Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hooper 01-02-08, 02:59 PM	Okay, so I know Asmodeus isn't a diety (though I heard he has earned some divine ranks in 4.0 and I don't want to even consider that scaryness), but this was the best fitting board. The following quote is about Archdevils (lords of the nine) and their aspects and can be found on page 141 of Fiendish Codex 2 and it gridlocked our sessions last night because its meaning changed everything. Just what do the writers mean by the following bit of cryptic dialogue: "An archdevil cannot exist on the same plane as its aspect without the aspect" ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Okay, it can NOT exist on the same plane...without it? Does that mean they have to be holding hands or re-combined or wtf?
Kain_Darkwind 01-02-08, 03:59 PM	Okay, so I know Asmodeus isn't a diety (though I heard he has earned some divine ranks in 4.0 and I don't want to even consider that scaryness), but this was the best fitting board. The following quote is about Archdevils (lords of the nine) and their aspects and can be found on page 141 of Fiendish Codex 2 and it gridlocked our sessions last night because its meaning changed everything. Just what do the writers mean by the following bit of cryptic dialogue: "An archdevil cannot exist on the same plane as its aspect without the aspect" ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Okay, it can NOT exist on the same plane...without it? Does that mean they have to be holding hands or re-combined or wtf? If you'd read the entire sentence, you would be less confused. The archdevil and the aspect need to be together if they are on the same plane. Otherwise, the aspect vanishes. Basically, the archdevil can't use the aspect to sit in Dis while the other fights a war in Avernus. Together can mean whatever you need it to. Recombined, within 900 miles, on the same layer of the plane, line of sight, line of effect, whatever.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-02-08, 11:06 PM	In practical terms, a 4e Asmo having formal divine rank and a pre-4e Asmo with largely undefined but godlike power are indistinguishable. If anything, 4e Asmo with formal divine ranks has less power and is to me at least, a less interesting being.
sciborg3 01-02-08, 11:31 PM	To be fair, planar lords have never been well defined in D&D since perhaps 1e when gods and planar lords all had stats. 2e had varied opinions, even during Planescape's run (though not necessarily within Planescape) where demon lords and slaad lords had somewhat ridiculous stats whereas the Lords of Nine were thought to be stronger than gods. The General of Gehenna was never statted and though Anthraxus was this was when he wasn't the Oinoloth. Their power was hard to place, though their makers the baernoloth were rather weak officially. 3E has continued to confuse the issue with gods lacking epic ability but capable of smashing fiend lords - unless one uses the idea that the FC I & II stats are for aspects (this mention iirc was omitted in FCI). Yet even here it mentions that Asmo wants to be god which is interesting since he rules over the Lords of Nine and Dispater has a whole street of fledgling LE gods. Alternatively, Shemeska's Story Hour is an amazing take on more powerful baernoloth and Dice Freaks has a much more useful epic progression. I don't know if any story hours deal with the devils or demons exclusively, I think there is something on Enworld.
Dead_Weasel 01-07-08, 06:46 AM	To be fair, planar lords have never been well defined in D&D since perhaps 1e when gods and planar lords all had stats.Although I cannot claim to know a great deal about 1st Edition, I suspect that the procession of editions has broadened the avenues of attack which those entities' plot armor needs to protect against, making them increasingly complex - and therefore difficult to interpret. The sheer number of writers and quantity of time involved guarantees that the intended and actual power of abilities, and therefore the beings that possess them, will shift drastically and often unpredictably. As evidence I cite Pun-Pun, which is based primarily off a poorly-worded and arbitrary ability that appears exactly once, and transforms an otherwise unexceptional kobold into an infinite-number game. I hear that with Pazuzu's wish-granting the necessary level to do this has decreased to 1st, but I was not particularly interested, to be perfectly honest. Long story short: the more rules a game has, the harder it is to play. My fervent hope is that 4th Edition will not only have fewer rules, but express those rules more clearly than previous editions. If this turns out not to be the case - well, 3.5 will still exist.
sciborg3 01-07-08, 10:49 AM	I suspect it has to do with design decisions rather than complexity of rules. That said, the new cosmology seems to be giving planar lords their own godhood and divine realms - at least given Asmodeus. If everyone is on the same playing field (godhood), we don't have to worry about the difference between gods and planar lords though at times it makes for interesting discussion or gameplay.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-07-08, 12:06 PM	If everyone is on the same playing field (godhood), we don't have to worry about the difference between gods and planar lords though at times it makes for interesting discussion or gameplay. Over on Enworld, one designer was talking about Lolth, and when expressing some statements about her and other abyssal lords, they said that gods > demon lords, and were unaware that it had ever been otherwise (which is a frightening level of not having done your homework). This doesn't make me hopeful for the new edition.
sciborg3 01-07-08, 01:33 PM	But do you think that has ever been clearly defined? I honestly can't remember when it was clearly defined as to which was more powerful save (maybe) in 1e.
Kain_Darkwind 01-07-08, 06:38 PM	It was clarified in 1e, where Deities and Demigods clearly lists a few demon lords and archdevils as being lesser gods. Most greater gods and quite a few lesser gods were more 'combat powerful' than the planar lords though. It was also clarified in 3e, where Deities and Demigods stats clearly show that they are not only more powerful than BoVD/BoED/Fiendish Codexi stats, but overwhelmingly so. To the point where it would be absolute folly for one to imagine elsewise. Unfortunately for this view to be maintained, 2e threw a monkey wrench in things, by obscuring the level of power of gods and planars for most of it, and PS describing the planar lords as having broader and more sweeping powers than deities. (It should be noted that I prefer this approach.) But stats never really lived up to the idea that planars were more powerful. Guide to Hell has stats for the LotN and they are clearly less powerful than those of the 'Avatar of a greater god Asmodeus' Some demon lords still maintained their status as gods, but no stats were attached to more than their avatars, nor was there any comparison between those avatars and other non-godly demon lords.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-07-08, 07:16 PM	It was also clarified in 3e, where Deities and Demigods stats clearly show that they are not only more powerful than BoVD/BoED/Fiendish Codexi stats, but overwhelmingly so. To the point where it would be absolute folly for one to imagine elsewise. It's not nearly so clear cut as that. FC:I and FC:II only give avatar stats, and don't set a hard stat limit on the archfiends, while deities have very powerful but defined stats for their true forms. And FWIW, my take on Lolth in Dragon magazine was rather open about the difference between abyssal lords and then her as a god (with the advantages and disadvantages of being a god, but generally putting her as less powerful in certain respects).
ArcTan 01-07-08, 07:46 PM	In practical terms, a 4e Asmo having formal divine rank and a pre-4e Asmo with largely undefined but godlike power are indistinguishable. If anything, 4e Asmo with formal divine ranks has less power and is to me at least, a less interesting being. It depends on how "formal" 4e divine ranks actually are (I hope to God nowhere near as formal as the D&DG divine ranks, and I think they probably won't be, given how completely WotC has lately dropped the whole idea of D&DG stats).
Eldritch_Lord 01-07-08, 10:19 PM	I just hope they take the "aspect" approach with the 4e D&DG, if they have one (and I hope they won't have one); the "It has stats therefore I can kill it" sentiments I have seen on these and other boards ad nauseum are beginning to grate.
Kain_Darkwind 01-08-08, 12:01 AM	It depends on how "formal" 4e divine ranks actually are (I hope to God nowhere near as formal as the D&DG divine ranks, and I think they probably won't be, given how completely WotC has lately dropped the whole idea of D&DG stats). I do recall hearing that in 4e, it will be possible for epic characters to kill (or at least match) the gods and become gods. That would...in theory suggest that there is some sort of ruleset for deities, and that it can be adapted for players. Also, Orcus is in the 4e MM....I think it very likely that there will be hard stats for at least demon princes, if not for gods. It's not nearly so clear cut as that. FC:I and FC:II only give avatar stats, and don't set a hard stat limit on the archfiends, while deities have very powerful but defined stats for their true forms. And FWIW, my take on Lolth in Dragon magazine was rather open about the difference between abyssal lords and then her as a god (with the advantages and disadvantages of being a god, but generally putting her as less powerful in certain respects). I'm not quite familiar with FWIW. On the other hand, while FC 1&2 give avatar stats (assuming we go in good faith with the idea that 'aspect of' got dropped from FC1), the Demonomicon articles still place 'true stats' for the demon princes at CR 24-33. Any (non-Imhotep) god from DDg would still be easily able to kill Demogorgon...in fact, Kyuss from Age of Worms would probably be able to kill Demogorgon with no problems. It would seem that 3e's intent is that gods have the advantage of awesome and massive overpower, and the disadvantage of.....? ;)
sciborg3 01-08-08, 12:30 AM	I do recall hearing that in 4e, it will be possible for epic characters to kill (or at least match) the gods and become gods. This is with artifacts and such, not be sheer virtue of leveling up. At least that's what I recall from that interview. Really the problem with the whole status of planar lords and gods is the fact that planar lords are, in theory, in charge of at least one layer whereas gods were confined to realms in those layers. I always figured the realms were infinite once you got inside them (throwing all logic to the wind) and thus it was not so easy to say planar lords > gods. But of course if planar lords < gods, then why don't the gods just force the planar lords to do their bidding? And round and round it goes...
Amon_V 01-08-08, 12:53 AM	@Kain: Demogorgon is actually a poor choice for Planar Lord Vs a Deity: a Divine Rank 1 is immune to his Con damage and his Level Drain, his mind altering effects (so all of his gaze attacks). As presented, Imhotep might very well deck Demogorgon, as he goes faster than Big D does, recognizes his position faster than D does, and arguably has a better list of spells than D does. Big D can only hope to BANISH Imhotep in a fight, with his 'Item Mastery' that allows him to act like he has ranks in Use Magic Device. Indeed, Dispater (remember him? Someone had a contest running with that guy...) seems to be the strongest of the anti-deity Planar Lords, even more so when he's hanging out inside his Iron Tower of +20 Saving throws, SR and Armor Class. Any weapon that touches him turns to metal and rusts the second time it touches him--and its not subject to a reflex save; if it deals damage to him, its gone. Dispater can actually take down Hercules and Sobek; these guys are probably #2 and #3 of the weakest deities in the book. Anyway, I guess the simplest solution isn't to play 4th Ed. (Not planning on it myself). Otherwise, the DM needs to decide how the hierarchy goes. I personally interpret the system as going Mortals/Planar Lords and Low Rank Deities/High rank Deities with overlap between them as they become intense in power. Anyway,
Shemeska the Marauder 01-08-08, 01:10 AM	the Demonomicon articles still place 'true stats' for the demon princes at CR 24-33. Any (non-Imhotep) god from DDg would still be easily able to kill Demogorgon...in fact, Kyuss from Age of Worms would probably be able to kill Demogorgon with no problems. I think those stats were created at that CR largely to give you something to use to end a campaign with, not with an intent to establish that as a true form for all purposes, nor in coordination with deific stats where the flavor suggested an equivalence.
Kain_Darkwind 01-08-08, 01:49 AM	@Kain: Demogorgon is actually a poor choice for Planar Lord Vs a Deity: a Divine Rank 1 is immune to his Con damage and his Level Drain, his mind altering effects (so all of his gaze attacks). As presented, Imhotep might very well deck Demogorgon, as he goes faster than Big D does, recognizes his position faster than D does, and arguably has a better list of spells than D does. Big D can only hope to BANISH Imhotep in a fight, with his 'Item Mastery' that allows him to act like he has ranks in Use Magic Device. Indeed, Dispater (remember him? Someone had a contest running with that guy...) seems to be the strongest of the anti-deity Planar Lords, even more so when he's hanging out inside his Iron Tower of +20 Saving throws, SR and Armor Class. Any weapon that touches him turns to metal and rusts the second time it touches him--and its not subject to a reflex save; if it deals damage to him, its gone. Dispater can actually take down Hercules and Sobek; these guys are probably #2 and #3 of the weakest deities in the book. I get the feeling we are arguing the same thing? Even if the most powerful planar lord can only hurt the three weakest gods, that is still pretty solid mechanical evidence that planar rulers are weaker than gods. I am curious how you think Dispater will beat Hercules, even inside his tower. Herc uses a greatclub, so it isn't subject to Dispater's rusting touch. Herc has an attack bonus of +67, so even in the Iron Tower, where Dispater's AC is 64, he is going to definitely hit with his first attack, and only needs an 11 to hit with his last attack. With a +51 damage modifier, he's going to overcome Dispater's DR even on a poor roll. Also, while you say there is no Reflex save, the Fiendish Codex disagrees with you, metal weapons corrode immediately unless its bearer succeeds on a DC 36 reflex save. Herc has a +28 Ref modifier, he needs an 8 or better to use a metal (presumably silver) weapon on Dispater. In reverse, Dispater has an attack bonus beginning at +47, dipping to +32, with a +18 damage modifier. I realize the fight won't come down to just swinging at each other, but Herc can outdamage Dispater even before he rages. I don't think the fight is going to go favorably for the Lord of the Second. And if that's the best the the archfiends can manage.... It all comes down to the flavor suggesting that they are equal, but the mechanics clearly showing they are not.
Kain_Darkwind 01-08-08, 01:51 AM	I think those stats were created at that CR largely to give you something to use to end a campaign with, not with an intent to establish that as a true form for all purposes, nor in coordination with deific stats where the flavor suggested an equivalence. Possible. But the flavor also has 30th level Iggwilv counting demon princes as her slight superior. Iggwilv who traveled with Zagyg, who trapped demigods while still 'merely' mortal. Only one solution. Nerf gods.
sciborg3 01-08-08, 02:23 AM	Or have gods use planar lords as personal assistants and accountants.;)
Amon_V 01-08-08, 04:25 AM	I get the feeling we are arguing the same thing? Even if the most powerful planar lord can only hurt the three weakest gods, that is still pretty solid mechanical evidence that planar rulers are weaker than gods. I am curious how you think Dispater will beat Hercules, even inside his tower. Herc uses a greatclub, so it isn't subject to Dispater's rusting touch. Herc has an attack bonus of +67, so even in the Iron Tower, where Dispater's AC is 64, he is going to definitely hit with his first attack, and only needs an 11 to hit with his last attack. With a +51 damage modifier, he's going to overcome Dispater's DR even on a poor roll. Also, while you say there is no Reflex save, the Fiendish Codex disagrees with you, metal weapons corrode immediately unless its bearer succeeds on a DC 36 reflex save. Herc has a +28 Ref modifier, he needs an 8 or better to use a metal (presumably silver) weapon on Dispater. In reverse, Dispater has an attack bonus beginning at +47, dipping to +32, with a +18 damage modifier. I realize the fight won't come down to just swinging at each other, but Herc can outdamage Dispater even before he rages. I don't think the fight is going to go favorably for the Lord of the Second. And if that's the best the the archfiends can manage.... It all comes down to the flavor suggesting that they are equal, but the mechanics clearly showing they are not. The Matchup I've got is essentially a 3.0 Matchup--I don't have Fiendish Codex(es). Hercules is given a +3 Greatclub, which can't deal lethal damage through Dispaters Regeneration. (Needs +5) Dispater, on the other hand has 20/+7 Damage Reduction, so he goes through Herc's DR like a hot knife through butter. Dispater in Melee would be trolling for a tag against Herc's Club. Perhaps every bit as important, Dispater at +20 SR and +20 on Saving Throws enjoys a strong advantage against Herc. I'm unsure how 3.5 changed it, but I believe 3.0 supports my call of Dispater > Herc. And I'll I'm saying is that the overlap is a bit greater than is supposed. Half the problem is that the Planar Lords can't give a very good account of themselves when their nifty abilities are all negated by the DR 1 immunities. Dispater is obviously not the logical choice for 'strongest' planar lord, but his abilities are the ones that the Gods can't just simply ignore. I'd just assume that the Top Planar Lords > All Demigods for overlap, but I'm recognizing that Imhotep might actually do pretty well in the Abyss.
ripvanwormer 01-08-08, 08:58 PM	Possible. But the flavor also has 30th level Iggwilv counting demon princes as her slight superior. Iggwilv who traveled with Zagyg, who trapped demigods while still 'merely' mortal. I agree that however powerful Graz'zt is, Iggwilv has to be close to that level (at least, while on the Material Plane, since that's where Iggwilv bested him in a duel - at the considerable cost of burning out all of her powers for a time and having to flee to another world [probably a world of Greek mythology, since her caverns have a permanent portal leading there]). As for Zagig, keep in mind that: 1. Zagig trapped Iuz with the aid of Kelanen, Keoghtom, Murlynd, Heward, and the intermediate deity St. Cuthbert (which strikes me as considerable overkill given that Iuz was only barely a demigod at the time, and according to some sources might still have been mortal). He likely had aid with at least some of the other Pokégods he captured, too, if not all of them. 2. Castle Greyhawk has an obelisk-shaped artifact under it that nullifies all divine abilities. So, for example, when Olidammara broke into Zagig's castle, Zagig fought him as one mortal fighting another. This is still impressive, given Olidammara's levels, ability scores, and experience, but not as impressive as capturing an intermediate deity would have been. I've also read that in 4e, both demigods and demon lords should be in reach of 30th level characters. The game will be designed for those to be the foes that 1-30th level campaigns end with. FWIW = For What It's Worth.
Kihon 01-08-08, 11:04 PM	A bit off topic but... I got to give the fight to Herc. over Dis., even in his tower. As a Devil Lord he'd be very hard pressed to call for help - and who do you call? Asmo...help, please? Herc. on the other hand yells help and ZEUS (his father) shows up with half the pantheon? Say what you will, but I'll put Zeus and the Greek Pantheon up against any other non-god group in battle (and maybe even then in battle). The greater powers break the rules, and "DAD" would come to help as he even hears mortals, he surely hears his son (imo).
Shemeska the Marauder 01-09-08, 02:13 AM	A bit off topic but... I got to give the fight to Herc. over Dis., even in his tower. As a Devil Lord he'd be very hard pressed to call for help - and who do you call? Asmo...help, please? He has the resources of the entire layer of Dis at his beck and call, to say nothing of any potential support from the armies of the Dark 8 that aren't nominally beholden to the Lords of the 9 directly. Additionally, it seems likely that any deity living in Dis would be obligated to provide service in the event of an instance like Zeus going crazy and thinking there were no ramifications for invading Baator. So Zeus and his pantheon shows up in Dis, and seconds later he'll have his followers on the prime material potentially swamped by millions of fiends, and every other god in Baator in opposition to him because it's in their best interest to keep the landlord happy (for lack of a better term). It would be suicide once you consider all the forces a Lord of the 9 could call upon inside their own place of power. This assumes that Zeus and company could get Tiamat to just roll over like a scaly guard dog and let them into Dis from Avernus (to say nothing of Bel et al letting them waltz down the stairs, so to speak). I see it more likely that if Herc is in Baator and gets into trouble, Zeus would be more likely to be able to help by some hard bargaining through a proxy sitting down with a group of pit fiends from the Ministry of Immortal Affairs.
sciborg3 01-09-08, 02:18 AM	and seconds later he'll have his followers on the prime material potentially swamped by millions of fiends, and every other god in Baator in opposition to him because it's in their best interest to keep the landlord happy (for lack of a better term). Not sure about this. Attacking followers on the Prime invites celestial retribution, not to mention gods in the DDG do not derive power from worshippers. So in 3e this would be all for naught. But even thinking in terms of Planescape, Set and Levistus hated each other and engaged in conflict though iirc Set was on Levistus's "property". It might be that the gods upon Dis might simply not bother saving the guy who charges them rent...and never turns on the centralized AC. ;)
Kain_Darkwind 01-09-08, 04:12 AM	He has the resources of the entire layer of Dis at his beck and call, to say nothing of any potential support from the armies of the Dark 8 that aren't nominally beholden to the Lords of the 9 directly. Additionally, it seems likely that any deity living in Dis would be obligated to provide service in the event of an instance like Zeus going crazy and thinking there were no ramifications for invading Baator. So Zeus and his pantheon shows up in Dis, and seconds later he'll have his followers on the prime material potentially swamped by millions of fiends, and every other god in Baator in opposition to him because it's in their best interest to keep the landlord happy (for lack of a better term). It would be suicide once you consider all the forces a Lord of the 9 could call upon inside their own place of power. This assumes that Zeus and company could get Tiamat to just roll over like a scaly guard dog and let them into Dis from Avernus (to say nothing of Bel et al letting them waltz down the stairs, so to speak). I see it more likely that if Herc is in Baator and gets into trouble, Zeus would be more likely to be able to help by some hard bargaining through a proxy sitting down with a group of pit fiends from the Ministry of Immortal Affairs. See Shem, I agree that such is what should happen, but mechanics-wise, it just ain't so. Much like Mystra in El in Hell, who slew and slew millions of devils, Zeus and crew are going to triumph over anything short of another god intervening. The 'official' Dukes of Hell are 1-2 round speed bumps for medium powered deities, and bonus Cleave attempts for heavy hitters like Zeus. Any non DvR 0 or greater within 190 ft. of Zeus dies, no save. Including archdevils. Hades can designate any number of devils within 16 miles and snuff out all of their lives. Including archdevils. Any devil (including archdevils) struck by Ares must make a Fort save (DC 76 + 1d8) or die. Ares has Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave....the math gets ugly. Zeus, Hades, Hephaestus, Hera and Poseidon all have the instant kill ability, although not all have Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack to ensure maximum carnage. The lowest save DC of the group is DC 59 + 2d6 (Hera) Divine Shields and Blasts alone can lay waste to hundreds of devils while preventing the deities from taking a single scratch. Most deities get to go first thanks to Supreme Initiative. The list of abilities and overpowering mechanics goes on and on. ACs too high for even the best devils (or even advanced 54HD pit fiends) to hit. Attack bonuses that can be sacked for 20-50 points of additional damage without risking missing the best devil's AC. Autokills, fast healing, etc. Miracle and time stop at will as SLAs, DCs beginning at 45 and going up from there. By the book, Hades doesn't even have to leave his home plane to snuff Dispater and every devil within 16 miles of the Lord of the Second's Iron Tower. No save, just dead. Like I said, Shem, I agree with you that an Olympian attack on Hell should meet with serious failures. But it isn't going to happen with the mechanics as given, no matter how many mysterious spooky powers the archdevils might have. Unless those archdevils are gods or capable of dealing with divine immunity/mortal no-save abilities, they are as good as dead. Unless they huddle behind (far behind) Tiamat and other gods of Hell, hoping for the evil gods to save them, the Lords of the Nine cannot defend their realm from the Olympians or any other pantheon that chose to destroy them. They would be very hard pressed to deal with a single angry greater god, and even that is more likely to amount to running away via greater teleport making it not worth the god's trouble to pursue.
Amon_V 01-09-08, 05:01 AM	A bit off topic but... I got to give the fight to Herc. over Dis., even in his tower. As a Devil Lord he'd be very hard pressed to call for help - and who do you call? Asmo...help, please? Herc. on the other hand yells help and ZEUS (his father) shows up with half the pantheon? Say what you will, but I'll put Zeus and the Greek Pantheon up against any other non-god group in battle (and maybe even then in battle). The greater powers break the rules, and "DAD" would come to help as he even hears mortals, he surely hears his son (imo). The only saving grace for this one is that Zeus generally can't be counted upon for backup. He's too unreliable. In addition, since we are talking about Dispater here, I'm sure we know who the aggressor was. I think any fair portrayal of Dispater allows him some chance against a lesser deity (he must have all manner of tricks in the Iron Tower), Zeus is clearly overkill. DR 19 is always going to win, and this is assuming that Zeus really is a poorly built 20/20/10 Mix. Dispater might be able to survive a DR 6--but not DR 19. My solution, since I learned of this problem after 3.0 came out, is that killing Dispater or even Asmodeus doesn't fix the problem, it fixes the symptom. The very plane of Hell itself is much more than any Greater Deity can completeky destroy--Asmo is just its top dog. Kill Asmo, and Meph takes his place. Kill all Baatezu, and the General of Gehenna declares himself Marshal of Greater Gehenna. Oh, and give Planar Lords abilities that don't completely suck against gods.