CR's for Orcus and Tiamate on the their home planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR's for Orcus and Tiamate on the their home planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
e7way
02-28-07, 01:03 PM Our group is undertaking the Bloodstone Campaign and we have reached the final module H4 The Throne of Bloodstone.

In it the characters are on a mission to find Orcus on his home plane steal his wand and implant it into Tiamtes heart to destroy the wand.

We have been having some discussion on what Orcus' & Tiamtes CR would be. I think in the books it has Orcus' CR at a 28 or 29( i don't have the books here in front of me) that seems very low to us seeing as the dude has been around 10-20,000 years and is a ruler of a plane of the abyss.

So i was wondering if anyone had injected either of these two demons into their campaigns and what should their CR's be on their home planes.

we were thinking Orcus should be in the neighborhood of a 36 and Tiamtes in the neighborhood of 34? Are these too low? to high or just right.

P.S. for that matter how about Asmodeus the ruler of Hell?
I was thinking around a 56?
Mrloki
02-28-07, 01:13 PM We have been having some discussion on what Orcus' & Tiamtes CR would be. I think in the books it has Orcus' CR at a 28 or 29( i don't have the books here in front of me) that seems very low to us seeing as the dude has been around 10-20,000 years and is a ruler of a plane of hell.

Orcus is a demon not a devil. He rules a couple layers of the abyss I think. And in in fiendish codex I they have orcus at a cr of 22. They are more less avatars of them tho in my opinion. Look up dicefreaks they might have an orcus and tiamat more to your liking.
e7way
02-28-07, 01:17 PM ooops that was i typo for me yes i know he's a demons hence i asked what should these "demons CR be"?

;)
oracle71
02-28-07, 01:24 PM If you want your demon lords to be truly powerful, I suggest you peruse the Dicefreaks website. Their philosophy (which I agree with) is that these are supposed to be the most powerful entities in the multiverse, so you shouldn't be able to take them out with a party of four mortals, even epic level mortals. Under their philosophy, Asmodeus has a CR around 95, casts wizard spells at about 100th level, is effectively an DvR 20+ overdeity while in the nine hells (albeit one without any salient divine abilities), and he can desecrate an area simply by standing in it.

IMO, both Orcus, the Demon Prine of the Undead, and Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragon, should have CRs much, much higher than the mid 30s. A CR 35 Avatar form of either one wouldn't be unreasonable encounter for epic level heroes, though.

And just one minor correction, Orcus rules a layer of the Abyss, not a layer of the Nine Hells.
Witch
02-28-07, 01:41 PM Asmodeus has a CR around 95
81
casts wizard spells at about 100th level
76th

;)
is effectively an DvR 20+ overdeity while in the nine hells
While in the Hells, Asmodeus does have a cosmic rank of 81, he unfortunately is not an overdeity. He is a "mere" avatar of one.

Orcus should be at about a similar CR - not exactly, but close. Around 70 should be fine.

There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together.
ZiggZagg
02-28-07, 01:43 PM Those cr's at dicefreaks are insane. I do not beleive the lords of the nine are to be that strong that they dwarf even the gods. A good way to look at it is they ones from the Fiendish codex's were the avatars or aspects, and the printings in the Book of Vile Darkness could be the real version, since all their CR's are higher. And if you need them stronger, just advance them a little bit, but you will find they are already incredibly powerful
Mrloki
02-28-07, 01:46 PM There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together.

I think they planned on killing tiamat. So they could put the wand in the heart. I could be wrong tho heh!
Singer_of_the_Song
02-28-07, 01:48 PM Just make the CRs be whatever you think they should be. This thread is opening the can of worms, because people have wildly differing opinions about what the power level of Archfiends should be.

The Book of Vile Darkness has 20-32 CR Archfiends, and Fiendish Codexes have about 20-23. It's up to you to do what you want, you can advance/weaken those stats as you see fit, it's just whatever fits with what you have in mind.
Witch
02-28-07, 01:49 PM I think they planned on killing tiamat. So they could put the wand in the heart. I could be wrong tho heh!

Very possible. Strange to call both demons then, though.
e7way
02-28-07, 01:58 PM 81
76th

;)

While in the Hells, Asmodeus does have a cosmic rank of 81, he unfortunately is not an overdeity. He is a "mere" avatar of one.

Orcus should be at about a similar CR - not exactly, but close. Around 70 should be fine.

There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together.

yes we all know that Orcus and Tiamat hate each other. The module calls for the you to destroy the wand by implanting it into her heart.

ok i can see where this is going so far. We game 2 times a month thats as much as our wives will let us. so what are we to do? not finish this adventure?

if we were to play by those rules and stats for Orcus we should hit level 65 ...ohhh lets see.......carry the one..... *thinking if we are 22nd level now*...... *now thinking we are ages 31 in real life*............ We should hit level 60 in the year 2025.

Im asking for realistic CR's not some

"pun-pun i dont have a life D&D is all i do and it only takes me and my friends 2 years to get to level 65"

p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus?
Witch
02-28-07, 02:02 PM Im asking for realistic CR's not some
No, you're asking for beatable CRs. Big difference.

p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus?
http://community.dicefreaks.com/PDF/TGoH9.pdf for Asmodeus.
The Serge7
02-28-07, 02:16 PM p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus?

These Orcus (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218) stats will be revised when we release Horrors of The Abyss.

If you're not interested in epic planar entities that can challenge gods (since our gods have similar CRs to these various planar entities), you may want to check out Kain Darkwind's Alternate Cosmic Entities (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=311) thread.

Good luck.
primemover003
02-28-07, 07:10 PM Or you could pick up Fiendish Codex I:Hordes of the Abyss for Orcus and Tiamat I think is in Deities and Demigods...
Freefall
03-01-07, 12:38 AM There are versions of Orcus in the Book of Vile Darkness and Fiendish Codex I. Both are under CR 30, but they could be advanced, and the Fiendish Codex contains more detailed rules than normal about how to make the demons lords stronger if that's what you want (it is also a much better book overall than the Book of Vile Darkness).

Tiamat can be found in the Manual of the Planes and Deities & Demigods. The D&DG version is basically unbeatable if your PCs are under level 50, so you probably don't want that one (and frankly, the book in general is pretty lousy). The MotP version is pegged at CR 25. I think it might actually be a bit stronger (it seems stronger than any of the Great Wyrms in the MM, at least). Still, you could advance her as well.

The Epic Level Handbook would also be useful for making them stronger by using the extra age categories for dragons, Epic feats, and Epic equipment.

If you don't have any of those and don't feel like buying them, I would say for Orcus just start off with an advanced Balor and switch around/add SLAs to give it an undead/necromantic bent, and give it a powerful magical rod. For Tiamat, maybe start with an advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon for basic stats, then add 4 more heads (one for each color), all able to act independantly. That should be close enough.
Witch
03-01-07, 07:48 AM Or you could pick up Fiendish Codex I:Hordes of the Abyss for Orcus and Tiamat I think is in Deities and Demigods...

D&Dg Gods are not compatible with FC archfiends.
primemover003
03-01-07, 12:51 PM Didn't she have an Avatar in there though??? You're right though about D&DG not really fitting with the FC archfiends. I really like the Aspect mechanics better than Avatars anyway, I just didn't think there was one as powerful written for Tiamat yet. I forgot she was in MotP.
The Serge7
03-01-07, 01:43 PM Didn't she have an Avatar in there though??? You're right though about D&DG not really fitting with the FC archfiends. I really like the Aspect mechanics better than Avatars anyway, I just didn't think there was one as powerful written for Tiamat yet. I forgot she was in MotP.
Yes, there is an avatar of Tiamat therein... But it would wipe the floor with any of the "arch-fiends" in either FC.
Upper_Krust
03-02-07, 08:26 AM Hey all! :)

I think there are three ways of looking at it.

1. Are the Demon Princes 'gods'? ...if so, use dicefreak level stats.

2. Are the demon princes mere lapdogs of the gods? ...if so use Book of Vile Darkness/Demonomicon article stats.

3. Do you just want Demon Princes the party can kill at non-epic levels with no regard for verisimilitude? ...if so use the Fiendish Codex versions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
e7way 02-28-07, 01:03 PM	Our group is undertaking the Bloodstone Campaign and we have reached the final module H4 The Throne of Bloodstone. In it the characters are on a mission to find Orcus on his home plane steal his wand and implant it into Tiamtes heart to destroy the wand. We have been having some discussion on what Orcus' & Tiamtes CR would be. I think in the books it has Orcus' CR at a 28 or 29( i don't have the books here in front of me) that seems very low to us seeing as the dude has been around 10-20,000 years and is a ruler of a plane of the abyss. So i was wondering if anyone had injected either of these two demons into their campaigns and what should their CR's be on their home planes. we were thinking Orcus should be in the neighborhood of a 36 and Tiamtes in the neighborhood of 34? Are these too low? to high or just right. P.S. for that matter how about Asmodeus the ruler of Hell? I was thinking around a 56?
Mrloki 02-28-07, 01:13 PM	We have been having some discussion on what Orcus' & Tiamtes CR would be. I think in the books it has Orcus' CR at a 28 or 29( i don't have the books here in front of me) that seems very low to us seeing as the dude has been around 10-20,000 years and is a ruler of a plane of hell. Orcus is a demon not a devil. He rules a couple layers of the abyss I think. And in in fiendish codex I they have orcus at a cr of 22. They are more less avatars of them tho in my opinion. Look up dicefreaks they might have an orcus and tiamat more to your liking.
e7way 02-28-07, 01:17 PM	ooops that was i typo for me yes i know he's a demons hence i asked what should these "demons CR be"? ;)
oracle71 02-28-07, 01:24 PM	If you want your demon lords to be truly powerful, I suggest you peruse the Dicefreaks website. Their philosophy (which I agree with) is that these are supposed to be the most powerful entities in the multiverse, so you shouldn't be able to take them out with a party of four mortals, even epic level mortals. Under their philosophy, Asmodeus has a CR around 95, casts wizard spells at about 100th level, is effectively an DvR 20+ overdeity while in the nine hells (albeit one without any salient divine abilities), and he can desecrate an area simply by standing in it. IMO, both Orcus, the Demon Prine of the Undead, and Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragon, should have CRs much, much higher than the mid 30s. A CR 35 Avatar form of either one wouldn't be unreasonable encounter for epic level heroes, though. And just one minor correction, Orcus rules a layer of the Abyss, not a layer of the Nine Hells.
Witch 02-28-07, 01:41 PM	Asmodeus has a CR around 95 81 casts wizard spells at about 100th level 76th ;) is effectively an DvR 20+ overdeity while in the nine hells While in the Hells, Asmodeus does have a cosmic rank of 81, he unfortunately is not an overdeity. He is a "mere" avatar of one. Orcus should be at about a similar CR - not exactly, but close. Around 70 should be fine. There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together.
ZiggZagg 02-28-07, 01:43 PM	Those cr's at dicefreaks are insane. I do not beleive the lords of the nine are to be that strong that they dwarf even the gods. A good way to look at it is they ones from the Fiendish codex's were the avatars or aspects, and the printings in the Book of Vile Darkness could be the real version, since all their CR's are higher. And if you need them stronger, just advance them a little bit, but you will find they are already incredibly powerful
Mrloki 02-28-07, 01:46 PM	There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together. I think they planned on killing tiamat. So they could put the wand in the heart. I could be wrong tho heh!
Singer_of_the_Song 02-28-07, 01:48 PM	Just make the CRs be whatever you think they should be. This thread is opening the can of worms, because people have wildly differing opinions about what the power level of Archfiends should be. The Book of Vile Darkness has 20-32 CR Archfiends, and Fiendish Codexes have about 20-23. It's up to you to do what you want, you can advance/weaken those stats as you see fit, it's just whatever fits with what you have in mind.
Witch 02-28-07, 01:49 PM	I think they planned on killing tiamat. So they could put the wand in the heart. I could be wrong tho heh! Very possible. Strange to call both demons then, though.
e7way 02-28-07, 01:58 PM	81 76th ;) While in the Hells, Asmodeus does have a cosmic rank of 81, he unfortunately is not an overdeity. He is a "mere" avatar of one. Orcus should be at about a similar CR - not exactly, but close. Around 70 should be fine. There's a problem in having Orcus & Tiamat ally. They hate eachother. LE & CE don't go together. yes we all know that Orcus and Tiamat hate each other. The module calls for the you to destroy the wand by implanting it into her heart. ok i can see where this is going so far. We game 2 times a month thats as much as our wives will let us. so what are we to do? not finish this adventure? if we were to play by those rules and stats for Orcus we should hit level 65 ...ohhh lets see.......carry the one..... thinking if we are 22nd level now...... now thinking we are ages 31 in real life............ We should hit level 60 in the year 2025. Im asking for realistic CR's not some "pun-pun i dont have a life D&D is all i do and it only takes me and my friends 2 years to get to level 65" p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus?
Witch 02-28-07, 02:02 PM	Im asking for realistic CR's not some No, you're asking for beatable CRs. Big difference. p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus? http://community.dicefreaks.com/PDF/TGoH9.pdf for Asmodeus.
The Serge7 02-28-07, 02:16 PM	p.s. where did you get those stats for orcus and Asmodeus? These Orcus (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218) stats will be revised when we release Horrors of The Abyss. If you're not interested in epic planar entities that can challenge gods (since our gods have similar CRs to these various planar entities), you may want to check out Kain Darkwind's Alternate Cosmic Entities (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=311) thread. Good luck.
primemover003 02-28-07, 07:10 PM	Or you could pick up Fiendish Codex I:Hordes of the Abyss for Orcus and Tiamat I think is in Deities and Demigods...
Freefall 03-01-07, 12:38 AM	There are versions of Orcus in the Book of Vile Darkness and Fiendish Codex I. Both are under CR 30, but they could be advanced, and the Fiendish Codex contains more detailed rules than normal about how to make the demons lords stronger if that's what you want (it is also a much better book overall than the Book of Vile Darkness). Tiamat can be found in the Manual of the Planes and Deities & Demigods. The D&DG version is basically unbeatable if your PCs are under level 50, so you probably don't want that one (and frankly, the book in general is pretty lousy). The MotP version is pegged at CR 25. I think it might actually be a bit stronger (it seems stronger than any of the Great Wyrms in the MM, at least). Still, you could advance her as well. The Epic Level Handbook would also be useful for making them stronger by using the extra age categories for dragons, Epic feats, and Epic equipment. If you don't have any of those and don't feel like buying them, I would say for Orcus just start off with an advanced Balor and switch around/add SLAs to give it an undead/necromantic bent, and give it a powerful magical rod. For Tiamat, maybe start with an advanced Great Wyrm Red Dragon for basic stats, then add 4 more heads (one for each color), all able to act independantly. That should be close enough.
Witch 03-01-07, 07:48 AM	Or you could pick up Fiendish Codex I:Hordes of the Abyss for Orcus and Tiamat I think is in Deities and Demigods... D&Dg Gods are not compatible with FC archfiends.
primemover003 03-01-07, 12:51 PM	Didn't she have an Avatar in there though??? You're right though about D&DG not really fitting with the FC archfiends. I really like the Aspect mechanics better than Avatars anyway, I just didn't think there was one as powerful written for Tiamat yet. I forgot she was in MotP.
The Serge7 03-01-07, 01:43 PM	Didn't she have an Avatar in there though??? You're right though about D&DG not really fitting with the FC archfiends. I really like the Aspect mechanics better than Avatars anyway, I just didn't think there was one as powerful written for Tiamat yet. I forgot she was in MotP. Yes, there is an avatar of Tiamat therein... But it would wipe the floor with any of the "arch-fiends" in either FC.
Upper_Krust 03-02-07, 08:26 AM	Hey all! :) I think there are three ways of looking at it. 1. Are the Demon Princes 'gods'? ...if so, use dicefreak level stats. 2. Are the demon princes mere lapdogs of the gods? ...if so use Book of Vile Darkness/Demonomicon article stats. 3. Do you just want Demon Princes the party can kill at non-epic levels with no regard for verisimilitude? ...if so use the Fiendish Codex versions.