Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mystal the Illusionist 02-27-07, 08:18 PM	Ok just need some quick information if anyone can get em a better ruling. As i understand if you have a deity that has no levels in cleric/palidin/ranger/druid, then everything defaults to Divine rank for the spell level listings. Is this correct? I have been told that they have complete acess to the domains for spell access and use and granting. But As i read in the core book the spontanious casting is the same as cleric in the players handbook which is limited to the spell level of the cleric. If this is the case, are deities limited to thier power based on the same conditions as other player characters(aka spells per day charts)? If so then they can only grant domain and spells under the level that can acually access right? Example: Deity has access to clerical 1st level spells (the whole listing), with DvR1 if he had no actual levels in cleric. But he can grant this listing to his followers for thier dovotion. As for his domain powers will it be just the 1st level or because it is his domain part of the portfolio he has all access 1st thru 9th and can grant these also? I hope i have tried to give a good explaination of what i am looking for. Thank you Mystal
oracle71 02-27-07, 10:11 PM	I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but I'll see what I can do. One, a deity can grant any divine spell of any level to their worshippers, regardless of the caster level of the deity itself. So, a demigod that is a brb20/ftr20 can grant up to 9th level clerical spells (with domain spells) to it's clerics, even though it has a Divine rank of 1 and no spellcasting levels. Two, a deity can personally cast spells if it has levels in a spellcasting class. A greater god of divine rank 20 with one rank of cleric casts spells as a first level cleric, but it doesn't need to memorize the spells, because it can cast them all spontaneously (even though a mortal cleric can only spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells) Third, when using the granted power of a domain that the deity grants, if it has no cleric levels, then it uses it's divine ranks as it's effective cleric level. So, if our demigod brb20/ftr20 grants the destruction domain, then it can use the domain's smite power as if it had 20 levels of cleric for this purpose. Fourth, a deity can use it's domain spells as spell like abilities, with a caster level that is dependant on it's divine rank. Nothing prevents a deity with a very high cleric level from casting a domain spell as a regular spell, if it wishes to.
Mystal the Illusionist 02-27-07, 10:18 PM	So what your saying then is they have total access no mater what, even if they had level one cleric. To all 1st through 9th spells, and they can just spontaneously cast up to the 9th because of the divine rank? as per you example brb20/ftr20/clr01
oracle71 02-28-07, 09:14 AM	A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity casts spells as a level one cleric. He can cast the same number of spells per day as a first level cleric, gains bonus spells per day according to his wisdom score, and has a caster level of 1. So that deity can only cast first level spells. Because he is a deity, he can cast those first level spells spontaneously. A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 1 deity would have the same spellcasting ability. As would a 1st level human cleric. A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity can grant up to 9th level spells to his clerics, as long as his clerics are powerful enough to cast those spells. So, the 18th level high priest of our brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 1 deity can cast 9th spells, because he is an 18th level cleric, just as the 18th level high priest of our brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity can cast 9th level spells.
Mystal the Illusionist 02-28-07, 07:55 PM	Thank you, I appreciate all the input and it will definatly help in the next few session for this individual who was asking what he can give his followers and what he actually has himself. But the final question I now have to ask. We covered the deity with a level of Spellcaster (aka cleric level 1). Now lets say same deity with no cleric level. So now does the Divine Rank now act as the cleric level for personal spell casting and does the wisdom bonus still apply?
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 05:31 PM	I will take it that I was right on target with the Divine rank as the cleric level for spell casting then.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 07:56 PM	If the deity has no spellcasting ability (as from class levels), she cannot cast spells at all. She does, however, get certain spell-like abilities just for showing up, as mentioned in the SRD: A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will. The deity’s effective caster level for such abilities is 10 + the deity’s divine rank. The saving throw DC for such abilities is 10 + the spell level + the deity’s Charisma bonus (if any) + the deity’s divine rank. So the fighter 20/barbarian 20 with DvR 1 would have no spellcasting ability, clerical or otherwise. She would, however, be able to use any of her domain spells at will, with a caster level of 30. The DvR 1 version would have the same, but a caster level of 11.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 08:28 PM	Ok I understand It can cast any Domain Spell It can Grant, But it is stated, A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to Mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. But because of the Spontaneous casting it can cast any spell it can grant. What I am looking for is this. All spells are based on levels 1st through 9th. I understand that a Deity gets its domain powers, this is the power before the little spell list in that domain. The List is catagoized in levels. If the deity had a spellcaster level he gets whatever level for his spell caster level, which would include the spell listing for the domain powers. SO if the deity doesn't have spell caster level you mean to tell me they can still cast no mater what just because its in the domain? (1st through 9th) If this is true is it based on the Divine Rank as a suppelment to spellcaster level so it can go up the domain spell listing for each level of Divine Rank?
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 08:50 PM	You're not making sense, son. Spellcasting Casting: If a deity is a divine spellcaster, she can grant herself divine spells--which results in spontaneous casting. This is just like a regular cleric of her level, except for the spontaneous bit. Her caster level is her caster level. Spell-like Abilities: The deity gets all of her domain spells as spell-like abilities, usable at will. Her caster level for these spell-like abilities is 10 + DvR. This is a quality of her divinity, not her class levels. These two abilities are completely separate.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 08:59 PM	I am asking, if they do not have a spell caster level what so ever. Say the Deity is a Rogue Fighter class. Then do all the domain spells 1st thru 9th default to the Divine rank level. So it can progress up the spell list. If your saying that all domain powers are accessed, your telling me a Divine rank 1 Rogue Fighter type deity can cast a 9th level spell, with no caster levels at all just because its a deity. If this is the case this definatley make it possible for a low ranking deity to kick the butt of a large ranking deity because it can access all high level spells.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 09:10 PM	Yes, a DvR 1 deity can access all of her spell-like abilities, of all levels, as many times per day as she wants, without needing spellcasting class levels or spell slots.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 09:52 PM	Ok since this seems that i cannot express my total view on this, this is what i have to do. If what I am reading and what you all are telling me. A Divine Rank is the most powerful so don't take a class level because it limits you. You get all spells for everything just because your a god. This would be like Hurcules going with Jason and fighting eveyone while they sit back. Why because nothing can touch him. But also as you read on it says you cannot cast certain spells unless you have certain classes selected, but hey why should that matter you have all the divine powers that come with it anyway so you don't need those classes. So my solution is this: Whether or not you have the class level or divine rank that level is what level spells you can cast...the whole lists. This is a more logical to play due to the fact you can do this. A deity rogue/fighter with divine rank 1 gets the specific domain power for that domain and the 1st level power also. With that he also has all 1st level clerical spells. Now if he chose to add a clerical class to it he then also gets the extras to be cast per day. Now whats the difference between cleric level and dinine rank...absoulty nothing you get all those spells based on that divine rank level anyway. But heres one, what if he took wizard class? Now your just limited to the cast per day why? All divine rank is based on CLERICAL BASED CLASSES not ARCANE. So he cannot get all 1st level Wizards spells, he is limited to the per day and Int Mod. I see a lot of the deities in the guide that have HUGE caster level mods due to the combinations of the classes and divine rank. What I don't understand is why they have the classes listed for Deities if your not going to use the per day when all you have to do is be all powerful by divine nature and have it all. I really think there is some major loop holes in the rules that need to be addressed I am sorry to be so forward but I really think that the deities and demigods had the character creation concept in mind, I just think there is a loss in translation somewhere. And if I am wrong I appogize for starting this whole string. I just wanted to make it fair to a group that may have a demigod in thier presence and just let him destroy all while they sit back, doesn't make a good game system, enless there are limitations. All i was looking for what are the limitations. Once again If there is anything to support my theory i'd like the reference so i can look it up. If not I am definately going to have to make up my own system to make it fair to the lower gods as well as the larger.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 10:57 PM	No, you're still not getting it. A deity has at least 3 domains that she can grant. If you're using DF rules, more powerful deities get more, but all demigods have at least 3. The spells in those domains are spell-like abilities that the deity can use at will. So a DvR 1 demigod with domains Destruction, War, and Good has 27 specific spells that she can use as spell-like abilities at will, caster level 11--nine per domain. She also has three domain powers (a Weapon Focus feat, a smite ability that she can use a few times per day, and +1 caster level on Good spells). Now if that deity has, say, 40 cleric levels, she also has the ability to cast spells normally. These are determined as any other spellcaster, meaning she has a caster level of 40, and a certain number of spell slots. However, unlike her domain spell-likes, these can be whatever spells she wants. Because she's a deity, she can spontaneously cast any spell from the entire cleric spell list through these slots. This is in addition to the spell-likes she gets from her portfolio. So a deity with cleric levels is still a much better spellcaster than one without.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 11:00 PM	I am sorry to be so forward but I really think that the deities and demigods had the character creation concept in mind, I just think there is a loss in translation somewhere. And if I am wrong I appogize for starting this whole string. I just wanted to make it fair to a group that may have a demigod in thier presence and just let him destroy all while they sit back, doesn't make a good game system, enless there are limitations. The system was not designed for PCs. Gods were intended to be strictly NPCs. And it certainly wasn't designed to play well in mixed parties. I cna kind of see a party of equivalently-ranked PCs kicking around, but a god in a party of mere mortals can't help but outshine everyone else. Just grab a few uber-broke SDAs like Alter Reality and the rest of the party is worthless. Only an obscene ECL could balance it, and an ECL high enough would probably render the character unplayable (just based on the dynamics of comparative HD and whatnot).
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:24 PM	I see your point. As i continue the research to understand this new concept. I admit it can be perplexing. I am at this time looking at the Begger God In the back of the DDG to try to understand the deity concept and how this all works in the big scheme of things. What i don't understand at this point is how are the abilities jacked so high based on a first level rouge class. I couldn't find a page in the book that told me what the average ability scores are for a deity. But I do see now what you were all talking about the Domain powers, according to the example he has all the spells from 1st through 9th from all three domains. They are just listed as spell like abilities, but listed in the paragraph prior that he is limited to number times perday based on rank number. This still would definatly prove a good threat in any high level campaign adventure.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:31 PM	I can also see what you mean by the caster level enhancing the spells that are not covered from the domain power listing. And as so far as i see in the example in the back of the DDG, the begger god has no clerical spells what so ever except the domains. So in order to get them He would have to take the clerical class. Once he has then the whole listings can be passed on to Grant to whoever. With the exception of teh domain which he can already grant.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:42 PM	You Said: Now if that deity has, say, 40 cleric levels, she also has the ability to cast spells normally. These are determined as any other spellcaster, meaning she has a caster level of 40, and a certain number of spell slots. However, unlike her domain spell-likes, these can be whatever spells she wants. Because she's a deity, she can spontaneously cast any spell from the entire cleric spell list through these slots. This is in addition to the spell-likes she gets from her portfolio. Now are those all 1st thru 9th level like the domain spells she wouldn't be limited at all because of the spontaneous casting?
Mystal the Illusionist 02-27-07, 08:18 PM	Ok just need some quick information if anyone can get em a better ruling. As i understand if you have a deity that has no levels in cleric/palidin/ranger/druid, then everything defaults to Divine rank for the spell level listings. Is this correct? I have been told that they have complete acess to the domains for spell access and use and granting. But As i read in the core book the spontanious casting is the same as cleric in the players handbook which is limited to the spell level of the cleric. If this is the case, are deities limited to thier power based on the same conditions as other player characters(aka spells per day charts)? If so then they can only grant domain and spells under the level that can acually access right? Example: Deity has access to clerical 1st level spells (the whole listing), with DvR1 if he had no actual levels in cleric. But he can grant this listing to his followers for thier dovotion. As for his domain powers will it be just the 1st level or because it is his domain part of the portfolio he has all access 1st thru 9th and can grant these also? I hope i have tried to give a good explaination of what i am looking for. Thank you Mystal
oracle71 02-27-07, 10:11 PM	I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but I'll see what I can do. One, a deity can grant any divine spell of any level to their worshippers, regardless of the caster level of the deity itself. So, a demigod that is a brb20/ftr20 can grant up to 9th level clerical spells (with domain spells) to it's clerics, even though it has a Divine rank of 1 and no spellcasting levels. Two, a deity can personally cast spells if it has levels in a spellcasting class. A greater god of divine rank 20 with one rank of cleric casts spells as a first level cleric, but it doesn't need to memorize the spells, because it can cast them all spontaneously (even though a mortal cleric can only spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells) Third, when using the granted power of a domain that the deity grants, if it has no cleric levels, then it uses it's divine ranks as it's effective cleric level. So, if our demigod brb20/ftr20 grants the destruction domain, then it can use the domain's smite power as if it had 20 levels of cleric for this purpose. Fourth, a deity can use it's domain spells as spell like abilities, with a caster level that is dependant on it's divine rank. Nothing prevents a deity with a very high cleric level from casting a domain spell as a regular spell, if it wishes to.
Mystal the Illusionist 02-27-07, 10:18 PM	So what your saying then is they have total access no mater what, even if they had level one cleric. To all 1st through 9th spells, and they can just spontaneously cast up to the 9th because of the divine rank? as per you example brb20/ftr20/clr01
oracle71 02-28-07, 09:14 AM	A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity casts spells as a level one cleric. He can cast the same number of spells per day as a first level cleric, gains bonus spells per day according to his wisdom score, and has a caster level of 1. So that deity can only cast first level spells. Because he is a deity, he can cast those first level spells spontaneously. A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 1 deity would have the same spellcasting ability. As would a 1st level human cleric. A brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity can grant up to 9th level spells to his clerics, as long as his clerics are powerful enough to cast those spells. So, the 18th level high priest of our brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 1 deity can cast 9th spells, because he is an 18th level cleric, just as the 18th level high priest of our brb20/ftr20/clr01 divine rank 20 deity can cast 9th level spells.
Mystal the Illusionist 02-28-07, 07:55 PM	Thank you, I appreciate all the input and it will definatly help in the next few session for this individual who was asking what he can give his followers and what he actually has himself. But the final question I now have to ask. We covered the deity with a level of Spellcaster (aka cleric level 1). Now lets say same deity with no cleric level. So now does the Divine Rank now act as the cleric level for personal spell casting and does the wisdom bonus still apply?
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 05:31 PM	I will take it that I was right on target with the Divine rank as the cleric level for spell casting then.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 07:56 PM	If the deity has no spellcasting ability (as from class levels), she cannot cast spells at all. She does, however, get certain spell-like abilities just for showing up, as mentioned in the SRD: A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will. The deity’s effective caster level for such abilities is 10 + the deity’s divine rank. The saving throw DC for such abilities is 10 + the spell level + the deity’s Charisma bonus (if any) + the deity’s divine rank. So the fighter 20/barbarian 20 with DvR 1 would have no spellcasting ability, clerical or otherwise. She would, however, be able to use any of her domain spells at will, with a caster level of 30. The DvR 1 version would have the same, but a caster level of 11.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 08:28 PM	Ok I understand It can cast any Domain Spell It can Grant, But it is stated, A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to Mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. But because of the Spontaneous casting it can cast any spell it can grant. What I am looking for is this. All spells are based on levels 1st through 9th. I understand that a Deity gets its domain powers, this is the power before the little spell list in that domain. The List is catagoized in levels. If the deity had a spellcaster level he gets whatever level for his spell caster level, which would include the spell listing for the domain powers. SO if the deity doesn't have spell caster level you mean to tell me they can still cast no mater what just because its in the domain? (1st through 9th) If this is true is it based on the Divine Rank as a suppelment to spellcaster level so it can go up the domain spell listing for each level of Divine Rank?
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 08:50 PM	You're not making sense, son. Spellcasting Casting: If a deity is a divine spellcaster, she can grant herself divine spells--which results in spontaneous casting. This is just like a regular cleric of her level, except for the spontaneous bit. Her caster level is her caster level. Spell-like Abilities: The deity gets all of her domain spells as spell-like abilities, usable at will. Her caster level for these spell-like abilities is 10 + DvR. This is a quality of her divinity, not her class levels. These two abilities are completely separate.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 08:59 PM	I am asking, if they do not have a spell caster level what so ever. Say the Deity is a Rogue Fighter class. Then do all the domain spells 1st thru 9th default to the Divine rank level. So it can progress up the spell list. If your saying that all domain powers are accessed, your telling me a Divine rank 1 Rogue Fighter type deity can cast a 9th level spell, with no caster levels at all just because its a deity. If this is the case this definatley make it possible for a low ranking deity to kick the butt of a large ranking deity because it can access all high level spells.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 09:10 PM	Yes, a DvR 1 deity can access all of her spell-like abilities, of all levels, as many times per day as she wants, without needing spellcasting class levels or spell slots.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 09:52 PM	Ok since this seems that i cannot express my total view on this, this is what i have to do. If what I am reading and what you all are telling me. A Divine Rank is the most powerful so don't take a class level because it limits you. You get all spells for everything just because your a god. This would be like Hurcules going with Jason and fighting eveyone while they sit back. Why because nothing can touch him. But also as you read on it says you cannot cast certain spells unless you have certain classes selected, but hey why should that matter you have all the divine powers that come with it anyway so you don't need those classes. So my solution is this: Whether or not you have the class level or divine rank that level is what level spells you can cast...the whole lists. This is a more logical to play due to the fact you can do this. A deity rogue/fighter with divine rank 1 gets the specific domain power for that domain and the 1st level power also. With that he also has all 1st level clerical spells. Now if he chose to add a clerical class to it he then also gets the extras to be cast per day. Now whats the difference between cleric level and dinine rank...absoulty nothing you get all those spells based on that divine rank level anyway. But heres one, what if he took wizard class? Now your just limited to the cast per day why? All divine rank is based on CLERICAL BASED CLASSES not ARCANE. So he cannot get all 1st level Wizards spells, he is limited to the per day and Int Mod. I see a lot of the deities in the guide that have HUGE caster level mods due to the combinations of the classes and divine rank. What I don't understand is why they have the classes listed for Deities if your not going to use the per day when all you have to do is be all powerful by divine nature and have it all. I really think there is some major loop holes in the rules that need to be addressed I am sorry to be so forward but I really think that the deities and demigods had the character creation concept in mind, I just think there is a loss in translation somewhere. And if I am wrong I appogize for starting this whole string. I just wanted to make it fair to a group that may have a demigod in thier presence and just let him destroy all while they sit back, doesn't make a good game system, enless there are limitations. All i was looking for what are the limitations. Once again If there is anything to support my theory i'd like the reference so i can look it up. If not I am definately going to have to make up my own system to make it fair to the lower gods as well as the larger.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 10:57 PM	No, you're still not getting it. A deity has at least 3 domains that she can grant. If you're using DF rules, more powerful deities get more, but all demigods have at least 3. The spells in those domains are spell-like abilities that the deity can use at will. So a DvR 1 demigod with domains Destruction, War, and Good has 27 specific spells that she can use as spell-like abilities at will, caster level 11--nine per domain. She also has three domain powers (a Weapon Focus feat, a smite ability that she can use a few times per day, and +1 caster level on Good spells). Now if that deity has, say, 40 cleric levels, she also has the ability to cast spells normally. These are determined as any other spellcaster, meaning she has a caster level of 40, and a certain number of spell slots. However, unlike her domain spell-likes, these can be whatever spells she wants. Because she's a deity, she can spontaneously cast any spell from the entire cleric spell list through these slots. This is in addition to the spell-likes she gets from her portfolio. So a deity with cleric levels is still a much better spellcaster than one without.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 11:00 PM	I am sorry to be so forward but I really think that the deities and demigods had the character creation concept in mind, I just think there is a loss in translation somewhere. And if I am wrong I appogize for starting this whole string. I just wanted to make it fair to a group that may have a demigod in thier presence and just let him destroy all while they sit back, doesn't make a good game system, enless there are limitations. The system was not designed for PCs. Gods were intended to be strictly NPCs. And it certainly wasn't designed to play well in mixed parties. I cna kind of see a party of equivalently-ranked PCs kicking around, but a god in a party of mere mortals can't help but outshine everyone else. Just grab a few uber-broke SDAs like Alter Reality and the rest of the party is worthless. Only an obscene ECL could balance it, and an ECL high enough would probably render the character unplayable (just based on the dynamics of comparative HD and whatnot).
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:24 PM	I see your point. As i continue the research to understand this new concept. I admit it can be perplexing. I am at this time looking at the Begger God In the back of the DDG to try to understand the deity concept and how this all works in the big scheme of things. What i don't understand at this point is how are the abilities jacked so high based on a first level rouge class. I couldn't find a page in the book that told me what the average ability scores are for a deity. But I do see now what you were all talking about the Domain powers, according to the example he has all the spells from 1st through 9th from all three domains. They are just listed as spell like abilities, but listed in the paragraph prior that he is limited to number times perday based on rank number. This still would definatly prove a good threat in any high level campaign adventure.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:31 PM	I can also see what you mean by the caster level enhancing the spells that are not covered from the domain power listing. And as so far as i see in the example in the back of the DDG, the begger god has no clerical spells what so ever except the domains. So in order to get them He would have to take the clerical class. Once he has then the whole listings can be passed on to Grant to whoever. With the exception of teh domain which he can already grant.
Mystal the Illusionist 03-01-07, 11:42 PM	You Said: Now if that deity has, say, 40 cleric levels, she also has the ability to cast spells normally. These are determined as any other spellcaster, meaning she has a caster level of 40, and a certain number of spell slots. However, unlike her domain spell-likes, these can be whatever spells she wants. Because she's a deity, she can spontaneously cast any spell from the entire cleric spell list through these slots. This is in addition to the spell-likes she gets from her portfolio. Now are those all 1st thru 9th level like the domain spells she wouldn't be limited at all because of the spontaneous casting?