Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sinrae_kinesti 06-15-07, 02:37 AM	Ok folks here is a quandry i have come across. a friend of mine claims he has an intelligent race with no concept of any sort of higher power.by higher power i mean tree spirits, ancestor spirits, gods (anything greater than them that they revere or possibly worship). is this possible? how could a race not wonder where they came from?
sciborg2 06-15-07, 02:41 AM	You can wonder where you come from without religion - like scientists studying evolution, geology, etc. I agree that human like beings would make religions, but other races might only if they have a human mentality. One could argue that our helplessness before our enivornment is what orginally created our religious impulse. If a race is master or at one with its enviroment, it may not feel awe. There is also our sense of community - we are communal animals. Beings who are masters of their world may not need to come together with the same urgency as us and again a need to be connected to something higher - a Father or Mother figure - may not exist within such a race. Why revere anything when you find yourself master might be one way of looking at it. There is also the question of a race that abandons concepts of religion or are betrayed by their gods...in D&D the latter is a possibility since god in D&D isn't a transcendent being per se and while they are "holy", "archetypal" or "symbolic" they can be killed.
sinrae_kinesti 06-15-07, 02:47 AM	That is a very reasoned argument.but even the native americans who believed they were one with nature had gaurdian spirits. Perhaps if the race were immortal as well as masters of their environment i could understand what you mean. however the race my friend has claimed to create is mortal... they are a half dragon half elf species... both of which have gods or a concept thereof also on the evolution subject. it cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt so scientist who choose to believe in evolution must base this belief on eduicated guesses... and belief in a guess is faith so evolution is just as much a religion as christianity or Islam
sciborg2 06-15-07, 02:50 AM	trtue, death is a pretty powerful impetus to seek meaning in something spiritual... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IP_Rjx4wVY
sinrae_kinesti 06-15-07, 02:57 AM	indeed and this is why i cannot understand how a race or even just a primitive culture would have no gods or a concept of divinity
Rerecros 06-15-07, 03:21 AM	indeed and this is why i cannot understand how a race or even just a primitive culture would have no gods or a concept of divinity I believe this is because you make the mistake of assuming everyone thinks like you, but your not the first. :P A race without belief would see the universe as is, and not try to impose themselves on it, making themselves the center of their own universe. Very left brained.
Terraneaux 06-15-07, 03:53 AM	There are people IRL who do not believe in higher powers, so it's perfectly possible in DnD, which, as a fictional setting, can be much broader and more inclusive than rl. Remember, in DnD, gods are fallible. If a race were to generally know this, they could see gods as merely very powerful beings, and not truly 'worship' them.
sinrae_kinesti 06-15-07, 07:08 AM	all this is true. but even in real life an aetheist still understands the concept of divinity. whether or not they believe is another matter. they would still understand that someone else believes in a god. they would not be confused when someone made mention of god or gods just believe it to be a fabrication rather than fact
Kail 06-15-07, 07:15 AM	Just to throw a monkey wrench in the works here. This race resides in a fairly standard D&D type world with divine casters? They see physical manifestations of the power of higher beings, powers that have tangible influence on the world in which they dwell? If those statements are true, as they are for most D&D settings, then this race is going to be a really, really odd bunch. Sort of like someone denying the existance of say, gravity. While they may hold no reverance for higher powers/religion/spirits, denying they exist is something I just can't conceptualize of a D&D race.
DwarfPcfan 06-15-07, 09:51 AM	The works of clerics mean nothing in face of logic while divine magic is believed to be divine manifestation. Remember wizards also cast spells, psionics bend reality, etc. A race with no concept of divinity would see clerics and all the other whatnot as simply another spellcaster (just one with incomprehensible beliefs) It's perfectly sensible to have a race with no concept of divinity. religion comes from fear and an attempt to understand the world. That said a race who can overpower his enviromment would have no need of belief in nurturing, creative forces over them because they take care of that themselves. As well any creature encountered could be seen as simply another species in existence and any strange phenomena would be attributed to natural forces. Considering those aspects, it's perfectly reasonable to imagine a race who simply believes only what they see, takes everything into context and feels no need to believe in higher powers sinrae_kinesti, I think your interpretation of science and evolution is completely inacurate. The first tenant of science is that one does not believe anything till sufficient proof is found. The second tenant of science is that science does not claim to explain everything but searches for the real rational answers. Science is the anthesis of faith. Believing in evolution is not anything like believing in Islam or any other religion. Evolution presents facts to advance what it says (fossils, geological records, etc) as well any scientist will explain that a real scientist works in the context of a theory till a better one comes along. Science has no faith into anything it's just guided by unified idea to match everything together till a better idea comes along. This unified idea serves no purpose other then to allow people to have a similar language to work with when cataloguing knowledge.The basic principle of science is not to accept anything at face value and to reject answers that prove implausible. That's why scientific theories are constantly revised and redone. When the unified idea crumbles before fact, it is rejected for a better one. These unified ideas are called Paradigmysm. Over history, we changed scientific paradigmysm several times: Aristocelean Physics, Ptomelamic Astronomy, etc. All these unified concepts were accepted during their respective periods in order to have a working base but were uniformily rejected when they were proven false. You cannot compare evolution to a religion because the first accept that it is only a possible explanation (and probably the best till another comes along) that could indeed be false while the second depends completly on beliefs and in fact the whole concept of a religion is believing in a higher force or concept that is impossible to sense, completly perceive etc AND accepting it as the TRUTH. To actually believe in religion means that one has faith in the principle wether or not somebody else offers an equally valid answer, that fact is you have FAITH that your answer is the correct one. All these things considered, I believe that a race could have no concept of religion, divinity, etc simply because they never have any need that could be only be satisfied by those concepts...
Derren S. 06-15-07, 10:10 AM	In a world of magic it is certainly possible that there are people who do not believe in divinity. For example there was/is a faction in Planescape which believes that all beings which are called deities are just really powerfull spellcasters and that everyone when he gains enough knowledge power can become like them.
sciborg2 06-15-07, 01:41 PM	I think a discussion of RL evolution is beyond the question of societies in D&D having religious beliefs.
Millennium 06-15-07, 03:23 PM	There don't appear to be any real-world analogues to a society that has never had any concept of a higher power. There are certain zealots who believe that this state of nonbelief is actually the natural state of humanity, but they're as stymied in the ability to prove this as any theistic person is to prove the existence of their higher powers. What this means is that you don't have any real-world inspiration to base this on. This could be considered a Good Thing or a Bad Thing, depending on your perspective: you don't have anything to reference, but you have complete freedom to develop the culture however you wish. It sounds as though the player doesn't want this culture to merely lack religion: he wants it to not even understand what a higher power is. About the only real requirement for this sort of thing is that the culture would need to be very isolated. Most D&D cultures do believe in, or at least understand the concept of, divinity, and if this "divinity-less" culture had extensive contact then sooner or later it would at least come to understand what the heck this "god" thing all the foreigners talk about is. Exactly why the culture is so isolated, however, is up to you; maybe they live in some valley that is very hard to access, or perhaps they live in some demiplane somewhere. Maybe the world is so young that many of the major races haven't even made first contact with one another yet. It's even possible that this culture is just really xenophobic. In any case, discuss this with the player and draw something up together with him. This has the potential to get really nasty if your vision of how such a culture would work doesn't agree with his, so it's better to just nip it in the bud by letting him do most of the design work.
Thegans 06-15-07, 04:52 PM	I came up with an idea for a race very similar to that( I didn't make stats for them yet). I think I called them Vurul (or something like that).The closest thing they have to a belief in a higher power is magic, which they believe comes from their own will. They do acnowledge the existence of ousideres but don't believe that they are souls, nor do they believe in souls. They also have a strange grasp of the sense of time. Although you could argue that they view time as a higher power. Here is what wouldd probably happen if a Vurul meets a cleric. Cleric - "You don't believe in the gods." Vurul - "What's a god?" Cleric - "They are immortal beings with limitless power." Vurul - " Demiliches." Cleric - " No the are not undead. They don't die." Vurul - "Oh now I get it. Their magic users that live on the astral plane." Cleric - "What do you think will happen to your soul when you die?" Vurul - "I don't think I own one of those. If I did I guess someone would take it since I don't have anymore use for it. Is that a kind of weapon?" Cleric - "What do you think happens when you die? Do you think you just perish?" Vurul -"Don't be rediculous nothing perishes. If that was the case I would not have a childhood because if things perished when they were gone their would be no past. I can remember my childhood so there has to be a past." Cleric - "Where did you come from?" ::The Vurul explains reproduction to the cleric:: Cleric- "How can the dead come back to life if nothing is left over?" Vurul - "Obviously the body holds part of the creatures will." Cleric - "If there is no body?" Vurul - "Oh come on their is always a body. I already told you things don't perish just because they are not there anymore. If they did their would be no past." Cleric - "What of outsiders?" Vurul - " Obviously if their is a past their has to be a future. Outsiders are clearly reflections of beings from the future that learned how to exist as pure will." Cleric - "Undead." Vurul - " Shadows of the past." You just have to give them a very wierd mind set. Their is a perfect example in a tv show called Doctor Who. The Dalek, ignoring the one episode with a bunch of Dalek worshiping the Dalek emperor. Cyber Leader: [to another Cybermen] Open visual link! [the Cyber Leader appears on a screen in front of the other three Daleks] Cyber Leader: Daleks, be warned. You have declared war upon the Cybermen. Dalek Sec: This is not war. This is pest control! Cyber Leader: We have five million Cybermen. How many are you? Dalek Sec: Four. Cyber Leader: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks? Dalek Sec: We would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek! You are superior in only one respect. Cyber Leader: What is that? Dalek Sec: You are better at dying. That does not sound like a race that would believe in a higher power.
Gemstone 06-15-07, 05:41 PM	Cleric - "What of outsiders?" Vurul - " Obviously if their is a past their has to be a future. Outsiders are clearly reflections of beings from the future that learned how to exist as pure will." Cleric - "Undead." Vurul - " Shadows of the past." O.o Here, have an official Gemstone Board Mini: :gel: - Gelatinous Cube Rog5 to put in your sig for a post that actually made me rethink my entire view on Outsiders.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-15-07, 06:32 PM	If a race is master or at one with its enviroment, it may not feel awe. Case in point; I certainly don't.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-15-07, 06:41 PM	Has anybody mentioned the Athar yet? They're a sect from the Planescape setting that doesn't believe in the divinity of the gods. They claim that there is no inherent difference between a so-called deity and any other powerful outsider (such as an arch-fiend or slaad lord or arch celestial).
Adrez Nesnsid 06-15-07, 06:44 PM	also on the evolution subject. it cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt so scientist who choose to believe in evolution must base this belief on eduicated guesses... and belief in a guess is faith so evolution is just as much a religion as christianity or Islam I disagree! Secondhand physical evidence is always better evidence than mere hearsay and conjecture!
sciborg2 06-16-07, 02:33 AM	I agree that creatures that see time differently might not care about gods or religion. Our, shall we say, complex relationship with Time is what makes us seekers of divinity. This is all from a very secular, D&D related standpoint as otherwise we delve into topics that will move us far off course...perhaps such important discussions can take place elsewhere as it seems a shame to disengage from healthy intellectual conversation/debate...
sinrae_kinesti 06-16-07, 06:35 AM	sinrae_kinesti, I think your interpretation of science and evolution is completely inacurate. The first tenant of science is that one does not believe anything till sufficient proof is found. The second tenant of science is that science does not claim to explain everything but searches for the real rational answers. Science is the anthesis of faith. Believing in evolution is not anything like believing in Islam or any other religion. Evolution presents facts to advance what it says (fossils, geological records, etc) as well any scientist will explain that a real scientist works in the context of a theory till a better one comes along. Science has no faith into anything it's just guided by unified idea to match everything together till a better idea comes along. This unified idea serves no purpose other then to allow people to have a similar language to work with when cataloguing knowledge.The basic principle of science is not to accept anything at face value and to reject answers that prove implausible. if you wish to discuss this further you may PM me so the board is not dragged off topic
Rerecros 06-16-07, 06:54 AM	if you wish to discuss this further you may PM me so the board is not dragged off topic :rofl: you've been trying to drag this this thread off topic since you started it. If you want to provoke religious debate don't start crying when you start loosing you troll.
sinrae_kinesti 06-16-07, 09:00 AM	do you seek to insult me? the only person who has placed a valid reason for a mortal race to have no concept of gods on this board is Thegans everyone else has given me examples of creatures who have mastery over their environment or saying that there are people who do not believe in higher powers which is irrelevant to the topic since even aetheists who loathe the idea of considering there might be a god know what a god is. therefore they have a concept of divinity. a species who is mastered of their environment would soon find themselves being worshiped as some sort of great spirit or other and would gain a concept of divinity by taking on a divine aspect. i do not want this board to become about evolution but i have no problem discussing evolution so i offered DwarfPcFan the oppurtunity to discuss this topic in an environment away from the board.
Rerecros 06-16-07, 09:19 AM	If you didn't want to start an off topic debate, then you shouldn't have said also on the evolution subject. it cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt so scientist who choose to believe in evolution must base this belief on eduicated guesses... and belief in a guess is faith so evolution is just as much a religion as christianity or Islam That is an inflammatory statement, and will cause a reaction. Just choose your words more carefully if you don't want to gain a reputation as a troll.
Toran_A_Sunder 06-16-07, 09:46 AM	If ya'll are gonna complain about the subject of the thread being dragged off topic, then drop the off-topic subject instead of arguing who started it. There, see how easy that was? In my opinion, it is certainly possible that a race can evolve without a concept of a higher power. Possible, but unlikely. However, it could make for a very interesting race if your friend really puts work into it. The notion of higher powers and what-not is a very right sided brain idea. Perhaps this particular race has an underdevolped creative center in their own brains. Or, more likely, the progenitor of the race was aware of the existence of deities and intentionally smothered that knowledge by isolating the race and completely stamping out any and all ability for the race to conceptualize higher powers. Or maybe the progenitor of the race had done something so heinous the gods cursed him and his descendants to never know the divine spark, and to walk forever in the world as a divine "dead zone." No, we as humans would have a difficult time understanding how this could come about because there is no record of homosapiens as being completely without some form of religion or spirituality. But remember that D&D is fantasy, and anything is possible in a realm where gods literally walk the earth and the universe can be shaped easily by any wizard or sorcerer with a mind to do so. I agree I find it hard to wrap my mind around a race evolving without any concept of the divine. Such a race would be very dull and uncreative...Think the Vogons from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. They would be boring, ugly, and would lack anything like music, art, theatre, poetry (which would be the third worst in the multiverse :D ). Their language would have few descriptive words and would not be colorful at all. It would be a very interesting race to roleplay, if not an interesting race to actually be. I actually like the idea. But this person's character would have to be the first of his kind who traveled outside the boundaries of his people's nation because anyone else would have brought back word of how the other races of the world believe in something called "gods" and have "music" and "poetry," etc. Yes native americans believe they are one with nature, and yet they have a concept of the divine, called the Great Spirit. Isolated tribes in South American and African jungles also have some form of belief in higher powers. But these are all humans. If you are going to think like a being that is not human, you have to stop thinking like a human.
sciborg2 06-16-07, 12:27 PM	Good points Toran ,though I have to contest: They would be boring, ugly, and would lack anything like music, art, theatre, poetry (which would be the third worst in the multiverse ). Their language would have few descriptive words and would not be colorful at all. It would be a very interesting race to roleplay, if not an interesting race to actually be. I think a race that doesn't experience awe might suffer from such defects. But awe, I believe, precedes a concept of divinity. Are you equating the two good sir? a species who is mastered of their environment would soon find themselves being worshiped as some sort of great spirit or other and would gain a concept of divinity by taking on a divine aspect. Not if they are the singular form of sentient life on their world and incapable of planar transport. A lot of this hinges on what is divinity? Is contact with some Other that feels close to us? Or merely submission to a greater power? A race of tyrants can claim to be gods and demand worship but their slaves may not really regard them as divine. Another thing to consider is that while human socieities have "gods" per se, the word is very overloaded. In Shinto we have the kami, those beings worthy of veneration, Native American spirits - as Gaiman points out in American gods - feel different than other gods. Worshippers of the god that arises from Judiac tradition is more a being who you give yourself wholly too. In many branches of Hinduism there are lesser gods who one worships to appease or gain favor and they lead us, in turn, to the Godhead which is Shiva/Krsna/Vishnu/Shakti...and perhaps in modern times equated with the Absolute Brahman. In Buddhism, one might even consider the gods wardens of the Illusion who may be allowed to attain salvation (Nirvana). Given it's D&D, one can find oneself on a much different "playing field" if you will, than in our world, and that can easily take us from one of the above concepts to worship of nothing or concentration on salvation without gods as intermediaries.
Gemstone 06-16-07, 12:55 PM	A race that believes that everyone is born equal, but can amass power, could potentially be at loss when trying to understand divinity. Divinity, at least for me, implies something not just far greater, but something Divine that can be experienced. Be it a holy light, a source of power that only divine beings can use etc. So, if they believe that everyone can acess anything, that could mean that they do not understand divinity. "What do you mean by divinity? is it somekind of power? Arcane magic at a grander scale? Ah, Epic magic"
Regularguy 06-16-07, 01:03 PM	an intelligent race with no concept of any sort of higher power.by higher power i mean tree spirits, ancestor spirits, gods (anything greater than them that they revere or possibly worship). While I agree with what's been said about it being entirely possibile for an intelligent race to believe there are no higher powers, I'm curious about a purely hypothetical situation: why would you care if your friend's race stopped ruling out tree spirits or ancestor spirits? What if they believed in those, but didn't think of 'em as being "greater than them"? What if they're, y'know, lower powers? I mean, think of all the grief everyone gives Aquaman about just being able to talk to fish. So, okay, most villages have some old coot who can talk to the spirits of the trees, or who can talk to the ghosts of your ancestors -- and, well, the trees, um, wish you'd start planting two for every one you chop down, and would maybe like to get watered more regularly in the meanwhile. And your dead grandmother can't affect events in the real world any longer, but wants to know why you haven't settled down with a nice girl yet. So, fine, there's a cleric or druid who can communicate with those spirits; he's not as impressive as the wizard who lives two towns over, or that adventurer with eerie psionic abilities who fought off the bandits a few weeks ago -- but, hey, the spirits he talks to aren't all that impressive either.
Elana 06-16-07, 01:18 PM	I don't particular see why such a race shouldn't be around. All it really implies is that their way of thinking is completely different from the human way. For a member of that race it is probably totally incomprehensible how anyone could believe in such a silly thing as a divine being. (And seriously, it is quite illogical to do so, so maybe even Vulcans would qualify as an example of such a race :) )
Derren S. 06-16-07, 03:00 PM	Has anybody mentioned the Athar yet? They're a sect from the Planescape setting that doesn't believe in the divinity of the gods. They claim that there is no inherent difference between a so-called deity and any other powerful outsider (such as an arch-fiend or slaad lord or arch celestial). *raises hand* But it seems that no one noticed.
Kesuk2k5 06-16-07, 03:58 PM	Trying to find human justification or rationale for an alien mindset is intentionally kicking a dead horse. As an example, you will never comprehend the philisophical links of mindflayers. You might be able to read a text explaining their reasoning but it will never click.
Regularguy 06-16-07, 05:24 PM	Trying to find human justification or rationale for an alien mindset is intentionally kicking a dead horse. As an example, you will never comprehend the philisophical links of mindflayers. You might be able to read a text explaining their reasoning but it will never click. Hmm. Actually, I wonder how many different types of "text explaining their reasoning" we could come up with? * A might-makes-right culture: they resolve specific disputes via trial by combat, within the constant displays-of-dominance backdrop of their pecking-order culture. Because while real-world atheists can imagine a mythological being without happening to believe in something they never see any evidence for, these folks can't readily conceive of an entity who, y'know, totally could show his strength but instead always hides himself away from everyone. I mean, I'm out there actually earning status and power and glory by standing ready to fight off all challengers, as part of a ruling elite who call the shots and do whatever we want -- and you're telling me there's a guy who can, but never actually does, kick anybody's ass, because he's not interested in making a name for himself? That's not just a concept they lack evidence for; it's a downright alien one they lack a concept for. * A utopian culture where everything is peace and plenty all the time, and folks are very happy. Primitive cultures in our world developed mythology because life sucked and things were beyond their control and everyone passionately wanted to believe powerful entities could make everything okay if we'd just figure out what they want us to do; atheists have no trouble existing in middle-class comfort these days, where famine is far off and disease is no mystery and they generally have a good time most of the time -- so what about a world where everyone's pretty much okay pretty much all the time for centuries? Would it even occur to them to ask whether there's a powerful entity out there that they've never seen and they've never seen any evidence of? Why would it interest 'em? * Coming back around to the text of the OP: "is this possible? how could a race not wonder where they came from?" Well, what about a race that wondered and found out? Yeah, they used some mighty magic and learned that one a thousand years ago, and it's been getting taught as a firsthand visual display you can watch in school ever since; back before then, maybe there was a concept of divinity -- but once the question was answered, generation after generation of impressionable kids grew up routinely knowing where they came from and instead took to wondering about all the other stuff, century after century after century. What else, as a thumbnail sketch of a people?
Toran_A_Sunder 06-16-07, 06:59 PM	I think a race that doesn't experience awe might suffer from such defects. But awe, I believe, precedes a concept of divinity. Are you equating the two good sir? I would say so. Again I bring you back to my example of the Vogons. If you take a creature and remove it's ability to be creative, to form new and unusual ideas, I'd say you also take away their ability to appreciate that ability in others. If it is impossible for me or my race to be creative and artistic, we wont recognize it as beauty or whatever in other races. There is no awe of soething greater than yourself. So yes, I would say that, were it me writing up this race, they would have abysmal charisma scores, would have no ability to create any art, music, poetry, etc. And they could not recognize such in others as beauty. Indeed, they would probably have no word for beauty. Their descriptive terms would be limited to shapes, sizes, general colors (no varying shades like vermillion or maroon for red), and other plain words. Then I may be thinking to deeply on the matter...
sciborg2 06-16-07, 08:07 PM	But you can appreciate something greater than yourself as an individual without assigning qualities to it that make it a sentient (or just living) being who you would worship. One can be in awe of the hurricane without thinking there are hurricane gods or somesuch. Same thing with looking at the sky and seeing the stars. You can be in awe of Chaos, and the magic that the whole universe could be created without any gods at all.
Regularguy 06-16-07, 09:49 PM	I would say so. Again I bring you back to my example of the Vogons. If you take a creature and remove it's ability to be creative, to form new and unusual ideas, I'd say you also take away their ability to appreciate that ability in others. If it is impossible for me or my race to be creative and artistic, we wont recognize it as beauty or whatever in other races. There is no awe of soething greater than yourself. So yes, I would say that, were it me writing up this race, they would have abysmal charisma scores, would have no ability to create any art, music, poetry, etc. I'm not really following this. Can't, say, Michelangelo still beautifully sculpt a man like David even if he's not interested in painting a God on the Sistine Chapel? And can't Leonardo da Vinci still create a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa even if he sees no reason to portray the Last Supper? Can't the Charge of the Light Brigade inspire the poetry of Tennyson like the legacy of Ozymandias inspired Shelley? Can't one write an opera about a Barber of Seville? Can't you build a ballet from little more than a vivid dream and a simple Nutcracker? Can't a play be about nothing more than Romeo and Juliet -- and can't that creation eventually spark a symphony in turn? Can't literature consist of imagining up a Sherlock Holmes or a Don Quixote, a Tom Sawyer or a Cyrano de Bergerac, a Scarlett O'Hara or a Captain Ahab, a Bruce Wayne or a James Bond?
Toran_A_Sunder 06-16-07, 10:33 PM	But you can appreciate something greater than yourself as an individual without assigning qualities to it that make it a sentient (or just living) being who you would worship. One can be in awe of the hurricane without thinking there are hurricane gods or somesuch. Same thing with looking at the sky and seeing the stars. You can be in awe of Chaos, and the magic that the whole universe could be created without any gods at all. But we are not talking about being in awe of a deity. We are talking about the idea that something akin to a deity being so alien to a people that they cannot comprehend it. As a human, I can only try to understand this pattern of thought as a human would. I'll break it down scientifically. The part of the brain that has to do with faith, religion, spirituality, is the right side of the brain. This is also the same side of the brain that governs art, music and similar things (both their creation and appreciation). If I think of an entire race of people who can't muster the creative independence to wonder why they exist, I automtically jump to the conclusion that someone who cannot (because of genetics) ask "why am I here?" is also someone who cannot create anything unique and...well...artsy. So I then assume this being who has no creative or imaginative bone in his body because his entire race cannot therefore appreciate anything that we, as humans, would consider beautiful and awe inspiring. But this is merely the world as I see it. This is by no means how I think this creature should be created. This is just how I would work it were it me. I'm not really following this. Can't, say, Michelangelo still beautifully sculpt a man like David even if he's not interested in painting a God on the Sistine Chapel? And can't Leonardo da Vinci still create a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa even if he sees no reason to portray the Last Supper? Can't the Charge of the Light Brigade inspire the poetry of Tennyson like the legacy of Ozymandias inspired Shelley? Can't one write an opera about a Barber of Seville? Can't you build a ballet from little more than a vivid dream and a simple Nutcracker? Can't a play be about nothing more than Romeo and Juliet -- and can't that creation eventually spark a symphony in turn? Can't literature consist of imagining up a Sherlock Holmes or a Don Quixote, a Tom Sawyer or a Cyrano de Bergerac, a Scarlett O'Hara or a Captain Ahab, a Bruce Wayne or a James Bond? Michelangelo sculpting David while having no interest in God is one thing. Thats not my point. Mikey, we can assume, would be aware of God's existence and the idea behind the divine. My point is that if Michelangelo were born, and had grown into a man, never having even thought that something like a god could exist, I assume he never asked "why am I here." And if Mikey never thought "why am I here" I would think he never thought "That sunset is beautiful" or "That piece of music moves me." The creation of the idea of the divine is the ultimate expression, and yet the most basic, of the right side of the brain. If the right side never asked the base question "Why am I here" and thus arrived at the inevitable conclusion "because God put me here," then it never would seek more out of life than just...to live. I tend to ramble, and when i do things get kind of muddled....I hope i cleared up a bit what I was trying to say. But let me repeat, this is not how it is, or even how it should be. Just how I view it.
Regularguy 06-16-07, 11:04 PM	Michelangelo sculpting David while having no interest in God is one thing. Thats not my point. Mikey, we can assume, would be aware of God's existence ... If the right side never asked the base question "Why am I here" and thus arrived at the inevitable conclusion "because God put me here," I'm closer to understanding your point now, but I'm not quite sure I've got you straight -- do you really mean that all people are aware of God's existence? And that, upon asking "Why am I here," it's inevitable to conclude that "God put me here"? After all, aren't there rather a lot of humans in general and artists in particular who aren't aware of God's existence and who don't conclude that God put them here? And aren't they, somehow, still able to appreciate the beauty of a sunset or be moved by music -- and all while creating unique and imaginative works of art? I of course agree with you that such atheists tend to conceive of, and then utterly reject, the idea of a deity; they ask why they're here, and eventually come up with some other answer entirely. But why insist that they experience awareness of that deity before inevitably concluding that such a deity exists? And why insist that some other race couldn't differ only slightly, in that they reach the same conclusions as our atheists and likewise fail to experience such awareness, and that they're just as appreciative of beauty and just as curious about why they're here -- only they don't stop along the way to conceive of an idea they then discard?
sooperspook 06-16-07, 11:19 PM	For some reason this race reminds me of that tribe Pratchett described in some of his books. The N'tui'tif; The only people to not have invented fire but borrowed it. :D
godbeepit 06-17-07, 12:04 AM	If I recall correctly the aboleths don't need to believe in any sort of divine power because they remember literally to before the dawn of time. Each aboleth would gain the memories and knowledge of an aboleth that died before it and therefore even if one died its knowledge was never lost. As such, they could theoretically remember a time before gods even created life on the planet (if such a time ever existed). However this probably won't give you any solution as you can say the gods created the aboleths (don't worry I see it coming all the way over here). So blah, it is theoretically possible if you let it be possible. Hence the theoretical (Zomg!). Oh, and this definitely supports the other people's conjectures of an alien mindset seeing as how aberrations are defined as aliens for the D&D setting itself. Moreover, Lords of Madness actually calls them creatures of an intelligence so alien and unrecognizable that attempting to understand them is the equivalent of mental suicide (my own wording... it goes something like that).
Toran_A_Sunder 06-17-07, 01:06 AM	I'm closer to understanding your point now, but I'm not quite sure I've got you straight -- do you really mean that all people are aware of God's existence? And that, upon asking "Why am I here," it's inevitable to conclude that "God put me here"? After all, aren't there rather a lot of humans in general and artists in particular who aren't aware of God's existence and who don't conclude that God put them here? And aren't they, somehow, still able to appreciate the beauty of a sunset or be moved by music -- and all while creating unique and imaginative works of art? I of course agree with you that such atheists tend to conceive of, and then utterly reject, the idea of a deity; they ask why they're here, and eventually come up with some other answer entirely. But why insist that they experience awareness of that deity before inevitably concluding that such a deity exists? And why insist that some other race couldn't differ only slightly, in that they reach the same conclusions as our atheists and likewise fail to experience such awareness, and that they're just as appreciative of beauty and just as curious about why they're here -- only they don't stop along the way to conceive of an idea they then discard? Honestly? Cus because of this thread, now I want to stat out Vogons for D&D :D Yes, my point is that inevitably, due to the existence of the right side of the brain and its influence over the whole, all (or most) creatures who ask the question "why am I here" will arrive at the conclusion "because something greater than me put me here." These artists/athiests you mention arent so much unaware of god's existence so much as they deny it. We're talking of a people to whom the notion of something "greater" than themselves is just as alien to them as the notion of such a race is alien to us. An athiest understands what you mean when you say "God," and denies he exists. This race doesn't think there is something greater than they. And I think of the question "why am I here" as one of the most basic questions man asked when they began to think about things other than food, shelter, and procreation. If a race never evolved enough in their right brain to ask that question, they probably never even evolved enough to care about a sunset, a flower, a note of music, or a painting. Following better?
sinrae_kinesti 06-17-07, 01:11 AM	quoted from wikipedia It is important to note that deities in the D&D game by and large have a real, provable, physical existence. They have distinct personalities, grant powers to their followers, and can speak, manifest, and otherwise show their true existence. Thus, the Athar do not deny the existence of deities. Rather, they dispute the claims of many of these deities to be able to teach the true meaning of existence to their followers, and protest the portrayal of deities as beyond mortal capacity or somehow of a greater category of being. Rather than believing Zeus doesn't exist, for instance, they simply believe that Zeus has achieved great personal power through the known methods existing in the game (such as by arcane or divine magic), and thus his claim to be "Lord of All Thunder and Lightning" is dubious. in order for the athar to dispute their claim of divinity they have to first understand what that divinity means and therefore have a concept of divinity
sinrae_kinesti 06-17-07, 01:39 AM	If a race were to have no creative center could they truly be considered sentient? even Data from star trek attempted to create new ideas or new music without having any emotion (not entirely sure what side of the brain controls emotions) what sort of reasoning power would they have if they could only spout out information they had heard prior and not conceptualise a new trail to be blazed? would you put them in a forest and them never wonder... whats over there? they could never discover fire on their own because they would never be able to think... burning forest make heat ... oog like heat... lets put it in the cave. wouldnt such a species literally be animals following a predesignated program because they cant come up with new ideas?
Rerecros 06-17-07, 03:52 AM	This hypothetical race can have a sort of inate solipism. If a tree falls in the forrest, and no one is there to hear it, it doesn't make a sound. Human perspection itslef is limited, for example we can only see 3 colors or combinations there of, there is light outside our narrow spectrum, we are simply incapable of persieving light beyond it without mechanical assistance. Another thing is self-limited perception, like living beings in beatlejuice "won't" see the dead. A very lovecraftian idea that we are a bunch of crazy monkeys on a meaningless hunk of rock in a chaotic infinte void that we'd go insane trying to understand. Maybe this race simply refuses to accept death, and whenever one of it's kind die, they simply act like she never existed.
Toran_A_Sunder 06-17-07, 11:20 AM	If a race were to have no creative center could they truly be considered sentient? even Data from star trek attempted to create new ideas or new music without having any emotion (not entirely sure what side of the brain controls emotions) what sort of reasoning power would they have if they could only spout out information they had heard prior and not conceptualise a new trail to be blazed? would you put them in a forest and them never wonder... whats over there? they could never discover fire on their own because they would never be able to think... burning forest make heat ... oog like heat... lets put it in the cave. wouldnt such a species literally be animals following a predesignated program because they cant come up with new ideas? I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this race has an over developed left brain to compensate for their underdeveloped right brain. The concepts of food, shelter, and procreation carry meaning to them, like animals, but like humans, the concepts of math, science, technology come like second nature. Also, they would understand that fire makes warmth and warmth is better than cold. They might also understand that fire makes tools, and tools help make jobs easier. But there is no joy in creating tools. An certainly there is no beauty. I don't know? Again, you are looking at it from a human persepctive, which is all we can do, because we are humans. You have to suspend your disbelief and say that, in a fantasy setting where anything is possible, this race could, and does in fact, exist. Trying to rationalise how this could happen, from either a scientific or religious point of view, is like smashing your head into a brick wall. It gives you something to do, but it wont get you far and in the end you'll just have a headache. I think it would be a very interesting race to role play. But there would be tons of restrictions. It couldn't use divine magic (thats a given) but it probably couldnt use arcane magic either as it doesnt have the creative capabilities to use magic. Who knows what they would be like? It would take a lot of work, but in the end I think it would be very interesting to see how they come out. However, a race like this is so alien to even races in D&D, I'd reserve its creation for a more sci-fi/space travel game than a fantasy one.
Gemstone 06-17-07, 11:47 AM	What about a hive? Why am I here: To serve the hive A deity: Somekind of hive mother?
Thanuir 06-17-07, 12:47 PM	Imagine a being so powerful that humans are to it as ants are to us. Imagine that it is the only one of its kind. A god, if you will. That thing might not understand divinity. In other words; to the God, there are no gods.
Thegans 06-17-07, 06:20 PM	But we are not talking about being in awe of a deity. We are talking about the idea that something akin to a deity being so alien to a people that they cannot comprehend it. As a human, I can only try to understand this pattern of thought as a human would. I'll break it down scientifically. The part of the brain that has to do with faith, religion, spirituality, is the right side of the brain. This is also the same side of the brain that governs art, music and similar things (both their creation and appreciation). If I think of an entire race of people who can't muster the creative independence to wonder why they exist, I automtically jump to the conclusion that someone who cannot (because of genetics) ask "why am I here?" is also someone who cannot create anything unique and...well...artsy. So I then assume this being who has no creative or imaginative bone in his body because his entire race cannot therefore appreciate anything that we, as humans, would consider beautiful and awe inspiring. But this is merely the world as I see it. This is by no means how I think this creature should be created. This is just how I would work it were it me. Michelangelo sculpting David while having no interest in God is one thing. Thats not my point. Mikey, we can assume, would be aware of God's existence and the idea behind the divine. My point is that if Michelangelo were born, and had grown into a man, never having even thought that something like a god could exist, I assume he never asked "why am I here." And if Mikey never thought "why am I here" I would think he never thought "That sunset is beautiful" or "That piece of music moves me." The creation of the idea of the divine is the ultimate expression, and yet the most basic, of the right side of the brain. If the right side never asked the base question "Why am I here" and thus arrived at the inevitable conclusion "because God put me here," then it never would seek more out of life than just...to live. I tend to ramble, and when i do things get kind of muddled....I hope i cleared up a bit what I was trying to say. But let me repeat, this is not how it is, or even how it should be. Just how I view it. I would have to argue against that. It could simply be that they arrived at a radically different first awnser. For example the beings I used in my example of a species with no concept of divinity the Vurul have a strange concept of time. For them the awnser would have probably been "I am here because I was here, I am here, and I will be here." If I get arround to stating the Vurul as I call them I would actually give them a bonus to morale and heightened emotional response because to them every event has always and will always happen, this could also lead to a hubris like pride. Not because of some destiny but simply because to the Vurul they already made every decision. For example a Vurul blacksmith might refuse to make anything other than masterwork items out of the special materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) In my opinion the concept of beauty and art is tied in with the concept of pride. The Vurul blacksmith in the example I mentioned is probably motivated by an unnatural pride, a belief that he would not have ever attempted to make a less than perfect item(remember the species that I made for the example believe that they already made every decision they will ever make endless times over and that they will make the same decision endless times over).
Regularguy 06-17-07, 09:01 PM	These artists/athiests you mention arent so much unaware of god's existence so much as they deny it. We're talking of a people to whom the notion of something "greater" than themselves is just as alien to them as the notion of such a race is alien to us ... I think of the question "why am I here" as one of the most basic questions man asked when they began to think about things other than food, shelter, and procreation. If a race never evolved enough in their right brain to ask that question, they probably never even evolved enough to care about a sunset, a flower, a note of music, or a painting. Following better? Well . . . no, I'm afraid not. First off, I simply disagree that atheists "aren't so much unaware of god's existence so much as they deny it". I think they are unaware of god's existence, and deny it. Yes, they go a step further than this hypothetical race in that they understand what you're talking about when rejecting the concept -- but, no, I don't think they're aware of a deity, and I don't know why you think they are. That said, I also disagree that an atheistic race can't ask "Why Am I Here". After all, our race's philosophers routinely ask that question and come up with a godless answer: Socrates did it, Marx did it, Sartre did it, Aristotle did it, Hume did it, Nietzsche did it -- the guys who think deeply on this subject have no trouble reaching all sorts of ungodly conclusions. I also also disagree about whether such people lack a "notion of something greater than themselves". I mean, look, it's Father's Day, right? I remember being a little kid, and pondering my dad: he could carry around stuff I couldn't even lift, and casually place it up on high shelves I couldn't reach; he could speak with me, sure, but he could also speak some whole other language too; and, what with my little sister getting born, I asked where babies came from, and he explained in shorthand that he'd made her and made me too, which was vaguely cool -- but, y'know, not as cool as the fact that he could swim. And if I told him I was hungry, he could then somehow make a grilled cheese sandwich! So that's the basic stuff of childhood, isn't it? There's this big parent who can break you in half if he feels like it, and who can give you things instead -- sometimes by building 'em right in front of you, sometimes by driving you to them in his car, and so on for all the other stuff you can't duplicate -- and, man, you just grow up knowing your parents are mighty entities who teach you things in between doling out punishments and rewards. So why can't you start with that, and gradually develop an appreciation for sunsets and music while learning about science and studying philosophy -- and, sure, always recall what it was like to be in awe of mysterious and powerful adults, and maybe still be impressed by animals that are stronger than you or can fly like you can't and so on and so forth, but without ever stopping to say, "Wait, isn't there also a god I've never seen, and never seen any evidence of?" Why couldn't they be fairly creative in other respects, just because they never happened to think of this one idea before disregarding it? I can picture a race with limited creativity, for example: say they're capable of making downright imaginative combinations of all the myriad things they come across in worldly experience, and maybe they're hard-wired to feel great satisfaction upon making discoveries about how things work and upon solving problems -- but amidst all their contemplation of what they see and hear and smell and taste, and amidst all their trial-and-error experiments regarding matters of fact, and amidst their reasoning about the emotions they feel first-hand, why can't they perceive beauty upon viewing something beautiful without saying, "Gosh, I wonder if there's an entity I've never seen any evidence for?" Oh, which brings me to sinrae's post: It is important to note that deities in the D&D game by and large have a real, provable, physical existence. They have distinct personalities, grant powers to their followers, and can speak, manifest, and otherwise show their true existence. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page, here: obviously the race in question wouldn't encounter deities who have a real, provable, physical existence. They don't show up and do things in front of people, nor do they grant powers to any followers. Yes, by and large deities in D&D do all of that -- but none of 'em ever yet did in front of this race.
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 09:29 PM	What about a culture totally devoted to the pursuit of bananas on Tuesday and Thursday, heights on the weekend, and community every other Wednesday? On the other days they act like ordinary humans. What about a culture devoted to the ideals of physical perfection and mental change? What about a culture that, rather then Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos, sees the competing ideals of Electricity, Fire, Cold, Acid, and Sonic? And they do not use the actual elements, they just see those as ideals. I'm not sure exactly how that would work out.
Toran_A_Sunder 06-17-07, 10:14 PM	All which leads me back to my original idea that perhaps this race's progenitor commited a crime so heinous that the gods literally blinded themselves to his existence as well as the existence of his descendants. They are blind to gods, to divinity, to divine magic, though they can still appreiate art, music, whatever. Again, I'm not saying that my theories on how this all would work out is how it should. Just how it makes sense to me. I really cant explain it better without just repeating myself.
sciborg2 06-17-07, 11:37 PM	I feel like this is an argument over semantics. I still believe a race has no need to think of "gods" while it can still have some kind of religion. I mean some sects of Buddhism could get rid of gods without messing up the core principles. One can also accept a force like the Tao or Brahman that is the primal energy that doesn't have a personality or conscious will...heck, some Hindus believe that about Brahman already...
Steahle 06-18-07, 03:07 AM	Sorry for taking so long to actually write in here, but I think I should. You see, I'm the one who is (more or less) responsable for starting this thread in the first place. Oh I didn't write it....but my character idea did 'inspire' it. So let me give a bit of back ground so people can agree or disagree with what I did. Basically, I created a world where there are indeed civilised races (human, elves, dwarves, etc.). There are several continents, one of which is about the size of Eur-Asia. Located on this large continent is an area more or less the size of Australia off to the south that is at a lower elevation than the land around it, this area is called the Wilder Lands. I set this area up as a more or less untouchable area beyond its fringes. How could this be if there are races that use magic and such...simple, the whole area is a Null Zone. What I mean by that is that magic, or supernatural abilities and spell-like affects, don't work too well. hmm..furhter explaination required. Those creatures and intelligent races not native to the area suffer a 'adaptation' phase whenever they enter the area. If they skirt the edges they are usually fine, bu thte deeper they go the worse it gets. The land itself has an effect similar to a Symbol of Spell Draining (on a massive scale), and is constantly in effect. However, before I get shouted down for this, its NOT permanent. I said it was an 'adaptation' phase...which means after a while the persons body and powers adjust to the effects. How I set it up is that this phase takes about 18 days...though the effects on non-inteligent magic items is permanent, UNTIL removed from the area. Once the transition is finished spells, spell-like abilities, etc. can be used once more....but only half as much. (i.e. if 6 spell slots, is now 3; if can be used 2/day can only be used 1/day...the effects are rounded down, so 1/2 becomes 0.) Why does this happen...I'm still meshing that out. But I am going to approch it as somesort of "sponge" that absorbs magic and transfers it somewhere else. (WHY it does it could be something of a quest...maybe its natural, or maybe its not, or it could be natural but is being amplified by unnatural means?) Anyways, because of this the "civilised" nations have had very little luck taming the land...because its home to a LOT of nasties that would be too vulnerable elsewhere. After all, people who are dependant on magic seen to be easy prey once they don't have it. But there are groups (yes, humans and the like) that are native to the area. The natives have a more tribal culture than anything, with the races mingling not only with each other but also inteligent non-humanoid races (fey, dragons, etc.). Now magic is a rare thing since its so hard to do, and so are spell-like abilities, and creatures that rely wholey upon magic cannot stay for long (the land absorbs MAGICAL ENERGY, not spells!!) so Gods don't really vist that often, if at all. But they do have some culture, art and such, but more on a family and extended-family basis of thinking. They have no concept of immortality (because they still have to fight and hunt to survive), and with little evidence of magic they have no idea what it really is. Okay...I think that should help for the most part. But really...I originally made my character so that she just didn't know what a God was. Of course going through and trying to have someone try and explain from ground zero what a god is to someone who (even by somewhat primative tribal standards) is "spacey" is what started this all. It was assummed that there were no gods when I did this, but the fact is they simply don't have any concept of what one is....and frankly don't really care all that much. (even if you did explain what a god was well enough for then to understand they wouldn't care because, well, its not like the gods have ever done anything for them before.) Sorry all...but I really like many of your insights. For those who posted, I hope you don't mind if I 'aquire' some extra ideas on how to make this work from you. :)
Steahle 06-18-07, 03:41 AM	Ack!! Just thought of an approach from another angle. Most of the arguements I've seen as to how dull these people are is steamed from the whole "left brain-right brain" arguement. Well here's a flying monkey wrench for you: would not a race or people who are overly developed 'right brained' not also be able to be unaware of what a god is? It takes a combination of both creativity and deductive reasoning to figure out the existance of god. Go ahead, try it. A person cannot explain what a god is without using BOTH side of the brain...you need imperical thought as well as creative imagination. If a person looks at a natural beuty, but cannot think logically, would they ever come to the concept that a higher being made it? Would they not merely see it as a natural beuty and appriciate it non the less than someone who knows what a god is? BWAHAHA!! By gum, I think I'm may just have somehting here! (Whoot! Whoot!)
Regularguy 06-18-07, 09:24 AM	but the fact is they simply don't have any concept of what one is....and frankly don't really care all that much. (even if you did explain what a god was well enough for then to understand they wouldn't care because, well, its not like the gods have ever done anything for them before.) See, I could sort of get behind something else in this regard: imagine someone came up right here in the real world and asked what the name of your translucent esroh is. "What? I don't understand." "An esroh is just like a horse, only with more legs." "Oh." "So what's the name of yours?" "I don't have one." "Really?" "No. I don't believe translucent horses even exist." "Regardless of legs?" "Quite." "But had you ever imagined a translucent horse before today?" "No. I didn't even disbelieve 'em; I never bothered to wonder." "Never?" "No. But now that you've explained the concept--" "Yes?" "--well, now I don't happen to believe they exist." "Because you've never seen one or even heard of one." "Right. I mean, I'm a fairly creative guy, but-- "--but you never happened to imagine up one of these." "Yeah. Let alone have one, or have named one." "Boy, I must look like an idiot, expecting that you had." "Well, yes, a bit, actually."
sinrae_kinesti 06-19-07, 03:21 AM	See, I could sort of get behind something else in this regard: imagine someone came up right here in the real world and asked what the name of your translucent esroh is. "What? I don't understand." "An esroh is just like a horse, only with more legs." "Oh." "So what's the name of yours?" "I don't have one." "Really?" "No. I don't believe translucent horses even exist." "Regardless of legs?" "Quite." "But had you ever imagined a translucent horse before today?" "No. I didn't even disbelieve 'em; I never bothered to wonder." "Never?" "No. But now that you've explained the concept--" "Yes?" "--well, now I don't happen to believe they exist." "Because you've never seen one or even heard of one." "Right. I mean, I'm a fairly creative guy, but-- "--but you never happened to imagine up one of these." "Yeah. Let alone have one, or have named one." "Boy, I must look like an idiot, expecting that you had." "Well, yes, a bit, actually." I could agree with this statement if i had asked if it were possible for a culture to have no concept of Zues. however a more accurate analogy. rather than transluscent horses would be do you have a concept of four legged animals with fur
Regularguy 06-19-07, 07:29 AM	I could agree with this statement if i had asked if it were possible for a culture to have no concept of Zues. however a more accurate analogy. rather than transluscent horses would be do you have a concept of four legged animals with fur Why? I've seen four-legged animals with fur. Our culture is chock full of people who daily see (and feel and smell and hear) four-legged animals with fur: various folks earn a living by performing surgery on 'em, others by training 'em, yet others by riding around on 'em, and others still by hunting a bunch of 'em for a freshly-killed meal. So of course I have a concept of them. I don't see deities in general or Zeus in particular scampering across tree branches -- and I don't swerve my car to avoid hitting either. And neither is on exhibit at the zoo, sure as they aren't out plowing fields in front of every passer-by. Instead, a god is like a translucent horse (in that I've never seen either) rather than like a four-legged animal with fur (in that I've routinely watched them sniff my luggage for bombs and drugs). One could, of course, combine the concepts of "translucent" and "horse" -- but before this week I'd never bothered to, nor had I then for some reason added the idea of "having more than four legs". Now, granted, if you wanted to imagine some culture which never saw any four-legged animals with fur, then, yes, you'd have a parallel. But then it'd make perfect sense for such folks to have no particular reason for combining the concepts of "four-legged" and "furry" and "animal" (nor to take the idea all that seriously upon having done so, as I now don't take seriously the idea of translucent horses with extra legs).
sinrae_kinesti 06-19-07, 09:47 AM	we are also talking about D&D where you very well might have to swerve your car to avoid hitting a god
Regularguy 06-19-07, 07:40 PM	we are also talking about D&D where you very well might have to swerve your car to avoid hitting a god No, we're not; we're talking about D&D, where the race in question has never needed to swerve to avoid hitting a god. Sure, most D&D races have actually seen (a) deities, or (b) people who bring the dead back to life by calling on deities, or whatever -- but this hypothetical race has never experienced anything of the sort, and so the question is whether they'd happen to imagine up the concept. By and large, that's not the case in D&D -- where you don't even need to imagine it up, because you had to swerve to avoid one last week.
Snarkbone 06-19-07, 08:11 PM	I could agree with this statement if i had asked if it were possible for a culture to have no concept of Zues. however a more accurate analogy. rather than transluscent horses would be do you have a concept of four legged animals with fur You keep adding to your original argument. If you truly want this question to get somewhere, you should state exactly what you mean. Although from what I gather, it is unlikely you'll get an real answer. Because what you really want is an answer to the question "Does every true statement have a proof?" (i.e. If it's true that such race exists, how can it?) And that is an open question in both theology and logic for thousands of years. I don't see that getting answered here. But to give you some thoughts: Firstly, you say they have no concept of higher power, and are in control, but are they the higher power? Is there anything that is doable that they can't do (if they invested time and resources)? Secondly, you confuse the words "concept" and "belief" with the word "faith". You can have a concept of a god, and you can believe one exists, but you don't have to have faith in him/her/it (i.e. buddists have concept and belief, but not faith; atheists have concept and faith but no belief). The only ways one can have no concept of higher power, is if one can't extrapolate. Two ways to have that, they are too dumb or they have no peers. In either case they would simply believe in themselves. Lastly, you original objection was "how can they not wonder where they came from". Well what if they do know, the proverbial answer to the ultimate question of life the universe and everything? They don't have to generate any new explanations religious or secular. An overarching reason for this debate can be summed up in the following analogy. A 2-dimensional being cannot fathom how 2 non-parallel lines in Eucledian geometry don't intersect, but for us the 3-dimensional beings it is obvious, one is simply higher. Same for us as 3D being, we can't fathom how Klein bottle doesn't self-intersect in 4D, yet it does not (can't fathom 4D all that well either, but our math tools are our higher power in this case, and they give us the answer, yet like the 2D beings we told 2 lines don't intersect, we can't wrap our heads around the answer). Now extend this observation to human nature, we need emotions to make decision, otherwise we just provide arguments continuously for all possibilities and never decide (find a video of a brain trauma patient that has suffered damage to the parts of the brain that control emotions, it is quite something). However what if there was a race that didn't need emotions to make decisions? It was never scared, never awed, never angry or happy. How can we have any idea how they would act and think and believe? We cannot understand them. In such state we would be disfunctional, they aren't, we don't "get" them. And just because you and I (and all of humanity, ever) can't understand how a race of a certain type can exist, doesn't mean it can't. We can't role play them here, and without one of them present, we will never know. But if you do have one standing in front of you, than that is a proof of existence right there, even if you can never understand how he can exist.
sciborg2 06-19-07, 10:25 PM	"Does every true statement have a proof?" No. Not according to the Incompleteness Theorem...wasn't that one Godel's?
sinrae_kinesti 06-20-07, 12:53 AM	well said good snarkbone. but you are incorrect when you say i have confused concept with faith or belief. i have said repeatedly that even aetheist who do not believe in any god still have a concept thereof and simply choose not to believe it.
Regularguy 06-20-07, 06:37 AM	well said good snarkbone. but you are incorrect when you say i have confused concept with faith or belief. i have said repeatedly that even aetheist who do not believe in any god still have a concept thereof and simply choose not to believe it. Well, atheists in our world, yes -- because other folks tell them about the concept pretty early on, and said atheist chooses not to believe it. But are you sure that folks who've never had anyone else present the idea to 'em couldn't lack belief by lacking the concept? That, again, "a deity" is like "a translucent horse with extra legs", in that you maybe wouldn't even think of it before specifically disbelieving it unless someone else helpfully brings it to your attention first? (I mean, sure, you could think it up and then disregard it, as with translucent horses -- but you may or may not do so.)
sinrae_kinesti 06-20-07, 07:01 AM	Well, atheists in our world, yes -- because other folks tell them about the concept pretty early on, and said atheist chooses not to believe it. But are you sure that folks who've never had anyone else present the idea to 'em couldn't lack belief by lacking the concept? That, again, "a deity" is like "a translucent horse with extra legs", in that you maybe wouldn't even think of it before specifically disbelieving it unless someone else helpfully brings it to your attention first? (I mean, sure, you could think it up and then disregard it, as with translucent horses -- but you may or may not do so.) in that case where did the idea of a god come from in the first place if not from human imagination? did god step down and tell early humans that he existed? because it seems to me thats where you are driving this bus. every culture on earth has a concept of divinity just as much as they have a concept of four legged furry animals and these concepts are just as diverse as the four legged critters. this is why i compared your analogy to Zues rather than divinity as a whole because a transluscent horse is a specific animal and Zues is a specific god.
Steahle 06-21-07, 06:40 AM	Well, one could argue that the reason people believe in, or have the concept of, God is so as to feel some comfort or sense of control over that which they cannot directly influence. But thats all beside the point. The crux is: "Would it be possible for there to be a culture or people(s) that do not have a concept of God?" So far evryone is argueing to either prove or disprove HOW such a culture or people could develop. Whether or not such a people would have any creativity, any intelligence, etc. Well, humans weren't at the top of the food chain when we thought of Gods, but what if you have a race that develops from the dominant predators? Would they have a concept of God since they have less to fear? (okay...TMQ). So far most have agreed that it IS possible for a culture or people to have no concept of a God. Cool. (Details are the death of life, and a waste of good coffee.) In case anyone is still wanting to argue the particulars, I leave you with this quandry. "If God(s) can do anything, and all things are possible for the to create, is it then impossible for them to make a person who doesn't know what a God is?" Yep...its the old "can god make a boulder to heavy for him to lift" arguement...BWAHA, I'm so evil sometimes, mostly when I'm awake.
Regularguy 06-21-07, 08:47 AM	in that case where did the idea of a god come from in the first place if not from human imagination? did god step down and tell early humans that he existed? because it seems to me thats where you are driving this bus. every culture on earth has a concept of divinity just as much as they have a concept of four legged furry animals and these concepts are just as diverse as the four legged critters. this is why i compared your analogy to Zues rather than divinity as a whole because a transluscent horse is a specific animal and Zues is a specific god. Well, look, I'm happy to drive this bus there. If you want to postulate that every culture on Earth has this concept because some god stepped down and manifested to 'em, and that this hypothetical culture never had such a visit -- then, sure, it's like why every culture on Earth has a concept of four-legged furry animals and why this hypothetical one doesn't. I'm fine with that. Having said that, it's also possible that (a) we're generally a bunch of greedy and selfish bastards with plenty of gullible people around, and (b) our cultures invariably give rise to one unscrupulous fella or another who comes up with the laziest con imaginable. "Give me stuff." "Er, no. I won't." "Oh, wait. Give me stuff or I'll hurt you." "I think I can beat you up, and take your stuff." "Good point. Okay, give me stuff or my dad will hurt you." "My dad is bigger than your dad." "Good point. Okay, give me stuff or Mister X will hurt you." "Who the heck is Mister X?" "Uh, you can't see him. But he can hurt anybody." "I'm scared." "But if you're nice to me, he'll be good to you." "Really? When?" "Um. After you die. That's also when he'd hurt you." "Gosh! I can't dispute any of that!" "So do what Mister X says." "But I don't know what that is!" "Oh, I'll relay it. I'm his priest." "So I tithe to you, or something?" "That's right." So if there's a race that's (a) nice, and (b) not so gullible, maybe there'd be no incentive to imagine up that con; maybe it'd be as useless as imagining up one translucent horse or another.
Snarkbone 06-21-07, 09:04 AM	No. Not according to the Incompleteness Theorem...wasn't that one Godel's? Not by a long shot. Godel's Incompleteness theorem states merely that: No decidable set of 1st order number theory sentences which are true in N has the property that every other sentence which is true in N can be derived from that set. In particular, the set of all sentences which are true in N is not decidable. Meaning that if you have a finite set of true expressions, you cannot deduce the truth of all expressions. No matter how big your set is, as long as it is finite. That doesn't cover the question of "Do all true things have a proof?" in any way. While there is no single set of true expressions from which we can deduce the truth of everything (this is Godel), every true statement might have its own set from which it can be deduced (this is an open question of whether all true things are provable). (in the above theorem decidable set means it's well defined and you can decide if something belongs to that set in finite amount of time)
sinrae_kinesti 06-21-07, 09:05 AM	if people were nice to one another all the time and never sought to gain an advantage over others i could see what your talking about. but this would only be so if there was no concept of malice, greed, wrath, or lust and these aspects never manifested. such a society would be a utopia which has been tried before though on earth has never succeded. but hey what the hell this is D&D so anything is possible this actually gives me some ideas for a campaign. ((or at least a side adventure))
Snarkbone 06-21-07, 09:21 AM	but hey what the hell this is D&D so anything is possible this actually gives me some ideas for a campaign. ((or at least a side adventure)) Actually now that I think about it, Modrons fit your requirements for such race perfectly, true they have what you might call a god, but it's simply the most intelligent and powerful of all Modrons (and grand majority of Modrons are not aware of his existence, and do not wonder about him or any of this touchy-feely fluff we were discussing here).
Toran_A_Sunder 06-21-07, 09:25 AM	I do agree with Sinrae that this thread has given me a ton of ideas for adventures and campaigns :D Again, in D&D anything is possible because reality is changeable through the will of mortals and immortals alike. Because there is magic/psionics/etc. inherent facts of reality are "easily" changed on a whim, and because the gods sometimes literally walk among the populace, anything can, and possibly will, happen. At this point it's easy to say that a race of beings who have no concept of the divine exists. It just does. Ok, cool. We got that far. I think we've spent to much time discussing how a race could come about. Simple. Some god somewhere decided to experiment and got all the other gods in on it (they were probably drunk or high) and BAM! Here is this race of creatures that, on a divine scale, are a dead zone. Well, that'd be such a vastly different race what else would be different about them? How does not having a concept of a god affect a people. Would they believe in an afterlife? If not, how would that effect how they live their lives. What else would they believe/not believe in? I ask because now I want to create this race (though I'm pretty set on modeling them after Vogons). I think I'm also going to create some sort of Utopia to fit into my campaign...woo!
sinrae_kinesti 06-21-07, 09:32 AM	i think Steahle has the right idea in giving them a limited idea of magic and since they have no concept of gods they should have no concept of alternate planes
Snarkbone 06-21-07, 12:27 PM	i think Steahle has the right idea in giving them a limited idea of magic and since they have no concept of gods they should have no concept of alternate planes Why is that? Alternate planes are not heaven in our sense of the word (it can be, but doesn't have to be, in fact mostly isn't in D&D). In this sense, they aren't "life after death planes", they are just other "planets" for all intents and purposes of D&D universe. At least that's how spelljammer treats them, especially in FR (and possibly other settings), where stars are portals to other planes. Existence of other planes is pretty trivial observation once they figure stars out.
Regularguy 06-21-07, 06:43 PM	Why is that? Alternate planes are not heaven in our sense of the word (it can be, but doesn't have to be, in fact mostly isn't in D&D). In this sense, they aren't "life after death planes", they are just other "planets" for all intents and purposes of D&D universe. At least that's how spelljammer treats them, especially in FR (and possibly other settings), where stars are portals to other planes. Existence of other planes is pretty trivial observation once they figure stars out. I'd actually say it's the other way around; I don't much see why they need to be limited magically other than with regard to alternate planes, as they could easily be home to a whole bunch of arcane spellcasters who toss around various impressive spell effects -- but if they've started popping in to visit other planes, they're presumably going to have long since bumped into folks who introduce them to the idea of religion. (I mean, yes, it's all well and good to go ethereal or astral without suddenly imagining up deities for some reason; they're maybe as unsuggestive as the ability to throw fireballs around or cast detect magic or whatever -- but as soon as you start meeting clerics who hail from other planes, you'll pretty much need to start choosing disbelief rather than simply lacking an idea of the concept.)
sciborg2 06-21-07, 07:22 PM	I think a race with an incredible number of spell-like abilities, or even just unlimited wish, might not see anything special about miracles...gods arise from scarcity, a combination of psychology and economics...
Adrez Nesnsid 06-23-07, 08:17 PM	a species who is mastered of their environment would soon find themselves being worshiped as some sort of great spirit or other and would gain a concept of divinity by taking on a divine aspect. Do you mean like some kind of Cargo Cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult)? I think that being being the focus of a cargo cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) would probably more cynical and jaded and disillusioned towards the concept of divinity.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-23-07, 08:30 PM	Why is that? Alternate planes are not heaven in our sense of the word (it can be, but doesn't have to be, in fact mostly isn't in D&D). In this sense, they aren't "life after death planes", they are just other "planets" for all intents and purposes of D&D universe. At least that's how spelljammer treats them, especially in FR (and possibly other settings), where stars are portals to other planes. Existence of other planes is pretty trivial observation once they figure stars out. :teach: Actually, the Spelljammer campaign setting treated each of the standard established Campaign Worlds (i.e. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, et cetera) as different Solar Systems, each encased in a "Crystal Sphere", outside of which, the other "material plane" campaign worlds floated in a sort of flammable fluid called "pholgiston", which they were protected from by their own crystal spheres. If you were capable of getting past the crystal spheres you could travel to any material plane world, but you COULD NOT reach the outer or inner (or transitive or demi-) planes by traveling through the pholgiston (and, in fact, outside of the crystal spheres (in the pholgistion), other planes were unreachable even by plane-hopping magic). Furthermore, as written, you could not use spelljamming to travel to alternate planar cosmologies because in the spelljammer setting (and most of the settings in 2e D&D in general) all of the material worlds/planes used the standard ("Planescape") cosmology. :teach:
Adrez Nesnsid 06-23-07, 08:47 PM	Michelangelo sculpting David while having no interest in God is one thing. Thats not my point. Mikey, we can assume, would be aware of God's existence and the idea behind the divine. My point is that if Michelangelo were born, and had grown into a man, never having even thought that something like a god could exist, I assume he never asked "why am I here." And if Mikey never thought "why am I here" I would think he never thought "That sunset is beautiful" or "That piece of music moves me." The creation of the idea of the divine is the ultimate expression, and yet the most basic, of the right side of the brain. If the right side never asked the base question "Why am I here" and thus arrived at the inevitable conclusion "because God put me here," then it never would seek more out of life than just...to live. While I agree that most people who are strongly religious never really "live" life, I disagree with the idea that god is a foregone conclusion.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-23-07, 08:52 PM	Actually now that I think about it, Modrons fit your requirements for such race perfectly, true they have what you might call a god, but it's simply the most intelligent and powerful of all Modrons (and grand majority of Modrons are not aware of his existence, and do not wonder about him or any of this touchy-feely fluff we were discussing here). Godd point! In fact, most modrons aren't even aware of any other modrons more than one rank above their own. (Monodrones, for an extreme example, are not only unaware of the existence of Primus, but are actually completely unaware of any of the heirarch moidrons at all, as well as any base base modrons above the duodrones.)
Giradius 06-23-07, 09:20 PM	If the right side never asked the base question "Why am I here" and thus arrived at the inevitable conclusion "because God put me here," then it never would seek more out of life than just...to live. I guess the creationists are really coming out of the woodwork. Inevitable conclusion I think is a giveaway. A race with no belief in a higher power could believe in a god in a deist way instead of a theist (which is the most intelligent of the 2 creationist or religious concepts), A highly intelligent race that believes in a theist personal deity that is omnipresent, omnipotent, all knowing , singing and dancing would not hold that belief for long as the evidence of such a gods absence would pile up (and technological and cultural sophistication would not be an issue because this evidence would be based on simple observation and common sense) and a more deist belief might take root (that a deity created the world/race and then left or takes no other interest in terrestrial affairs). I don’t agree with limiting magical ability or teaching one bit, in a fantasy setting magic and science are one in the same in principle, scientists and wizards each seek to understand the laws of the universe and each seeks ways to exploit them for their own benefit, so any culture or race that understands the universe sufficiently to disbelieve in a personal god has a certain degree of knowledge of how things work. Among ancient peoples some of the ones who came closest to atheism or deism was the Greeks, who were among the most technologically advanced of their time. I personally favour fantasy settings with as little divine content as possible, gods are not the most interesting thing in a setting, in my setting the gods didn’t create the world or any of the races and came quite late in the worlds development , life arose naturally through evolution and when the gods (who are more like interdimensional entrepreneurs) detected the newly developed sentience of life in the world they flocked like moths to a flame to stake their claim, the results of which was a war that ended with the very world itself destroying the physical forms of the gods and forever barring their essences from manifesting physically again, even clerics don’t wield divine magic given by the gods but a form of magic like that of the sorcerer that is inherent in themselves which the discarnate gods just prod a little.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-30-07, 09:18 PM	BUMP!!! :bump:
Adrez Nesnsid 10-09-07, 07:37 PM	:bump:
HamHam 10-10-07, 08:47 PM	I don't really think bumping this is a good idea. Still, I suppose I could throw something in: Actual non-belief in deities in a normal DnD world within the Great Wheel is... rather difficult to mentain. I mean, it's not that hard to go to the right demi-plane and find yourself a god. On the other hand, skepticism as to the actual nature of the divinity of divine powers, and what role over-deities and various ancient precursor beings and so forth seems fairly common among planars.
ArcTan 10-10-07, 10:30 PM	EDIT: Stupid new Gleemax system is glitching up just to make a fool of me.
yrogerg 10-10-07, 11:00 PM	:bump: STOP BUMPING FOUR MONTHS OLD THREADS WITHOUT CONTRIBUTING. If you think it's an actually interesting, topic, say something new on it. Otherwise, the thread died months ago. People lost interest and forgot about it. Randomly bumping threads isn't actually good form.
Zebppir 10-11-07, 08:52 PM	[QUOTE=DwarfPcfan;12736039]The works of clerics mean . Science is the anthesis of faith. QUOTE] I agree on everything except above science is merely us trying to understand our world around us and the fact that we can precieve only four dimensions we don't know how many more we can't percieve. sometimes science proves some parts of faith true Example:don't eat other people as that causes certain dieases Etc.
The_Cheeseman 10-12-07, 12:20 AM	A race with no concept of divinity? That's easy: humans. Bear with me, here. Personally, I think the whole idea of "god" is merely a very interesting psychological coping mechanism, and that as our real understanding of the universe expands, we will need to rely on it less and less until it is nothing more than mythology. Look at the Greek gods, or the Phaeronic gods, for example. Ask a Christian or Jew if they think that those cultures had a true understanding of divinity, and you'll probably hear, "No, they did not know the true god." I don't think there is a true god, since I don't believe in divinity at all, and therefore I don't think it is even possible to have a "concept of divinity" since its all made up, anyway. Can anyone have a true concept of glorfingles? I guess not, since I just mashed my keyboard to make that word up. However, if I fabricate a story about a supernatural entity called "glorfingle" and convince enough people that the story is true, suddenly they have a concept of what a glorfingle is. However, this concept can never really be "true" as it wasn't real to begin with. To put it another way, I don't believe there is any kind of divinity. Therefore, any concept I may have of it is inherently false. I can imagine 2+4=7 and that light is made of tiny cheese wedges, but that doesn't make those ideas any more valid. So, taking that into consideration, you could make the argument that I am an example of such a race. I evidently do not have a concept of divinity as you define it, for I don't think it even exists. Sure, I have heard of god, and I have spoken with people who have tried to explain their own views of god to me, but none of it ever registered as anything more than fanciful storytelling to me. I have heard of dragons and griffons, but I can never truly have a "concept" of dragons or griffons, because the definitions of those entities are subject to change and interpretation. I can only have my own opinion on what I think a dragon or a griffon is, which will be different than somebody else's opinion, and neither viewpoint is more valid than the other. I dunno if I have explained myself well, but what I am trying to get across is that there is a difference between having a name for something and actually "knowing" what it is. It is impossible for us to conceptualize a race with no concept of "God" because WE don't really have one, ourselves. How can you create something that doesn't know something that you don't know yourself? The word "divinity" means something different to everybody you discuss it with, and therefore you can never consider a viewpoint that won't include any kind of divinity, since the concept essentially encompasses an infinite number of possibilities. Phew... Well, whether I have made myself clear or not, I don't think I can do any better right now. ;)
yellowdingo 10-12-07, 08:58 AM	Ok folks here is a quandry i have come across. a friend of mine claims he has an intelligent race with no concept of any sort of higher power.by higher power i mean tree spirits, ancestor spirits, gods (anything greater than them that they revere or possibly worship). is this possible? how could a race not wonder where they came from? I suppose you could decide that your race is divine...but yes, a culture can arise that knows no god. They are called Commonwealths. The Earliest known Commonwealth is CATAL HUYUK (a village of sheep farmers) 9000BC-4000BC the Civilization of Neolithic People collapses after they get religion. Suddenly you go from "The earth rumbles...like my hungry belly" to "The Earth God is angry with us-we must flee."
yellowdingo 10-12-07, 09:24 AM	If you go and look at it, you will find that every instance of religion and worship of some divine force extends from the single fact that they all experienced some ecological or environmental disaster that traumatised their culture. People who think that they are in control of their world become people who think some other force shapes the world in which they live. NUTRITION has an inverse relationship to the rise of RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY. For Catal Huyuk, as the idea of Commonwealth gives way, there is the rise of Ancestor Worship, the transition to a Godess of Harvest and fertility, then the collapse of even that into an anarchy of "the Gods have forsaken us...what has gone wrong? Who do we blame?" Consider an enlightened civilization: Approximately seven hundred thousand years ago in Africa a people living in a cave plotted the movement of the sun across their cave opening. They scratched curved lines across an opening. They didnt have religion, they had enquiring minds that wanted real answers.