Death as a god, and the Plane of shadow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death as a god, and the Plane of shadow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
monai75
01-12-08, 02:06 AM Two issues I need some advise with.

1st- I have a player who wants to play a character who has levels in cleric. And he wants the clerical spells to be granted from not so much a being or god who's domain is death, undeath. But he rather wants to revere the force of death itself as if it where a tangible sentient force. The player has a great background and I can deal with the mechanics of the idea, I just want some ideas as far as what types of requirements would such a force have. He does not plan on being a completely evil character. More of a servant of death, and a seeker of knowledge. He will also have levels in mage specializing in, yes you guessed it, Necromancy. Do I have to force this guy to become evil for simply his choice of god and school of magic to specialize in? Or is there really a way other characters in a party of hero types would get along with him and not compleatly dispise him. I think so, But I want to know what all the other GM's + DM's think.

2nd-I have another player who plays in my campaign who's character has a Object keyed to the elemental plane of shadow. And the longer he has this item with him, the stronger the pull of the shadows. Thus further temping him to follow the path of the shadow. Sounds great and the characters should be careful. BUT, how do I get that temptation across to "In-Game" mechanics? In other words how do I get the player to have to really be concerned about this, and have the effects gain in severity the longer he keeps it? I would like some feedback as to how to handle this storyline situation.
HernetheHunter
01-12-08, 02:21 AM 1. Death is not seen as an evil entity in many cultures and I believe his actions and what he does with his power and ability should determine his alignment. Have you ever read Death Merchant by Chris Moore? Or any of the Pratchett Discworld books? Some good ideas in there.

2. What is wrong with the path of the Shadow?
celestialkin
01-12-08, 02:25 AM 1st- Not really a DM yet, but as someone who played a few non-evil characters who used necromancy and were fascinated by death I just want to throw my :twocents: in. I had them make a very deep personal decision to only ever use the bodies of their fallen evil enemies for their acts of necromancy. I did once end up using an ally's body in an emergency, but he wanted my character dead for his "evil" acts, so the PC really did not care. The PC let the party destroy it immediately afterwards.

2nd- Look into the taint rules in Heroes of Horror. Been a while since I skimmed threw those rules, but I think it might work for what you want.
castlemike
01-12-08, 02:28 AM I lprefer Death to embody a LN or N basic multiversal concept. Death itself isn't necessarily bad or evil so you shouldn't need to force the alignment issues IMO.

Consider starting to give him something like the +0 Dark creature or Shadowwalker templates while the object is in his possession which will eventually confer the standard +1LA template which may or may not be able to be bought down with the LA buydown variants and possibly advancing the template to the +2 Shadow Creature template if retained.
malykoth
01-12-08, 06:21 PM Perhaps "Death" as an entity is vehemently against the creation of undead? After all, undeath actually allows someone to escape death (after a fashion). The same could be said of any creature that extends its life, outlives its time, or somehow escapes its fate. Such a character could be like a bounty hunter/ undead-slayer/ assassin concept, upholding the concept that everything ends in oblivion, and death will...at the allotted time...encompass all of reality. They see no need to run around slaughtering the helpless, as death will claim them all when death wishes it, and not before. Though not evil, they would still be pretty cold...for example, not stopping to aid the sick or injured unless absolutely necessary. On the other hand, they'd be reveared as 'valiant' slayers of vampires and liches. They might even be able to get away with using non-sentient undead as servants. They are, after all, just automatons powered by what some would consider the force of death, itself. When the unintelligent undead are of no more use, they are simply destroyed.

As for the temptation thing...Each time the player uses the item, and for every day he has the item, he gains a few 'points' (he won't know how many). You, as the DM, would have a certain number in mind (obviously, you don't tell him which). When his points reach this number, he gains permanent alterations (as decided by you, not him) to his character. Make a point of letting him know each time you're marking down some points, and remind him that his time is running out with each addition. The uncertainty of not knowing not only the amount of time left, but the nature of the alterations (i.e.: the discomfort of having one's character altered without one's say so) should make holding the item a bit more unsettling. I'm not saying screw him with the alterations, but don't let him choose the powers, and make the side effects inconvenient, but possibly worth it.
monai75
01-12-08, 11:44 PM Thank you .....
Shemeska the Marauder
01-13-08, 12:44 AM Death as an abstract concept doesn't need to be evil at all.

I can think of one particular character, Oridi Malefin, the tiefling high priestess of the Dustmen (one of the Planescape factions). She was a cleric of the abstract concept of death, and was rather solidly neutral in alignment (LN IIRC). The dustmen notion of death was a bit different from many, but she wasn't evil in the slightest. Death was a natural thing for her, and perhaps even a promised reward at the end of a natural cycle of which the current portion was a sort of self-delusional prison of flesh that falsely claimed to be life. True death was something to be reflected upon and sought out by each individual, hoping for a release from a temporal purgatory of sorts till some measure of enlightenment would allow for release from "life".

There was also Lothar the Master of the Bones, a neutral human cleric of the abstract concept of Death (who was also the highest level mortal known to live in Sigil).
twiggyleaf
01-13-08, 07:11 AM I agree with most other's comments that worship of Death need not necessarily mean an evil alignment. Certainly, Celtic Druids worshipped Death in the form of the Great Wyrm, and although they may have had occasional sacrifices, they were not inherently evil. And even human sacrifices were rare. I'm sure you can find a way for your player to worship a Death figure without destroying party relations. This "God of Death" could have the power of healing as well as destruction. Also, it could be the worship of a lesser vassal - a sort of minor deity that doesn't do EVERYTHING he is told and has a bent towards neutrality or even good.

As for your second idea, I think Malykoth has hit the nail on the head. It should make for very exciting game play.
FFTGeist
01-19-08, 07:41 PM I am currently running a campaign where there is a god of death. I personally have him as Lawfull neutral.
"Death is an eventuality, all things that begin have an end. Gods rise and fall, art eventually fades, memories dissapear, and so does the life of a human."

Though the god is neutral he does not allow for his clerics to choose to channel negative energy, for that would hinder their ability to turn undead.

The religion isn't highly popular, and not many take to it. Worshipping death is found usually as helping people pass on to the next life, naturally. The clerics and other followers try to destroy undead at every chance. The undead are a perversion of life. Things like liches or others who unnaturally extend their life after its natrual death are sought out and killed by the fanatics.

On the friendlier day to day buisness the church heals those who are not terminal and aids in all ways of the funerals. Its almost a celebration for them.

You'll find most followers have jobs that involve death, gravediggers, groundskeepers of a graveyard, exorcists.

Just a few random thoughts i figured i'd share.
Tissue_Paper
01-21-08, 07:01 PM To simulate the effect you are looking for have the item (once it has been used X times) give the player a minor template like the Dark template and adjust their alignment.

Hope this helps!
Phaenix
01-28-08, 04:20 PM A lot of people have pointed out that Death isn't necessarily evil. I agree. I'll also add that Shadow is not necessarilty evil. In fact, you might think of it similarly to death- a force of nature. In the normal D&D cosmology, the Plane of Shadow is mildly neutral-aligned.

The Dark and Shadow templates do work nicely, and If you add light-sensitivity and other drawbacks it could balance out Dark.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monai75 01-12-08, 02:06 AM	Two issues I need some advise with. 1st- I have a player who wants to play a character who has levels in cleric. And he wants the clerical spells to be granted from not so much a being or god who's domain is death, undeath. But he rather wants to revere the force of death itself as if it where a tangible sentient force. The player has a great background and I can deal with the mechanics of the idea, I just want some ideas as far as what types of requirements would such a force have. He does not plan on being a completely evil character. More of a servant of death, and a seeker of knowledge. He will also have levels in mage specializing in, yes you guessed it, Necromancy. Do I have to force this guy to become evil for simply his choice of god and school of magic to specialize in? Or is there really a way other characters in a party of hero types would get along with him and not compleatly dispise him. I think so, But I want to know what all the other GM's + DM's think. 2nd-I have another player who plays in my campaign who's character has a Object keyed to the elemental plane of shadow. And the longer he has this item with him, the stronger the pull of the shadows. Thus further temping him to follow the path of the shadow. Sounds great and the characters should be careful. BUT, how do I get that temptation across to "In-Game" mechanics? In other words how do I get the player to have to really be concerned about this, and have the effects gain in severity the longer he keeps it? I would like some feedback as to how to handle this storyline situation.
HernetheHunter 01-12-08, 02:21 AM	1. Death is not seen as an evil entity in many cultures and I believe his actions and what he does with his power and ability should determine his alignment. Have you ever read Death Merchant by Chris Moore? Or any of the Pratchett Discworld books? Some good ideas in there. 2. What is wrong with the path of the Shadow?
celestialkin 01-12-08, 02:25 AM	1st- Not really a DM yet, but as someone who played a few non-evil characters who used necromancy and were fascinated by death I just want to throw my :twocents: in. I had them make a very deep personal decision to only ever use the bodies of their fallen evil enemies for their acts of necromancy. I did once end up using an ally's body in an emergency, but he wanted my character dead for his "evil" acts, so the PC really did not care. The PC let the party destroy it immediately afterwards. 2nd- Look into the taint rules in Heroes of Horror. Been a while since I skimmed threw those rules, but I think it might work for what you want.
castlemike 01-12-08, 02:28 AM	I lprefer Death to embody a LN or N basic multiversal concept. Death itself isn't necessarily bad or evil so you shouldn't need to force the alignment issues IMO. Consider starting to give him something like the +0 Dark creature or Shadowwalker templates while the object is in his possession which will eventually confer the standard +1LA template which may or may not be able to be bought down with the LA buydown variants and possibly advancing the template to the +2 Shadow Creature template if retained.
malykoth 01-12-08, 06:21 PM	Perhaps "Death" as an entity is vehemently against the creation of undead? After all, undeath actually allows someone to escape death (after a fashion). The same could be said of any creature that extends its life, outlives its time, or somehow escapes its fate. Such a character could be like a bounty hunter/ undead-slayer/ assassin concept, upholding the concept that everything ends in oblivion, and death will...at the allotted time...encompass all of reality. They see no need to run around slaughtering the helpless, as death will claim them all when death wishes it, and not before. Though not evil, they would still be pretty cold...for example, not stopping to aid the sick or injured unless absolutely necessary. On the other hand, they'd be reveared as 'valiant' slayers of vampires and liches. They might even be able to get away with using non-sentient undead as servants. They are, after all, just automatons powered by what some would consider the force of death, itself. When the unintelligent undead are of no more use, they are simply destroyed. As for the temptation thing...Each time the player uses the item, and for every day he has the item, he gains a few 'points' (he won't know how many). You, as the DM, would have a certain number in mind (obviously, you don't tell him which). When his points reach this number, he gains permanent alterations (as decided by you, not him) to his character. Make a point of letting him know each time you're marking down some points, and remind him that his time is running out with each addition. The uncertainty of not knowing not only the amount of time left, but the nature of the alterations (i.e.: the discomfort of having one's character altered without one's say so) should make holding the item a bit more unsettling. I'm not saying screw him with the alterations, but don't let him choose the powers, and make the side effects inconvenient, but possibly worth it.
monai75 01-12-08, 11:44 PM	Thank you .....
Shemeska the Marauder 01-13-08, 12:44 AM	Death as an abstract concept doesn't need to be evil at all. I can think of one particular character, Oridi Malefin, the tiefling high priestess of the Dustmen (one of the Planescape factions). She was a cleric of the abstract concept of death, and was rather solidly neutral in alignment (LN IIRC). The dustmen notion of death was a bit different from many, but she wasn't evil in the slightest. Death was a natural thing for her, and perhaps even a promised reward at the end of a natural cycle of which the current portion was a sort of self-delusional prison of flesh that falsely claimed to be life. True death was something to be reflected upon and sought out by each individual, hoping for a release from a temporal purgatory of sorts till some measure of enlightenment would allow for release from "life". There was also Lothar the Master of the Bones, a neutral human cleric of the abstract concept of Death (who was also the highest level mortal known to live in Sigil).
twiggyleaf 01-13-08, 07:11 AM	I agree with most other's comments that worship of Death need not necessarily mean an evil alignment. Certainly, Celtic Druids worshipped Death in the form of the Great Wyrm, and although they may have had occasional sacrifices, they were not inherently evil. And even human sacrifices were rare. I'm sure you can find a way for your player to worship a Death figure without destroying party relations. This "God of Death" could have the power of healing as well as destruction. Also, it could be the worship of a lesser vassal - a sort of minor deity that doesn't do EVERYTHING he is told and has a bent towards neutrality or even good. As for your second idea, I think Malykoth has hit the nail on the head. It should make for very exciting game play.
FFTGeist 01-19-08, 07:41 PM	I am currently running a campaign where there is a god of death. I personally have him as Lawfull neutral. "Death is an eventuality, all things that begin have an end. Gods rise and fall, art eventually fades, memories dissapear, and so does the life of a human." Though the god is neutral he does not allow for his clerics to choose to channel negative energy, for that would hinder their ability to turn undead. The religion isn't highly popular, and not many take to it. Worshipping death is found usually as helping people pass on to the next life, naturally. The clerics and other followers try to destroy undead at every chance. The undead are a perversion of life. Things like liches or others who unnaturally extend their life after its natrual death are sought out and killed by the fanatics. On the friendlier day to day buisness the church heals those who are not terminal and aids in all ways of the funerals. Its almost a celebration for them. You'll find most followers have jobs that involve death, gravediggers, groundskeepers of a graveyard, exorcists. Just a few random thoughts i figured i'd share.
Tissue_Paper 01-21-08, 07:01 PM	To simulate the effect you are looking for have the item (once it has been used X times) give the player a minor template like the Dark template and adjust their alignment. Hope this helps!
Phaenix 01-28-08, 04:20 PM	A lot of people have pointed out that Death isn't necessarily evil. I agree. I'll also add that Shadow is not necessarilty evil. In fact, you might think of it similarly to death- a force of nature. In the normal D&D cosmology, the Plane of Shadow is mildly neutral-aligned. The Dark and Shadow templates do work nicely, and If you add light-sensitivity and other drawbacks it could balance out Dark.