Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Singer_of_the_Song 02-25-07, 10:00 PM	They killed her off in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and had Glasya replace her. Did you, fellow board-members, like or dislike this change?
zook1shoe666 02-25-07, 10:25 PM	i think it was a very interesting move, i preferred the picture of the hag countess. i know several people that were confused why the hag countess was an Archdevil, but loved the change. i don't know nobody that prefered the hag countess.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-25-07, 10:28 PM	I hate the change myself.
Singer_of_the_Song 02-25-07, 10:39 PM	I hate the change myself. Why?
Shemeska the Marauder 02-25-07, 11:31 PM	Initially I had mixed feelings about the change (I'd have killed off Mammon if any of them to be honest), but I think the way that they killed her off was innovative, and it honestly opens up more plots than it prevents. The idea of the Countess being absorbed into the layer, and the bits of her trying to gather themselves back together, rebelling against the domination of Glasya... that's just too cool and too creepy to not appreciate. In summary, the authors handled the topic in the best way such a thing could be handled. You don't do anything major without providing a wealth of material to replace what you remove, and they gave us stuff in spades. :)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-25-07, 11:42 PM	Why? I liked the Hag Countess. I've never liked Glasya.
RavinRay 02-26-07, 12:39 AM	i know several people that were confused why the hag countess was an Archdevil, but loved the change. i don't know nobody that prefered the hag countess. For those unsuspecting PCs who failed their Knowledge check, she'd register as an archdevil in their minds. But others knew better. And several threads back, there was someone who said he preferred the Hag, because the "ugly crone image" provided a nice physical contrast to the alluringly beautiful Fierna and Glasya.
zook1shoe666 02-26-07, 09:57 AM	*nods* to each their own ;)
PunkRockBard 02-26-07, 08:01 PM	For those unsuspecting PCs who failed their Knowledge check, she'd register as an archdevil in their minds. But others knew better. And several threads back, there was someone who said he preferred the Hag, because the "ugly crone image" provided a nice physical contrast to the alluringly beautiful Fierna and Glasya. i said that :) Others agreed. While Glasya and Fierna are still too similiar....the positives outway this. The sixth layer is now one of the most intriquing of The Nine Hells...hands down. Glasya, while still a vixen like Fierna, has gathered maturity and sense of self with time. She has grown into the role of archdevil quite well. The change has my blessing (not that it counts for much!)
Marendithas_the_Necro 02-28-07, 07:48 AM	i buyed the book, can you tell me where they say about HOW she died? chapter plz
Thunder Rift 02-28-07, 09:50 AM	I liked the Hag just because her appearance in the nine thrones was so unexpected from what we all grew up with. Glacya however has history and had a very important role in my old games. It is nice to see her come back with more glory than ever before.
Daniel_Raitrick 02-28-07, 11:04 AM	Personally, I'd like Moloch to crawl out of whatever hole he fell into and have some kind of reckoning with the infernal powers that be. But since that is neither here nor there, I prefered Glasya because, well she's the daughter of Asmodeus. The Countess was just some random Mega Hag.
Romtos 02-28-07, 01:32 PM	i buyed the book, can you tell me where they say about HOW she died? chapter plz Chapter of the layers.
Singer_of_the_Song 02-28-07, 01:33 PM	Personally, I'd like Moloch to crawl out of whatever hole he fell into and have some kind of reckoning with the infernal powers that be. But since that is neither here nor there, I prefered Glasya because, well she's the daughter of Asmodeus. The Countess was just some random Mega Hag. I want both Moloch and Geryon to return...I really, really liked them.
PunkRockBard 02-28-07, 02:43 PM	I want both Moloch and Geryon to return...I really, really liked them. I loved and still love Geryon. i miss the winged serpentine fella. i think it'd be great to have him return in some form, tho not as a Lord of the Nine. Change is hard people....but in the long run it is healthy! There were outbursts with the Hag Countess death...heck i was a tad distraught...but the result is pretty darn fantastic. Unless there are solid practical reasons that outweigh the changes (i personally think Yugoloths across the three planes of conflict is much more efficient thematically than lumped in Gehenna), then let the changes happen. The results might surprise You.
ArcTan 02-28-07, 03:57 PM	I loved and still love Geryon. i miss the winged serpentine fella. i think it'd be great to have him return in some form, tho not as a Lord of the Nine. You saw him as a vestige in Tome of Magic, right? Call me crazy, but I consider that the most appropriate final fate for the old guy -- as an immortal living symbol of betrayed, misplaced loyalty.
Evil DM Mk3 02-28-07, 04:17 PM	I was mildly miffed when the Hag countess arived. She seemd out of place, somehow, off... I used her, she was quite cool but somehow, well not quite right... Now, the whole arc gains meaning, the plot swings into view and clears. I now know the who whats wheres and whys. And it is brilliant. Rot in peace, you old bag. Long live Glacya!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-28-07, 04:35 PM	Personally, I'd like Moloch to crawl out of whatever hole he fell into and have some kind of reckoning with the infernal powers that be. But since that is neither here nor there, I prefered Glasya because, well she's the daughter of Asmodeus. The Countess was just some random Mega Hag. Well, officially, Moloch is kind of dead, what with being trapped on an exploding planet that was completely cut off from the planes. So, he died, and his essence was prevented from returning to Baator, and thus dissipated.
The_Shaman 02-28-07, 04:43 PM	It's a bit weird that the Hells are starting to become something like a family business, I'd have preferred it if Glasya had been just a random hyper-erynies. Oh well, I think she's got it in her to be a hell of a she-devil.
Singer_of_the_Song 02-28-07, 07:54 PM	Well, officially, Moloch is kind of dead, what with being trapped on an exploding planet that was completely cut off from the planes. So, he died, and his essence was prevented from returning to Baator, and thus dissipated. Others say he is gathering an army in Gehenna. Several times 3.X material has alluded to him being "out there" somewhere. Although I know exactly the module you are referring to, I'm not sure if it became "canon".
crimsonwolf 02-28-07, 08:07 PM	i want a full out heavy bloodwar expanded dragging eveyone into it :D:D devils demons tana'ri uprising have elder evils just tear everyone up evil gods having to fend for there place in the lower realms of exsistance as eveyones battle lines gets blurred make the materail plane nothing more then a wasteland ...BWABWABWABWA THE RISE OF THE TELETUBBIES HAS BEGUN
zook1shoe666 02-28-07, 08:09 PM	i want a full out heavy bloodwar expanded dragging eveyone into it :D:D HAHAHA... that'd make things interesting
Marendithas_the_Necro 02-28-07, 09:51 PM	Chapter of the layers. thanks
TheOinodaemon 03-01-07, 02:08 AM	Moloch's still alive, or at least some devil with his name. "Moloch" is listed as one of the Outcast Devils residing on Avernus. Personally, I like him alive, waiting for the day when he can get his layer back. I never really liked the Hag, and wasn't sorry to see her go.
ripvanwormer 03-01-07, 02:26 AM	Right, Moloch is officially alive, though Fiendish Codex II has enough continuity errors in it that I'm reluctant to credit the authors with doing that on purpose. For example, every single member of Mephistopheles' court is still alive, even the treacherous pit fiends. So who exactly did he destroy after his Molikroth scheme? Another example is two of the members of the Dark Eight are also listed as members of Belial and Fierna's court. However, I see nothing wrong with Moloch being alive even in light of The Apocalypse Stone. The thing on the dying planet may have been only an aspect (given his power level in the adventure, this is extremely likely). Even if it was his true form, once the world had completely died I doubt it would have remained cut off from the planes. As for the Hag Countess, I liked her. I agree that it's nice to have an alternate female archetype other than "alluring she-devil." I didn't like that 3e made her a night hag instead of a haglike devil, but I like Shemmy's idea that she was one of the cabal of hags who created the altraloth Xengahra. However, the way that they destroyed her was extremely interesting and fit with her plot hooks in Guide to Hell - the idea that she was experimenting with gaining divine power. I think her twisted apotheosis - merging agonizingly with her layer - was probably a result of one of her own experiments, perhaps an extension of the flesh-warping techniques she originally learned crafting altraloths. What's more, she's not really gone. She's out of the picture for now, but the pieces of her - the kalabons - are trying to put themselves back together. Perhaps they will one day succeed, and she'll be far more powerful than ever. After all, she's huge now, and the kalabons are much more than she ever was before. With them united, she might be unstoppable.
zook1shoe666 03-01-07, 10:14 AM	Rip.... thank you as always... you bring up some interesting points :) i never really thought about the Hag Countess being able to "come back". i like that idea.
FrostHammer 03-01-07, 03:06 PM	It's a bit weird that the Hells are starting to become something like a family business, I'd have preferred it if Glasya had been just a random hyper-erynies. Oh well, I think she's got it in her to be a hell of a she-devil. Aren't Erynies demons? The devil equivalent would be Succubi. I can't imagine a demon being a duke of the nine hells.
Evil DM Mk3 03-01-07, 03:10 PM	Aren't Erynies demons? The devil equivalent would be Succubi. I can't imagine a demon being a duke of the nine hells. Um, no. You have almost 100% the wrong way round there...
Witch 03-01-07, 03:12 PM	Aren't Erynies demons? The devil equivalent would be Succubi. No.
FrostHammer 03-01-07, 05:01 PM	So Succubi are the demons? Bah, I need to brush up on my demonology.
zook1shoe666 03-01-07, 08:10 PM	yes.... succubi = demons, erinyes = devils in one of the last Dragon mags... they introduced the official Incubus, the male version of the succubus
Singer_of_the_Song 03-01-07, 09:10 PM	No. Truly, a man of few words.
Thanael 03-03-07, 01:24 PM	in one of the last Dragon mags... they introduced the official Incubus, the male version of the succubus Which issue was that?
zook1shoe666 03-03-07, 01:30 PM	the one with Malcanthat *looks* #353
Tarascon 03-03-07, 04:06 PM	in one of the last Dragon mags... they introduced the official Incubus, the male version of the succubus Before that they had incubi in The Book of Fiends at a CR 8. Looking back on it now, that one was really just a succubus with new abilities. The new one seems logical, but so does the old one. However, as mentioned, the old one could probably just as be easily be used by switching the gender of a regular succubus, while the new one strikes me as a weaker version of an evil satyr.
zook1shoe666 03-04-07, 12:19 AM	the new one strikes me as a weaker version of an evil satyr. lol.... *looks* agreed ;) i started with core 3.0, so i never really knew anything older, and only have a few non-official books.
Orodruin 03-04-07, 07:00 AM	However, I see nothing wrong with Moloch being alive even in light of The Apocalypse Stone. The thing on the dying planet may have been only an aspect (given his power level in the adventure, this is extremely likely). Even if it was his true form, once the world had completely died I doubt it would have remained cut off from the planes. Like Graz'zt's stats (in For Duty and Deity) and Geryon's (in A Paladin in Hell) Moloch's abilities were derived from his 1st ed. stats, so I doubt it was an aspect (or an avatar in 2nd ed lingo) I remember being a bit surprised since I was expecting at least a minor "power up" between editions. I also liked the Hag Countess. I don't get why some people complained about her not being an actual "devil". Tiamat was an "Archdevil" for all of 1st ed. Nobody had issues with it back then...
AngelofCthulhu 03-04-07, 08:16 AM	The one thing I am curious about is what happened to the monstrous Baatorians that were supposedly living on the 6th Layer. I liked the Hag Countess and hate Glasya. She is totally going to suffer. Heh, oh yea. The funny part is with Glasya and Fierna allying, everyone's balance of power shifts, except for Bel's (my personal fave amongst the Arch Devils) Too bad his new art makes him ugly (His BoVD art was HOT)
Romulus LoneWolf 03-04-07, 08:43 PM	Right, Moloch is officially alive, though Fiendish Codex II has enough continuity errors in it that I'm reluctant to credit the authors with doing that on purpose. For example, every single member of Mephistopheles' court is still alive, even the treacherous pit fiends. So who exactly did he destroy after his Molikroth scheme? Here's a simple fix... Mephistopheles destroyed those treacherous court members utterly... ...Then, he promoted some replacements and gave them all the exact same names as a sick personal joke.
ripvanwormer 03-04-07, 09:01 PM	I doubt it was an aspect (or an avatar in 2nd ed lingo) It wasn't intended as an aspect or avatar, no. The stats in Guide to Hell, by the same author, were also intended to be their "true forms" (except Asmodeus' stats, which were specifically those of his avatar) - Chris Pramas took the point of view that the other archfiends, being non-divine, were incapable of creating avatars. What I meant was that seen from the perspective of third edition, when the Lords of the Nine can create aspects of a power level roughly equivalent to the late-2nd edition stats given to them, it was probably an aspect. This wasn't the original intent, but it's what makes the most sense now.
Bob the Efreet 03-05-07, 03:45 AM	The one thing I am curious about is what happened to the monstrous Baatorians that were supposedly living on the 6th Layer. Maybe the Hag is slowly devouring them to power her apotheosis/regeneration.
Palindrome 03-07-07, 11:05 AM	I like that the Hag Countess is dead, and I like how she was gotten rid of. I never really thought that she was a 'good fit' for Hell anyway.
Kain Darkwind 03-07-07, 12:50 PM	I liked the change, unlike some that have been made throughout the editions. For instance, I liked the 1e 'fat' Mammon, rather than the 2/3e 'Geryon copycat' version. And I liked bugeyed Baalzebul over the slug. I'm not sure I like Glasya being the one who took over the layer though. And I do agree that the overlap between Glasya and Fierana is hard to distinguish in the FC. Something...fiercer wouldn't have been out of line. Although, we still only have two female lords with Astarte/Zariel gone. Or one and a half, depending on how you feel about Fierana. It wouldn't hurt to unseat a few more of the males.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 03-09-07, 02:28 AM	I hated that old crone, Malagarde...It always bugged me that she wasn't a devil. And what was so vile about her? She had black wings and a fiery horse, EVIL! Glasya's way better IMHO, plus her picture doesn't expel the contents of my stomach.
PunkRockBard 03-09-07, 10:31 AM	The illustration of The Hag Countess in BOVD was utterly repulsive....my stomach turns when i see it...and i can almost smell her rotten breath just by looking at it. It is one of the best illustrations. It did its job well.
zook1shoe666 03-09-07, 10:40 AM	The illustration of The Hag Countess in BOVD was utterly repulsive....my stomach turns when i see it...and i can almost smell her rotten breath just by looking at it. It is one of the best illustrations. It did its job well. i agree, thats one of the minor reasons i liked her an archdevil.
tenacious_kev 03-10-07, 10:38 PM	I'm glad she's dead, they needed to have a devil ruling. Geryons going to come back sooner or later, because he was the only lord that backed asmodius during the reckoning.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 11:03 PM	Geryons going to come back sooner or later, because he was the only lord that backed asmodius during the reckoning. Asmodeus killed and devoured him. He's so incredibly dead.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-11-07, 01:25 AM	Asmodeus killed and devoured him. He's so incredibly dead. I always thought his fate was sad. I really liked him, a lot more than the nu-Mammon they brought in to replace him.
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 01:07 PM	Asmodeus killed and devoured him. He's so incredibly dead. ??? When did that happen?
ripvanwormer 03-11-07, 08:08 PM	??? When did that happen? Tome of Magic, page 32. Confirmed in the FC2.
RavinRay 03-11-07, 08:14 PM	Geryon's sad history after his fall is recounted in Tome of Magic, where he is reduced to a vestige. He cane be summoned by pact magic. Fortunately, he's among the previews listed at Wizard's website; click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4).
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 08:19 PM	:( That poser is the 3-headed Geryon whose cattle Hercules stole. Certainly not my beloved snake bodied Lord of the 5th.
crimsonwolf 03-11-07, 09:50 PM	lets have a marloth in charge still thou ... would be nice
AngelofCthulhu 03-12-07, 10:35 AM	:( That poser is the 3-headed Geryon whose cattle Hercules stole. Certainly not my beloved snake bodied Lord of the 5th. No, that is the Geryon of the 5th. Their forms have be known to shift when they become a visage (awesome idea by the way, binding is so much fun)
Kain Darkwind 03-12-07, 12:34 PM	No, that is the Geryon of the 5th. Their forms have be known to shift when they become a visage (awesome idea by the way, binding is so much fun) I refuse to accept that. :) There are two Geryons. Oh well, in the DF cosmology he's still alive. I can content myself with that small consolation.
bluemage55 03-12-07, 02:09 PM	I for one like the change. It always bugged me that one of the rulers of the layers was a hag. Given the bent of law towards conformity, I always found the Hag Countess to stick out like a sore thumb.
Deadly_Nightshade 03-16-07, 07:15 AM	The manner the change was made was very interesting though i would have preferred to have someone else being killed off. I found the Hag was a good alternative to the vixens we ususally see in Baator(Glasya & Fierna especially). She could have been the start of an incursion of the Yugoloths in the Nine Hells ince she was neutral evil. But they decided otherwise. Anyway, as it's been said before, Glasya didn't actually killed her but put her to pieces (kalagons) that try so hard to get together and reform. So we can assume she may eventually re-appear someday in one way or another. I always found Glasya more interesting than Fierna, and even more so now that they decided Fierna had to be of the valley-girl type (pukes!). Glasya has to get revenge on Levistus for killing Bensozia and that can definitely make an interesting storyline though a classic one. Plus it's refreshing to find a female among the arch-Dukes; the she-devils are often at best consorts. As for Geryon, he's been utterly destroyed and his life essence has been given to power up Glasya as far as i recall. I just wished Cozbi was still alive though. She could have been an interesting character.
ripvanwormer 03-16-07, 12:49 PM	She could have been the start of an incursion of the Yugoloths in the Nine Hells ince she was neutral evil. The Hag Countess was lawful evil, like all of the Lords of the Nine.
Deadly_Nightshade 03-16-07, 07:47 PM	The Hag Countess was lawful evil, like all of the Lords of the Nine. I assumed she was neutral evil because she was a night hag and night hags are NE but if it weren't the case forget what i said.
Witch 03-16-07, 08:10 PM	I assumed she was neutral evil because she was a night hag and night hags are NE but if it weren't the case forget what i said. Lord of the Nine would sort of trump racial alignment.
ForgottenImmortal 03-17-07, 03:20 AM	So does anyone use lilith from DF? I found her flavor much better than that hag but Asmos daughter might be intresting. One thing to remember nothing happens in hell that asmo or the evil overlord doesnt want to happen. Perhaps he planned the hags fall and will use it to his ultimate goal of controling the cosmos. Maybe she was a test for his daughter all along seeing if she could remove a lord of nine without his help. Does this mean lixier may soon get his own layer too? I could see lixier taking levithan's layer. I hope nothing happens to mephesto he is my favorite lord of nine i think asmo keeps him around because mephesto know he cant beat the overlord and it torments him so... freaking evil overlord is so mean.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-07, 04:10 AM	Does this mean lixier may soon get his own layer too? Lixer is fan created.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 09:54 AM	Lord of the Nine would sort of trump racial alignment. Also, she might have not even been a Night Hag.
zook1shoe666 03-17-07, 05:47 PM	Also, she might have not even been a Night Hag. i'm pretty sure she was one, though
Kain Darkwind 03-18-07, 12:26 AM	Lixer is fan created. Shem's right. Lixer is a Dicefreak original creation, not a Wizards of the Coast one. At this point he doesn't exist at all in Wizards of the Coast published material.
BOZ 03-22-07, 03:41 PM	I assumed she was neutral evil because she was a night hag and night hags are NE but if it weren't the case forget what i said. IIRC, in BoVD she was listed as LE in alignment - however, she did not have the lawful subtype, unlike the other archdevils.
PunkRockBard 03-22-07, 05:48 PM	IIRC, in BoVD she was listed as LE in alignment - however, she did not have the lawful subtype, unlike the other archdevils. Well...she is given a LE alignment, but her bio states that, due to her NE origins, she is more aloof and unpredictable than the other archfiends. My own interpretation of this is that, at heart, she was still neutral evil. She played by the rules of Baator to perfection...which assisted her in ascending to a Lord (tho that did backfire on her).
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 10:04 AM	Here's a simple fix... Mephistopheles destroyed those treacherous court members utterly... ...Then, he promoted some replacements and gave them all the exact same names as a sick personal joke. Sounds evil enough. Anything new on Dispater BTW? It seems everyone else is playing their intrigues like they're it's a sultan's harem over there.
Evil DM Mk3 03-23-07, 10:10 AM	Sounds evil enough. Anything new on Dispater BTW? It seems everyone else is playing their intrigues like they're it's a sultan's harem over there. He seesm to have gotten spooked and decided to ensure his saftey by allaing with everyone. He wants everyone on his side, in hell...
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 10:19 AM	He wants everyone on his side, in hell... Good thing he's ageless - I don't see that happening anytime soon :D .
Singer_of_the_Song 03-23-07, 01:36 PM	Good thing he's ageless - I don't see that happening anytime soon :D . He's just chilling with his beefy triple-iron construct.