Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Infinitum 04-21-07, 05:49 PM	Alright, I'm curious, what do you guys/girls think makes something a deity? Does it have to be full-blooded deity, or do you consider quasi and demi to be included in this definition as well? In my opinion, the term "deity" means that the subject in question has to be entirely or at least mostly divine. A deity also has to have the ability to grant clerical powers to worshipers. Although the rulebook states that quasi deities are rank 0 deities, I'm not positive that is an accurate assessment. Give me your thoughts. This isn't about who is right or wrong, I just want to see what you people think. By the way, I do encourage discussions over small statements, that way things get fleshed out a little bit. Speak your mind but no flame wars, keep it simple and somewhat civil. Cheers :)
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-07, 07:12 PM	Loosely speaking, I'd run with a true deity being something capable of granting divine magic to its worshippers, and being empowered (and in many cases created) by the worship of its believers. I'd include demigods here, but not so-called hero or quasi-gods. My definition would not include archfiends and other planar powers than can grant "divine" magic, but are not sustained by mortal worship (and don't benefit from it in the same way).
Damior 04-21-07, 07:13 PM	For my own setting, I tend to ignore Greater, Intermediate, Lesser, Demi categorizations, mainly becasue a particular deity in my campaign is fairly widely worshipped, but no one knows what its true power is, and also that the categories really have no effect in game. Doing away with the categories helps solve the "My god could smite your god" arguments that come up from time to time. back on topic, I generally give the title "Deity" to anything that would have a divine rank of 1 or above should I ever decide to stat them. Quasi deities dont count.
Infinitum 04-21-07, 08:23 PM	Thanks for the input guys. Keep it coming. I have another question to add on to this: Would you deem it acceptable for a wizard to be able to call, say, a Hecatoncheires with the spell Gate, assuming he had the capability of supporting it?
Igfig 04-21-07, 10:36 PM	I usually define a deity as "Any being with a divine rank" and reserve the term "god" for those beings who are supported by mortal worship and grant divine spells. (It must be mentioned, however, that few of the NPCs in my campaigns follow my nomenclature.) And yes, I'd say a wizard can Gate anything he's high-enough level to access, unless they're in a place that cannot be accessed by normal mortal magic. For instance, if there were only one Hecatoncheires in your campaign world, and he was confined to an area of antimagic, any attempts to Gate him would fail. Similarly, pseudonatural creatures cannot usually be called, since connections to the Far Realm are few and far between and generally require an epic spell to create. Still, if you can make the DC 62 Knowledge check to learn of a hecatoncheires' existence, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to Gate one in. You can even control it, if you're level 26 or higher and abominations do not count as unique creatures in your campaign. Hell, you can even Gate in deities. You can't control them, but I doubt Erythnul would mind if you dropped him into a horde of slaughterable creatures.
Infinitum 04-21-07, 11:41 PM	The thing is, you can't control deific creatures through the spell Gate. Abominations are considered rank 0 deities, and therefore, under normal circumstances, you would not be able to control them. However, the term "deity" can be judged many different ways. Would you consider a quasi deity to be a deity? Personally, I would not consider them as such because they do not possess the seemingly vital traits that compose a deific being (giving clerical powers to worshipers, divine auras, divine attack bonuses and defense bonuses, portfolios, the general ability to warp reality in some sense). On the Hypertext d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank1-5) this is noted about demigods: "These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities.". How can demigods, rank 1 deities, be weaker than rank 0 deities unless rank 0 deities are not actually considered deities in their own right? Excluding the creature description of the Hecatoncheires which are incorrectly denoted as pantheon-shattering beings, there is no evidence that this is the case. It is unprecedented that a lower rank deity may overcome a higher rank deity in direct confrontations, and it is no different when comparing Abominations with any other "deific" being. The thing that makes an Abomination an Abomination is the fact that it is sparked from a divine essence: the union between a deity and a lesser idea or creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm). This is what gives the Abominations the distinction as quasi or "hero" deities, and this is completely false in the sense that they have virtually no relation with deific energies other than that which created them. They are unwanted, unloved, and uncared for by their progenitors, and are only connected through the matriarchal bond that they share. If you believe that because they are the offspring of deities that they are deities themselves, the Seven Sisters are worth noting. They were birthed by Mystra after she possessed the body of a man's wife and seduced the husband. They are not considered deities by any means, so why would the uncared for refuse be granted that honor? I'm sorry about the rant, I just wanted to express my own opinion and see what others thought about it. Pick it apart, analyze it, and see how viable it would be in official errata. I'm not too worried about DM discretion and all that jazz, I'm just curious if that argument holds water. Be honest and open, and I appreciate all the feedback you guys can give me :)
adgramaine 04-21-07, 11:55 PM	Deities in my campaign are defined as abstract entities given anthropomorphic form through the act of worship. They must be able to grant divine spells, and they gain their strength from the prayers and belief in their own existence. Without prayer, they begin to loose strength (Divine ranks). Without acknowledgment (base belief), the deity cannot have an impact within that realm (and can only interact with the realm by sending avatars or manifesting personally, thereby reducing their power to that of Divine Rank 0 (which, is still impressive enough to garner some respect and possibly cause worshipers to begin cropping up. But hey, it works for my game, home-brewed setting and all. Oh, and Infinitum... I say there is a distinction between divine beings and demigods (Divine Rank 0 and 1). That distinction, however, is up to the DM to define. :grin: I've never used abominations before though. So how they fit into the comic mess of it all I can't say, even from my own game's slant of things.
sciborg2 04-22-07, 01:17 AM	Deities are living symbols as noted in On Hallowed Ground iirc. To me this makes sense, as a symbol with identity and purpose brings its own flavor to a particular portfolio. Rather than worshippers, gods depend on their particular flavor, or something close to it, being practiced or extant. Planar lords have more power from their respective alignments but they also are limited in that they are tied to their planes. I prefer to not let them have divine worshippers save for PrCs and scatterings of favored souls.
Daydreamer 04-22-07, 02:31 AM	to avoid a theology debate id say 'deity' is a classification type like 'dragon' or 'undead' All deities posses incredible power, and are often worshipped to such an extent by mortal followers that there viewpoint and philosophy on the world is seen as the underlying meaning of existence.
Mirtek 04-22-07, 07:01 AM	I just go with the DDG glossary: A deity is anything with a divine rank (0-20) So if you use ELH together with DDG and abominations become DvR 0, they can not be controlled by spells like gate and anything else that does not affect deities.
Naderion 04-22-07, 08:35 AM	In my campaign, deities are just dieties. They are unlike everything else and are beings of pure thougt generated by mortal minds. It's even hard where one deity ends and the other begins. They are a cause given sentience. Something either is a god or is not, but there is no point where a creature is mortal before and divine after in this world. I think it adds a different theme to the world than greek-like gods, that are basically just very powerfull outsiders.
Redja_the_Foolish 04-22-07, 10:59 AM	A deity is in my vocabulary a self aware sentient and powerful being without any biological functions or needs who can grant divine spells, gifts and powers to their servants such as but not limited to mortals but which is unaffected by belief and worship of mortals. A mortal can in my version become deities either by being granted godhood by another deity or by ascending their mortal state and "reaching perfection" or "evolving" into a divine being through magical or supernatural means. A deity who wants to procreate must according to this world view either use an avatara or some form of corporeal body if he or she want to do procreate the old fashioned way but more likely the child is changed by the deity in the soul and not in the mortal body. Thus a child of a God is not created mainly through biological reproduction but are changed spiritually by the powers of the God and can be said to be an infusion of divine power. This type of deity does not become stronger if mortals believe in said deity and does not become weaker if the God lose followers. Thus a deity is not fueled by the belief of mortals and most deities existed long before the first mortals appeared and are not shaped by the belief of mortals. A being which is extremely powerful such as the Arch Fiends are not deities but Powers which is the polite expression for something which is very powerful but not really a deity.
Rocketboy13 04-22-07, 01:30 PM	Strictly speaking, Quasi and Demi mean "not quite" so you could say that they are godlike, but not gods in and of themselves. I also think that since you can gain divine spells without having to whorship a diety it is arbitrary to say that a diety needs to be able to grant you spells to be a true god, and it is also a little strange to say they must draw strength from their whorshipers, as there is nothing in the rules that say that they do (they might, but they might not, accepting whorship might just be part of their own ego trips, as Boccob doesn't care about his whorship, being the magnanimous god that he is.)
CryoSilver 04-22-07, 02:06 PM	By the rules, anything with DVR 0-20 is a deity, though I tend to exclude DVR 0, since they can't do most of the things the other DVRs can.
Bob the Efreet 04-22-07, 11:19 PM	Loosely speaking, I'd run with a true deity being something capable of granting divine magic to its worshipers, and being empowered (and in many cases created) by the worship of its believers. I'd include demigods here, but not so-called hero or quasi-gods. My definition would not include archfiends and other planar powers than can grant "divine" magic, but are not sustained by mortal worship (and don't benefit from it in the same way). I'd go with the second half of your definition here, about being empowered by worship. The first part I find unnecessary, especially as I'd like to popularise the idea of clerics who don't require gods for power. I don't expect them to be a majority (the powers would have something to say about that, I think), but I like the idea that it's faith which grants divine magic, rather than a deity.
Return of the Flumph 04-22-07, 11:48 PM	In game terms, a deity is any creature with a Divine Rank of 1 or higher. DVR 0 creatures are sort of the transitional stage between the mortal and the divine.
Redja_the_Foolish 04-23-07, 06:42 AM	Having deities rely on the worship and belief of mortals means either: 1: The Gods cannot have created any mortals because they are created and fueled by belief of said mortals and didn't exist before mortals believed in them. Alternatively they existed but became true Gods when mortals began believing in them and worshiping them(see Small Gods by Terry Pratchett). or 2: The Gods created the mortals but after creating them tied themselves to the worship and belief of the created mortals likely due to reasons of power balance. This should be noted is a really stupid idea since limiting your powers to mortal belief is just a too great vulnerability. By exterminating all the worshipers of the deity the God lessen or weaken or ceases to exist. Assassinating Gods have never been easier. Personally I do not like the most common fantasy idea that deities are tied to the belief of mortals and the amount of believers they have. That idea means that if I can get enough people to believe in my left sock or other insane things it can become a deity of socks. Thus if I get enough believers I can create the holy stick deity of sticks and poking and poking infidels in the eye with a holy pointed stick.
Mirtek 04-23-07, 11:59 AM	In game terms, a deity is any creature with a Divine Rank of 1 or higher. DVR 0 creatures are sort of the transitional stage between the mortal and the divine. In game terms a deity is any creature with a Divine Rank of 0 or higher. See DDG, page 6 While DvR0 is indeed the weakest form and more of a transitional stage, a being with DvR is already considered a deity as far as the game rules are concerned.
Infinitum 04-23-07, 05:04 PM	Having deities rely on the worship and belief of mortals means either: 1: The Gods cannot have created any mortals because they are created and fueled by belief of said mortals and didn't exist before mortals believed in them. Alternatively they existed but became true Gods when mortals began believing in them and worshiping them(see Small Gods by Terry Pratchett). or 2: The Gods created the mortals but after creating them tied themselves to the worship and belief of the created mortals likely due to reasons of power balance. This should be noted is a really stupid idea since limiting your powers to mortal belief is just a too great vulnerability. By exterminating all the worshipers of the deity the God lessen or weaken or ceases to exist. Assassinating Gods have never been easier. Personally I do not like the most common fantasy idea that deities are tied to the belief of mortals and the amount of believers they have. That idea means that if I can get enough people to believe in my left sock or other insane things it can become a deity of socks. Thus if I get enough believers I can create the holy stick deity of sticks and poking and poking infidels in the eye with a holy pointed stick. Originally deities were independent of mortal worship. During the Time of Troubles however, Ao dictated that deities would be bound to the mortals that serve them through their belief, tying their powers to mortals.
Infinitum 04-23-07, 05:20 PM	In game terms a deity is any creature with a Divine Rank of 0 or higher. See DDG, page 6 While DvR0 is indeed the weakest form and more of a transitional stage, a being with DvR is already considered a deity as far as the game rules are concerned. So the Seven Sisters are deities? Doubtful. There is even a prestige class that gives you a DVR of 0 at the end (I forget what its called). Although I agree that creatures with a DVR 0 have a small spark of the divine, to say that everything with a DVR of 0 is a deity isn't necessarily true. The Hypertext d20 SRD states "Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has". It doesn't state however that only deities have a divine rank. All it says is that deities have them, not that they have exclusive access. You may disagree with me, but I'm just putting that in as something else to think about.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-23-07, 05:43 PM	Originally deities were independent of mortal worship. During the Time of Troubles however, Ao dictated that deities would be bound to the mortals that serve them through their belief, tying their powers to mortals. 1) That only applies to gods worshipped on Toril. Ao can't dictate to gods who don't have a divine presence on Toril itself. 2) Gods worshipped on Toril still needed worship prior to the Time of Troubles. Amaunator of the Netherese pantheon withered away and died due to lack of worship, and his petrified corpse is currently drifting within the Astral as a direct consequence. Ao's actions during the ToT just formalized more directly that worshipper representation was going to count more in terms of a god's status on Toril in terms of demi/lesser/intermediate/greater distinction.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-23-07, 05:53 PM	Having deities rely on the worship and belief of mortals means either: 1: The Gods cannot have created any mortals because they are created and fueled by belief of said mortals and didn't exist before mortals believed in them. Not necessarily. The Seldarine are said to have created elves, and if that's true, then the Seldarine would have existed in an earlier form, probably part of a previous pantheon, and only after having themselves been created by the worship of an earlier race/culture of mortals did they at a later point create elves. You can have gods that create mortals, but ultimate the first gods are going to have been created de-novo by mortal faith and belief. Some gods may have also existed prior to becoming gods, either as outsiders, or more likely as mortals themselves who were elevated by institutionalized deification of rulers or ancestor worship by the mortal culture they came from. This should be noted is a really stupid idea since limiting your powers to mortal belief is just a too great vulnerability. By exterminating all the worshipers of the deity the God lessen or weaken or ceases to exist. Assassinating Gods have never been easier. And it has happened before. Slaughter all of a gods worshippers, ravage their world till it's nothing but sterile ash, and watch a god starve. The fiends have enjoyed that on at least one occasion. I also wouldn't say that a god formed of mortal belief has any choice in the matter of being tethered to their faithful or not. They're a sentient gestalt of mortal faith; the hopes, fears and dreams of mortals given form in a much more refined form than the fiends/celestials/etc. They're mortal conceptions of universal concepts empowered and given a life of their own.
Daydreamer 04-23-07, 07:21 PM	i always hated the idea that gods would be tied to followers and in my game i completely ignore that. There could be gods with no interest in having followers who merely do there thing on the larger platform of the universe.
Witch 04-23-07, 07:33 PM	i always hated the idea that gods would be tied to followers and in my game i completely ignore that. There could be gods with no interest in having followers who merely do there thing on the larger platform of the universe. And they would be archfiends, as well as neutral and good equivalents of them. Not gods ;) There is often an issue with the interpretation of "god". People tend to confuse the concepts "god" and "creature which is nigh equal in power to a god". Yes - there are creatures that have the same level of power as a god, yet do not require worship, but they're not gods.
Daydreamer 04-24-07, 02:11 AM	And they would be archfiends, as well as neutral and good equivalents of them. Not gods ;) There is often an issue with the interpretation of "god". People tend to confuse the concepts "god" and "creature which is nigh equal in power to a god". Yes - there are creatures that have the same level of power as a god, yet do not require worship, but they're not gods. im aware of this, i still ignore it though. In fact i dont believe its cannon outside of fearun....the dieties and demigods im told doesnt expressely say it.
sciborg2 04-24-07, 02:32 AM	DDG expressly notes that gods in the core don't depend on worshippers - at least not completely.
Bob the Efreet 04-24-07, 02:51 AM	1: The Gods cannot have created any mortals because they are created and fueled by belief of said mortals and didn't exist before mortals believed in them. To quote the Borg Queen, "You think in such three-dimensional terms." I think it's entirely possible for mortals to create a deity, who created said mortals.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-24-07, 03:02 AM	DDG expressly notes that gods in the core don't depend on worshippers - at least not completely. DDG also states that Set is CE and allied with Apep. ;)
Witch 04-24-07, 06:06 AM	DDG also states that Set is CE and allied with Apep. ;) I knew there had to be a major reason I got rid of that book. This must be it.
Senko 04-24-07, 06:54 AM	Personally I tend to view it as a 1-20 divine rank = a god but that they have differen't race's i.e. that is you have different types of gods. Generally I divide them into 3 categories. 1) Created gods these are beings that are born as a result of worship and require it in the same way people require food. The greater the belief in them the stronger and more powerful they become likewise if people stop believing they lose power normally (there are ways for them to sustain themselves and go beyond the need for mortal support but achieving its as rare as a mortal ascending to divinity, these ones who don't need worshipers are the overdeities). Note the belief that spawns them can come from a range of sources and it doesn't necessarily have to be a nice thing. If enough beings belive there's a dark god who devours all children that don't go to bed by nightfall one can be created. Or if a tribe believes strongly enough in a god of the forest one might be born as a giant wolf. These gods tend to take the form that the belief assigns to them whether a ball of light, a natural creature or some alien being. 2) Ascended gods these are beings who through one means or another (eating ambrosia, raised up by another god, meditating on a mountain for 8 thousand years) have slipped the bounds of mortality and become a god in their own right. These ones don't rely on mortals for sustanance but because of that tend to remain at a fairly constant power level since they don't know how to feed on worship as a source of power. They tend to retain the form they had to begin with as its what they're most comfortable with. 3) Born gods these are beings who are born as a result of a god laying down with a mortal/immortal/god. These are largely the same as ascened gods but have their powers from birth and may take a long time to fully grasp them. Again they tend to retain the form they're born in as its what they're most comfortable with.
Mirtek 04-24-07, 12:14 PM	So the Seven Sisters are deities? Since they do not have DvR 0 they're not deities. Doubtful. There is even a prestige class that gives you a DVR of 0 at the end (I forget what its called). Dragon Ascendant or something like that. But this supplement (Draconomicon) doesn't use DDG rules. If you use DDG rules with this PrC a 10th level dragon ascendant is a deity. Although I agree that creatures with a DVR 0 have a small spark of the divine, to say that everything with a DVR of 0 is a deity isn't necessarily true. The Hypertext d20 SRD states "Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has". It doesn't state however that only deities have a divine rank. All it says is that deities have them, not that they have exclusive access. You may disagree with me, but I'm just putting that in as something else to think about. The SRD does not contain all of the rules. You may disagree all you want, but DDG defines what is a deity and what is not on page 6. Deities&Demigods, page 6, The Divine Glossary: Deity: A god. Deities have from 0 to 20 divine ranks. Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks.
sciborg2 04-24-07, 12:18 PM	I like your break down Senko.
Infinitum 04-24-07, 05:21 PM	Since they do not have DvR 0 they're not deities. Dragon Ascendant or something like that. But this supplement (Draconomicon) doesn't use DDG rules. If you use DDG rules with this PrC a 10th level dragon ascendant is a deity. The SRD does not contain all of the rules. You may disagree all you want, but DDG defines what is a deity and what is not on page 6. Deities&Demigods, page 6, The Divine Glossary: Deity: A god. Deities have from 0 to 20 divine ranks. Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. I didn't say that I necessarily disagreed. I just gave something to think about. The Seven Sisters were born from Mystra while she temporarily possessed a human woman for that reason. She seduced the woman's husband: the union between a deity and a lesser creature. That is what makes a quasi deity, the union between a deity and a lesser creature or idea. Thus the Seven Sisters, having Mystra as one of their progenitors, would essentially be quasi deities. But they aren't. Thats my point. I don't care if you agree, I'm just saying it as something to think about. I don't care what the DDG book says. That's the point of this topic: To see what you think, not what is written in some book. I know what it says, but it doesn't necessarily make sense nor does everyone agree with it. I apologize if I came off strong in this post, but in all honesty you came off strong in your post as well. I don't want a flame war here, but I don't like it when someone runs to a book and says something, even though it really isn't what was being sought. It's your opinion, not "I can answer this question". If it's your opinion, great, but don't ignore other people's opinions as well.
Prime32 04-24-07, 05:39 PM	You could say a creature with a divine rank is an "immortal", a creature with the capacity to become a god. Only an immortal can contain the spark of godhood - creatures with DvR 1 or higher have this spark, DvR 0 creatures do not.
WarDragon 04-25-07, 01:29 AM	Senko: I like that, as well. Have you read any of the Immortal's Handbook, (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/) by Upper_Krust? Your ideas seem to mirror his breakdown of "Quintessence" (what makes a god a god) into Glory (gained through worship), Resonance (given by another being/area), and Power (either inborn, or taken by killing a god).
Senko 04-25-07, 02:24 AM	Nope I hadn't read that.
Luis_Dragunov 04-25-07, 08:17 AM	In my campaigns, I don't count DivR0 deities as Gods. Sure, they are divine but they're not gods. They're more like true angels - messengers of the actual deities. Kind of like Valkyres.
Senko 04-25-07, 09:50 AM	That works for me.