Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 01-26-08, 02:06 AM	I was just daydreaming about my favorite character again, and I came up with an interesting new version of him (he wished himself divided into 100 equal selves, so I am only on #6 with this one minus his original appearance :D). So anyway, I started to imagine a what-if scenario where one of himselves reaches epic level, and ends up killing a yet unnamed demon lord in a layer of the abyss. Then since he is already immortal (the original and most of them were/are still obsessed with avoiding death) he decides to simply lay back on the demon lord's throne and rule over the place. My question is, could a normal/mortal PC rule over an entire layer of the abyss? Could he/she do it without becoming a demon themselves? Could they do it without actually being evil? If yes, could he/she also gain control over said layer as a normal abyssal lord would? Pointless fluff I created to get it written down. Not worth reading. The Grim(s), as I have named him/them, are usually very CN and simply care for their own eternal survival. They tend to be very indifferent towards good and evil, but choose to not hurt innocents. His (now their) philosophy is: "Hey, it's hard work for no real gain, and by hurting good people you tend to make lots of enemies. Baddies tend to already want to hurt everybody, so you'll have to deal with them anyways. I rather just lay back and forget the whole thing myself, but they never let me...". A few tend to have a thing for power, though (the latest one is looking to peacefully conquer himself a small kingdom and a harem), so he would probably enjoy the whole thing. Plus think of the bragging rights when #XX invites the entire clan over to have the next reunion on his own personal layer. :D
M-bark 01-26-08, 08:54 AM	I would think so. They'd have a harder time because of the differing alignments between them and their underlings (if there are any differences; unless the alignment of said underlings would change), but I think it's possible if they are powerful enough and make for very good leaders. The devils constantly try to take over the Abyss (or at least the first layer) in the Blood War, so I would deem it possible for a non-CE character to conquer/rule a layer.
james_gaines 01-26-08, 05:25 PM	I don't see any conceivable reason not, although he'd be subject to the background evil of the place and he might die of old age before getting the entire layer. Other than that, if he can oust the residents, I don't see why not.
Sorcere_the_Ultimate 01-26-08, 10:53 PM	im new to the forums and have been playin for a while. But i think the person could if he/she was properly prepared. but i think the above poster said he would be subjected to a lot of evil and would have to overcome that said evilness of the plain
Bloodsoul 01-27-08, 09:51 AM	Wasn't Orcus originally human? Though I think he became demonified in a different way... I can definitely see it happening in some games, but I'm wondering if the demons would respect or despise the human ruler, since, to a degree and depending on the nature of the human, it could be said that said human's vileness and depravity would've surpassed most demons inorder to commit such an act.
mmxbass 01-27-08, 10:32 AM	I'm wondering if the demons would respect or despise the human rulerThey already despise each other anyway. The human ruler would be no different.
Naderion 01-27-08, 10:43 AM	Orcus had died and become a Mane, but climbed up the ladder and now sits on the very top. But I think one can become an abyssal lord wthout having to die first. But I think the abyssal domains are simmilar to devine realms, so by becomming a domain lord, a mortal would become a fiend, half fiend, or fiendish creature in the process of bonding with the layer.
Ekko 01-27-08, 11:02 AM	That just gave me an idea. An order of paladins (or something similar) takes over a layer of the abyss, and forces the demons to fight crime, smite evil, etc. It could be a great plot hook, as the paladins would get angry that the PC's are off the demons (because the PC's don't know this).
ferreon 01-27-08, 11:45 AM	The Shackled City adventure path makes at least one of the party the ruler of a layer of the Abyss Occipitus, if anyone actually cares
M-bark 01-27-08, 01:16 PM	That just gave me an idea. An order of paladins (or something similar) takes over a layer of the abyss, and forces the demons to fight crime, smite evil, etc. It could be a great plot hook, as the paladins would get angry that the PC's are off the demons (because the PC's don't know this). That's actually a great idea! Mind if I use that sometime, too?
sciborg3 01-27-08, 03:24 PM	the theory as i remember it was that the layer itself must bond with a potential ruler, that the two exist in symbiosis. Whether this is true of others, say the Lords of Nine, seems less clear. In fact, in Planescape the distinction was made that the Lords of Nine seemed to *be* their layers.
Kain_Darkwind 01-27-08, 03:52 PM	The Shackled City adventure path makes at least one of the party the ruler of a layer of the Abyss And the Savage Tide adventure path allows a character to make an attempt to become the actual Prince of Demons if they slay Demogorgon. So I don't see any reason why a mortal epic character couldn't become a demon lord or prince.
celestialkin 01-27-08, 04:10 PM	And the Savage Tide adventure path allows a character to make an attempt to become the actual Prince of Demons if they slay Demogorgon. So I don't see any reason why a mortal epic character couldn't become a demon lord or prince. Someone actually told me about that last night, but I heard they made it pretty much impossible for you (the character) to succeed.
Kain_Darkwind 01-27-08, 08:18 PM	Someone actually told me about that last night, but I heard they made it pretty much impossible for you (the character) to succeed. You are rolling a 1d20 with other contenders to the throne. Including Orcus (+43), Graz'zt (+42), and Demogorgon's clone generals (+41) unless you killed them both during the adventure. Dagon is at +38, and it goes downhill from there. So, what do you get to add to your 1d20 roll to try and beat Orcus? Well, at +43, anything less than +24 is useless. You add your level (probably 20-21), your charisma modifier, and if you struck the killing blow on Demogorgon, you gain a +15 bonus. If you have a blood relation to Demogorgon, you gain a +5 bonus. If you had 10 Cha and killed Demogorgon, you are rolling probably 1d20+36 So to tie Orcus, you need a +7 Cha modifier and to have killed Demo. But it clearly can be done. It is no where near impossible.
cjhobbitbane 01-29-08, 09:09 PM	Well, it is the infinite layers of the abyss, so its not implausible that a powerful enough mage or some such could create a layer...but that would probably require as much as a year of R&D on a spell capable, or a really poweful wish, maybe even multiple wishes.
mmxbass 01-29-08, 09:58 PM	Adding one's own personal layer to the Abyss requires FAR more than a simple wish or miracle could provide. What is the material limit on a wish? Only something worth a few thousand (20?) GP in value at most? Not good enough. IMO anything short of epic magic or divine power simply won't cut it.
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 11:03 AM	Adding one's own personal layer to the Abyss requires FAR more than a simple wish or miracle could provide. What is the material limit on a wish? Only something worth a few thousand (20?) GP in value at most? Not good enough. IMO anything short of epic magic or divine power simply won't cut it. Non-epic beings have gained control of its layers before. I don't see why only epic+ can get them now.
Saedar 01-30-08, 11:17 AM	Non-epic beings have gained control of its layers before. I don't see why only epic+ can get them now. Certainly, but the point is that the layers that most people in-character and out are most familiar with are the big layers with big, mean guys ruling them. This becomes even moreso with dicefreaks demon lords. (I think it's dicefreaks....) Anyway, yes a non-epic character would PROBABLY be able to take control of a layer not held by a demon lord made of pure kick-your-:censored: . The problem arises in that you first must find this layer.
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 12:52 PM	Certainly, but the point is that the layers that most people in-character and out are most familiar with are the big layers with big, mean guys ruling them. This becomes even moreso with dicefreaks demon lords. (I think it's dicefreaks....) Really? Tell me more about this....dicefreaks. Anyway, yes a non-epic character would PROBABLY be able to take control of a layer not held by a demon lord made of pure kick-your-:censored: . The problem arises in that you first must find this layer. True. And survive the layer, even if it doesn't have a demon prince over it. And then somehow establish that connection to the layer that allows you to master it in the manner that a demon prince does. (As opposed to a demon lord, who rules it more akin to a king than a god) But it is possible. If Juiblex can control the layer at CR 19, then a PC can probably do so as well.
mmxbass 01-30-08, 01:44 PM	Non-epic beings have gained control of its layers before. I don't see why only epic+ can get them now.I didn't say anything about controlling a existing layer. I was responding only to the suggestion that someone might attempt to ADD a new layer using such paltry magic as a wish spell.
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 02:06 PM	I didn't say anything about controlling a existing layer. I was responding only to the suggestion that someone might attempt to ADD a new layer using such paltry magic as a wish spell. Considering that such paltry magic as the genesis spell (also 9th level) can create another plane of existence, I don't imagine that it is too much to expect a 9th level spell adding a layer to The Abyss.
M-bark 01-30-08, 02:26 PM	Considering that such paltry magic as the genesis spell (also 9th level) can create another plane of existence, I don't imagine that it is too much to expect a 9th level spell adding a layer to The Abyss. You must take into account, though, that the dimensions between a layer of a plane and the demiplane-ish thing created with genesis vary greatly. Genesis can create a space of up to, what, a globe with a radius of 180 feet? A layer of a plane typically is infinitely big, so there is an infinitely big difference.
Saedar 01-30-08, 04:05 PM	Really? Tell me more about this....dicefreaks. Blah to you sir... I need to study more :banghead: But seriously...Was it Dicefreaks that stat'ed out all the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes/Lords and whatnot in a way that makes them seem like actual threats to the multiverse rather than something that can arguably be smacked on by a low-end epic party?
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 04:48 PM	Blah to you sir... I need to study more :banghead: But seriously...Was it Dicefreaks that stat'ed out all the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes/Lords and whatnot in a way that makes them seem like actual threats to the multiverse rather than something that can arguably be smacked on by a low-end epic party? Dicefreaks did attempt to put the scale so that Dukes of Hell were threats to a high epic party, and that Lords of the Nine were on par with deities and probably beyond the ability of PCs to kill. Whether that was accomplished can be different, depending on whether one looks at CR these days or from those days. And the intent was/is to do that with demons as well, but Horrors of The Abyss has not been accomplished at this present moment. You must take into account, though, that the dimensions between a layer of a plane and the demiplane-ish thing created with genesis vary greatly. Genesis can create a space of up to, what, a globe with a radius of 180 feet? A layer of a plane typically is infinitely big, so there is an infinitely big difference. Actually, most famous layers of The Abyss are finite in size.
mmxbass 01-30-08, 06:58 PM	Considering that such paltry magic as the genesis spell (also 9th level) can create another plane of existence, I don't imagine that it is too much to expect a 9th level spell adding a layer to The Abyss.Keep in mind that the demiplane that gets created by genesis rests on the etherial (regardless of where your entry point is), a place that is very amenable to demiplane creation. The Abyss tends to be less cooperative.
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 08:43 PM	Keep in mind that the demiplane that gets created by genesis rests on the etherial (regardless of where your entry point is), a place that is very amenable to demiplane creation. The Abyss tends to be less cooperative. Actually, nothing about either plane suggests anything of the sort. The Ethereal is alterable morphic, which is the default. In fact, The Abyss is divinely morphic, which means it is more easily manipulated, not less. It just so happens that the genesis spell targets the ethereal for its creation. (Because many demiplanes exist in the ethereal) A variant of the spell could just as easily create one in The Abyss, and I wouldn't expect it to be an epic spell.
mmxbass 01-30-08, 10:28 PM	Yes except that the ethereal is a natural spot for demiplane formation already, the place is filled with demiplanes partly because, as the plane of pure potential, it is easy (relatively) to make demiplanes there. There is more to the structure of the plane than simply the morphic traits. Combine that with the fact that in the Abyss, the plane itself usually doesn't like you and actively tries to kill you and you end up with a situation where the plane itself doesn't WANT (in the Abyss' own vague form of sentience) to cooperate.
Kain_Darkwind 01-30-08, 11:27 PM	Yes except that the ethereal is a natural spot for demiplane formation already, the place is filled with demiplanes partly because, as the plane of pure potential, it is easy (relatively) to make demiplanes there. There is more to the structure of the plane than simply the morphic traits. And The Abyss is the plane where those with might have the total freedom to do as they please. I submit that a 9th level spell that opened a new layer of The Abyss would be no less balanced or feasible than genesis is currently. Combine that with the fact that in the Abyss, the plane itself usually doesn't like you and actively tries to kill you and you end up with a situation where the plane itself doesn't WANT (in the Abyss' own vague form of sentience) to cooperate. All determined entirely by the whims of the DM. The plane is capricious enough that either success or failure is equally as likely.
mmxbass 01-31-08, 09:31 AM	I submit that a 9th level spell that opened a new layer of The Abyss would be no less balanced or feasible than genesis is currently.I think this is totally, totally mistaken but it looks like nothing I say is going to convince you so I'm just going to drop the issue.
Kain_Darkwind 01-31-08, 10:18 AM	I think this is totally, totally mistaken but it looks like nothing I say is going to convince you so I'm just going to drop the issue. Not at all. I've frequently been convinced by well worded and well thought out arguments against my positions. Explain to me what balance issues would arise from this spell. Spells have never been my strongpoint, so I am always happy to listen to someone who knows more than I do.
mmxbass 01-31-08, 11:21 AM	Not at all. I've frequently been convinced by well worded and well thought out arguments against my positions. Explain to me what balance issues would arise from this spell. Spells have never been my strongpoint, so I am always happy to listen to someone who knows more than I do.OK well. Then here's my issue here. While the Abyss has an infinitude of chaotic layers, they still generally have a structure. Some layers are "adjacent" to others and other layers are generally considered to have a connective structure of some sort. That being said, layers have been said to split or merge (I don't know if an actual adventure has ever had this happen but the Planescape material (Don't remember offhand if the Abyss is in Planes of Conflice (Lower) or Planes of Chaos) seems to recognize it as happening). My issue with the mechanics of creating a layer on the Abyss is this: depending on how (or where) you perform a spell, it may offset the relational structure between other layers. The problem question to ask is if it's even meaningful to add one to infinity. Let's assume that one is not going to be able to add a Celestia-type of layer to the Abyss. A layer one might add to the abyss is generally going to have a chaotic evil slant to it. That being said, there is already going to be a infinite number of layers somewhere in the infinity of the Abyss that exactly match anything a normal spell would be capable of producing (again assuming that Lawful good layers either won't be made or won't last long). Is is meaningful to say you're "inserting" a layer somewhere? I would argue that it is only meaningful to "insert" a layer if your new layer is near or between someone else's layers. Since I think offsetting someone else's kingdom is beyond the scope of a 9th level spell. The spell would generally tend to only create "middle of nowhere" type of layers that aren't anywhere "near" major realms. That being said, how would you even know if the spell actually made the new layer? Perhaps it simply sent you to one of an infinite number of layers that already happen to match your exact specification. There would be no meaningful distinction. Given that there is no distinction, you are essentially left with a spell that is the equivalent of a very very specific form of plane shifting and teleportation.
Kain_Darkwind 01-31-08, 04:16 PM	That being said, how would you even know if the spell actually made the new layer? Perhaps it simply sent you to one of an infinite number of layers that already happen to match your exact specification. There would be no meaningful distinction. Given that there is no distinction, you are essentially left with a spell that is the equivalent of a very very specific form of plane shifting and teleportation. True. And given that there is no meaningful distinction either way, who's to say that either one is what is 'really' happening? And even if the spellcasters are being tricked by The Abyss into thinking they are adding to its infinity, when they are really just discovering new previously unknown layers...so? How do you know that your summon spell really takes something from the Outer Planes and doesn't just recreate a temporary replica of that creature? How do you know that your fireball doesn't just tear open a momentary hole to the elemental plane of Fire? How the spell accomplishes something just doesn't seem as important to me as what it accomplishes.
deathbane 01-31-08, 04:37 PM	True. And given that there is no meaningful distinction either way, who's to say that either one is what is 'really' happening? And even if the spellcasters are being tricked by The Abyss into thinking they are adding to its infinity, when they are really just discovering new previously unknown layers...so? How do you know that your summon spell really takes something from the Outer Planes and doesn't just recreate a temporary replica of that creature? How do you know that your fireball doesn't just tear open a momentary hole to the elemental plane of Fire? How the spell accomplishes something just doesn't seem as important to me as what it accomplishes. So your goal is not to create a layer, so much as to control a layer, which I think is more feasible, but still not anywhere near easy.
deathbane 01-31-08, 04:41 PM	But it is possible. If Juiblex can control the layer at CR 19, then a PC can probably do so as well. Those weaklings in the FC 1 and @ are aspects, not the real thing. Says so in one of the books in FC 1 or 2. I don't even use the book of vile darkness versions as the real one. They are just greater aspects(for me).
mmxbass 01-31-08, 05:29 PM	How do you know that your fireball doesn't just tear open a momentary hole to the elemental plane of Fire?I know because a specialist Evoker wizard with prohibited conjuration (the standard choice) would have a bonus on fireball specifically because fireball is an evocation effect and not a portal. If fireball were a momentary portal similar to Gate, then it would be a conjuration effect. The means matter because an evoker specialist in the example is not even capable of producing conjuration magic in normal circumstances.
Kain_Darkwind 01-31-08, 10:45 PM	Those weaklings in the FC 1 and @ are aspects, not the real thing. Says so in one of the books in FC 1 or 2. I don't even use the book of vile darkness versions as the real one. They are just greater aspects(for me). Say it ain't so (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=0)! Regardless of the intent of Mona and Jacobs in the FC1, the editors clearly and purposely removed the portion describing these versions as aspects. The very explanation given was that the 'overpowered' versions in the BoVD were useless for campaigns. In the FC2, the archdevils were indeed aspects, and they were explained to be such and identified as such. I know because a specialist Evoker wizard with prohibited conjuration (the standard choice) would have a bonus on fireball specifically because fireball is an evocation effect and not a portal. If fireball were a momentary portal similar to Gate, then it would be a conjuration effect. The means matter because an evoker specialist in the example is not even capable of producing conjuration magic in normal circumstances. Because that's the way you determined that school of magic to work in your world. But evocation could just as easily open up momentary portals or tears to the energy and elemental planes. The origin of the effect is meaningless on the balance of the effect though. It doesn't matter if fireball comes from the Elemental Plane of Fire, if it blasts from your finger or from your eyeballs, or if it is really a ball of batcrap and sulfur that you lit on fire and chucked at your foe. Fireball is balanced (or not balanced) because it deals 1d6/level fire damage (max 10d6) in a 20 foot radius at long range with a DC of 13 + Int modifier. Thus the balance of genesis is not that it creates planes on the Ethereal and not in The Abyss, but that it merely creates a demiplane. Whether your 9th level spell tears open an undiscovered layer or makes a brand new one isn't going to matter in the long run of things. Just like wish, which could make money from no where or take it from a rich merchant depending on the whims of the DM, this layer creating spell (let's call it Malachi) could accomplish its goal in a variety of ways.
deathbane 01-31-08, 11:16 PM	Say it ain't so (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=0)! Regardless of the intent of Mona and Jacobs in the FC1, the editors clearly and purposely removed the portion describing these versions as aspects. The very explanation given was that the 'overpowered' versions in the BoVD were useless for campaigns. In the FC2, the archdevils were indeed aspects, and they were explained to be such and identified as such. The aspects can also serve as the originals in lower leveled campaigns for those who want to fight demon/devil lords without going epic. That is the reason a demon lord is weaker than a pit fiend or balor, but in a normal campaign there is no realistic way a 19 CR creature, unique or not, will be considered a demon lord when there are so many other creatures that can tak him/her that most likely have no real concerns about loyalty. Because that's the way you determined that school of magic to work in your world.....[quote] Actually it is that way because WoTC said so, and you can house rule it to be different in your world, but when debating it is common knowledge that debating house rules is pointless since everyone plays the game a little differently, and RAW(even when it is broken) is the yardstick by which things are measured. The power of the archivist,RAW vs RAI(depending on who you ask), is one such example. It(schools) also matters for feats, such as spell focus. [QUOTE]Thus the balance of genesis is not that it creates planes on the Ethereal and not in The Abyss, but that it merely creates a demiplane. Whether your 9th level spell tears open an undiscovered layer or makes a brand new one isn't going to matter in the long run of things. Just like wish, which could make money from no where or take it from a rich merchant depending on the whims of the DM, this layer creating spell (let's call it Malachi) could accomplish its goal in a variety of ways. As much as I want to argue against this I can't see why a modified version can't create a small layer in the Abyss, but that also depends on if the DM considers the Abyss to be sentient on some level, in which case epic spells may not even work. Even if the demiplane is created that does not mean it will stay created, but back to the OP's question to which I will have to say, it depends on which layer is supposed to be getting conquered, and who this mortal is, along with how his/her DM runs the game. In my game it won't happen, but I can't say it is 100% unreasonable.
Kain_Darkwind 02-01-08, 10:48 AM	The aspects can also serve as the originals in lower leveled campaigns for those who want to fight demon/devil lords without going epic. That is the reason a demon lord is weaker than a pit fiend or balor, but in a normal campaign there is no realistic way a 19 CR creature, unique or not, will be considered a demon lord when there are so many other creatures that can tak him/her that most likely have no real concerns about loyalty. Clearly we absolutely agree on what should be done. But I posit that WotC's intent was to bring down the power level of the actual beings into the 'levels actual gamers play'. Thus CR 19 Juiblex is actually Juiblex. Because that's the way you determined that school of magic to work in your world..... Actually it is that way because WoTC said so, and you can house rule it to be different in your world, but when debating it is common knowledge that debating house rules is pointless since everyone plays the game a little differently, and RAW(even when it is broken) is the yardstick by which things are measured. The power of the archivist,RAW vs RAI(depending on who you ask), is one such example. It(schools) also matters for feats, such as spell focus. There is absolutely nothing about the schools of magic that said a fireball can't tear a small temporary hole to the elemental plane of Fire. "Manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end." Unseen....like the elemental plane of fire.
deathbane 02-01-08, 01:22 PM	There is absolutely nothing about the schools of magic that said a fireball can't tear a small temporary hole to the elemental plane of Fire. "Manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end." Unseen....like the elemental plane of fire. Actually the qoute is "...manipulate energy or create something from nothing...". Tearing a hole into the plane of fire to get fire would fall under conjuration"..bring creatures or materials to the caster", since he would be getting it from somewhere else and not manipulating it or creating it. edit: the quote on page 173 does say .."untapped source...In effect they create something out of nothing." Pulling existing energy from the plane of X does not agree with something from nothing. In order for it to work the way you explained it would have to conjuration and evocation, since only conjuration can access other planes "...Conjuration brings manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you..."
deathbane 02-01-08, 01:33 PM	Clearly we absolutely agree on what should be done. But I posit that WotC's intent was to bring down the power level of the actual beings into the 'levels actual gamers play'. Thus CR 19 Juiblex is actually Juiblex. So you are saying a Lord of the Nine's aspect is equal/greater than a real demon lord? I think in the FC 1 their intent was to make them defeatable without epic levels, but they saw that people were not happy with that nonsense, so then they said the archfiends in the books were only aspects.
Kain_Darkwind 02-01-08, 02:07 PM	So you are saying a Lord of the Nine's aspect is equal/greater than a real demon lord? I think in the FC 1 their intent was to make them defeatable without epic levels, but they saw that people were not happy with that nonsense, so then they said the archfiends in the books were only aspects. I'm saying that because WotC couldn't agree on things, their official stats have aspects of archdevils as more powerful than actual demon princes. The remarks in the FC2 made no statement about the stats in the FC1, and they certainly had the opportunity to do so after the hell was raised. The aspect label was intended to go on the demon princes by the authors, and removed by WotC editors. We have quotes from the authors mentioning this was the case. The removal was an intentional and deliberate move. It isn't the only time that demons and devils haven't been balanced against each other. Compare the HD and CR of the real Dragon magazine's Demonomicon demon princes to the HD and CR of the fake Dragon online's Dukes of Hell. Dukes of Hell are as challenging as many of the demon princes, and one of them has more HD than even Demogorgon. As for the schools of magic, half of the time spell mechanics and descriptions don't mesh with WotC's own flavor for them. And fireball was a singular example. Care to tackle the summon one?
deathbane 02-01-08, 08:37 PM	I'm saying that because WotC couldn't agree on things, their official stats have aspects of archdevils as more powerful than actual demon princes. The remarks in the FC2 made no statement about the stats in the FC1, and they certainly had the opportunity to do so after the hell was raised. The aspect label was intended to go on the demon princes by the authors, and removed by WotC editors. We have quotes from the authors mentioning this was the case. The removal was an intentional and deliberate move. I am saying there is no way they would make them unbalanced like that. What simply happened was people complained about the nonsense so they corrected it by saying aspects in FC2. What they should have done was said we made a mistake, but considering all the questions about, open to interpretation rules, that are still argued on the boards we know that WotC saying they messed up is about as likely as an ice cube on the surface of the sun. That way if someone says WoTC admitted they made mistake, they can say it is left up to the DM, and the power level of his campaign, and by saying aspects they are just providing another option. They don't have to say we messed up, but at the same time the mistake is covered. It isn't the only time that demons and devils haven't been balanced against each other. Compare the HD and CR of the real Dragon magazine's Demonomicon demon princes to the HD and CR of the fake Dragon online's Dukes of Hell. Dukes of Hell are as challenging as many of the demon princes, and one of them has more HD than even Demogorgon. I noticed that, and a lot of that has to do with different authors writing on similar subjects. What they should do is say authors' 1, 2, and 3 this is your area, and when things cross between two teams then the two teams should meet. It will take longer for a book to get out, but discussions like this won't be necessary. As for the schools of magic, half of the time spell mechanics and descriptions don't mesh with WotC's own flavor for them. And fireball was a singular example. Care to tackle the summon one? That may be true but the description, for fireball match, and rules supersede fluff anyway. If the fluff does not match the school, but the effect of the spell does then change the fluff. I personally beleive the Orb of X spells should be evocation, and not conjuration, and mage armor should be abjuration. What is wrong with summon? It is a manifestation of a creature which is cover on page 172, which makes sense because summoned creatures don't die when they lose all their HP like called ones do.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 02-01-08, 10:19 PM	"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." Friedrich Nietzsche The immortal, having proven victorious in his struggle, needs to be careful, especially if he was of a previously non-evil alignment. The corruption of the Abyss can be as insidious as the plotting of a devil. The demon lord who he overthrew could have ruled for millennia. The same demon lord, history teaches us. An unbroken temporal line. Who's to say the demon lord was in fact himself? Could the demon lord have taken on the traits of previous demon lords who held that throne? Could that demon lord have become the previous demon lords? Who's to say that the immortal character does not also take on the aspects and personality of the first demon lord in that abyssal layer, becoming the first demon lord again in an endless (re)cycle?...
Prime32 02-03-08, 09:33 AM	Sure, Savage Tide makes it possible for you take over from Demogorgon, but you left something out. Once you've been in power for a while (assuming you haven't been assassinated) you must start making Will saves or grow a second head of evil alignment... :eek:
gravenhurst 02-10-08, 11:41 PM	I was just daydreaming about my favorite character again, and I came up with an interesting new version of him (he wished himself divided into 100 equal selves, so I am only on #6 with this one minus his original appearance :D). So anyway, I started to imagine a what-if scenario where one of himselves reaches epic level, and ends up killing a yet unnamed demon lord in a layer of the abyss. Then since he is already immortal (the original and most of them were/are still obsessed with avoiding death) he decides to simply lay back on the demon lord's throne and rule over the place. My question is, could a normal/mortal PC rule over an entire layer of the abyss? Could he/she do it without becoming a demon themselves? Could they do it without actually being evil? If yes, could he/she also gain control over said layer as a normal abyssal lord would? Pointless fluff I created to get it written down. Not worth reading. The Grim(s), as I have named him/them, are usually very CN and simply care for their own eternal survival. They tend to be very indifferent towards good and evil, but choose to not hurt innocents. His (now their) philosophy is: "Hey, it's hard work for no real gain, and by hurting good people you tend to make lots of enemies. Baddies tend to already want to hurt everybody, so you'll have to deal with them anyways. I rather just lay back and forget the whole thing myself, but they never let me...". A few tend to have a thing for power, though (the latest one is looking to peacefully conquer himself a small kingdom and a harem), so he would probably enjoy the whole thing. Plus think of the bragging rights when #XX invites the entire clan over to have the next reunion on his own personal layer. :D No because it is reserved for the race of the abyss. D&D has made Hell and the Abyss too plane material like so as to make it in-hospitable for a player character to adventure too and survive. But in reality (in fantasy terms) it shouldn't happen unless the planes controller wishes it so. Even then, it is too fantastical. But it is a game and when players are bored of their own material plane (or the DM) fantastical will keep them interested in gaming longer in your world. I believe the Abyss or Hell should be reserved only for punishment or to torture the players into appreciating their own world of existence. Not even Iggwilv (from Greyhawk) can control a layer of the Abyss, possibly a demi-plane, but not an actual layer. Not even the controller of a plane of existence can rule the whole infinite layer, so how could a mere mortal? So if a mortal killed a Devil Lord or a Demon Prince a mortal is not made to sustain herself on a layer. Even then, the mortal ruler would be set upon by a horde of teleporting, summoning their own kind, immune to all sorts attacks, kind of monsters. Forget about it. The plane is morphed from the fabric of its alignment. So a Demon Prince is CE. Chances are the PC is of a good natured background so it couldn't be controlled by her. And if of capability of that kind of power to control a layer of the Abyss, then you might as well slap a demi-god title on the PC and be done with it (1stE anyone? Monty Haul sound familiar?).
gravenhurst 04-04-08, 01:19 PM	No because it is reserved for the race of the abyss. D&D has made Hell and the Abyss too plane material like so as to make it in-hospitable for a player character to adventure too and survive. But in reality (in fantasy terms) it shouldn't happen unless the planes controller wishes it so. Even then, it is too fantastical. But it is a game and when players are bored of their own material plane (or the DM) fantastical will keep them interested in gaming longer in your world. I believe the Abyss or Hell should be reserved only for punishment or to torture the players into appreciating their own world of existence. Not even Iggwilv (from Greyhawk) can control a layer of the Abyss, possibly a demi-plane, but not an actual layer. Not even the controller of a plane of existence can rule the whole infinite layer, so how could a mere mortal? So if a mortal killed a Devil Lord or a Demon Prince a mortal is not made to sustain herself on a layer. Even then, the mortal ruler would be set upon by a horde of teleporting, summoning their own kind, immune to all sorts attacks, kind of monsters. Forget about it. The plane is morphed from the fabric of its alignment. So a Demon Prince is CE. Chances are the PC is of a good natured background so it couldn't be controlled by her. And if of capability of that kind of power to control a layer of the Abyss, then you might as well slap a demi-god title on the PC and be done with it (1stE anyone? Monty Haul sound familiar?). Adding to my own reply, I forgot about the Abyss being Divinely Morphic so, a PC of Lesser Rank could alter the area and keep it changed by their own will, including one's own alignment. Keeping it, while protecting his boundaries, would be challenging not to mention what the demons would do to you if they won back their layer! Any being lower than Lesser Rank the layer is Alterable Morphic, meaning: an epic PC changing the lay of the land to suit his needs but at the cost of actual physical labour and his, or servants, spells to create a hospitable place to live. Relics and artifacts of power and an army is what an epic character would need to maintain control of his area of the layer; a source of reinforcements would be a must and that is why a deity of Lesser Rank is needed to replenish his troops with petitioners. Only a sliver is controlled until he defeats all opposing alignments to be the sole decider could he rule a whole layer. The question for the DM when this happens is "does a newly formed realm automatically join its place in the tier of the Upper Planes (e.g. a PC is LG his new layer would leave the Abyss and adjoin Celestia?) or stay within the folds of the Abyss layers becoming a new foothold for good - assuming your epic PC is of good alignment"? Have you thought about the epic PC being part of a strike team of an already implanted deity, say St. Cuthbert, who has imparted divinity to you and is the one shouldering the burden of maintaining a foothold on a layer? Your PC would be his martial trying to expand his gods borders till it takes the whole layer? Your PC could stay epic or, as I suggested, become a quasi-deity. This is more plausible than the other way around because you would have to be a deity of equal or more to challenge a god in his own realm! And since Devil Lords and Demon Princes are not divine it is an easier campaign to smoke 'em out. Let's squeeze the Abyss like an accordion, eh? And flatten Hell into the Abysses Pit. A more realistic goal for player characters to achieve in the balanced mechanics of the D&D game.