asian, although I wouldn't put a similar norse rune existing out of the question, although if it does, I've never seen it. Drake The Swastika (Suvastika, Fylfot, manji, etc.) Is a common symbol to many cultures, and has been independently attested in native American art, ancient Greek art, Celtic art, Buddhist iconography and Basque art (the laburu [a swastika-like symbol made up of four comma-like devices--exactly like the (no foolin'!) logo for Fantastic Sam's] is a national symbol for the Basque people) among others.
turalisj 03-31-08, 09:18 PM	:eek: They must all be secret nazis! Kill them all!!!
awaken_D_M_golem 04-01-08, 05:44 PM	You DO realise how easy it is to make up crap about basicly anything these days and print it, right? I googled what I said I googled, and presented the first pretty picture. No (conspiratorial) attempt to New World Order anyone, not that you'd believe me now, now would you ... :plotting: Edit: Googled Manly P. Hallis. Turns out he's a huge conspiracy author. Pointing to one of his books as a source of info is like pointing to a church for evidence of God. The best lies are 99.9% true, or true-enough that ... <blah blah blah> ... enough preachyness. Perhaps more to your liking would be almost the same stuff from: infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/origin_free-masonry.html This pre-dates any new world order nonsense ... linky !! (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/origin_free-masonry.html) Other RL, Bon or Bonpo from Tibet, and some of pre-islam/buddhism Afghanistan. Dorjes get into psionics, etc.
Rania 04-02-08, 03:42 PM	No, but then again events like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy" ]this [/URL]don't usually occur when someone stats up Thor. Or [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles#Backlash_and_controversy). I dunno.... I got pretty upset when I read Deities and Demigods and saw how they mangled the Norse pantheon.... They're some of my favourite stories.
MacrossSD 04-06-08, 12:27 AM	I dunno.... I got pretty upset when I read Deities and Demigods and saw how they mangled the Norse pantheon.... They're some of my favourite stories. But on the other hand, a thousand Norwegians aren't likely to put on chain hauberks, grab the old Danish broadaxes, hop in their longships and go and burn down the TSR building in Lake Geneva or the WotC building in Redmond over a slight to the Aesir pantheon. (though a good, old-fashioned Viking Strandhogg would be a thing to see... ;) ) There's a minor, almost indistinguishable difference between getting "pretty upset" and being vocal about something, and going and burning down an embassy building to show one's displeasure, eh? :P
turalisj 04-06-08, 01:24 AM	You mean like what any good (insert follower of a major religeon) would do? If WotC printed anything having to do with (insert major religeon), I'm sure there would be several murders of the WotC Dnd staff. :rolleyes:
MacrossSD 04-06-08, 02:15 AM	You mean like what any good (insert follower of a major religeon) would do? If WotC printed anything having to do with (insert major religeon), I'm sure there would be several murders of the WotC Dnd staff. :rolleyes: Not necessarily -- the worst-case scenario is with certain elements of (insert religion) getting violent when (insert religious figure) is maligned, even inadvertently. However, my point was merely that not ALL religious followers are going to take such drastic umbrage as the Muslims in the wake of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. Hence, Thor's, Loki's, Odin's, Baldur's, et alia, stats as deities. If they really wanted to, Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, and Amaterasu-O-Mikami could probably all be sttted with little problem (other than the usual problem of the message being sent that "If we can stat it, we can kill it.") But even given that, WotC probably doesn't want to take the chance that a violent minority of a major modern-day religion might take offense in, quite frankly, a grossly out-of-proportion manner. Particularly if that out-of-proportion response is worldwide and sustained, as the cartoon protests were. The Jylands-Posten cartoonists were threatened, and are still under police protection, but others were killed in the protests, and Danish government property in the Middle East was destroyed. (and remember...the original point of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons was that an author of a serious, respectful children's biography of Muhammad was unable to find illustrators willing to do illustrations for the book -- at least one of them citing explicitly the murder of Theo van Gogh as a reason that they would not violate the Muslim aniconist injunction against depictions of the Prophet Muhammad)
sciborg3 04-06-08, 02:33 AM	I am somewhat amused that a thread about the CoC managed to violate the CoC with little to no effort on my part. Though I must say lumping the millions of followers of a religion to the actions of a violent minority is not what I had in mind when I made this thread...
MacrossSD 04-06-08, 02:41 AM	I am somewhat amused that a thread about the CoC managed to violate the CoC with little to no effort on my part. Though I must say lumping the millions of followers of a religion to the actions of a violent minority is not what I had in mind when I made this thread... In my hamhanded way, I was trying to separate the millions from the minority, yet give a reason why WotC might not want deities statted. Perhaps I should quit while I'm ahead(?) :thinks: :doh: ... I hear Tahiti's nice this time of year... :rofl:
sciborg3 04-06-08, 10:25 AM	Admittedly you did attempt to distill good from bad, peaceful from violent.
Rania 04-07-08, 11:21 AM	But on the other hand, a thousand Norwegians aren't likely to put on chain hauberks, grab the old Danish broadaxes, hop in their longships and go and burn down the TSR building in Lake Geneva or the WotC building in Redmond over a slight to the Aesir pantheon. (though a good, old-fashioned Viking Strandhogg would be a thing to see... ;) ) There's a minor, almost indistinguishable difference between getting "pretty upset" and being vocal about something, and going and burning down an embassy building to show one's displeasure, eh? :PNow THAT would be AWESOME. People of Norse background who hated Deities and Demigods unite! Attack the WotC building! Bring a broadaxe!! BTW, if anyone actually takes this seriously... call me. I'll join you.
MadPrak_Mark2 04-07-08, 09:19 PM	Yes and I keep hoping that one day he will get in a fight with that player named Jesus (Hay-sus) so that we get the most awesome hockey transcripts. Drake If this ever happens, SOMEONE NEEDS TO LET ME KNOW!! (Go Satan). The swastika is a fairly widespread symbol, in the west it's more or less exactly the same symbol as the nazi-swastika, and it's generally a sun symbol, in the east, it's got a few extra bars usually and is a happiness or luck symbol, though it exists in the same form as the nazi-variation in hinduism. You'll frequently see in china a mixing of the swastika and the bat, as the bat is a symbol of happiness, also. I've heard the Nazis had theirs in a counter clockwise rotation, inverting the symbol of life into a symbol of death Actually, I believe hitler did flip the symbol, so as to make the arms little axes when spun clockwise. But on the other hand, a thousand Norwegians aren't likely to put on chain hauberks, grab the old Danish broadaxes, hop in their longships and go and burn down the TSR building in Lake Geneva or the WotC building in Redmond over a slight to the Aesir pantheon. (though a good, old-fashioned Viking Strandhogg would be a thing to see... ) There's a minor, almost indistinguishable difference between getting "pretty upset" and being vocal about something, and going and burning down an embassy building to show one's displeasure, eh? That'd be a thing to see... hell, I might join them, but more for the Deformity feats in Elder Evils than for some minor mistakes in stating up the Aesir(and I say this having been an Asatru...) BTW, if anyone actually takes this seriously... call me. I'll join you. Ok, what's you're number? ;)
sciborg3 04-10-08, 10:47 AM	So, who's this god (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) worshipped by slaves that slaughtered the first-born? Anyone I know? ;)
awaken_D_M_golem 04-10-08, 04:52 PM	~maybe you don't know it/him/whatever ?? Phoenix00 over on the CO-board just posted an Epic Binder using combo, based on Bloodlines and assorted, debased fun stuff. Nuclear Religion - pronounced like Queen's aEnglish "nuke-q-lar" We are all gonna die. The remnant will fight with sticks and stones. Develop "our" defenses first, before the bad guys do, and then feel bad afterwards. Andy War-Hair Planet of the Apes gives a hint or two. Divine Minds from Complete Psionic, are the leaders of society. Plane of Radiance - elemental resonant / key plane. Lots of Light powers, and weapons. Lots of Prismatic powers, and weapons. The Illithids gave us the knowledge in the most unspeakable way, and then we killed them. on and on ... oh yeah, AND it's all a great conspiracy of some sort or another, probably from the Ba'atezu, maybe a Slaad double cross ...
Kain_Darkwind 04-10-08, 05:07 PM	So, who's this god (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) worshipped by slaves that slaughtered the first-born? Anyone I know? ;) Wow. They can put that in their online work but we aren't allowed to toss out stats for G-D? I bet Yeshua is off limits too.
sciborg3 04-10-08, 06:22 PM	Dammit Kain! Don't you realize that by TALKING about the epic binder article you're violating the CoC?! I should suggest banning you...;) On a more serious note, the epic binder was a great article. Need more stuff like that to bring the DI out of the toilet where it currently resides...but hey, "that on the web can eternal lie, and with strange aeons a return to Paizo might in the future lie."
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-10-08, 11:38 PM	It took me a second to realize that the vestige was that deity. "Pyramid-building slaves...Plagues brought down by a god...First-borns dead...waitaminute..." Maybe it's because he's freelance. Or maybe designers are chafing under the chain.
Rania 04-11-08, 11:41 AM	So, who's this god (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) worshipped by slaves that slaughtered the first-born? Anyone I know? ;)I know that I found it rather insulting; not so much for referencing the God I believe in, but doing so in a negative manner. And seriously, whoever wrote that needs to reread the book of Exodus. Ok, what's your number? ;)Maybe you could just PM me instead; it's probably long-distance.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-11-08, 12:09 PM	I know that I found it rather insulting; not so much for referencing the God I believe in, but doing so in a negative manner. It was a bit heavy handed, but I wasn't all that offended. I've done worse. Much worse. There's a line in one of my stories that's probably enough to get a fatwah issued on me. :)
MacrossSD 04-11-08, 12:17 PM	I know that I found it rather insulting; not so much for referencing the God I believe in, but doing so in a negative manner. And seriously, whoever wrote that needs to reread the book of Exodus. Maybe you could just PM me instead; it's probably long-distance. Yeah... Talk about hypocrisy... "Don't cheese off people on the message boards by talking religion" ... "because WE want to **** people off by turning the Jewish YHWH (and by extension the Christian God as well) into a villain essentially..."
sciborg3 04-11-08, 01:08 PM	I know that I found it rather insulting; not so much for referencing the God I believe in, but doing so in a negative manner. It wasn't negative at all unless you consider the first-born sons to be infants rather than the heads of households and that's a debate for OT scholars. It was far far better than the treatment of Hades (NE?), Shiva (NE?), and especially Kali, and perhaps some of those Taoist deities given evil alignments.
MacrossSD 04-11-08, 01:41 PM	As for paging Simon, comparing Eytan Bernstein to Nazi war criminals is beyond insulting. A. I wasn't even thinking of the Nazi-hunter reference when I wrote that. I just happened to think of Wiesenthal because of the Museum of Tolerance, more than anything. Thanks, I'll change that to something else. (the embarrassment just keeps coming in this thread. I was better off being under the rock!) B. I hadn't paid attention to the author's name.
Rania 04-11-08, 01:53 PM	May I please ask who Eytan Bernstein is? @sciborg: The difference is -- well, to be blunt and honest, it's that I don't worship Hades, Shiva, or Kali. Maybe they should all just stick to doing deities that would only be VAGUELY related to real-world religions if you were drunk and looking at it upside-down. I mean, there's some -- DISAGREEMENT on Pelor and the rest of the pantheon, but very few people would find that personally insulting. Messing up the object of one's belief... is different. Heck, even IRL religions that are barely worshipped shouldn't be statted up (I'm thinking specifically about the Aesir, because I don't like Greek mythology anyways). And, just because this needs to be posted: http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/comparative.html
MacrossSD 04-11-08, 02:05 PM	May I please ask who Eytan Bernstein is? I'm assuming he's the author of the article in question.
Rania 04-11-08, 02:09 PM	I'm assuming he's the author of the article in question.Oh. Thanks. ...proving once again, that Wisdom was my dump stat. Seriously, I think it'd be at 7 or something.
MacrossSD 04-11-08, 02:12 PM	Oh. Thanks. ...proving once again, that Wisdom was my dump stat. Seriously, I think it'd be at 7 or something. Don't worry. Given my performance in this thread at points, I think I must have taken both Wis and Cha as dump stats. :)
Rania 04-11-08, 02:15 PM	Don't worry. Given my performance in this thread at points, I think I must have taken both Wis and Cha as dump stats. :)Well, I have Asperger's, so it's a given for me. (To me, all my diagnoses don't necessarily mean I've a disorder; it's just a description of who I am. And part of that description is being oblivious and having no social skills.)
sciborg3 04-11-08, 02:27 PM	MacrossSD - thanks for changing it. sorry for getting worked up, was doing some research on the Holocaust last night so was a little overly sensitive today.... Raina - I'd like to think that art in any medium can be free to explore any idea within religion. Any belief worth having should be able to stand scrutiny, mockery, etc. Note that's different than attacking people because of their beliefs.
Rania 04-11-08, 02:45 PM	MacrossSD - thanks for changing it. sorry for getting worked up, was doing some research on the Holocaust last night so was a little overly sensitive today.... Raina - I'd like to think that art in any medium can be free to explore any idea within religion. Any belief worth having should be able to stand scrutiny, mockery, etc. Note that's different than attacking people because of their beliefs.Just because something can STAND mockery doesn't mean it's pleasant. I mean, anyone making fun of me for playing D&D (not that it's ever happened, BTW) wouldn't make me stop playing it, I'd simply get mad at them because it's not nice. And what they did with that epic binder wasn't attacking the person; it was attacking the BELIEF. Which is a lot more painful, believe me. Even if they didn't intend it to hurt, it still does; having someone accidentally step on your toe is still unpleasant. Also, they should know better. I could understand ME doing something like that, but then again, I have roughly the same amount of tact as a drunk elephant and I'm as aware of issues as yesterday's roadkill.
sciborg3 04-11-08, 04:08 PM	I'm not seeing the attack on the belief. Yaweh killed the first born, some other god (Anubis? Osiris?) saved those souls by making them vestiges. That's a far cry from placing Kali in the Abyss in a Cavern of Skulls where everyone strangles each other for eternity. Or Shang-ti being intolerant of chaos and apparently bereft of mercy.
MacrossSD 04-11-08, 04:45 PM	MacrossSD - thanks for changing it. sorry for getting worked up, was doing some research on the Holocaust last night so was a little overly sensitive today... No worries. :) If anything, I really should, as I said, be thanking you alerting me to the presence of my foot in my mouth. :)
Tequila_Sunrise 04-12-08, 01:51 AM	I've heard that The Force is a recognized religion in England. I wonder if there are any RL jedi who are offended by any of the Star Wars RPGs? TS
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-12-08, 03:54 PM	I've heard that The Force is a recognized religion in England. I wonder if there are any RL jedi who are offended by any of the Star Wars RPGs? TS I'd think that as Star Wars fans, they'd love it.
Kain_Darkwind 04-12-08, 04:59 PM	I'd think that as Star Wars fans, they'd love it. Wouldn't the same thought apply to stats for Jesus and Muhammad? As fans of these men, Christians and Muslims ought to love the idea. I mean, there are d20 stats for Moses, but I don't see many fellow Jews getting bent out of shape over it. Surely the same concept extends to the larger monotheistics as well?
Giradius 04-12-08, 06:18 PM	Rania: What about freedom of speech? @sciborg: The difference is -- well, to be blunt and honest, it's that I don't worship Hades, Shiva, or Kali. So its Ok to malign gods and religions as long as its not yours? you may not like to have your beliefs mocked, but then again some people might not like to be told they are going to hell for living good and altruistic lives but not accepting Christ, I am sure that gay people dont appreciate their expression of love being called an abomination, nor atheists being called fools (despite the fact that many of the worlds most gifted intelectuals are atheists). I find it annoying that religious people are the first to be offended by something directed at their belief system and yet by definition have no problem labeling all other religions and belief systems as false, and saying that that atheists or non believers are going hell, it is ok for the islamic world to condemn the west for its materialist values and moral degradation, yet as soon as an insult is directed at islam the so called "religion of peace" turns out to be not so peacefull, remember Salman Rushdie and the satanic verses? I think it should be OK to stat anyone, Jesus, Yahweh, Bill gates, Invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, Vercingetorix, or any other person be they religious, historical, living, dead, real, or fictitious. ((by the way the jedi religion is NOT accepted as a valid religion in Britain, you could not get the day of work because its Yodas birthday, that urban legend started because someone (on the internet i think) said that if a certain number of people write it on the census it willl become an acknowledged religion))
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-12-08, 07:32 PM	Wouldn't the same thought apply to stats for Jesus and Muhammad? As fans of these men, Christians and Muslims ought to love the idea. I mean, there are d20 stats for Moses, but I don't see many fellow Jews getting bent out of shape over it. Surely the same concept extends to the larger monotheistics as well? It's different for Jedi. People like Obi-Wan and Darth Vader aren't part of the religion, just fellow practitioners. It'd be like giving stats to the local minister, not Jesus.
Giradius 04-12-08, 09:27 PM	It's different for Jedi. People like Obi-Wan and Darth Vader aren't part of the religion, just fellow practitioners. It'd be like giving stats to the local minister, not Jesus. I would consider obi-wan a saint a least (he survived order 66, and is responsible for the continuation of the jedi religion by teaching luke, the only other jedi to do so is yoda and he is probably a saint as well) Darth vader is the subject of parable, a morality tale taught in jedi sunday schools to make sure the little younglings and padawans behave "do as you are told or you will get your limbs chopped off and have to wear an iron lung for the rest of your life"
Rania 04-14-08, 03:34 PM	Rania: What about freedom of speech?Freedom of speech is always a complicated thing. I don't think saying stuff like that should be ILLEGAL; one should just always be careful about what one says, and try not to hurt anybody. So it's OK to malign gods and religions as long as it's not yours?It's not okay, it just doesn't hurt me personally. Think about it this way. Some guy you don't know breaks into the house of somebody else you don't know. The action was wrong; but it doesn't hurt you personally. And me, I try to avoid mocking specific religions. I think that it's the PEOPLE that are stupid. I have no problem with Islam; I DO have a problem with people who used it as an excuse to murder innocents (or as innocent as anyone can be). I ALSO have a problem with people who hate all Muslims just because of their religion. you may not like to have your beliefs mocked, but then again some people might not like to be told they are going to hell for living good and altruistic lives but not accepting Christ,...Okay, this is a point that's been debated by most everybody for centuries, so I'm not going to try and revive it. I am sure that gay people don't appreciate their expression of love being called an abomination, Your mistake here is assuming that all Christians believe the same thing. Some churches would go farther than that in condemning homosexuality; some support gay marriage. My denomination considers it an effect of an imperfect world, similar to diseases and harmful desires (such as suicidal tendencies). I could give you everything they wrote about it, but I had to write a paper on that topic, and believe me, reading the Acts of Synod is BORING. It could probably be found somewhere, if you care. nor atheists being called fools (despite the fact that many of the world's most gifted intellectuals are atheists).The Biblical definition of "fool", which I assume you're talking about here, would have more in common with a low Wisdom than a low Intelligence. And many intellectuals of our modern age are atheists because that's all that's taught in schools. Just like many intellectuals of the Medieval ages were Christian because that was what was taught then. I find it annoying that religious people are the first to be offended by something directed at their belief systemYou'd be offended if somebody attacked something you held at the core of your life. You seem to believe in free speech; and you're getting rather annoyed at what you see to be a violation of such (it might be, it might not be, but you think it is so that's what defines your behaviour). and yet by definition have no problem labeling all other religions and belief systems as false, Would you have a problem saying that "2+2=11" is false? (It's true in a 3-base number system; but since we assume the 10-base number system, which is often what the other person is using, we would find it incorrect.) and saying that that atheists or non believers are going hell, It always amuses me how atheists get annoyed if somebody (of ANY religion) says they're going to Hell, when most of them don't believe that a Hell (or anything else) exists after death. it is ok for the islamic world to condemn the west for its materialist values and moral degradation, It's okay for EVERYONE to condemn the Western world for how screwed up we are, because it's true. yet as soon as an insult is directed at islam the so called "religion of peace" turns out to be not so peaceful, remember Salman Rushdie and the satanic verses?That's the same for most things, from religion to academic disciplines to politics to familial disputes to whatever else you can think of. I think it should be OK to stat anyone, Jesus, Yahweh, Bill Gates, Invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, Vercingetorix, or any other person be they religious, historical, living, dead, real, or fictitious.You can stat whoever you like; just be aware of what responses it might engender. So, you could post Bill Gates: NE male human expert 10 anywhere, but you might get a lot of people mad at you if it was on a Microsoft board. It's not censorship; it's knowing what is appropriate behaviour for a certain situation. And then choosing to follow or disregard it. ((by the way the jedi religion is NOT accepted as a valid religion in Britain, you could not get the day of work because its Yoda's birthday, that urban legend started because someone (on the internet i think) said that if a certain number of people write it on the census it willl become an acknowledged religion))Man, it would be so hilarious if Jedi actually WAS an official religion.
Rania 04-14-08, 03:39 PM	Wouldn't the same thought apply to stats for Jesus and Muhammad? As fans of these men, Christians and Muslims ought to love the idea. I mean, there are d20 stats for Moses, but I don't see many fellow Jews getting bent out of shape over it. Surely the same concept extends to the larger monotheistics as well?The stats for Jesus (as a man) would be relatively simple. NG male human expert (something). Decent Str (carpenter), decent Int (knowledge of the Law), average Cha ("He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him." Isaiah 53:2b), high Wis (duh), and I'd say average Con and Dex. Now it's when you get to the DIVINE part it gets tricky.
Giradius 04-14-08, 05:54 PM	Freedom of speech is always a complicated thing. I don't think saying stuff like that should be ILLEGAL; one should just always be careful about what one says, and try not to hurt anybody. Contrary to what you may think, i don't believe in total freedom of speech, i don't think that it a good thing to encourage the acceptance of lies as truth. expressing your opinions about anything real or true (such as a football team, or a politician) is fine, but to make a claim that is false and expect others to acknowledge that it has equal worth is not a social virtue. It's not okay, it just doesn't hurt me personally. Think about it this way. Some guy you don't know breaks into the house of somebody else you don't know. The action was wrong; but it doesn't hurt you personally. This is very black and white example, what if the person breaking into the house was retrieving something that belonged to him that the occupier had stolen? You make a lot of assumptions about peoples view of morality, some would say (social Darwinists, people with the dog eat dog view of the world) that if an object can be taken from you, it was never really yours. And me, I try to avoid mocking specific religions. I think that it's the PEOPLE that are stupid. I have no problem with Islam; I DO have a problem with people who used it as an excuse to murder innocents (or as innocent as anyone can be). I ALSO have a problem with people who hate all Muslims just because of their religion. So the people are stupid, but the ideology that believes Mohammed flew to heaven on a magic horse, that its acceptable for the prophet to consummate the marriage of his 9 year old wife, and that it is permissible to beat your wife if she does not do as she is told. these are not cliches or stereotypes, they are actually in the Koran and accepted as historic fact by Muslim scholars. The extremists who you claim use it as an excuse ARE the true Muslims, the Taliban were TRUE Muslims, Afghanistan was an Islamic theocracy, its what happens when the religion is followed to the letter, the nice, kind, decent people who identify themselves as Muslims are not true Muslims, they are moderates, they have taken a few liberties on some things and ignored others all together, if you know a Muslim with a normal bank account they are breaking Islamic law, if you know a Muslim who has taken a photograph or drawn a picture, they are breaking Islamic law. The normal "Muslims" that you may know are probably good and kind citizens, however their goodness or kindness is not because they are Muslims but because they are good people, the terrorists who believe the reward of suicide attacks are entry into paradise would not commit their attacks if they were taught the reward for terrorism is eternity in hell or that there is no afterlife, therefore when a person is good, its because they are good, when a terrorist blows up a school he has done it because Islam permits it, think about it, the moderate Muslims in the western world condemned 9/11, what were the real Muslims in the Islamic theocracy of Iran doing, cheering in the streets, western society has a had a beneficial effect on these people, they are free to be moderates, in the middle east they would be in big trouble. Quote: you may not like to have your beliefs mocked, but then again some people might not like to be told they are going to hell for living good and altruistic lives but not accepting Christ, ...Okay, this is a point that's been debated by most everybody for centuries, so I'm not going to try and revive it. There is no debate, the bible is quite clear on the matter, only people who accept Jesus will get into heaven... Ephesians 2:8-9 “for by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory.” John 3:18, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” Your mistake here is assuming that all Christians believe the same thing. Some churches would go farther than that in condemning homosexuality; some support gay marriage. My denomination considers it an effect of an imperfect world, similar to diseases and harmful desires (such as suicidal tendencies). I could give you everything they wrote about it, but I had to write a paper on that topic, and believe me, reading the Acts of Synod is BORING. It could probably be found somewhere, if you care. So you consider Homosexuality a disease? Strange because I consider religious belief to be a sign of mental illness! people who get down on their knees every night and talk to themselves (and believe they hear an answer) are no different than the schizophrenics that talk to themselves and hear voices that reply, we accept that these people are mad, the only reason we don't do the same with religious people is that there are so many of them. also the individual beliefs of denominations are irrelevant, the more accepting denominations are deviating from the teachings of the bible (because they are basically nice and accepting people and have an internal conflict, which they resolve by ignoring what the bible says on the matter, both old and new testament!) Leviticus 18:22 "Homosexual acts are an abomination to God." Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sex with another man, kill them both." Romans 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Romans 1:27 "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." The Biblical definition of "fool", which I assume you're talking about here, would have more in common with a low Wisdom than a low Intelligence. And many intellectuals of our modern age are atheists because that's all that's taught in schools. Just like many intellectuals of the Medieval ages were Christian because that was what was taught then. Absolute rubbish!!!! a fool by definition, is someone of low intelligence this is a real world statement in a real world book not a rule in the DMG or players handbook, the real world not D&D (although i appreciate your confusion, after all you believe in talking snakes, divine magic and celestials) but the dictionary definition of fool (archaic definition as it would be defined in the bible) is Archaic: A mentally deficient person; an idiot even your D&D answer makes no sense, wisdom equates with will power and observational capacity, spot checks and will saves are Wisdom skills, Knowledge science, knowledge religion, knowledge philosophy are intelligence based skills, and only the first one covers knowledge of how and why the universe works, the second is peoples unproven opinions on it, the third is usually what our place in it is. and to honest even saying that atheist intellectuals are lacking in wisdom is still offensive, when its religions inability to OBSERVE the facts. Make a spot check, the real world DC 1, who is it that has the low wisdom again? and your laughable claim that many intellectuals of our modern age are atheists because that's all that's taught in schools. is total bunk, atheism is not taught in schools, atheism is not a subject, if you are referring to the theory of evolution and the big bang theory, that is science not atheism, atheism only mean "lack of belief in a deity" A (without) Theism (belief in a god), Without theism! Science however is taught in schools, and generally speaking people who learn about science find that it offers better answers to questions than religion does,and so atheism follows from there, you can teach atheism its not a body of knowledge, its a standpoint on something, your claim atheism is taught is like saying that blue is better than red is taught, what you mean is that atheists believe in science, and science is taught in school. You'd be offended if somebody attacked something you held at the core of your life. You seem to believe in free speech; and you're getting rather annoyed at what you see to be a violation of such (it might be, it might not be, but you think it is so that's what defines your behavior). It would be impossible for someone to offend me like that, I hold science as the superior form of knowledge and would hold that at my core, the only attack you can make on science would come from a position of ignorance and the insults or opinions of anyone who would make such an argument are irrelevant to me, their opinion would mean nothing as it comes from stupidity and ignorance and so it would not be possible to insult it. As I said before i don't agree with unlimited free speech, what annoys me is not the violation, but the hypocrisy. Would you have a problem saying that "2+2=11" is false? (It's true in a 3-base number system; but since we assume the 10-base number system, which is often what the other person is using, we would find it incorrect.) Irrelevant (or poor example), because real life does not have multiple "number systems", God either exists or doesn't, if he exists it is either the Christian god or isn't, there are no "other number systems" when it comes to reality, on the issue of religion its either true or false, So I will put more simply Do you believe YOUR religion is true? if you do, then by affirming your standpoint you have by definition claimed all others false. if you wimp out and try to claim "all other religions have an element of truth" then the question merely becomes Do you believe YOUR religion is truer (or contains more truth) than others? which means you still claim that other religions are less true (closer to false or totally false) It always amuses me how atheists get annoyed if somebody (of ANY religion) says they're going to Hell, when most of them don't believe that a Hell (or anything else) exists after death. I am not annoyed at the insult, I am annoyed about the snap judgement made about my qualities as a person, by someone who who lived thousands of years before i was born (or by modern people who don't even know me), the insult is weak, the threat is weak (because as you say I don't believe in hell and so don't consider it anything real) however the intention to insult, the intention of the threat IS Real! and that annoys me! It's okay for EVERYONE to condemn the Western world for how screwed up we are, because it's true. Ahhhh a pathetic show of the wests self loathing!, I suppose you think cutting off a hand for shop lifting and death by stoning for adultery is a better way to live?, what EXACTLY is screwed up, the fact that we are rich? the fact that we are technologically advanced? the fact that we are powerful? capitalism? (this one always makes me laugh, if it wasn't for capitalism you would be dead by 30 and have brown teeth, you wouldn't be able to afford a computer, nor would you have time to use it if you did because you would be working down a mine or something) or is that we are rich, WHILE others are poor? (no aliens gave early Europeans or Asians money, or blueprints, everything the west has, the west either worked, suffered, created themselves, or fought for) Ironically if you said the same thing in somewhere without western values (like Iran, Saudi Arabia, you would first have to wait for them to catch up technologically so you post on this forum, then you have the police beating your door down and taking you away for subversion) That's the same for most things, from religion to academic disciplines to politics to familial disputes to whatever else you can think of. I don't remember death threats and the murder of several people occurring when My uncle owed me £15 a few years ago, nor do i remember riots on the streets when Louis deBroglie proposed that particles of matter can propagate like a wave, or when the age of consent for homosexual activity was lowered from 18 to 16 in the UK, What about all the times that Elvis has been parodied on TV, where there Elvis fans setting fires and making death threats, No there were not. typical Islamic apologist, look up how many terrorist attacks and mass riots associated with Islam have occurred over the last 10 years, now look how many terrorist attacks and riots have occurred connected with Buddhism (not issues involving Tibet, that's due to Chinese occupation). I don't think you find an equal number. You can stat whoever you like; just be aware of what responses it might engender. oooh threats (thinly veiled but threats all the same), As I have said, the disapproval and opinions of the religious mean nothing to me, however the threat of violence from adherents of "the religion of peace" (which is wrong anyway, Islam means submission, not peace) or the believers of the god who says "turn the other cheek". So, you could post Bill Gates: NE male human expert 10 anywhere, but you might get a lot of people mad at you if it was on a Microsoft board. It's not censorship; it's knowing what is appropriate behaviour for a certain situation. And then choosing to follow or disregard it. Why does everyone hate bill gates? he is good at what he does and he has made lots of money! I think it stems form bitterness and resentment. Man, it would be so hilarious if Jedi actually WAS an official religion. Why? it would be just as valid as yours! both have belief in something considered powerful and omnipresent and yet at the same time manages to be unproven and not backed with any kind of real empirical evidence. both are based on a work of fiction. both are held as ABSOLUTE truth by their believers... this is the hypocrisy i was referring to, why would a religion based on fiction have less merit than any other religion (which is also based on fiction), maybe a real jedi would believe that George lucas creating star wars was the will of the force, that he was inspired by the force and merely used a more modern medium to convey its message. I think this thread will probably be closed now, i am truly sorry to those posters who will have lost out, but I hold my beliefs just as strongly as rania holds his/her own, and some opinions and statements should be challenged. So again, I am sorry. And to Rania, I don't hate or have any hostile feelings toward YOU, you are a victim, not a culprit, you have my sympathy and my care.
Rania 04-14-08, 06:14 PM	http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png That's it. That's an attack. I'm no victim. And YOU were the one who started it.
sciborg3 04-14-08, 06:44 PM	There's a certain amount of amusement that not only am i proven wrong in my assumption that game based on RL faith can be separated from RL faith/politics, but that i am proven wrong in my very own thread making that claim. :)
Giradius 04-14-08, 08:15 PM	I like the cartoon, very apt :D I am sure my girlfriend will agree with you. I can understand WHY you feel I started the attack, your posts are crystal clear to you, they are statements of truth. However I disagree, and i challenge your idea of truth, I merely responded to statements you made, (which you percieve as attack) however I believe that it was you who started the attack. when you acted as an apologist for the violent and anachronistic religion of islam (I am not claiming all muslims are violent, merely that the religion itself is) and I am guessing you are based in the USA, so you betray the memories of the dead of 9/11 by making excuses for the doctrine that motivated their murderer. When you betrayed the women of Iran and saudia arabia who have been executed for no more reason of seeking solace in the arms of another from their abusive husbands (who they had no choice in marrying in the first place). When you defend to mentality of showing tolerance or respect to the religious views of others (regardless how irrational or vile they may be), without realising that people have been executed for just that in countries dominated by religion. When you likened Homosexuality to a disease! (I have friends who would not appreciate that). When you accused some of the greatest people the human race has ever produced of being fools, or having low wisdom. When you betray reason with your relgious beliefs and then betray faith when you lack the conviction to justify them. When you showed ignorance of what atheism ACTUALLY is and suggested it was taught in schools. As I said, I bare you no ill will, I am aware now that my post may have been a little antagonistic, and you no doubt agree, However some things needed to be replied to, some parties defended, some misunderstandings on your part rectified. I dont think you are bad person, i think you are a troubled one as are many others on this planet, you are troubled by the uncertainty in life, by the fear of death, by the observation that other people whom you consider less worthy (by which i mean they may be stupider, or less moral) can have more than you, and by looking at the basic unfairness of life generally , what i have got from your posts (based on your admission that you once venerated the Aesiric and vaniric pantheons, and on what you have posted here) is that you are someone who has been searching for meaning or comfort in life, and have thought you have found it several times only to be disappointed, the reason for this searching i cannot say, maybe you have suffered, maybe you have a keen and curious mind that seeks answers, maybe a bit of both,maybe neither. But I do consider you a victim, you are a victim of your inability to let go of superstition, of your willingness to surrender yourself to dogma, of your willingness to allow people who have been dead nearly 2000 years to think for you and tell you how to live a life in 2008, of your insistance that truth can be found in an anachronistic book that offers not one shred of proof for its claims. and believe all this based on where you born and what you have been taught to believe, had you been born in the middle east, you would be a muslim, but you were probably born (or raised) in the USA, where you are taught that religion is a valid route to truth and should be respected, that faith is rational or even commendable. I care deeply about the human race, I want it to move onward and upward, to work marvels with science and technology and aspire to greater things, to create heaven on earth instead of waiting for it after death, to answer the great questions about the universe and about ourselves through the wonders of science. And that wont happen as long as people keep beliveing in talking snakes, eternal damnation, and surrender to an ideology that will not justify itself with either evidence nor show of merit, some christians may do good things, but they are not doing them because they are good christians, but because they are good people. I hope one day, you do find what you are looking for, in science, biology never calls anyone an abomination, physics does not tell you you will go to hell if you dont venerate a mythic figure or tell you what you can and cant do, chemistry does not require you ask forgiveness for sins that you could not have stopped if you had wanted to (omnipotence of god=fatalism for mankind), be free from guilt and shame and live according to YOUR views on right and wrong not on those of desert dwelling nomads dead for millenia, be good because you love your fellow man not because you fear hellfire or are trying to earn brownie points with god, Its nowhere near as bad in a godless universe as you might think! :D preach over! *Edit: My posts may have been a little much, but I am passionate about these things but having said that, just because we have a difference of opinion, doesn't mean we cant be civil or even friendly :D and sciborg3: I personally think it IS possible to keep them separate, i would not bat an eyelid if someone played a game with clerics of jehovah and gave him domains and stats, after all its ALL fiction to an atheist. However I am more than willing to reply to those who cannot tolerate such things. dont give up on it yet, if WOTC wont allow it on the boards (understandable, they are a business after all), there is always PM's :D
MacrossSD 04-14-08, 08:33 PM	It was a nice thread while it lasted... :hides: :surrender
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-14-08, 09:07 PM	I guess this is why they have the policy.
Giradius 04-14-08, 09:15 PM	The only problem they can have with it, is if things degenerate into flame wars and so on, as long as we can behave like adults, and discuss things in a civilized manner, there is no issue. i can be polite and civil to those i disagree with, if i couldnt, i would be typing this from a prison cell. :D
MadPrak_Mark2 04-15-08, 12:41 AM	Rania: What about freedom of speech? So its Ok to malign gods and religions as long as its not yours? Of course, Penn and Teller irrevocably proved that on television.
Giradius 04-15-08, 01:15 AM	That was a brilliant show, Penn and Teller are kings among men!!! I liked the analogy of different donominations of christians being like different groups of Elvis fans arguing over the ingredients of his favourite fried chicken coating... "No paprika? (edit) HERETICS!" :rofl:
WizO_Keldar 04-15-08, 02:37 AM	The only problem they can have with it, is if things degenerate into flame wars and so on, as long as we can behave like adults, and discuss things in a civilized manner, there is no issue. This is very well said. We are well aware that this topic is often troublesome. However, if these differences of opinion and belief can be stated without insult and malice, discussion can continue. Please respect each other in your replies, and keep gaming as the context of your comments. Thanks.
Scion_of_The_Eternal 04-15-08, 08:47 AM	Giradius, your sources is flawed. If you want to claim that something is in the Koran, make sure it is there first and that you interpret its meaning correctly. What you have said about Islam is full of misconception. For one thing, the extremist ARE NOT TRUE MUSLIM. Islam do not encourage terrorism or violence. You are just believing those fanatics said.
sciborg3 04-15-08, 12:35 PM	The flame war raged, men and women driven to burning. At the center of this conflagration, a lowly french-toast making drone, model Sci-borg 3.0, whirred about in despair of ever hearing the voice of Truth... A thunderous boom, lightning as thick as the old oak tree split in twain last summer. All the battles ceased as the smoke cleared. A creature of Heaven's own fire, come to douse the battles and give answer to Sci-borg 3.0's question: We are well aware that this topic is often troublesome. However, if these differences of opinion and belief can be stated without insult and malice, discussion can continue. Please respect each other in your replies, and keep gaming as the context of your comments. Thanks. That day is Keldar day, and it is celebrated with french-toast for all...
Giradius 04-15-08, 04:29 PM	Scion_of_The_Eternal: Spoken like someone who has probably never even been in the same room as a Koran , dont just accept the media's word for it (or mine for that matter) read the book for yourself!, while you are at it, why not research the number of islamic terror attacks have been perpetrated over the last 10 years, and compare them with non islamic terror attacks, you will find that the Kuffars (non muslims) are way behind in the death toll. And If you want me to cite my sources then so be it. sorry to everyone else, I could have left it, but that would mean I argue from ignorance, which is unacceptable to me, I appreciate that its a little off topic, but an accusation has been made and i just want to make it clear i am using islamic sources instead of what the media says. I again want to point out that in no way am i saying that all muslims are bad, violent or evil people, there are good people who take the best elements of the religion (the stuff revolving around charity etc) and conveniently lose the rest of it, just like good people who are christians do (who take the good stuff (mostly from the new testament) and conveniently forget the bad parts (mostly the old testament), but remember just because the nice muslim or the nice christian has ignored the vile parts of the religion, it does not mean they are not there in the book. As I have said, it is the people who are good, not the religion itself. The Koran 2:The Cow 191: Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 216: Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 4: Women 74: Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 76: Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 89: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. (they are not even supposed to be firends with you!!) 91: If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 5: the table Spread 33: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. Surah 8: The Spoils of war 12: I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 15-18: When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 59-60: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 65: Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. ( and on 9/11, few killed thousands) 87: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Surah 9: Repentance 5: Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 12-14: If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. (so kill the leaders of rival faiths as well as prominent atheists) 73: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 111: Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. Surah 47: Muhammed 4: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. and in the Hadiths Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64-65, 7:62:88 Narrated by Aisha (the wife of mohammed). that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). also Sahih Bukhari 7.18 Narrated by Ursa The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry. and another Hadith. Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915-48-17 Narrated Aisha and Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. There you go Scion_of_The_Eternal , sources cited! And even if you find and/or post a number of passages against these, it makes no difference, the passages are still there in the book, and all you have done is shown that the Koran contradicts itself. Again i dont blame you, you probably had not thought about it before it became news, some of us however had opinions on the subject long before the the terror attacks and as such our opinions are formed from reliable sources and not just the media, the terror attacks just confirmed what we already knew. I have no intention of posting on this specific subject again (to avoid a religious debate, there are sites for that sort thing), and so i will rest on my laurels, I have given my opinions and cited my reasons and sources for those opinions, I have made a statement not debated, anything that somebody posts against it is trying to start a relgious debate and that has no place on a roleplaying forum. subject officially dropped
WizO_Sentinel 04-15-08, 06:55 PM	This thread has derailed from it's topic into an open debate about religions and not the game. We are closing it for Community Management review.