Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LeuktheSavior 05-26-07, 09:19 PM	BoVD Demogorgon vs. BoVD Asmodeus. I dislike Demons personally, so my opinion is Biased, but If they were pit against each other but allowed to use all their abilities except to flee the arena of combat (which means they are allowed to summon, just not teleport out) Who honestly would win in your opinions?
Kesuk2k5 05-26-07, 09:47 PM	This hypothetical situation is so outright impossible and unlikely that, well... nevermind. If you simply must know, as if it would really matter... Demogorgon would likely act first and has more ground mobility, but Asmodeus has the ability to deliver hellfire continually, not to mention his greater ability of flight. Demogorgon's meager fire resistance wouldn't even protect him, and Asmodeus has the ability to repair ability damage from Demogorgon's rot. Strictly from the BoVD, Asmodeus has a low chance (but a chance nonetheless) to force Demogorgon's loyalty with Demand Submission. It would be a long battle, but with their stats looked through it appears Asmodeus would win.
sciborg2 05-26-07, 10:49 PM	Well, as it currently stands Asmodeus is incredibly powerful and gods bow to him, while Demogorgon is a monster with CR 27 I think. So yeah, Asmo wins in that case. If someone has their FC I & II handy they could assume Demogorgon from FC I is an aspect and then comparing both as aspects give us some idea. We could take this to a philosophical realm, but I don't know if the OP would want to do that since I'm assuming we're looking at stats. Besides, Tyranny vs Insanity is a hard call...
Johnny_Angel 05-26-07, 11:12 PM	I think Asmodeus would win without even fighting. IMO, he would somehow convince the two personalities within Demogorgon to fight against each other.
sciborg2 05-26-07, 11:40 PM	That would make Demogorgon stronger or lead to Asmo's defeat. What works against normal beings won't work against him. Not to mention the heads aren't stupid and will cooperate to fight Amso if necessary. Personally I think Asmo isn't so hot though...a Satan wannabe really...
Infinitum 05-26-07, 11:42 PM	Asmodeus is the ruler of the Nine Hells for a reason....
Kain Darkwind 05-27-07, 01:21 AM	Stat-wise, Asmodeus can summon 'two of any other devil' (other meaning "not a pit fiend") at will. And that was clarified in FC2 as meaning Lords of the Nine (or aspects of) as well. Round 1: Mephisto + Baalzebul Round 2: Glasya + Levistus Round 3: Beliel + Fierana Round 4: Mammon + Dispater Round 5: Bel (since he's a pit fiend, Asmodeus can only summon 1 of him) Don't think Demogorgon is going to win this one. Also if you are using 3.0 rules like BoVD does, harm leaves Demo with 1d4 hp.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-27-07, 01:30 AM	Round 5: Bel (since he's a pit fiend, Asmodeus can only summon 1 of him) Bel isn't a pit fiend. He used to be a pit fiend, but that was prior to his having deposed Zarial and before his rise as Lord of Avernus. At times he retains much of the outward form of that earlier status, but he has other avatar forms that are distinctly not pit fiend shaped. If Bel is a pit fiend because he used to be one, than Orcus is just a big balor because he used to be one. ;)
sciborg2 05-27-07, 01:31 AM	Stat-wise, Asmodeus can summon 'two of any other devil' (other meaning "not a pit fiend") at will. And that was clarified in FC2 as meaning Lords of the Nine (or aspects of) as well. God, I really hate some of the stuff in that book. :mad:
Kain Darkwind 05-27-07, 01:55 AM	Bel isn't a pit fiend. He used to be a pit fiend, but that was prior to his having deposed Zarial and before his rise as Lord of Avernus. At times he retains much of the outward form of that earlier status, but he has other avatar forms that are distinctly not pit fiend shaped. If Bel is a pit fiend because he used to be one, than Orcus is just a big balor because he used to be one. ;) No really, if you are using BoVD and 3.0, Bel is a double HD pit fiend. Nothing more, nothing less. :) But I had run out of Lords of the Nine anyway, so it was funnier saying that he saved him for last and by his lonesome because he can only summon 1 pit fiend at will.
DwarfPcfan 05-27-07, 11:00 AM	a few other things worth mentionning. First, Manual of the Planes and a few other sources claim that Asmodeus never actually appeared anywhere in physical form till he fell to the Nine Hells. His appearances would actually have been nonthing more than a very, verty, very advanced use of a power similar to project image. Not maybe it's just me but a Cr 32 project image with stats like that makes you think a lot about what Asmodeus real CR is.... If thats not true and that CR 32 Monster in BovD is really Asmodeus, he still creams DemoGorgon easy, first he summons any other lord of Hell to take the blows, then he starts Shooting that good old Hellfire and splashing his spelllike abilities around while his lieutenants give their all. Finally if he does run out of spell like abilities or Hellfire (Wich is never) before Demo Gorgon dies, he just whipes out his rod and starts clubbing that demonlord to death (his rod would be very effective against Demogorgon). Then and there Asmodeus wins...
The Serge7 05-27-07, 12:51 PM	Asmodeus. Which really makes no sense to me (and I love devils and prefer them over demons).
Nat_20 05-27-07, 01:14 PM	I like Demons more personally... but i have to agree, Asmodeus would bend Demogorgon over the table and jam a *&#$ up his !@%& and keep %$&ing it in his $%^ until the handle falls off... with out surgical gloves on...
XHereticX 05-27-07, 02:21 PM	That would make Demogorgon stronger or lead to Asmo's defeat. What works against normal beings won't work against him. Not to mention the heads aren't stupid and will cooperate to fight Amso if necessary. Personally I think Asmo isn't so hot though...a Satan wannabe really... More like Satan is a Asmodeus wannabe. Satan is just some jealous guy who fell just because he thought humans were too loved. And it really depends on in whose realms they are fighting in, what are the circumstances of the fight, and what is their motive in the fight. The BoVD stats by the way certainly do not represent their power but if we use them, then Asmo would destroy demogorgon.
sciborg2 05-27-07, 03:38 PM	personally, I've just felt for a long time that Asmo is given way too much power over the other Lords of Nine. Yes, the place it ordered and Asmo is the leader but to me it just doesn't feel right that he is that much stronger than the other Lords of Nine. Then again, I see the LoN as being different flavors of LE as McCob described in his 2e article for Planescape. These ideas of LE contest with each other constantly to see which one should represent the LE ultimately. The Lord of Nessus may be the highest LE being for the time being, but that is subject to change.
Witch 05-27-07, 03:45 PM	The other Lords of the Nine represent different flavors of LE. Asmodeus embodies pure LE, with no specific flavor attached. He is tyranny and damnation embodied. That's how I see him, at least - and it explains his superior position.
aushlo 05-27-07, 03:58 PM	Y'know, even as creatures of law, if Asmodeus summoned the other Lords to the fight, one of them may well get the idea that Prince of Demons po'd + any two Lords calling a truce for a few rounds could mean a new Big Man In Hell. Demogorgon is no slouch, and he'd basically be incredibly resilient cannon fodder. If I was a Lord, I'd telepathically talk to even a dire enemy if the Boss was so desperate as to summon me, and buff myself while Demo rips into him, then hit Asmodeus when he's weak. Any two Lords should be able to knock off Demogorgon once Asmodeus is gone and the Prnce of Demons is beaten up some. If Asmodeus was really smart, he'd gate in two Lords who both hate and fear each other enough to trust them not to come to blows OR cooperate. The uncertainty combined with paranoia and wanting to curry his favor would probably be just enough to get them to pitch in, but probably only briefly.
The Serge7 05-27-07, 06:00 PM	personally, I've just felt for a long time that Asmo is given way too much power over the other Lords of Nine. Yes, the place it ordered and Asmo is the leader but to me it just doesn't feel right that he is that much stronger than the other Lords of Nine. While some folks, like Upper_Krust, have a done a decent job in exploring Asmodeus and the rest of the Nine in his fashion, I've never agreed with the idea. Not saying the idea's wrong, per se, just that I don't buy it. Longevity and station in Hell work hand-in-hand with power, both political and "physical." Asmodeus as the strongest devil in Hell fulfills this status in all ways, as do the other Lords of the Nine more-or-less. Sure, physical power in Hell is not as important as that in The Abyss, but it is still important. Then again, I see the LoN as being different flavors of LE as McCob described in his 2e article for Planescape. These ideas of LE contest with each other constantly to see which one should represent the LE ultimately. The Lord of Nessus may be the highest LE being for the time being, but that is subject to change. While I think McComb's writing established the idea of diabolical portfolios, I don't know that he really went all that far into differentiating the various Lords in great depth. At best, their "portfolios" are motifs. Still, his work with the Lords of the Nine remain the best "official" in any edition. As for the Lord of Nessus' station being subject to change, I agree; however, I don't think it would be especially easy to unseat a sitting Overlord of Hell and that Asmodeus, at least as far as "official" histories go, has always and probably will always rule Hell.
Kihon 05-27-07, 10:15 PM	IMHO: As written: Asmodeus wins period. Even using "Dicefreaks" stats - longer battle perhpas, but ultimately Asmodeus wins. Demogorgon is an aspect of pure Chaos & Evil (Power) vs. Asmodeus Law & Evil (Planning) ---- Proper prior planning prevents p#@$ poor performance!
sciborg2 05-28-07, 01:20 AM	If Demogorgon is affect by his chaotic nature, then Asmodeus is encumbered by his rigidity in thinking a la his lawful nature. Even the NE 'loths are weakened because they can't plan as well as the baatezu and aren't as creative as the tanar'i.
retillin 05-28-07, 08:11 AM	I'm not saying it would really change the out come, but dont forget that Demogorgon is a master at arcane secrets and creating magical items. Who's to say that with Dargon's help he couldnt create something that is resistant to hellfire, and make him self totaly immune to fire. I think in the end Asmodeus would win, but I dont think Demogorgon would just fall over like everyone is saying. Just remember, CE does not equal stupid.
LeuktheSavior 05-28-07, 08:55 AM	I think Asmodeus would win on a one-on-one fight, but in reality if Asmodeus were to waltz into the abyss to destroy himself some demon princes, Every single demon lord would abandon their petty feuds with one another to take out Asmodeus. ObviouslyAsmodeus wouldnt be so dumb as to take the battle to Demogorgon, but if the battle were an assault on the abyss, Asmodeus would have his head handed to him by sheer numerical advantage.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 10:31 AM	I think Asmodeus would win on a one-on-one fight, but in reality if Asmodeus were to waltz into the abyss to destroy himself some demon princes, Every single demon lord would abandon their petty feuds with one another to take out Asmodeus. ObviouslyAsmodeus wouldnt be so dumb as to take the battle to Demogorgon, but if the battle were an assault on the abyss, Asmodeus would have his head handed to him by sheer numerical advantage. cept Graz'zt. And the demon lords would never unite over anything, it is against their nature.
DwarfPcfan 05-28-07, 10:41 AM	Y'know, even as creatures of law, if Asmodeus summoned the other Lords to the fight, one of them may well get the idea that Prince of Demons po'd + any two Lords calling a truce for a few rounds could mean a new Big Man In Hell. Demogorgon is no slouch, and he'd basically be incredibly resilient cannon fodder. If I was a Lord, I'd telepathically talk to even a dire enemy if the Boss was so desperate as to summon me, and buff myself while Demo rips into him, then hit Asmodeus when he's weak. Any two Lords should be able to knock off Demogorgon once Asmodeus is gone and the Prnce of Demons is beaten up some. If Asmodeus was really smart, he'd gate in two Lords who both hate and fear each other enough to trust them not to come to blows OR cooperate. The uncertainty combined with paranoia and wanting to curry his favor would probably be just enough to get them to pitch in, but probably only briefly. Uh, you don't become the Lord of Hell by being a poor manipulator. Asmodeus would definetly know who to gate in to ensure victory. He's smarter then most entities in the multiverse. He would'nt take the chance of somedy trying to usurp his power while he's beating the crap out of Demorgorgon. I also disagree, that a Lord of Hell would ally with a Demon to unseat Asmodeus. Every Lord of Hell is vying for that confortable chair of his but they would never ally with a Demonlord to achieve this victory. Devils are by definition the embodiement of LE and opposed by very concept to CE Demons, siding with Demogorgon would be a clear violation of the Ethos of Law. Why? because LE implies planning, unity, organization. While mounting a bloody political coup is standard LE behavior, Open treachery and Disobedience to a superior on the Battlefield is a clearly chaotic act and that would go against any Archdevils very nature. Wars between archdevils don't happen as open warfare but rather as political manipulations, finding loopholes into laws, creating secret alliances, increasing ones power to be accepted as the new lord of Hell, etc. Comparing battles between devils is like compairing Machiavelian venecian politics and a revolution in South America... Finally, for all the hate any Lord of Hell feels for Asmodeus, remember, they hate demons even more. Devils see themselves as the overlords of Evil in the Multiverse. Because of that no devil would allow himself to be shown up by a pathethic demon with an attitude (even if it is Demogorgon). Helping that demon against a devil would imply weakness. As well, what kind of overlord of tyranny and evil would tolerate the presence of a being of chaos in near him ? Yep the Nine Hells over the Abyss anyday...
sciborg2 05-28-07, 12:06 PM	Open treachery and Disobedience to a superior on the Battlefield is a clearly chaotic act and that would go against any Archdevils very nature. Even if that treachery required centuries of deliberate planning? Comparing battles between devils is like compairing Machiavelian venecian politics and a revolution in South America... Hardly. Chaos is easily capable of absorbing the concept of politics. Its like what they say of Pi, mathematicians are fascinated because it has no pattern which in a sense means it has every pattern. Finally, for all the hate any Lord of Hell feels for Asmodeus, remember, they hate demons even more. Devils see themselves as the overlords of Evil in the Multiverse. That's not how hate works. A personal hatred of Asmodeus and a desire for power might easily make them use demons as tools. Because of that no devil would allow himself to be shown up by a pathethic demon with an attitude (even if it is Demogorgon). Helping that demon against a devil would imply weakness. And millennia of being Asmo's lapdog doesn't? As well, what kind of overlord of tyranny and evil would tolerate the presence of a being of chaos in near him ? I think a brief truce with Xaos to kill Asmodeus would be fine, knowing the Xaos would be killed. Not that it matters, as really its impossible to determine the victor save by the everchanging stats these beings have. Not to mention is more a question if Asmodeus could take on the surviving great obyrith lords rather than the slave-laboring tanar'ri.
PunkRockBard 05-28-07, 12:14 PM	BoVD Demogorgon vs. BoVD Asmodeus. I dislike Demons personally, so my opinion is Biased, but If they were pit against each other but allowed to use all their abilities except to flee the arena of combat (which means they are allowed to summon, just not teleport out) Who honestly would win in your opinions? Anthraxus would walk in and turn them both into Larvae.
aushlo 05-28-07, 03:05 PM	Honestly, I think Asmodeus would be smart enough to know who to gate in to ensure victory in such an instance. I doubt frankly that any of this could or would ever happen. But one can't make the mistake of conflating Law with loyalty. Devils exist to be schemers. They're evil, they exploit and pervert law. They manipulate, backstab, and double-cross as long as they can find a loophole. Can a Demon plan? Yep. Can a Devil make clever use of Chaos? Yep. Is it playing to their strengths? Not neccesarily. But any being with Int that high and an evil nature will certainly be smart enough to take advantage of a chaotic situation. There is no law in hell that will keep another Lord from seeing an opportunity to take down Asmodeus AND Demogorgon in a single move. They aren't cooperating with the Prince of Demons, just using him briefly. The other things I'm seeing, looking as I just did at BoVD are pretty important (this is me actually reading game stats and caring for a sec, bear with me): Asmodeus is primarily a spell caster/tricky spell-like ability guy. Some important things to note: Demogorgon's initiatives' a tad higher. Which could be pretty important later. Demogorgon is actually SMARTER. (Int 31 vs. 30). Okay, Asmosdeus plots. So does Demogorgon. I say they cancel out each other's plans, or perhaps Demogorgon gets the edge. Also, Demogorgon is more capable of reacting to uncertainty, being Chaotic, and will come up with brilliantly mad plots himself that probably won't even occur to Asmo except as a stupid risk. Asmo's confidence will erode as plans and backups fall apart. Demogorgon isn't a spell caster. But he is nearly impervious to a lot of Asmodeus' abilities. Let's look: Asmo casts a spell/spell like ability: Before the save, he can't actually penetrate Demo's SR with half his abilities except on a 20. (SR 42, CL 20th). His abilities primarily are set up to affect the foe's Will, at DC 37, so Demo rolls a 6 (or less, depends on the spell/ability) to shrug off any of it. Also keep in mind Dual Actions, which let Demo Greater Dispel with one head while beating on Asmo with the other as a full-round action. Asmo has to effectively cast every round to even be in the fight, and they are on even footing for the caster level checks. Also, Demo can cast/dispel TWICE a round if needs be. Demo's abilities have a slight edge-Energy Drain should be nasty right quick once a couple of Dispels take down any negative resistance. Asmo needs to roll an 11 to remove levels. Keep in mind too that Demo has three possible gaze attacks, any of which require Asmo to roll an 8 to resist. Demo has the edge even on Will (which strikes me as a bit odd, but whatever). Then there's the Rot, again with a DC slightly harder for the Lord of Hell to shrug off than Asmo's abilities. The Ruby Rod is pretty useless-the enchantment isn't high enough to bypass DR, so it does 1d8+8 damage, and the spell effect fizzles due to Demo's SR. Also, Demo has a chance (fifty-fifty, Asmo's Attack Bonus is a lot better) to Improved Disarm it and then use it with Item Mastery. Here it is then: Dual Action and an edge in abilities mean Asmo is going to be extremely hard pressed to even get even footing in this fight, assuming Demo doesn't edge him out in Initiative and reserve a Dispel for every single thing he does with his second head. Asmo could simply never regain the offense, he would spend the whole time fighting defense. He can plan as much as he likes, but he wouldn't like the odds at all. He bows out before it starts. Dropped in a big gladiatorial pit together, I say Demo takes it. His one hope is the Demand Submission, which isn't terribly likely to work (if you were Asmo, would you take 1 in 4 odds? Not me). Like I said, if he gates in two other lords, maybe. But this is exactly the scenario in which another lord (any, really) can take him down without any effort. Demo will do half the work. Bear in mind, I'm assuming here that between spells and spell-like buffs as well as Dispels, our guys pretty much even out to be about where the books put them. I wouldn't want to be the bookkeeper in this particular fight, it would be crazy confusing. Asmodeus is simply too smart to get involved, as is Demogorgon. Once the Abyssal Hordes fall, he'll take on Demogorgon without his countless minions. But not today, if ever.
sciborg2 05-28-07, 03:12 PM	Personally I suspect that Demogorgon doesn't care a whit about Asmodeus. But if he does, he and Asmo both realized long ago that their races benefit from the Blood War. Both sides have to continually improve, especially if their forbearers (ancient baatorians and obyriths) ever decide to try and take back the night.
aushlo 05-28-07, 03:30 PM	Having typed all that... Under current rules, non-BoVD? Demogorgon's toast.
aushlo 05-28-07, 03:33 PM	Personally I suspect that Demogorgon doesn't care a whit about Asmodeus. But if he does, he and Asmo both realized long ago that their races benefit from the Blood War. Yup. Especially Asmodeus. Honestly, I think the Lords of Hell are realistic about it-they know they'll never win. I can see the Abyssal lords being daft enough to think they'll prevail eventually though. I see their 'hearts' being a bit more in it.
PunkRockBard 05-28-07, 06:40 PM	Speaking of.... i wonder what all the archfiends of Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths think of each other...if at all....what the relationship is.
retillin 05-28-07, 06:54 PM	Aushlo makes a GREAT point. Duel action. Acting two times a round is amazing. So good job Aushlo, you just changed my mind and now I'm putting my money on Demogorgon.
tenacious_kev 05-28-07, 10:35 PM	Asmodeus couldnt really summon all of the Lords of the Nine either because once demogordon was dead all of them would turn agienst asmodeus. And then if Asmodeus dies, all of the lords would start trying to kill each other.
Molimo 05-28-07, 10:36 PM	BoVD Demogorgon vs. BoVD Asmodeus. I dislike Demons personally, so my opinion is Biased, but If they were pit against each other but allowed to use all their abilities except to flee the arena of combat (which means they are allowed to summon, just not teleport out) Who honestly would win in your opinions? We'll never find out, because a Mature Adult force dragon might just wander along and eat both of them before they could put up a struggle.
ArcTan 05-28-07, 11:04 PM	Speaking of.... i wonder what all the archfiends of Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths think of each other...if at all....what the relationship is. They probably hate each other with an especial passion. That's the way with most Evil Powers. Specifically, Demon Princes probably want to f*** up the Devil Lords' s*** with a burning passion and see the 'loths as useful tools to that end. Devil Lords want to crush and conquer the Demon Princes with a burning passion and see the 'loths as useful means to that end. 'loths see Demon Princes and Devil Lords alike as useful means to whatever creepy secret ends they've got going.
Orodruin 05-29-07, 04:55 AM	They probably hate each other with an especial passion. That's the way with most Evil Powers. Specifically, Demon Princes probably want to f*** up the Devil Lords' s*** with a burning passion and see the 'loths as useful tools to that end. Devil Lords want to crush and conquer the Demon Princes with a burning passion and see the 'loths as useful means to that end. 'loths see Demon Princes and Devil Lords alike as useful means to whatever creepy secret ends they've got going. I never really saw it that way. Demons and devils may hate each other like anything, but it's more because they "have to" hate each other - because they fundamentally detest what the other represents (sort of how say, a pair of political left and right wing extremists would detest each other even if they'd never even met) - as opposed to the more personal, deeper kind of hatred that can only stem from complete familiarity. Demogorgon would hate Asmodeus on principle, but I'm pretty sure that's nothing compared to how he feels toward Orcus and Graz'zt. Now that level of hatred is personal! ;)
pratputajao 05-29-07, 01:02 PM	I tend to think that in BOVD 1-1 DG wins...thats 1-1 forget all the summoning. With summoning DG could never win. DG duel action allows alot of really interesting tactics that Asmo just doesnt have. Used correctly I dont see how people could think that Asmo would crush him.. All along in 3 ed I have found almost everything they have done with Demons and Devils to be kinda lame. First strip their leaders of any divinity. Why? So that ubber kewl power players could beat them thats why. But if thats the case how come they all havent allready been beaten? ...eh..next question... Remember in 1st ED all Lords of Abyss/Hell were lesser gods. And even the Demon lords that were legit gods- Yennaghoo, god of Gnolls, Demogorgon, god ixitxatchitals (sp?) had Divinity removed. Though they were Gods in 1st (and 2nd ED for the afforementioned) doent mean a thing- Zap they are now Moderatly powerful monsters (yes moderatly, look at the Epic book, then look at FC 1+2 for a good laugh). Then they take the weakest demon lord- Lolth (all 66HPs of her) and make her a god that could crush all other lords combined (well maybe not all but you get the pic), again done becouse The drow are just Super kewl!! Lastly take DG and make him Asmos B*tch in the FC series when originally DG was slightly superior to Asmo in EVERY way except psoinics (300 to 366, but DG could use two effects a round so not much if any better). Why? yet again becouse Asmo is basically Satan and Satan is Ubber Kewl, everyone knows that! Sheesh! Serously though BOVD was OK. DG was a minor force. Still too weak, he needed some Divine ranks, but as written moderatly impresive, as was Asmo. But when FC came out the laghing never stopped esp after seeing FC 2 and Asmo could wipe the floor with any demon, without any reason given (my answer given above works for me as there is nothing else) In the game we play DG is as originally put out- slightly more powerful- to make up for Asmo's ability to call any devil ( though in our game it is only once a year he can call one of the nine to do something like fight for him) We basically ignore most of what WOTC have to say on the subject as it makes no sence as it stands. Dicefreaks stuff though is much better and is more logical. I would recomend anyone not making up their own stats to use theirs. Really top notch stuff!
aushlo 05-29-07, 02:22 PM	Rereading the book in parts. Baalzebul is probably the best bet to take Demogorgon, followed by Dispater. The other lords are simply not scary enough to win unless some serious luck is on their side. I have to say I agree here... the demon princes are simply way too bloody weak as written in the FC's. Not like I'm likely to ever use them, but if I did I'd use BoVD stats. Seriously though, why the disparity between demons and devils? Devils are far less interesting for me personally. I mean, they're all pretty much scary dudes with horns and flamy darkness crap. FC2 helped a bit with that, but the Lords are still bor-rrring. Give me Demogorgon, Yeenoghu or Juiblex. First time I read the original MM1 when I was a kid, I remember my reaction to the demon princes being, "Eww, gross... COOL." Then I flipped distractedly through the devils. Meh. Heck, the Yugoloth lords in MM2 were cool. That rotting goat guy Anthraxus? Wicked. Also, the mythology built up over the years about Demogorgon is scattered, vague and evocative... he was one of the Big Bads, invented retrievers, lived in an underwater palace, was worshipped by one of the wierdest/stupidest races (Ixitzichitl-sp?) he just seemed weird and interesting. NOT like a certain crappy Satan rip-off. Gotta say, anyone who's not a bit bored and overloaded with Satan wannabe crap in entertainment/gaming in general isn't paying much attention. Crap, now I want to rent Legend...
RealSorceror 05-29-07, 02:44 PM	Demogorgan is pure brute force. He would just grapple and crush that pesky devil. However, if they weren't both stuck in a hypothetical inescapable pit, Asmodeous would win.
Aseran 05-29-07, 03:29 PM	Did anyone specify precisely WHERE they're fighting? Because if not, I humbly propose their match be held at the base of the Spire. :D
pratputajao 05-29-07, 03:50 PM	Rereading the book in parts. Baalzebul is probably the best bet to take Demogorgon, followed by Dispater. The other lords are simply not scary enough to win unless some serious luck is on their side. I have to say I agree here... the demon princes are simply way too bloody weak as written in the FC's. Not like I'm likely to ever use them, but if I did I'd use BoVD stats. Seriously though, why the disparity between demons and devils? Devils are far less interesting for me personally. I mean, they're all pretty much scary dudes with horns and flamy darkness crap. FC2 helped a bit with that, but the Lords are still bor-rrring. Give me Demogorgon, Yeenoghu or Juiblex. First time I read the original MM1 when I was a kid, I remember my reaction to the demon princes being, "Eww, gross... COOL." Then I flipped distractedly through the devils. Meh. Heck, the Yugoloth lords in MM2 were cool. That rotting goat guy Anthraxus? Wicked. Also, the mythology built up over the years about Demogorgon is scattered, vague and evocative... he was one of the Big Bads, invented retrievers, lived in an underwater palace, was worshipped by one of the wierdest/stupidest races (Ixitzichitl-sp?) he just seemed weird and interesting. NOT like a certain crappy Satan rip-off. Gotta say, anyone who's not a bit bored and overloaded with Satan wannabe crap in entertainment/gaming in general isn't paying much attention. Crap, now I want to rent Legend... I though I was the only one who prefered Demons just becouse they wearnt so Human-like. Demogorgon was a freak in 1st ed MM (and still is)- two baboon heads, forked tail, tenticles (Tenticles for gods sake!!) and bird legs!! Then you look at Asmo..yawn... been there done that. For me they were just more interesting in appearance. I know its just a game but its all in good fun :D
Aseran 05-29-07, 04:12 PM	You know, the only thing about Demogorgon that bugs me, actually, is those damn baboon heads. Come on, BABOONS? That sounds silly. I mean, it'd be cool if like, they only shared some superficial features with a baboon (circular ridges around eyes, enlarged teeth) but were otherwise alien and demonic and utterly horrific-looking, but they never seem to do it like that in official art. That said, I like Demons and Devils in equal measure. They just serve different roles.
pyro_cat 05-29-07, 04:49 PM	As for personal prefference, I feel obliged to chip in my two cents here. I've always found the lower planes fascinating, especially the Nine Hells. The Abyss might be cooler, but the Nine Hells is more interesting in the long term, and I think this is because of the devils themselves. Another poster touched on it a little. Asmodeus and his camp are immensely powerful; possibly more powerful than any other finite force in the universe. But by the D&D cosmology, the forces of chaos and evil are... well, infinite. The Abyss goes on forever, and every one of those lairs has a demon lord presiding over it. By D&D flavour and mechanics; the devils are going to lose. Not only are the under assault from above, constantly hounded by the forces of good that they left behind so long ago, but they're forced into a pitched battle for their very survival against the incursions of the Ta'narii. Avernus is a blasted, scorched layer, and it's often all the devils can do to keep the demons from getting further. The lords of the nine are smart enough to realise this now, and I feel like this, along with their patient and planning nature, make for fascinating personalities. Resigned to ultimate failure, yet still strong and proud, standing at the head of a decaying empire of order carved out of one of the most hostile planes in the multiverse. It's a fascinating archetype, in my opinion. Of course, an interesting question also arises from this way of looking at things. Sure Asmodeus must have realised what would happen, and where he would end up after seemginly abandoning the cause of good. Was there maybe something more to his decision than meets the eye? Maybe what everyone else sees as a fallen and misguided champion is actually an ultimate martyr to his cause; willing to lose everything, even his immortal soul, for the destruction of the demons that seek to overwhelm the universe. To me, Asmodeus is exactly like the Satan from judeo-christian mythology and esotericsm. Proud, passionate and convinced, yet melancholy and fatalistic... and, above all else, a creation of Good.
aushlo 05-29-07, 05:42 PM	Cosmologically, devils are fairly interesting. The doomed martyr is something that had occurred to me too. I guess my problem is I'm somewhat sick of the Adversary/Doomed Champion archetype unless a truly fresh spin is put to it. It's just that off the top of my head I can come up with about a dozen books/comics/movies which play with just that concept, even limiting my examples to actually portraying Satan, and frankly it's been done better outside of D&D, but far too often to be relevant. Satan. The Mafia. Alien monster in a research station thingy. Done to death. Dead horse beaten, shot, napalmed. I like Demons because they hearken back to the baroque, mythical and freaky element I remember from old school D&D. More Conan or Chtulhu than LotR. As much better as the art is these days in D&D overall (with a few notable exceptions) I miss the feelings and mood brought up by those old drawings in the first Fiend Folio or the old modules. Demogorgon or Juiblex recall that feeling of the dungeon being otherworldly and terrifying. Bring up the Lords of Hell, I think Al Pacino or Lucifer from Sandman. I want blood and slime dripping demon idols, not Infernal paperwork.
aushlo 05-29-07, 05:48 PM	It is interesting to think though that by clinging to Law, after rejecting Good, the Baatezu have effectively set themselves up as agents of heaven. Their power, pride and rigidity is the buffer that keeps the hordes of the Abyss from taking apart the rest of creation. It's funny, if they put their differences aside with the Tanar'ri, they could storm the planes in a heartbeat and smash the heavens. But then everything would end. Which of course terrifies them. But they are doomed to an eternal stalemate otherwise. I think when it comes down to it, the Lords are incredibly powerful, prideful cowards.
The Serge7 05-29-07, 05:57 PM	Devils all the way (although demons are up there with daemons as my favorite monsters). The desire to control, define, proscribe, prescribe, and to possess are all terribly effective themes for devils. However, above all, I like the fact that devils, unlike the other fiends, are all about giving meaning and order to something that is empty and foul: Evil. Demons don't care about meaning as much as they care about destruction, satisfying appetites, and causing woe; daemons don't care about meaning or definintions as much as they care about just being Evil and wallowing in it. Devils, though... Devils are all about meaning and this is what makes them so terrifying, their desire to justify the unjustifiable. Asmodeus is notSatan... At least that's not the perspective taken by Dicefreaks. Rather, Asmodeus is Tyranny personified. He is proud and he is driven... However, he knows he's Evil and has no doubts about what he plans on doing to the multiverse: to shackle it under his misery inducing heel. He's not melancholic and he's not a creation of Good (this is our take as well as that of WotC... He was not created by Good beings in their lore; he was created by Lawful beings). He is a fundamental aspect of Creation and a terrifyingly alluring one at that. That's one of many reasons why devils rock.
omegalith 05-29-07, 06:08 PM	But surely good is no more justifiable than evil? Nothing in life has any objective meaning, so what's so especially empty about evil?
The Serge7 05-29-07, 06:11 PM	Why isn't Good more justifiable than Evil? And I'm not talking about the "real world."
Bob the Efreet 05-30-07, 02:25 AM	You know, the only thing about Demogorgon that bugs me, actually, is those damn baboon heads. Mandrills. They're mandrill heads.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:03 AM	It is interesting to think though that by clinging to Law, after rejecting Good, the Baatezu have effectively set themselves up as agents of heaven. Their power, pride and rigidity is the buffer that keeps the hordes of the Abyss from taking apart the rest of creation. It's funny, if they put their differences aside with the Tanar'ri, they could storm the planes in a heartbeat and smash the heavens. But then everything would end. Which of course terrifies them. But they are doomed to an eternal stalemate otherwise. I think when it comes down to it, the Lords are incredibly powerful, prideful cowards. But the Baatezu don't *want* to smash the heavens. They want to take over the heavens and rule them with an iron fist. If the Abyss spread all over creation, then all of creation would be hateful to them. I don't see how that makes them cowardly. Their differences with the Tanar'ri are as great as their differences with the Archons, if in a different direction. Just because *you* think that they should care more about the cause of Evil than the cause of Law doesn't mean they think so, and it's not even clear why they should. The story we have is that the Baatezu became Baatezu because they wanted to conquer everything and they stopped caring about the consequences of what they did to do it -- they were beings of Law infected by Evil, not beings of Evil infected by Law. For them to give up on Law to fully embrace Evil would be letting their oldest, most hated enemies -- the Tanar'ri -- win. They were their enemies *first*, before they were enemies of the Powers of Law, certainly before they were enemies of the Archons and Eladrin and Guardinals, who may not even have existed back then.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:04 AM	But surely good is no more justifiable than evil? Nothing in life has any objective meaning, so what's so especially empty about evil? Spoken like a true Bleaker.
pratputajao 05-30-07, 05:19 AM	Devils all the way (although demons are up there with daemons as my favorite monsters). The desire to control, define, proscribe, prescribe, and to possess are all terribly effective themes for devils. However, above all, I like the fact that devils, unlike the other fiends, are all about giving meaning and order to something that is empty and foul: Evil. Demons don't care about meaning as much as they care about destruction, satisfying appetites, and causing woe; daemons don't care about meaning or definintions as much as they care about just being Evil and wallowing in it. Devils, though... Devils are all about meaning and this is what makes them so terrifying, their desire to justify the unjustifiable. Asmodeus is notSatan... At least that's not the perspective taken by Dicefreaks. Rather, Asmodeus is Tyranny personified. He is proud and he is driven... However, he knows he's Evil and has no doubts about what he plans on doing to the multiverse: to shackle it under his misery inducing heel. He's not melancholic and he's not a creation of Good (this is our take as well as that of WotC... He was not created by Good beings in their lore; he was created by Lawful beings). He is a fundamental aspect of Creation and a terrifyingly alluring one at that. That's one of many reasons why devils rock. For me it comes down to which is more horrifying, from me as a PCs perspective anyway. I find the cold remorsless, alien Evil of the Demonic much more intimidating than that of the Devil which uses its evil for a means to an end. For the Demon often evil is the end. No reasons, no larger picture, no carefully laid plans(not that he is incapable of such) just cold sensless evil. The Demon will kill you just becouse, The Devil ussually has a reason for his violence. Any psychologist will tell you that the most dangerous criminal is the one who doesnt care, the one who has no empathy, the ones who enjoy killing. They will kill you for the fun of it, just to watch you suffer. Think of the fictional charecter of Hannible Lechter, he is demonic wicked and kills for the enjoyment he gets from it. There is nothing you can say or do to save yourself from one such as this- You will die, and horribly. I see the evil of the Diabolic to be more like that within orginized crime. Sure they will temp you to take your soul and all that as well, but you must be willing to deal in the first place. With the Demonic it doesnt matter. You could be a child of 5, as innocent as can be, (in fact that might be more of a thrill for the Demonic) and the demon will relish every single act of violence against that youth. Your mind can come up with some truelly warped things that a Demon would do for the fun of it. While yes this may be more simple, it is also more horrifying to me. It is that cold, Alien, lack of any empathy that scares me the most. Especially when coupled with a genious+ IQ that many Demons possess. They are the stuff of absolute nightmare Also Demons are the face of Entropy- Pure distruction and disorder. They are a part of that primal force that breaks down mountains and empires- There is no getting around it- that which has order is bound for chaos. The chaotic part of them makes them engines of irrational, destructive, disorder. ( I know this is more true for Chaotic nuetrals but Chaotic Evil plays its part). So all in all I just find them scarrier..hehe ( I could have just written that in the first place!)
The Serge7 05-30-07, 08:42 AM	For the Demon often evil is the end. No reasons, no larger picture, no carefully laid plans(not that he is incapable of such) just cold sensless evil. I disagree and I think the nature of what Chaotic Evil, as described in D&D, would also disagree. Chaotic Evil is passionate and dedicated to eliminating constraints on everyone and everything. It's not cold and neither is it in pursuit of Evil as the end (the former would be associated with devils and the latter would be associated with daemons). The Demon will kill you just becouse, The Devil ussually has a reason for his violence. Any psychologist will tell you that the most dangerous criminal is the one who doesnt care, the one who has no empathy, the ones who enjoy killing. Such a criminal is dangerous to individuals, but rarely to the world at large. I think it's safe to say that the most dangerous men and women in history controlled powerful tyrannies and advocated for strong, overwhelming governments and, while we can debate as to their actual alignment in D&D terms, most would agree that they were Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Evil. Also, I don't think the lack of empathy is something inherent to Chaotic Evil (in fact, I would go as far as to say that Neutral Evil lacks empathy and that Lawful Evil is not especially sympathetic, while Chaotic Evil can be either but doesn't care to be). They will kill you for the fun of it, just to watch you suffer. I would say that CE kills for the fun of it and that NE wants to watch you suffer. But that's just me. Think of the fictional charecter of Hannible Lechter, he is demonic wicked and kills for the enjoyment he gets from it. There is nothing you can say or do to save yourself from one such as this- You will die, and horribly. Lecter is a reflection of Neutral Evil at its best, not Chaotic Evil. He's clinical in his approach to vice and is completely self-serving in his desire to do harm... However, according to the first three books in which he was featured, his murders were not passionate; rather, they were almost scientific and always calculated. Heck, I'd say he would be slightly closer to Lawful than to Chaotic on the ethical spectrum of Neutrality. I see the evil of the Diabolic to be more like that within orginized crime. Sure they will temp you to take your soul and all that as well, but you must be willing to deal in the first place. Not so. The terror of Lawful Evil is that you don't have to be willing to deal eventually. Before you know it, the power of the Law has swept you up and you are held to account to obey the laws that oppress you and others or else suffer severe punishment (or watch others punished in your stead). And, what's more, you may have been dealing all the while without knowing because of the cold logic used to justify voting or reacting a certain way may have prompted you to do so. That's why Lawful Evil is so hideous: it's reasonable, it's logical, it seems to make sense despite the fact that it's cold, cruel, and dedicated to wiping individuality and independence, liberty and freedom (of all sorts, body, mind, and soul) out of creation. With the Demonic it doesnt matter. You could be a child of 5, as innocent as can be, (in fact that might be more of a thrill for the Demonic) and the demon will relish every single act of violence against that youth. Your mind can come up with some truelly warped things that a Demon would do for the fun of it. No less so the devil. A devil can logically determine that the horrible torture of a child to most civilized people is, rather, an effective means to conduct research for the betterment of society's leaders. All children of a certain class or race or gender or height or hair color or whatever may be selected by lottery (which may or may not be rigged) for this research. You can certainly come up with some warped things a devil can do. While yes this may be more simple, it is also more horrifying to me. It is that cold, Alien, lack of any empathy that scares me the most. Especially when coupled with a genious+ IQ that many Demons possess. They are the stuff of absolute nightmare I don't find your evaluation of demonic evil less horrifying than a devil, but I do think that you're conflating CE with NE. I also think that a devil's Evil is just as alien as that of a demon; however, it's less passionate and less influenced by the desire of the perpetrator (the demon) to be free to do what it wants without the need to rationalize its desires... I think this is where, especially in societies that are built on personal freedom within an overarching lawful environment, find it so terrifying. However, I think that it's far more about personal desires and freedom to commit evil acts than it is about getting others to commit evil acts in the name of something else.
pratputajao 05-30-07, 09:30 AM	I disagree and I think the nature of what Chaotic Evil, as described in D&D, would also disagree. Chaotic Evil is passionate and dedicated to eliminating constraints on everyone and everything. It's not cold and neither is it in pursuit of Evil as the end (the former would be associated with devils and the latter would be associated with daemons). Such a criminal is dangerous to individuals, but rarely to the world at large. I think it's safe to say that the most dangerous men and women in history controlled powerful tyrannies and advocated for strong, overwhelming governments and, while we can debate as to their actual alignment in D&D terms, most would agree that they were Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Evil. Also, I don't think the lack of empathy is something inherent to Chaotic Evil (in fact, I would go as far as to say that Neutral Evil lacks empathy and that Lawful Evil is not especially sympathetic, while Chaotic Evil can be either but doesn't care to be). I would say that CE kills for the fun of it and that NE wants to watch you suffer. But that's just me. Lecter is a reflection of Neutral Evil at its best, not Chaotic Evil. He's clinical in his approach to vice and is completely self-serving in his desire to do harm... However, according to the first three books in which he was featured, his murders were not passionate; rather, they were almost scientific and always calculated. Heck, I'd say he would be slightly closer to Lawful than to Chaotic on the ethical spectrum of Neutrality. Not so. The terror of Lawful Evil is that you don't have to be willing to deal eventually. Before you know it, the power of the Law has swept you up and you are held to account to obey the laws that oppress you and others or else suffer severe punishment (or watch others punished in your stead). And, what's more, you may have been dealing all the while without knowing because of the cold logic used to justify voting or reacting a certain way may have prompted you to do so. That's why Lawful Evil is so hideous: it's reasonable, it's logical, it seems to make sense despite the fact that it's cold, cruel, and dedicated to wiping individuality and independence, liberty and freedom (of all sorts, body, mind, and soul) out of creation. No less so the devil. A devil can logically determine that the horrible torture of a child to most civilized people is, rather, an effective means to conduct research for the betterment of society's leaders. All children of a certain class or race or gender or height or hair color or whatever may be selected by lottery (which may or may not be rigged) for this research. You can certainly come up with some warped things a devil can do. I don't find your evaluation of demonic evil less horrifying than a devil, but I do think that you're conflating CE with NE. I also think that a devil's Evil is just as alien as that of a demon; however, it's less passionate and less influenced by the desire of the perpetrator (the demon) to be free to do what it wants without the need to rationalize its desires... I think this is where, especially in societies that are built on personal freedom within an overarching lawful environment, find it so terrifying. However, I think that it's far more about personal desires and freedom to commit evil acts than it is about getting others to commit evil acts in the name of something else. I will admit, and should have written this, that I go more on how our group have played the differant evils than what the new books (3ed) have written them up. To me they are too... um... tied to the alighnment? I mean to me Chaotic evil has nothing to do with always looking to remain constrainst and so forth. It has more to do with being an Individualist who ignors all laws and will not be personally constrained by them, no matter who gives them. Only if it serves him. A person or being that is compleatly self absorbed and does what he does on his own whims. While at the whole time being "evil" I know this look a lot like Nuetral evil as well and that is fine with me. I wasnt a big fan of the whole planescape thing where peoples Alighnment totally deffined them. the Alighnment system is not them best so D&D created a whole system of how biengs relate with alighnment. Now Demons are looking to spread chaotic evil (which would kinda be Lawful in a way?) I mean if all CE is dedicated to do any one thing wouldnt that make it lawful= All CE beings will do this. If they are truelly Chaotic, how could they all be dedicated to anything? Sheesh, This could actually become quite philisophical. We just never got that into it- Demons are destroyers and were cold harted killers and wicked hedonists ( But not always as thay are chaotic and could show amazing range of behaviors and motivations) Devils The planners, the regimented, the hiaarchical (I know that is spelled wrong) and just as evil but have a code they obey.. And the Deamons who were just cruel evil, looking to spread evil and check goodness at all times...probably the most alien of all. this is deffinately the closest that I have looked at this and You (serge) are probably more correct within the game
The Serge7 05-30-07, 10:09 AM	I will admit, and should have written this, that I go more on how our group have played the differant evils than what the new books (3ed) have written them up. To me they are too... um... tied to the alighnment? I'm not I understand this observation... One of the cornerstones of D&D in general and of many outsiders -- particularly exemplars -- in particular is how they promote, intentionally or not, one of the nine alignments. While it's fine to acknowledge that a group may approach different alignments in a manner distinct from another group, and while we all know that there are going to be different interpretations as to what represents a specific alignment, the nature of daemons, demons, and devils is that they represent and are intimately and intrinsically tied to a given alignment (NE, CE, or LE in these cases). I mean to me Chaotic evil has nothing to do with always looking to remain constrainst and so forth. It has more to do with being an Individualist who ignors all laws and will not be personally constrained by them, no matter who gives them. Only if it serves him. This is possibly NE with Chaotic tendancies... CNE at best. It's not CE. A person or being that is compleatly self absorbed and does what he does on his own whims. While at the whole time being "evil" I know this look a lot like Nuetral evil as well and that is fine with me. Only the inclusion of the word "whims" incorporates any hint of Chaos IMO in your analysis. I wasnt a big fan of the whole planescape thing where peoples Alighnment totally deffined them. Well, I don't think PS or any other "official" D&D line implied, much less outright stated, that alignment defined "people." Rather, alignment defined outsiders (fiends, celestials, slaadi, modrons, and rilmani) because outsider-exemplars are their alignment. It was gives them existence and sustenance. Although this wasn't explicitly stated in 1ed, it was still clearly important since the "vernacular" used to describe certain alignments was based on the name of the appropriate outsider (e.g. demonic for CE). the Alighnment system is not them best so D&D created a whole system of how biengs relate with alighnment. Now Demons are looking to spread chaotic evil (which would kinda be Lawful in a way?) I mean if all CE is dedicated to do any one thing wouldnt that make it lawful= All CE beings will do this. If they are truelly Chaotic, how could they all be dedicated to anything? Being dedicated to something does not imply Law. Many notorious criminals are dedicated to something, even criminals we would associate as being CE. A gang running amok in the streets and robbing, pillaging, and burning as they go from place to place is probably CE. They are dedicated to sating their own desires, flouting the law, and bring misery to others. They may not dwell on this much, but they are still promoting this. Having belief is not the same thing as being Lawful. Also, what do you mean by "doing one thing?" There are many ways to promote any alignment and many alignments result in very similar ends even if the means are different (just as many pursue different ends with similar means). CE can be achieved in a wide variety of ways and this is accounted in the fact that there are many different kinds of demons. Sheesh, This could actually become quite philisophical. We just never got that into it- Demons are destroyers and were cold harted killers and wicked hedonists ( But not always as thay are chaotic and could show amazing range of behaviors and motivations) While you are free to approach your game any way you see fit, I perceive your definition of demons to be far closer to daemons. Being destroyers, fine... Hedonists, absolutely! Cold-hearted? Hardly. Passion, emotion, and the like are intimate partners to Chaos. This does not mean that daemons can't be passionate, but their passion is in committing Evil, not necessarily in the passionate of the act itself. Devils can be passionate, but that is realized when they force others to do their bidding through constraint and definition and logic (which also implies a degree of "cold-heartedness").
sciborg2 05-30-07, 11:48 AM	All I know is you guys are scaring me with all the examples. :eek:
pratputajao 05-30-07, 12:13 PM	I'm not I understand this observation... One of the cornerstones of D&D in general and of many outsiders -- particularly exemplars -- in particular is how they promote, intentionally or not, one of the nine alignments. While it's fine to acknowledge that a group may approach different alignments in a manner distinct from another group, and while we all know that there are going to be different interpretations as to what represents a specific alignment, the nature of daemons, demons, and devils is that they represent and are intimately and intrinsically tied to a given alignment (NE, CE, or LE in these cases). This is possibly NE with Chaotic tendancies... CNE at best. It's not CE. Only the inclusion of the word "whims" incorporates any hint of Chaos IMO in your analysis. Well, I don't think PS or any other "official" D&D line implied, much less outright stated, that alignment defined "people." Rather, alignment defined outsiders (fiends, celestials, slaadi, modrons, and rilmani) because outsider-exemplars are their alignment. It was gives them existence and sustenance. Although this wasn't explicitly stated in 1ed, it was still clearly important since the "vernacular" used to describe certain alignments was based on the name of the appropriate outsider (e.g. demonic for CE). Being dedicated to something does not imply Law. Many notorious criminals are dedicated to something, even criminals we would associate as being CE. A gang running amok in the streets and robbing, pillaging, and burning as they go from place to place is probably CE. They are dedicated to sating their own desires, flouting the law, and bring misery to others. They may not dwell on this much, but they are still promoting this. Having belief is not the same thing as being Lawful. Also, what do you mean by "doing one thing?" There are many ways to promote any alignment and many alignments result in very similar ends even if the means are different (just as many pursue different ends with similar means). CE can be achieved in a wide variety of ways and this is accounted in the fact that there are many different kinds of demons. While you are free to approach your game any way you see fit, I perceive your definition of demons to be far closer to daemons. Being destroyers, fine... Hedonists, absolutely! Cold-hearted? Hardly. Passion, emotion, and the like are intimate partners to Chaos. This does not mean that daemons can't be passionate, but their passion is in committing Evil, not necessarily in the passionate of the act itself. Devils can be passionate, but that is realized when they force others to do their bidding through constraint and definition and logic (which also implies a degree of "cold-heartedness"). Well Like I said I havent given it as much thought as others. It seems the word for CE is Passion, yes? But you really dont see them as Cold hearted? It seems they hold nothing in esteme but themselves? Yes, sure, they can know love but when I say cold hearted I simply mean they have no connection to those they see as below them (that ussually means everyone) They can kill on a whim but the evil part of them I would think would remove any chance of giveing, or humanity, compassion and such. I mispoke when I said they (demon, devels, deamons) were too tied to Alignment. What I mean is that yes they are perfect representitives of the Alignment they are. And they act in that way. But I dont see them as trying to spread that alignment. And when speaking of Planescape and alignment I mean all the Faction stuff in sigal- sensates and such- being totally alignment driven. what do you mean by "doing one thing?" I mean having dedication to doing one thing- Spread CE or whatever. How can a group of thouroughly chaotic Individiual all be dedicated to the same thing? Though Actually the demonic in the game are driven by more than one thing...I mean the whole blood war deal. It seems no matter how Chaotic they supposably are they are bound to join this. So there is a restraint to their chaos in this instant and in the one you mentioned (removing constraints from others)? So lets say there are 2 things all demons have to do- Blood war and spreading the alighnment (though the idea of beings spreading an evil alighnment is odd to me but oh well). Their chaos would have a limit in that case. If you are chaotic you are just that- TOTALLY unpredictable. But not in the case of the Demons I guess? A gang running amok in the streets and robbing, pillaging, and burning as they go from place to place is probably CE. They are dedicated to sating their own desires, flouting the law, and bring misery to others. A gang of people cant really be compared to one person. The truelly chaotic would join the gang or not...depends on how the idea hit him at the time. I would think anyway? Anyway you say my use of Lecter is more of a NE charecter. Thats fine. Could you give me an a few absolute CE individuals through history or popular culture? I could think of many but all of them could probably be called NE as well? Is it only this passion and emotion that makes them CE? After this little debate CE actually looks in some ways more interesting than originally thought but in others more controlled. sorry for the long time for the Reply. Had to take my wife to school
The Serge7 05-30-07, 12:48 PM	All I know is you guys are scaring me with all the examples. :eek: :evillaugh At least we're doing something right!
pratputajao 05-30-07, 12:57 PM	huh, it seems my last post lost something in transition? A gang running amok in the streets and robbing, pillaging, and burning as they go from place to place is probably CE. They are dedicated to sating their own desires, flouting the law, and bring misery to others. A group of people is not the same as one individual. In the case of the group a chaotic bieng in my view would take it or leave it... or perhaps destroy it. However his unpedictible thought process took him. It may be fun to join the group, maybe more fun to help those being attacked only to kill them in a more hidious fashion latter, or join the group and do the same, or just go on and ignore it...etc.... this got cut somehow....
The Serge7 05-30-07, 01:11 PM	Well Like I said I havent given it as much thought as others. It seems the word for CE is Passion, yes? But you really dont see them as Cold hearted? I use "passion" in general to describe Chaotic in a broad sense. It is, of course, not the only term one could use for Chaos... Unbridled, unrestrained, spontaneous, changeable... These are probably better words to use, but "passion," in this situation, seems appropriate to me. It seems they hold nothing in esteme but themselves? Yes, sure, they can know love but when I say cold hearted I simply mean they have no connection to those they see as below them (that ussually means everyone) They can kill on a whim but the evil part of them I would think would remove any chance of giveing, or humanity, compassion and such. Your contextualization of "cold-hearted" in this case is applicable to any of three dominant Evil alignments. A devil would perceive any subordinate in a cold-hearted fashion (as well as any non-devil) when issuing orders or pursuing a goal; a daemon would cold-heartedly commit any act to achieve its self-serving, Evil needs; a demon would react in a cold-hearted, merciless fashion to the screams of those it's not actively attacking. In all cases, the Evil of these spirits would "remove any chance of giving, or humanity, compassion and such." I mispoke when I said they (demon, devels, deamons) were too tied to Alignment. What I mean is that yes they are perfect representitives of the Alignment they are. And they act in that way. But I dont see them as trying to spread that alignment. And when speaking of Planescape and alignment I mean all the Faction stuff in sigal- sensates and such- being totally alignment driven. These creatures promote their brand of Evil through their actions and interactions with mortals as well as in their Blood War. A devil makes pacts with mortals that seek to constrain, bind, and rob others of their individuality and self-determination; a demon will agree to work with mortals to fulfill unlawful, often violently passionate acts of evil; a daemon will make arrangements with mortals to commit acts of Evil that do not promote constraint or passion intentionally and, at best, as a by-product. As for the various factions in PS, they struck me as only superficially driven by alignment. Yes, you can see LE in the Mercykillers and CN in the Xaosmen, but there were definitely LN Mercykillers and CG and CN Xaosmen. And they weren't promoting an alignment, per se; rather, they were promoting a cosmic philosophy that just happened to parallel some alignments (the "Deaders," for example, weren't really interested in the alignments). I mean having dedication to doing one thing- Spread CE or whatever. How can a group of thouroughly chaotic Individiual all be dedicated to the same thing? They aren't driven by one thing since there are various ways to promote any one alignment. Or, you could look at it from the perspective that CE means the spreading of Chaos and Evil in intimately intertwined parts. This does not constrain nor limit a demon since it's just doing what it wants to do (if it wasn't, it would become a daemon or, worse, a devil). Though Actually the demonic in the game are driven by more than one thing...I mean the whole blood war deal. It seems no matter how Chaotic they supposably are they are bound to join this. Actually, it's probable that most of the demons in The Abyss are not involved in the Blood War and that only a fraction are actively involved. So there is a restraint to their chaos in this instant and in the one you mentioned (removing constraints from others)? So lets say there are 2 things all demons have to do- Blood war and spreading the alighnment (though the idea of beings spreading an evil alighnment is odd to me but oh well). By fighting in the Blood War, demons are spreading Chaotic Evil because their battles stifle the ability for devils to dominate the lower planes under the banner of Lawful Evil. The demonic involvement in the Blood War automatically supports and promotes Chaotic Evil. Their chaos would have a limit in that case. If you are chaotic you are just that- TOTALLY unpredictable. But not in the case of the Demons I guess? A demon is not "TOTALLY unpredictable." That would be, at best, a slaadi (or a rilmani -- see below). The closest a demon would come to living up to this term would be to say that a demon is guaranteed to commit an act that is horribly Chaotic Evil. Heck, in some ways a daemon would be totally unpredictable in how it will spread Evil; will it use order and logic or will it depend upon chance and passion? A demon is always guaranteed to use Chaos to promote its Evil and, in this, they are knowalbe but only in the same way that one can know billowing, choking smoke... It's unclear how the smoke will flow, where the fire is (if there's any), how long it will be around, or how long it will take to kill, but kill you it will. This knowledge does not make a demon any less Chaotic Evil or comprehensible, but it's nevertheless a guarantee. Anyway you say my use of Lecter is more of a NE charecter. Thats fine. Could you give me an a few absolute CE individuals through history or popular culture? I could think of many but all of them could probably be called NE as well? Is it only this passion and emotion that makes them CE? The Joker is Chaotic Evil. He loves murder people, turning society and its mores and norms on its head, and goes out of his way to commit acts of terror because they cause havoc and mayhem. Some spree-killers (as opposed to some serial killers who superficially qualify as NE IMO), who walk out, shoot up a bunch a people, and then either kill themselves or disappear would probably qualify as CE. They cause not only woe, but discord and confusion in their acts. A classic pyromaniac would be another example, particularly those that want to kill or harm others and cause discord in their actions. After this little debate CE actually looks in some ways more interesting than originally thought but in others more controlled. It's no more controlled. In fact, I think the approach I advocate reveals more options than what you were going after. I also think it's far more terrifying and unsettling. sorry for the long time for the Reply. Had to take my wife to school That's life, which is far more important than this stuff. :)
The Serge7 05-30-07, 01:14 PM	A group of people is not the same as one individual. In the case of the group a chaotic bieng in my view would take it or leave it... or perhaps destroy it. However his unpedictible thought process took him. It may be fun to join the group, maybe more fun to help those being attacked only to kill them in a more hidious fashion latter, or join the group and do the same, or just go on and ignore it...etc.... Well, do not assume that participating in a group dictates the degree to which one may or may not be Chaotic, Lawful, or Neutral. Demons can work together quite well in the same vein that some devils (xerfilstyx) do not. What matters is the intent of the group or the individual and, to a lesser degree, the means to achieve that intent.
pratputajao 05-30-07, 01:29 PM	I use "passion" in general to describe Chaotic in a broad sense. It is, of course, not the only term one could use for Chaos... Unbridled, unrestrained, spontaneous, changeable... These are probably better words to use, but "passion," in this situation, seems appropriate to me. Your contextualization of "cold-hearted" in this case is applicable to any of three dominant Evil alignments. A devil would perceive any subordinate in a cold-hearted fashion (as well as any non-devil) when issuing orders or pursuing a goal; a daemon would cold-heartedly commit any act to achieve its self-serving, Evil needs; a demon would react in a cold-hearted, merciless fashion to the screams of those it's not actively attacking. In all cases, the Evil of these spirits would "remove any chance of giving, or humanity, compassion and such." These creatures promote their brand of Evil through their actions and interactions with mortals as well as in their Blood War. A devil makes pacts with mortals that seek to constrain, bind, and rob others of their individuality and self-determination; a demon will agree to work with mortals to fulfill unlawful, often violently passionate acts of evil; a daemon will make arrangements with mortals to commit acts of Evil that do not promote constraint or passion intentionally and, at best, as a by-product. As for the various factions in PS, they struck me as only superficially driven by alignment. Yes, you can see LE in the Mercykillers and CN in the Xaosmen, but there were definitely LN Mercykillers and CG and CN Xaosmen. And they weren't promoting an alignment, per se; rather, they were promoting a cosmic philosophy that just happened to parallel some alignments (the "Deaders," for example, weren't really interested in the alignments). They aren't driven by one thing since there are various ways to promote any one alignment. Or, you could look at it from the perspective that CE means the spreading of Chaos and Evil in intimately intertwined parts. This does not constrain nor limit a demon since it's just doing what it wants to do (if it wasn't, it would become a daemon or, worse, a devil). Actually, it's probable that most of the demons in The Abyss are not involved in the Blood War and that only a fraction are actively involved. By fighting in the Blood War, demons are spreading Chaotic Evil because their battles stifle the ability for devils to dominate the lower planes under the banner of Lawful Evil. The demonic involvement in the Blood War automatically supports and promotes Chaotic Evil. A demon is not "TOTALLY unpredictable." That would be, at best, a slaadi (or a rilmani -- see below). The closest a demon would come to living up to this term would be to say that a demon is guaranteed to commit an act that is horribly Chaotic Evil. Heck, in some ways a daemon would be totally unpredictable in how it will spread Evil; will it use order and logic or will it depend upon chance and passion? A demon is always guaranteed to use Chaos to promote its Evil and, in this, they are knowalbe but only in the same way that one can know billowing, choking smoke... It's unclear how the smoke will flow, where the fire is (if there's any), how long it will be around, or how long it will take to kill, but kill you it will. This knowledge does not make a demon any less Chaotic Evil or comprehensible, but it's nevertheless a guarantee. The Joker is Chaotic Evil. He loves murder people, turning society and its mores and norms on its head, and goes out of his way to commit acts of terror because they cause havoc and mayhem. Some spree-killers (as opposed to some serial killers who superficially qualify as NE IMO), who walk out, shoot up a bunch a people, and then either kill themselves or disappear would probably qualify as CE. They cause not only woe, but discord and confusion in their acts. A classic pyromaniac would be another example, particularly those that want to kill or harm others and cause discord in their actions. It's no more controlled. In fact, I think the approach I advocate reveals more options than what you were going after. I also think it's far more terrifying and unsettling. That's life, which is far more important than this stuff. :) Very good, well thought out answers. While I dont entirely agree with the deffinitions in game as you outlined they makes sence. Given that what you say is the games take I can see why you prefere the Lawful evil variaty. Perhaps, in game, the NE are the ones who truelly would be the ultimate horror as they are motivated by evil alone? I may indeed stand corrected. Interesting discusion none the less. But Asmodieus...Demogorgon are they still fighting?:D Also I must ask how goes the work on Horrors of the Abyss? I am really looking forward to the finished work. thanks
The Serge7 05-30-07, 01:54 PM	Very good, well thought out answers. While I dont entirely agree with the deffinitions in game as you outlined they makes sence. Given that what you say is the games take I can see why you prefere the Lawful evil variaty. Perhaps, in game, the NE are the ones who truelly would be the ultimate horror as they are motivated by evil alone? I may indeed stand corrected. Well, I think all three Evils as performed and represented by the fiends are ultimately horrible and alien. I just happen to perceive LE as the most deadly because I happen to understand how the desire to define and achieve logical ends can be terribly warped in the name of society. Interesting discusion none the less. But Asmodieus...Demogorgon are they still fighting?:D Yes. If one cuts out the ability to summon other Lords (something I believe Asmodeus can do and that the others would be doing the fighting while he continues to summon additional aid or cast defensive and offensive spells from the rear), Demogorgon's dual actions wins the field in the majority of cases. Also I must ask how goes the work on Horrors of the Abyss? I am really looking forward to the finished work. Slow, but steady, thanks for asking. We have pretty much figured out which demon princes will be featured and now we're finalizing our approach (HD, weapons, relations, history). We're kind of stalled due to changes in staffing and the irregularity of the site being up.
Witch 05-30-07, 02:03 PM	Well, I think all three Evils as performed and represented by the fiends are ultimately horrible and alien. I just happen to perceive LE as the most deadly because I happen to understand how the desire to define and achieve logical ends can be terribly warped in the name of society. I think it's easy to perceive LE as most deadly because it seems to be the one that has caused most terror on our world so far - especially in the 20th century. It's difficult to think of CE societies, really. Our world sees CE mostly when the discipline of a LE society falls away, I think. Take, for example, the massacre of Nanking. That could stand as an example of Chaotic Evil.
Issabella 05-30-07, 03:56 PM	I know this will sound a bit off topic'ish and hope I can express the idea coherently. Socially in real world terms I see a cyclic nature of Law/Chaos. With the chaos, particularly evil and neutral varieties consuming, destroying, and wasting away until few are left or enough gather and tire of the destruction, and thus law is introduced. How long the law lasts before devolving into chaos, of course varies from example to example. Can a society stay lawful and promote the good until evil eats away, is the process inevitable are other questions. But eventually, perhaps generations, but those held too lawfully eventually collapse. I am probably incorrect in quoting the laws of thermodynamics but the fixed system with entropy increasing. Serge views Lawful Evil as the most dangerous, I tend to view neutral evil as the most ultimately vile and dangerous, capable of eating away at the most chaotic and Lawful beings, taking pleasure in the infliction of misery simply for the joy in suffering others. Each GM tends to run it their own way. As for the debate on hand, the Double headed D's verse the Big A. Depends entirely on the situation in which the two match up for a fight. Neither being is willing to risk its existence or showing its true might (I picture most cosmic powers as very cautious about letting too much, correct, information about its power limits out) in a random conflict. Since near any attempt on big A, would probably require going through ALL of hell just to get too him, if by some reason D is fighting it out, odds are the other lords of the nine have already some how been dealt with. I know an almost impossible scenario. The other involves the might of hell driving into the abyss, stirring up probably the last thing the Dark council or any devil wants, a riled up abyss with a common enemies. In either case a meeting between the two being would be a catastrophe of the highest epic games. Uncountable trillions of devils and demons, billions of Daemon mercenaries. Arch-dukes, lords of the Nine, Abyssal Atrocities, Princes, and Demi-urges (sorry if miss using ranks). Keeping track of so many betrayals, counter plans, treacheries, and plot twists would make the wheel of time look like a pamphlet. As I would view it. Very few beings could stand up to Demogorgon one on one. Perhaps nothing if I where running it. Standing alone as the ultimately representative of passionate evil and destruction, as the true prince of Demons I feel overcoming physically would be almost impossible. Now several cosmic/divine powers vs him then of course. Mechanically for the battle, well I will eagerly await the finished Demogorgon from Horrors to see how it matches against the Gates Asmodeus. As I understand the current Demorgon is now an older "unofficial" version.
aushlo 05-30-07, 08:15 PM	But the Baatezu don't *want* to smash the heavens. They want to take over the heavens and rule them with an iron fist. If the Abyss spread all over creation, then all of creation would be hateful to them. I don't see how that makes them cowardly. Their differences with the Tanar'ri are as great as their differences with the Archons, if in a different direction. Just because *you* think that they should care more about the cause of Evil than the cause of Law doesn't mean they think so, and it's not even clear why they should. The story we have is that the Baatezu became Baatezu because they wanted to conquer everything and they stopped caring about the consequences of what they did to do it -- they were beings of Law infected by Evil, not beings of Evil infected by Law. For them to give up on Law to fully embrace Evil would be letting their oldest, most hated enemies -- the Tanar'ri -- win. They were their enemies *first*, before they were enemies of the Powers of Law, certainly before they were enemies of the Archons and Eladrin and Guardinals, who may not even have existed back then. I think any being with a 30 intelligence has probably thought a lot about all this. I think any such being knows that he is stuck in a trap of his own making, and if he's not interested in breaking the cycle of which he is a part, he's a coward. He doesn't dare try anything new, because this is all he's got and he'll cling to it because it's all he knows. Also, thinking further along, what does Asmodeus want, for example, when all has been conquered? Peace? By whose definition? Harmony between his subjects? The goal of the Baatezu is to crush as tyrants, it's their very nature. What do they do when there's no one left to resist the yoke of cruel tyranny? Asmodeus knows that even if they win, they lose. He's just not ready to be irrelevant. So he continues to play the game rather than let go of his pride. By contrast, I think the Abyss has it right. The desires of their infinite masses can't possibly be contained forever, and their goal is to end all, including, ultimately, themselves... even if they lose, they win. Or rather, winning and losing are the same thing. Understand here that honestly, all the Lords/Princes are in their own right static cowards and are making their own goals impossible to achieve. That's because they've been infected with Evil, which means they'll rarely if ever care about anything more than, or even on a level approaching, themselves. Demogorgon would love to make everything else end.... but sure doesn't want to risk his own necks.
aushlo 05-30-07, 08:24 PM	Imagine for a moment, if you will, the Modrons given infinite numbers and a slightly stronger pull toward Law than Neutrality. Scary thought, eh? If the Abyss wasn't pulled in its teeming hordes in a million directions at once due to its Chaotic and Evil nature, I imagine this is the closest comparison in scale and force of overall impact on the Multiverse. Anyway, random thought. Asmodeus should give Demogorgon a miss, learn to Chaos-shape like a champ, hit Limbo like a freight train, and create his own darned tyrant utopia. I daresay scary as they can be the Slaadi would be pretty much wiped out. Unless they undid that bit that kept them slightly stable that the Slaad Lords put in place.... Why is it every Outsider Lord/exemplar shoots their race's ultimate victory/source of power right in the foot?
Infinitum 05-30-07, 09:35 PM	Ao would win.
James Jacobs 05-30-07, 09:42 PM	Demogorgon > Asmodeus. No contest.
MC_the_Lord_of_Aberration 05-30-07, 09:51 PM	Round 2: Glasya + Levistus Levistus is in a block of ice for his treason, very useful...
Frobojoe 05-31-07, 02:50 AM	Levistus is in a block of ice for his treason, very useful... Seeing as Asmodeus is the one who put him there in the first place, I would hope he would be able to get him out again.
The Serge7 05-31-07, 08:08 AM	Demogorgon > Asmodeus. No contest. You, Mr. Jacobs, are hardly objective in this Mr. IloveDemogorgonsomuchImdoinganadventurep athfeaturinghimandwrotehimforDRAGON. :) However, I do agree that Demgorgon should have a slight edge over Asmodeus in a contest (which is how it was established back in 1ed with Demogorgon at 200 hp and Asmodeus at 199, among other things).
Kihon 05-31-07, 10:44 AM	First the two are never likely to meet, but putting that aside... Where are they fighting... because if it's on the home plane of either - then that being will win hands down. Again if we could put that aside... Some place neutral - lets say the planes of Hades....Why? Because each had planes for the BloodWar they were leading personally...Suddenly all goes silent. The Greater Power Hades himself walks out (or Hel if you like Norse Myths) and calls a hault. All the armies form into a circle and into the middle of the 100 mile radius circle walks Asmodeus and Demogorgon. Hades announces - this is it - once and forever. The Heavens must fall, and today the Bloodwar Ends. The one that leaves this circle forfeits, and the winner will control both armies. Or some such thing as to make both forced to stay. On neutral ground you have the summoning abilities of Asmodeus to deal with - and trust me - he would use them very wisely. I think it is uncontested that Asmodeus can call in much more powerful help then Demogorgon can. In that case - he wins. If somehow that power was blocked, lets say Hades decides it really is mono - o - mono, then Demogorgon could reasonably stand a chance at victory...that is until... Demogorgon stands over Asmodeus' near dead body, when suddenly the OVERLORD himself decides to take a hand in things... Well if you use that background for Asmodeus then of course he wins - everytime, everywhere. Because no Greater Power is going to let his personal representative take a hit if they can help it, and in this case...he could help it. That's just how I see it playing out. Again the two would never really fight it out - the Lord of Tyranny against the Demon Lord of Chaos... right - they are both personifications of different aspects of evil. Personally I see a better battle between Asmodeus and Graz'zt. Why? Because Graz'zt uses the same battle plan as Asmodeus. Round one - Gate in his Girlfriend - the most epic of all wizards Iggwy, who calls her son - the demi-god Iuz. Graz'zt - the most cunning of the demon lords - calls in all his most powerful Cambions, Abominations, and most importantly new girlfriend/allies Princess Glasya and/or Lady Fierna...hmmm suddenly the lords of hell are split. Now that could be an Epic Battle Royal...haha.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 03:54 PM	I think any being with a 30 intelligence has probably thought a lot about all this. I think any such being knows that he is stuck in a trap of his own making, and if he's not interested in breaking the cycle of which he is a part, he's a coward. He doesn't dare try anything new, because this is all he's got and he'll cling to it because it's all he knows. Also, thinking further along, what does Asmodeus want, for example, when all has been conquered? Peace? By whose definition? Harmony between his subjects? The goal of the Baatezu is to crush as tyrants, it's their very nature. What do they do when there's no one left to resist the yoke of cruel tyranny? He wants an endless cycle of calculated power grabs and betrayals and people playing off each other in endless alliances that ultimately come to nothing. Like a reality show that never ends. Wasn't this proved to everyone's satisfaction with the Reckoning plotline, whose point was to show that Asmodeus' whole deal is about providing a system for people to work their way up through the ranks and stab each other in the back? That he *wanted* his lieutenants to plan to off him, and *rewarded* them for doing so? And that they still ultimately failed? Asmodeus knows that even if they win, they lose. He's just not ready to be irrelevant. So he continues to play the game rather than let go of his pride. Nonsense. A LE victory over the multiverse is no more unthinkable than a CE victory. It'll be the endless bureaucracy and machinations and pointless bickering and jockeying for power and crap of Baator spread everywhere. It'd be horrible and meaningless -- from the perspective of a Good person for whom joy and fulfillment and love are good things -- but that's *any* Evil victory. The dystopia of 1984 is an LE victory. It's the Party existing for the sake of the Party existing. A dystopic dictatorship that exists *to be unsuccessfully rebelled against* only to constantly reassert its power. A boot crushing a human face, forever. &c. By contrast, I think the Abyss has it right. The desires of their infinite masses can't possibly be contained forever, and their goal is to end all, including, ultimately, themselves... even if they lose, they win. Or rather, winning and losing are the same thing. Er, I dunno about that. In a sense, sure. The goal of CE as a gestalt ideal is the end of all in destruction and terror, but no single CE entity wants that. Similarly, the goal of LE as a gestalt ideal is everyone losing their soul to a system that uses them, sucks the individuality and life out of them, crushes then and replaces them with someone else. No single LE entity wants that, but that doesn't mean that their plans won't eventually end in that happening to all of them, and everyone else to boot. Understand here that honestly, all the Lords/Princes are in their own right static cowards and are making their own goals impossible to achieve. That's because they've been infected with Evil, which means they'll rarely if ever care about anything more than, or even on a level approaching, themselves. You're confusing Law with Good. The idea that Law means everything functioning harmoniously and smoothly is confusing Law and Good. LG is the ideal of everything being harmonious and smooth. LE is the ideal of there being endless conflict, but conflict that plays out within the system and ends up with everyone being crushed by it in the end. Demogorgon would love to make everything else end.... but sure doesn't want to risk his own necks. Sure. And Baalzebub wants to crush everything into an orderly structure, but wants to be the one *real* individual, the Tyrant, on top who controls it all at his own free will. He won't succeed, of course. No one of them will. Even Asmodeus himself, in the end, is probably a slave -- willingly pouring everything about himself that means anything into a structure and order that itself means nothing, just so he can be the one to have more control over it than someone else. That's what LE is. That's what it's about. Everyone wanting to be the master, in the end making everyone a slave. Just as CE is about everyone wanting to destroy and in the end being destroyed.
Evil DM Mk3 05-31-07, 04:00 PM	Asmodius would only go withing a mile of fighting if he would win. As they are fighting, ergo he wins.
PunkRockBard 05-31-07, 07:00 PM	Evil always shoots itself in the foot. That is something that should be remembered while debating which evil would win in a contest. Besides...i want to throw NE Yugoloths/Daemons into the mix (i have noticed many calling them Daemons again....did i miss something?) We have Anthraxus....described as the ultimate NE badass in First Ed.....The General of Gehenna...who i have never quite warmed up to (too militaristic for NE)....and....some descriptions of unique lords in a dragon magazine. Damn. Mr. Jacobs...Mr. Mona...someone! Throw NE a crumb or two.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 08:06 PM	Evil always shoots itself in the foot. That is something that should be remembered while debating which evil would win in a contest. Besides...i want to throw NE Yugoloths/Daemons into the mix (i have noticed many calling them Daemons again....did i miss something?) It's a Dicefreaks term, unless they changed it again. (I never liked it, because "daemon" is really the same word as "demon".) We have Anthraxus....described as the ultimate NE badass in First Ed.....The General of Gehenna...who i have never quite warmed up to (too militaristic for NE)....and....some descriptions of unique lords in a dragon magazine. Damn. Mr. Jacobs...Mr. Mona...someone! Throw NE a crumb or two. I think the point of NE is that it's supposed to be subtle and not show its face too often.
aushlo 05-31-07, 09:05 PM	There's really no confusion about Good vs. Law. I understand the difference just fine. I'm saying that Asmodeus is smart enought to know that revolution is chaos. If there is no one to crush, he's irrelevant. Revolution, disloyalty, etc are chaotic acts. In the real world, and in D&D, one can commit acts of Chaos and still be lawful, but it's a rare occurrance and if it happens too frequently, one's alignment shifts accordingly (assuming your DM calls you on it). But he encourages strife in his lieutenants? In short, he needs chaos. He just wants it to be chaos in small enough spurts to control it without risking his neck in a real fashion. He needs nails to smash flat, or he realizes that holding the hammer too long makes him look like an idiot, or crazy. His minions are encouraged to act in chaotic ways in order to keep him happy. Is there a point, really? 1984 or for that matter V for Vendetta are good examples, true. Don't both illustrate how incredibly stupid and pointless the idea is? I can tell you right now, my INT is not 30. I have not had millennia to think the plan through. But I get it, and you get it. He must. If not, either he's an idiot, or he doesn't care. In real history, tyrants of the LE persuasion, and those who act in such a way, are largely very short-sighted and limited in their views. And, really, usually burn out in relatively short order after a meteoric rise on the wings of fortuitous sequences of events. Perfection doesn't exist, perfect law doesn't either. Ask an attorney if the law is the same for everyone, really. The problem I have here is that Lawful Evil as represented by the Baatezu is awfully idiotic. Lawful Evil as an alignment is fine. I just can't for the life of me believe that such a society could exist for eons. In real life, it crumbles and fast. Honestly, think about how much time and energy the Baatezu (well, the writers I suppose) spend yammering about the Blood War, and how little about the war they make with the rest of the multiverse. Seems like Asmodeus spends all of his time boxing at shadows like his lessers, or the Abyss, an exercise in ego or futility respectively, rather than getting anything done elsewhere. The Tanar'ri are too crazy to realize they're being morons. Not a good excuse, certainly, but at least their madness makes it somewhat believable. The 'law' of the Abyss isn't far removed from the Hells, but it's more survival of the fittest than of the subtlest. Demogorgon exists because he's strong and willful enough to make the chaos its own, just one of the biggest and meanest things there. Like brilliant, mad wild animals. The alien mindset makes it work. I guess that my philosophical suspension of disbelief is stretched pretty thin by a LE mentality, even in real life. I can't believe that anyone with two brain cells to rub together hasn't realized the pointless nature of LE, control for its own sake. I think the Baatezu do, and always have, come off with racial motives that are too close to human experience and desires to work as the exemplars of an alignment, but I realize that problem is actually Asmodeus. The fact that there actually IS a man behind the curtain is what ruins it for me. I think Asmodeus as a symbol works fine I think the problem is, he actually exists. LE can work only as long as there is fear in those participating in the process. Asmodeus as a physical, powerful being with motivations and who can actually be fought or killed is crap. Asmodeus in the capacity of a LE Lady of Pain, however, would make a lot of sense. Representing fear and tyranny itself, but one which is unassailable, this would explain why the Baatezu could ever last so long. No top man you can actually knock off. Honestly, I really like the idea of no Baatezu ever really knowing who's at the pinnacle, just knowing they're a cog and being too afraid to ask questions of their superiors or really dig far enough to understand the process, that begins to make sense. That's it. Asmodeus is a concept. A shared, half-remembered dream of the One Who Fell, kept alive by fear and racial memory so that even the Lords don't realize what it actually is. Well, in my cosmology anyway. Heck, he always appears as a projection anyway....
ArcTan 05-31-07, 09:33 PM	There's really no confusion about Good vs. Law. I understand the difference just fine. I'm saying that Asmodeus is smart enought to know that revolution is chaos. If there is no one to crush, he's irrelevant. Revolution, disloyalty, etc are chaotic acts. In the real world, and in D&D, one can commit acts of Chaos and still be lawful, but it's a rare occurrance and if it happens too frequently, one's alignment shifts accordingly (assuming your DM calls you on it). But he encourages strife in his lieutenants? Conflict is not non-Lawful. Selfishness, ego, pride, hatred, bitterness, spite -- these are all Evil traits, and hallmarks of what it means to be Evil. Wanting to usurp someone's place because you feel you deserve it more than they do, because you ultimately think the whole world revolves around you, is what Lawful Evil is all about. Without it, you can't be Lawful Evil. Someone totally devoted to his lord with no will of his own *isn't Evil*. He's Lawful Neutral (if he follows because he believes it's what he's supposed to do, like a Modron) or just plain Neutral (if he follows because he has no choice at all, like a Golem). There's nothing Chaotic at all about "strife", at least not in the D&D sense. Saying that an LE creature must "have some Chaos" because he wants things for himself and not for others is like saying a CE creature must "have some Law" because he sometimes does what other people force him to do. In short, he needs chaos. He just wants it to be chaos in small enough spurts to control it without risking his neck in a real fashion. He needs nails to smash flat, or he realizes that holding the hammer too long makes him look like an idiot, or crazy. His minions are encouraged to act in chaotic ways in order to keep him happy. It's like saying Demogorgon needs his minions to "act Lawful" if they're ever going to do what he says. Doing what someone else says is not Lawful any more than *not* doing what someone else says is Chaotic. Law says you do *what you're supposed to do*. Chaos says you do *what you want to do*. There's no objective definition of either of those concepts. LE is based on the idea that "Everyone is supposed to be subordinate to me". CE is based on the idea that "I want to subordinate everyone to myself". They're totally different in flavor and means but, really, identical in what they are, which is Evil. Is there a point, really? 1984 or for that matter V for Vendetta are good examples, true. Don't both illustrate how incredibly stupid and pointless the idea is? I don't know about "stupid and pointless". Some people genuinely don't seem satisfied doing anything else but overcoming other people's wills and making other people suffer. Is it stupid and pointless from a Good perspective? Sure. They don't have that perspective. I can tell you right now, my INT is not 30. I have not had millennia to think the plan through. But I get it, and you get it. He must. If not, either he's an idiot, or he doesn't care. He doesn't care. The point of what he does is to make people suffer. That's what all Evil is. In real history, tyrants of the LE persuasion, and those who act in such a way, are largely very short-sighted and limited in their views. And, really, usually burn out in relatively short order after a meteoric rise on the wings of fortuitous sequences of events. Perfection doesn't exist, perfect law doesn't either. Ask an attorney if the law is the same for everyone, really. Well, neither does perfect Chaos. Most psychopaths who try to create total destruction are stymied as the rest of the world falls back into its natural order, and the System catches up with them. We live in a balance. None of these perspectives makes real sense *for us*, because we are not (thankfully) a totally Evil race and we can't live inside the Evil mindset for long without some part of us rebelling or some other part of the world coming to oppose us. Still, I don't see why what Asmodeus wants is "stupid". They're Devils, remember. Doing this is in their blood. They're not really capable of wanting or enjoying anything else. What should they do if *not* stab each other in the back? Enjoy the sunshine on their faces? The pleasure of each other's company? Relax with a nice big bowl of ice cream? The problem I have here is that Lawful Evil as represented by the Baatezu is awfully idiotic. Lawful Evil as an alignment is fine. I just can't for the life of me believe that such a society could exist for eons. In real life, it crumbles and fast. It's not a "society". It's Hell. I'm wondering why you don't have this same belief about the Abyss. If the answer is that "It's okay for Demons to ravenously tear at and smash each other because they're spirits, Outsiders, and can keep on coming back", well, the argument is exactly the same for Devils. They have eternity, and nothing to do with eternity but live out their nature. Honestly, think about how much time and energy the Baatezu (well, the writers I suppose) spend yammering about the Blood War, and how little about the war they make with the rest of the multiverse. Seems like Asmodeus spends all of his time boxing at shadows like his lessers, or the Abyss, an exercise in ego or futility respectively, rather than getting anything done elsewhere. What are the Archons doing? Why haven't they made everything perfect everywhere yet? Why haven't the Eladrins set all slaves free? If they'd wanted to write it differently, Asmodeus could be locked in an eternal, unending war with the Archons. He still wouldn't win. That's the point -- the planes are infinite and eternal. The balance can shift back and forth, but nothing will actually cause it to tip over any time soon. There's too many forces in the way. The Tanar'ri are too crazy to realize they're being morons. They aren't, actually. Not as I see them, anyway. They aren't supposed to be any less smart than the Baatezu, in any case. Not a good excuse, certainly, but at least their madness makes it somewhat believable. If you want to think of being congenitally Evil-aligned as a kind of "madness", go ahead. In that case the Baatezu are no less "mad" than the Tanar'ri. Any of the "productive" things you might want them to do, they *can't* do -- it's not in their nature. Geryon's the only Devil Lord who's ever violated the sacrosanct rule that a Devil Lord holds no *real* loyalty and no *real* love for anyone but himself -- and the result of which was his vanishing into nothing, into *less* than nothing, a Vestige. Asking why Asmodeus doesn't see that Tyranny For Tyranny's Sake is "pointless" and instead go plant flowers on Elysium is like asking why the Archons can't be tempted or bribed into Evil. They just can't, at least not except once in a very, very long time. They aren't really people and they don't think like people -- they think like abstractions of one *part* of the way people think, which is what they are. The 'law' of the Abyss isn't far removed from the Hells, but it's more survival of the fittest than of the subtlest. Demogorgon exists because he's strong and willful enough to make the chaos its own, just one of the biggest and meanest things there. Like brilliant, mad wild animals. The alien mindset makes it work. Baatezu are also "alien". They can't decide to just break the rules any more than Demons can decide to just stop acting on their impulses. I guess that my philosophical suspension of disbelief is stretched pretty thin by a LE mentality, even in real life. I can't believe that anyone with two brain cells to rub together hasn't realized the pointless nature of LE, control for its own sake. But you can believe that people want to break things for its own sake? I think the Baatezu do, and always have, come off with racial motives that are too close to human experience and desires to work as the exemplars of an alignment, but I realize that problem is actually Asmodeus. The fact that there actually IS a man behind the curtain is what ruins it for me. I think Asmodeus as a symbol works fine I think the problem is, he actually exists. LE can work only as long as there is fear in those participating in the process. Asmodeus as a physical, powerful being with motivations and who can actually be fought or killed is crap. Asmodeus in the capacity of a LE Lady of Pain, however, would make a lot of sense. Representing fear and tyranny itself, but one which is unassailable, this would explain why the Baatezu could ever last so long. No top man you can actually knock off. Who's to say that's not the case? I mean, I never liked giving Asmodeus stats to start with, but even if he could really be knocked off, who's to say that the person taking his place wouldn't just become another Asmodeus? Hell feeds and sustains itself. No one who buys into the system can sell out of it again. Once you start playing the game, you play it for life. Even the "man on top" is still playing by the rules. It may be that his manipulations like the Reckoning exist because if the Archdevils didn't have someone to try to knock off, there'd literally be nothing for them to do -- they have to *believe* that they can be top man someday, even if it's never going to happen, and even if being top man just means sitting there trying not to be knocked off. Honestly, I really like the idea of no Baatezu ever really knowing who's at the pinnacle, just knowing they're a cog and being too afraid to ask questions of their superiors or really dig far enough to understand the process, that begins to make sense. That's it. Asmodeus is a concept. A shared, half-remembered dream of the One Who Fell, kept alive by fear and racial memory so that even the Lords don't realize what it actually is. Well, in my cosmology anyway. Heck, he always appears as a projection anyway.... Sure. The implication is always supposed to be that Asmodeus is much more than he seems.
aushlo 05-31-07, 11:19 PM	Eh. This has become really boring now. Look, keep your opinions, I'll not convince you or bother shooting back and forth on a subject that has no right answer. No one can win this particular debate, so I'm pretty much done. Alignment is an abstraction, and I personally think there's more shades of behavior here than you seem to, but it's your game. I think devils are pointless and boring as written, the new book was more of the same boring it ever was. Beating the vaguely Judeo-Christian Adversary clone to death is just uninteresting. Sorry. I like kicking ideas around, this is not a geek-fight and I hope that's clear. Also, dude. Quit with the poo-talk, Ao-boy. You'll get banned. I don't care, but someone will.
hobbit for hire 05-31-07, 11:50 PM	Both of them bow to Christopher Walken.
sciborg2 06-01-07, 03:49 AM	Only if he's been getting enough "cow bell"
pratputajao 06-01-07, 04:25 AM	Evil always shoots itself in the foot. Besides...i want to throw NE Yugoloths/Daemons into the mix (i have noticed many calling them Daemons again....did i miss something?) . Personally I am an old 1st edition guy and never liked the silly names of Yugoloth, Tana'ri, Baatezu- Nonsence to me. Originally the name change was done out of fear of the righ wing Crazy Christians who persecuted the game back in the 80s. No other reason. Remeber back in (the begining anyway) 2nd ED there were no leaders of the demons and a group of 9 or 12 pit fiends ruled hell. Demogorgon, Baphomet and Yeenagho beceme Gods and had no dealings with demons...eh...I mean tanar'ri, though they did live in the abyss. Those names may be used but in our game thay arent *the* names of these beings. I stopped playinig for a while Mid 2nd edition so I am not sure how things changed. I know they kinda brought the arch devil/demon lords back but I am not sure how it happened
Naderion 06-01-07, 01:35 PM	It's actually quite simple. Chaotic Evil Outsiders are all Demons. Among all these demons, there is one race, that is called the Tanar'ri. A Tanar'ri evolves over time as it gains power, just like dragons do as they age, but unlike dragons, a tanar'ri changes into a completely different form than it had before the change. It's the same for the Devils, where there is one race, that is the Baatezu, that undergoes very strong changes, as they rise in power. Technically, Barbazu, Osyluths and Pit Fiends are the same creature, just in different stadiums of their existance. Kytons are just Kytons and Hellcats are just Hellcats. Both are devils, because they are Lawful Evil outsiders, but they are not related to the Baatezu. The Yugoloths are also just one race of Neutral Evil outsiders, yeth hounds and nightmares are others, but there is no term that names all NE outsiders as a group, like Demon or Devil. Demon Lords and Arch-Devils can be Tanar'ri or Baatezu, but they don't have to.
ArcTan 06-01-07, 02:38 PM	In the case of Archdevils, they do kind of have to be, because the nature of Hell makes it unlikely that any non-Baatezu Archdevil would be accepted by their subordinates for long. Look at what happened to the Hag Countess. I don't mind the idea that we should have a word for NE Outsiders that's all-encompassing and has some basis in folklore to match "Demon" and "Devil". I just don't like the silliness of using "Daemon" as a word that means something totally different from "Demon". The words "Devil" and "Demon" aren't *that* universal, anyway. Howlers aren't named as Demons even though they're CE Outsiders and have the Chaos and Evil subtypes. Efreet and Rakshasa are Always Lawful Evil but certainly aren't Devils.
DM Denubis 06-01-07, 03:22 PM	I find it funny that so many people think Demogorgon would beat Asmodeus. Asmodeus casts as a level 20 cleric. That means that Asmodeus can cast Antimagic Field. Poor Demogorgon now has no chance to win. Ever. Almost all of Demogorgon's abilities are supernatural, and therefore cancelled out by the field. Sure, technically, even without any of his abilities, he would outmelee Asmodeus. But who says Asmodeus is going to stand there and swing? Asmodeus has a natural fly speed, and Demogorgon doesn't. Mode of attack? Easy. The Ruby Rod is an artifact, and therefore not cancelled out by the field. Demogorgon's SR isn't a problem because according to the BoVD, the abilities are supernatural and therefore are not subject to SR. All Asmodeus has to do is fly around and keep blasting away with whatever ability he feels like using off the rod. Unless Demogorgon can survive over three hours per casting of AMF (Which Asmo can prepare multiple times, and use the rod to refresh once per day.), he's doomed, and Asmo likely got off without a scratch.
Bob the Efreet 06-01-07, 03:53 PM	Asmodeus has a natural fly speed, and Demogorgon doesn't. This is the worst argument ever. I hate it even more because it's valid.
The Serge7 06-01-07, 05:34 PM	Hadn't thought about that anti-magic trick... Nice. Of course, Demogorgon can cast fly on himself and chase after Asmodeus, but he won't be as fast or as manueverable.
aushlo 06-01-07, 07:58 PM	I find it funny that so many people think Demogorgon would beat Asmodeus. Asmodeus casts as a level 20 cleric. That means that Asmodeus can cast Antimagic Field. Poor Demogorgon now has no chance to win. Ever. Almost all of Demogorgon's abilities are supernatural, and therefore cancelled out by the field. Sure, technically, even without any of his abilities, he would outmelee Asmodeus. But who says Asmodeus is going to stand there and swing? Asmodeus has a natural fly speed, and Demogorgon doesn't. Mode of attack? Easy. The Ruby Rod is an artifact, and therefore not cancelled out by the field. Demogorgon's SR isn't a problem because according to the BoVD, the abilities are supernatural and therefore are not subject to SR. All Asmodeus has to do is fly around and keep blasting away with whatever ability he feels like using off the rod. Unless Demogorgon can survive over three hours per casting of AMF (Which Asmo can prepare multiple times, and use the rod to refresh once per day.), he's doomed, and Asmo likely got off without a scratch. Not bad points. But again, Demo can dispel twice a round to make the spell not happen. And I don't think that the Rod has Supernatural (Su) abilities any more than Drow descriptive text makes them (Evil). Looking at Tyrants of the Nine Hells, nothing (Su) mentioned there either. I think it's flavor text, not game effect. Come to think of it, the text in Asmodeus' summoning power in BoVD doesn't say he can summon the Lords either. Again, a somewhat assumptive/hopeful reading of the text. The later version most certainly can, but the later version of Asmo may as well just get a double leash and smack the later Demogorgon with a rolled-up newspaper rather than lift a finger. I bet he'd be a pain to paper train. In any case, Demogorgon would certainly get a big double headache here trying to reach Asmoeus, but I don't think the Rod's abilities are intended in either version of Asmodeus to be (Su). He does have Teleport Without Error, which could get him close enough to the field to charge in, or just to drop on Asmodeus from above. If he's aerial. Really, Asmodeus could use the Rod to cast the Wall of Force/Antimagic field and sit and wait, but he can't cast anything through the Wall of Force even from the rod. I personally was going with the oft-memorized list in the book, as in any realistic scenario there will in fact be a bazillion goons and lieutenants, spells and counters to even the field, and magic items not in any book (Demogorgon's Item Mastery isn't given any real detail, but it makes you wonder what at any point he's holding. Same for Asmodeus, but this is primarily Demogorgon's forte). I figure it all comes out in the wash or, as I said, Demogorgon does one better since he's a bit smarter and in most relevant skills he has a five-point advantage (Spellcraft, Concentration, all the useful Knowledges for fighting a spellcaster/outsider). It does fill me with glee that Asmodeus in every victory scenario seems to need to call for help or hide somewhere. Not that I'd blame him. It comes down, really, to an initiative roll and a save or two. But Demogorgon's the favorite by a very narrow margin for most scenarios, he simply is a tad better at most everything short of spellcasting.
aushlo 06-01-07, 08:09 PM	I'm also going with the Everything Cancels Out or Contestants Dropped Suddenly Into the Ring idea, since no one can predict what would happen with sufficent planning and power/ally brokering. Asmodeus has a trick up his sleeve with his Domain power, but Demo actually knows more about Hell than Asmodeus stat-wise (49 vs. 45 Kno:Planes. Yes, I know this is an absurd point but so is the wj=hole thread) , so will plan counters pretty darned effectively.
DM Denubis 06-01-07, 10:35 PM	But Demogorgon's the favorite by a very narrow margin for most scenarios, he simply is a tad better at most everything short of spellcasting. Sorry, I don't think you're giving Asmo enough credit. You honestly think Demogorgon is stronger? Let's look at this another way. Every time Demogorgon makes an attack roll against Asmodeus, he has to make a Will save. I'll admit that he passes on anything but a 1, but Demogorgon is making ten melee attacks a round. That's a fifty percent chance of failure every round. And if he fails? He bows down helpless in front of Asmodeus for a full round. Asmodeus decides that it's time to lay the smackdown on Demogorgon, power attacks for 35 (Because they're outsider HD, not class levels, his BAB doesn't stop at 20.), and delivers the coup de grace. Also known as "Crunch." Granted, again, he needs to have AMF to protect himself from Rot and the like, but he can reprepare spells! It's not like he can't get exactly what he needs to fight Demogorgon during the fight itself. I'm not even willing to admit that it's even. Asmo's got this, hands down.
aushlo 06-02-07, 01:08 AM	They both have gaze attacks. Asmo can use one or the other gaze, or demand submission, on any of which Demo needs a 5 to save. Meanwhile, Demo can use both his Charm monster and Confusion every turn in addition to making attacks, and Asmo needs an 8 to save on either. Either contestant can look away to not risk it, but it's not in Demogorgon's best interests to do anything but go for the jugular. Demand submission would win the day if it works, of course. I rather think that Charm and Confusion would be mean too, and again, Demo can hit with both each round, plus make two full attacks. With a good Charm Monster, he could ask to examine the rod, for example, and once given willingly, it won't harm him immediately, plus he can use it with Item Mastery. Put it this way- Asmodeus can, if he wins initiative, activate the Rod and gaze, or Demand Submission (a one-trick pony) and gaze, with two chances to roll a 5 for Demo. If he fails initiative and makes his saves, there's Asmodeus on a platter, ready for ten attacks and two gazes. Two of those attacks are energy drain, two more are Con drain, at 10's to resist. If hit, Asmodeus is hurting from con drain and/or level loss. If he makes initiative, he just steps up and starts beating on him. If he makes either of his gaze attacks count, he likely has enough time to take Asmodeus apart basically at his leisure. Asmodeus flies away. Demogorgon teleports right on top of him. Asmodeus is tricky as all Hell (literally), but he's really ill-equipped to deal with a brute like a demon prince. Put him against a PC party, he'll take them apart pretty readily. I'm not saying it won't take a good ten, fifteen rounds. But put 'em alone in the ring, Demogorgon comes out on top more likely than not. It's not impossible for Asmodeus to win by any means, but he'd need quite a run of early luck. Demogorgon needs so-so luck.
aushlo 06-02-07, 01:26 AM	I forgot. A gaze works once, at the top of the attacker's initiative, before their own actions, each round of combat. Not with every incoming attack. So there's the one save at the top, the one Submission (which, if it fails, never works again). Coup de grace from either party is going to be a failed save and a death. Asmodeus is the only one who can possibly set it up right off, but has only a 20% chance for Submission to work. IF he gets initiative and doesn't get the whammy himself.
DM Denubis 06-02-07, 01:29 AM	I wasn't referring to his gaze attack. I was referring to the ability on the Ruby Rod.
PunkRockBard 06-02-07, 01:31 AM	I think the point of NE is that it's supposed to be subtle and not show its face too often.[/QUOTE] I agree. However, i do believe that a FC III...or more elaboration on the Yugoloths and their archfiends...can be done without compromising that. i think that the lack of info on the loths compared to devils and demons is due to neglect more than upholding an aura of mystery.
aushlo 06-02-07, 01:46 AM	Ah, gotcha. Fair point. But that doesn't translate to a 50% chance, it means ten 5% chances. Like ten 95% chances to pass are not equal to a 950% chance to pass. I wish I could remember my statistics right now, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way this works. Argh. Regardless, I'll concede that that's something i'd forgotten, but it's still an Asmodeus gets a break sorta thing. His chances of pulling it off are comparable to Demogorgon's of getting the Rod from him.
DM Denubis 06-02-07, 01:59 AM	Ah, gotcha. Fair point. But that doesn't translate to a 50% chance, it means ten 5% chances. Like ten 95% chances to pass are not equal to a 950% chance to pass. I wish I could remember my statistics right now, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way this works. Argh. Regardless, I'll concede that that's something i'd forgotten, but it's still an Asmodeus gets a break sorta thing. His chances of pulling it off are comparable to Demogorgon's of getting the Rod from him. It means that if I have ten trials, and a five percent chance of success, I have a fifty percent chance of getting at least one success. (It actually means that in ten trials, success should occur .5 times, but it's the same thing.) What I don't understand is why you keep coming back to this "Asmodeus gets a break" idea. It's not really getting a break if he's planning to wear Demogorgon out until his defense triggers. As far as gazes, please keep in mind that they're supernatural, which means that they won't affect Asmodeus through AMF. Antimagic field is the true weakness of Demogorgon. While he's in one, he really can't do all that much. Granted, neither can Asmodeus, but at least his rod still functions.
aushlo 06-02-07, 03:31 AM	I'm just a little numb to the Asmodeus as ultimate tricky cleverpants bit when as I've said, Demogorgon is smarter. All skills that come into play, he has a significant point advantage in. So why on earth is anyone assuming Asmodeus is the trickier of the two? Demogorgon has been around a very long time, has significant advantages in statistics, access to whatever freaky wisdom Dagon imparts (who it would seem has been around for a great deal longer than Asmodeus or Demogorgon), and yet the argument is that Asmodeus will be the one who plans better, because... well, no good reason, really. Asmodeus studies up? So does Demogorgon. Makes an artifact or three himself. The assumption seems to be that Demogorgon isn't also brilliant and a planner. Like he hasn't spent eons fighting a number of powers himself. I think that people who like Asmodeus more, want him to win. And vice versa. Antimagic field? Okay. He has to pull it off first, which is touch and go, advantage to Demogorgon in initiative. How then does he fight effectively? He tries to beat Demogorgon to death? He nullifies every one of his own most potent abilities by using the field. The flipside of the argument? Okay, twenty rounds (two minutes) of Antimagic Field, times six or seven I believe. Asmodeus buys himself maybe twelve or fourteen minutes wherein he can't cast spells himself either. Demogorgon very likely makes his Spellcraft, detects magic e.t.c., knows it's coming, teleports at will out of harm's way until the duration expires. Now what? C'mon, guys. he does look like a two headed lizard/monkey but he won't fight like one. Worst case scenario barring Submission, move 50, teleport, now out of the field until he's ready to try again. Asmodeus does have the advantage of being Tim Curry, which may be insurmountable.
Naderion 06-02-07, 05:16 AM	I don't really think either of them could really destroy the other by simple combat. First, they wouldn't leave the safety of their realms, if they really expect a fight, that could harm them and second, inside their own realm, I would say even such powerfull outsiders as Asmodeus or Demogorgon wouldn't have a chance to best them in battle.
Snarkbone 06-02-07, 10:16 AM	I'm surprised how long this thread is lasting, and mostly because almost no one reads what others post. Sad, very sad. This is supposed to be a community.
pratputajao 06-02-07, 10:37 AM	C'mon, guys. he does look like a two headed lizard/monkey but he won't fight like one Thats a good quote..hehe
DM Denubis 06-02-07, 12:52 PM	I'm just a little numb to the Asmodeus as ultimate tricky cleverpants bit when as I've said, Demogorgon is smarter. When did I say anything about him being smarter? It's not a difficult plan. I came up with it. I do not have an intelligence stat of 30. All skills that come into play, he has a significant point advantage in. So why on earth is anyone assuming Asmodeus is the trickier of the two? Demogorgon has been around a very long time, has significant advantages in statistics, access to whatever freaky wisdom Dagon imparts (who it would seem has been around for a great deal longer than Asmodeus or Demogorgon), and yet the argument is that Asmodeus will be the one who plans better, because... well, no good reason, really. Asmodeus studies up? So does Demogorgon. Makes an artifact or three himself. The assumption seems to be that Demogorgon isn't also brilliant and a planner. Like he hasn't spent eons fighting a number of powers himself. Plan plan plan plan, is that all you want to talk about? The situation is that they are fighting each other as written in the BoVD. Demogorgon has no artifacts. Asmodeus has one. Look, Asmodeus knows his own powers. He knows he's a bit of a slouch in melee. He also knows that if Demogorgon keeps going for melee attacks, he'll eventually kneel down before Asmodeus, who can crush him like an insect in one attack. This is not a difficult concept. I think that people who like Asmodeus more, want him to win. And vice versa. Antimagic field? Okay. He has to pull it off first, which is touch and go, advantage to Demogorgon in initiative. Wait. Demogorgon gets to craft a few artifacts, but Asmodeus can't precast AMF? How then does he fight effectively? He tries to beat Demogorgon to death? He nullifies every one of his own most potent abilities by using the field. Yeah, after this post, I'm done talking about this. You clearly do not understand anything I'm telling you. I'm going to explain this ONE MORE TIME. This is an endurance match for Asmodeus. Antimagic field is nothing but a protection spell for him, to protect from Demogorgon's significantly powerful supernatural abilites. His entire idea is to allow Demogorgon to keep attacking him until he fails his will save that he needs to make EVERY ATTACK, and bows down before Asmodeus. Asmodeus will then coup de grace, and win the fight. The flipside of the argument? Okay, twenty rounds (two minutes) of Antimagic Field, times six or seven I believe. Asmodeus buys himself maybe twelve or fourteen minutes wherein he can't cast spells himself either. Please read the duration on the spell antimagic field. I'll wait. Demogorgon very likely makes his Spellcraft, detects magic e.t.c., knows it's coming, teleports at will out of harm's way until the duration expires. Now what? Now he's outside the antimagic field and can't target Asmodeus with any sort of supernatural ability. So he can kinda just sit around and be all, "Yo, guys, I'm Demogorgon. How's it going?", or he can try to melee Asmodeus to kill him, which is what Asmodeus wants him to do. Anyhow, I'm done. It's like you said. Even though Asmodeus clearly has the advantage because of the versatility of his spellcasting, you're going to cling to Demogorgon's one point of intelligence and say that he'll outsmart Asmodeus no matter what he does. And, I mean, Demogorgon is so much smarter that he can craft a few artifacts in advance, but Asmodeus is so stupid that he can't precast a spell. Please.
pratputajao 06-02-07, 01:33 PM	Plan plan plan plan, is that all you want to talk about? The situation is that they are fighting each other as written in the BoVD. Demogorgon has no artifacts. Asmodeus has one. And as written in the BOVD Asmodeus doent have anti magic field memorized. If you just throw them together Asmodeus has memorized what it says in BOVD. (I will admit I may have missed it, if so disreguard post. All I saw was Anti life shell memorized)
DM Denubis 06-02-07, 03:02 PM	And as written in the BOVD Asmodeus doent have anti magic field memorized. If you just throw them together Asmodeus has memorized what it says in BOVD. (I will admit I may have missed it, if so disreguard post. All I saw was Anti life shell memorized) The Ruby Red Rod lets him benefit from a full day's rest, so there's nothing to stop him from preparing it then.
aushlo 06-03-07, 12:26 AM	I thought about it. It's true, Asmodeus does win. A Tale of Woe: Okay, here goes. Asmodeus gets the initiative. Activates the Rod, which for some reason Demogorgon has failed to read up on or something, only having rolled a 1 each on Kno: Planes, Kno: Arcana and Kno: Spellcraft. Plus, he's stupid and knows nothing about creating magic tems or artifacts, because I guess I swapped out his Item Mastery for something awesome like Toughness or Skill Focus: Craft: Crochet. Asmodeus(Muffled, from inside the antimagic force bubble): MWAHAHA! MU HA! HA. MMM. Whooo. MWWA HAAAAA! Casts spells for like thirteen days straight, getting a 20 on every roll to not suffocate inside the Wall of Force. He can't move, summon, or cast spells/effects outside the bubble, nor can Demogorgon teleport in. Demogorgon walks right into the field of antimagic, not knowing, because he is thinking about bananas or flinging poo or something, that something just happened. Because he hasn't bothered to use any skills, let alone Detect Magic, because of the bananas. Also, there was a Cheeto dropped on the floor, which was like totally sweet, but which his heads have totally, like, been fighting over. Aameul: DIBS! Hethradiah: NUH UH! Aameul: Uh, YEAH. Hethradiah: Uh, NO WAY! (this sort of thing continues for a good ten minutes. The Cheeto, a clever trap by Asmodeus because it's totally, like Dis, who's been waiting in polymorphed Cheeto form for, like, 500 years, because Asmodeus TOTALLY knew how everything would go down because he always rolls 20's on everything, like, ever, and because The Devil (But Not Really) is Wicked Sweet. Finally: ) Hethradiah: Your mom! Both: Huh huh huh. YOUR MOM! Huh. Demogorgon plays air guitar for a while Aameul doing the squeely bits while Hethradiah does the chuggy ones, forgetting all about Asmodeus because they're totally rocking AC/DC or something (which is, I know, ironic). Asmodeus, meanwhile, has totally figured out how to beat up Demogorgon. He readies his nefarious plan, double checks his plan, writes it down for next time, calls his next of kin just in case, asks the DM via a number of Divinations from when he dropped the bubble for a few hours and had a cigarette (because he's evil and it looks cool) if his plan is likely to work, then they high five, because the DM and Asmo are tight like that. Demogorgon has been watching cartoons or clumsily attempting to play Dance Dance Revolution, which he used his Item Mastery to make, along with a simple lever or pointed stick or something. The shield drops. Asmodeus gets the initiative, which either he kept or just rerolled. Flies into the air, straight up, just out of reach but within Gaze range. He is jacked up on nicotine and about a million spells. Also a Starbucks Mocha, which is DELICIOUS. Devilishly so, one might say. (Ba-da! Ching!) Asmodeus: DIE, 'PRINCE' OF THE ABYSS. Demogorgon fails a Will save vs. Chill Gaze, because he can't roll a 5 or whatever, and of course totally meets Asmodeus’ gaze because he’s a little special. Proceeds to pee himself. Which is a free action, unlike a #2. Well, maybe for some people. Not me, okay? His rolls are mostly now at-5. Aameul: (whimper) Scared now. Give cookie instead? Hethradiah: (Whine. Looks at Aameul.) Him have cookie? Is scary cookie? No wanna cookie. Asmodeus: KNEEL BEFORE ME, VERMIN. MWA-HA. Asmodeus has decided to go with something more traditional, blasting the crap out of Demogorgon with the Rod as he’s out of reach and Ao himself couldn’t right now touch him. One of the damage dice is a 5, not a 6. He’s now cranky. Regardless, Demogorgon takes a ton of damage because he has both failed his save and the DM has ruled that SR is not applicable, for some reason that escapes me. Demogorgon: OWIE OWIE OW! QUIT IT! (begins to cry uncontrollably. Huge snot bubbles, mascara running, occasional snorting shudders, e.t.c.) Zuggtmoy, his date to the Abyssal Prom, chooses this moment to show up. Seeing him in such a wretched state, throws out the corsage that he made her get him because he’s an idiot and doesn’t know the girl gets the corsage. Calls Juiblex as back-up. He’s a huge jerk, and has terrible acne, but at least he’s on the swim team. Demogorgon runs around being blasted, completely forgetting his powers of Fly and Greater Teleport. He has approximately two hit points left before Asmodeus breaks a sweat. Finally, Asmodeus lands to do battle. Demogorgon has actually been running around because he likes running arund screaming, as the Fear effect wore off ages ago. He finally makes a full attack, twice. Rolls a 1. Kneels, blubbering. Asmodeus Coup De Graces him. Urinates on his corpse, writes a best seller called Demogorgon is a Big Two-Headed Monkey Face and I Beat his Mangy Butt, makes millions with a movie deal and sequels wherein he’s cast as himself (in the third film, Christopher Walken plays Satan, who is like a lame rip-off of Asmodeus, and Asmodeus totally like kicks his butt and uses the Rod to enslave him into flipping burgers for eternity.) He records a platinum-selling Hip-Hop record guest starring Snoop Dogg, Sting, Amy Lee, Ozzy Osbourne, Freddy Mercury, Mike Patton, Bjork and Mozart, who he’s raised from the dead to rock, entitled Hip Hop Inferno. MOO HOO HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Aaaaand still never wins the Blood War or defeats the Heavens. Under no circumstances does Demogorgon do the following: -Gain the Initiative. -Improved Disarm Asmodeus and use the Rod against him. -Withdraw briefly if stymied. -Teleport in close so neither the bubble nor the Wall of Force is an issue so much anymore, if he gains the initiative. -Act remotely intelligent or know what he’s getting into. -Leave the antimagic zone or notice it’s there. For some strange reason, regardless of his brilliance. Cheeto anyone? Dis: Heh.
aushlo 06-03-07, 12:33 AM	What if there was a Hecatonchires and it swiped the Rod?
The_Hedgewizard 06-03-07, 01:13 AM	I thought about it. It's true, Asmodeus does win. A Tale of Woe: . . . ^ lulz ^
pratputajao 06-03-07, 03:19 AM	I thought about it. It's true, Asmodeus does win. A Tale of Woe: Well, you convinced me...hehe :D
ArcTan 06-03-07, 05:25 AM	Basically, this thread is a demonstration of why having stats for Demogorgon and Asmodeus undermines everything interesting about their characters, at least for me.
Witch 06-03-07, 05:49 AM	Basically, this thread is a demonstration of why having stats for Demogorgon and Asmodeus undermines everything interesting about their characters, at least for me. Not really. It's a demonstration of why having too simple stats undermines everything interesting about their characters.
Issabella 06-03-07, 09:42 AM	While I do want my players characters to be the focus of the story and not over shadowed by every npc out there (difficult in Forgotten realms) I do truly hate when a famed NPC(or monster) that the game publishes could not possibly be equal to the authors and general game legend has the creature doing. For me the best (worst) two examples of this where in Champions of Ruin. Dendar the Night Serpent, the monster that is supposed to be part of the destruction of the world, the embodiment of all nightmares, and the sign of the end of all things. as a cr 26. You could type your fingers down with already established npc's that could wipe the floor with the Night Serpent. Kezef the Chaos Hound, The gods are terrified of this being, it devours souls. Mask, the god of rogues has to hide from it and it tore off one of his legs (I think, its been awhile) and all the gods are in a conundrum over what to do with this being...and its a cr21 A solar could punk it easy. I know players need villains to fight, but the disconnect between something that the gods are terrified of, but a lower level party can destroy, makes no sense. (and no in the book neither creature has a "immune to god powers" clause that only mortals can effect it.)
sebastienurbanek 06-03-07, 01:12 PM	I'm agree w/ you Isabella. The GM and players must focus ON THE STORY/ ADVENTURE and not on the fictional monsters. Demogorgon vs. ASmo who win? (each has his/her point of view and nobody agree w/ others).For endind the debate in FC 2 the text saids that Asmo is one of the most powerful entities of the universe. The gods don't crushed him... thus is very powerful. His goal is to rule the universe (for Demo is just avoiding backstabbing by others demon lords; He rules one layer of the abyss, Asmo rule an entire plane created by him; in Fc 2 in Baator He can doing nearly all magic...not Demo; thus he's more powerful that Demo who is just a powerful demon (but less that his demon thralls in FC 1...) For me D&D is a very good game but at low levels ( 1 to 15;the characters are affraid by mere gobs, or to visit a cemetery...). At very high level (20+) it's a non sense to me; epic rules are failure. The players must stay on the mortal levels ; in champions of ruins divine archetypal monsters (gods affraid by them) are stated (and epic characters can kill them)...non sense. In deities & demigods, gods are stated...non sense In epic rules infernals are more powerful that archfiends...non sense. In AD&D 1 archfiends were more powerful that thralls (DEmogorgon 200 hp, type 6 demons 8+8 HD.. I prefer this concept, that balors with 24 Hd and the master with 27 Hd; Even in the BoVD the demon fighters of demogorgon were CR 27 and the prince of demon CR 30...a non sense). For me aspects are a very good idea...
pratputajao 06-03-07, 01:58 PM	I'm agree w/ you Isabella. The GM and players must focus ON THE STORY/ ADVENTURE and not on the fictional monsters. Demogorgon vs. ASmo who win? (each has his/her point of view and nobody agree w/ others).For endind the debate in FC 2 the text saids that Asmo is one of the most powerful entities of the universe. ... Yes and in BOVD it says of Demogorgon "very few beings can face Demogorgon and survive." AGAIN, Asmo became in FC 2 more powerful ( then again compared to a god he is less than nothing) Its really gets old when the stats chage depending on who the author of the particular book is and who they think should be tougher. In two years DG may be a greater god (or no longer prince of demons, actually expecting that one) according to the books! I just go back to the original game and stat them out from there as They were intended from the begining. (and they are still gods) They are roughly equel representing the most powerful of their kind But I agree that the stats have become a joke when Asmo is "one of the most Powerful beings in the Universe" yet Kurtelemak{SP all wrong;) } god of kobolds would waste him and FAST,( go over to Dice freaks and see what I mean) and DG is a bieng few can face and survive and yet the Mightly kobold god would do the same to him. These stats lack common sence. Why the hell would *any*god respect either of them? I dont care if Asmo Rules hell any lesser god can kill him and all his dukes. We have never let players take out Demon lords or arch Devils. They may battle an avatar or something but even then it is a huge event. The game in my view has gone to almost promoting superhero like charecters
aushlo 06-03-07, 04:36 PM	Stats do indeed take all the interest out of Powers. The mini-avatars/aspects are an interesting way to represent their power, but no group of mortals should face a Power of any sort directly, or even their major aspect, and expect to live. The chance of ever even seeing one is exceedingly slim. Planescapes has it very right, here. Same thing in the White Wolf books-the original big vampires don't have stats. Their immediate 'offspring' have such ridiculous stats as to be almost unbeatable, and are supposed to be no where close to their sires' power. If you face Asmodeus, Demogorgon, whoever, and can say after three or four Resurrections and/or Wishes that you're still around, you got off easy. Frankly, I think even seeing one of these monsters and surviving is reward enough for most reasonable players.
sciborg2 06-03-07, 05:08 PM	In many religions, mortals do contest against the gods and at times emerge victorious. Don't think of gods as supreme beings or even necessarily immortals, the word 'god' is hugely overloaded....
sciborg2 06-03-07, 05:14 PM	For some strange reason, regardless of his brilliance. Cheeto anyone? Dis: Heh. :rofl: :bow:
Shemeska the Marauder 06-03-07, 09:12 PM	Asmo rule an entire plane created by him; Though he rules it, Asmo didn't create Baator. Baator as a plane already existed well before he arrived there, and he and his minions displaced its original inhabitants the Ancient Baatorians, some of whom still exist. FC:2 simply didn't explore the issue and presented its myths entirely from the perspective of the Baatezu (which follows well in the traditions of historical revisionism practiced by any good totalitarian system).
sciborg2 06-03-07, 09:18 PM	True, the 'leths had a fiendish empire across the entire lower planes long before the so called "big 3" races ever showed up. This is mentioned in various Planescape supplements. ;) (well, it IS mentioned...)
sebastienurbanek 06-04-07, 01:32 AM	In the preface of FC 2 p 5, asmo said to the gods: "we will build a perfect hell for you. You will gain from its existence but need never lay eyes upon it.We shall put it ...there" And he (asmo) pointed to an empty land, wich is now called Baator. In p 73: " upon reaching the plain of Baator, he plunged through the nascent layers he had begun to shape. As unquestionned master of Baator, Asmo can work nearly any magic within its boundaries as an act of will. He can alter the forms of others archdukes, though he might not be able to slay them outright". Thus Asmo is more powerful that Demo. He's like a greater god in hell. The ancient Baatorian is now abandonned like a myth (a good idea), and very powerful loths too (it was in planescape; a good idea too). The first evil race was obyrith demons from the early formed abyss and the gods of law wanted to crush them...
aushlo 06-04-07, 02:09 AM	Let's not go believing Baatezu or Tanar'ri versions of history now.... Seems very ill advised.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-04-07, 02:12 AM	...snip... FC:2 presents its myths as exactly that, myths which even openly admit that they might not be factual, and whose names and specifics shift to match the gods of different worlds. A core bit of it seems tangibly true, that the Baatezu first originated as a fallen face of Lawful beings, with Asmodeus as their leader, but beyond that it's uncertain and filled with revisionist history. The ancient Baatorian is now abandonned like a myth (a good idea), and very powerful loths too (it was in planescape; a good idea too). No, it's not. They're openly named in FC:I and they're alluded to in FC:II if you're familiar with the earlier material and know where to look (the dogai strongly hint at being a form of ancient baatorians resculpted and forged into new beings by the Baatezu who took over the plane, and the city buried in Cania's ice was an ancient baatorian city). The first evil race was obyrith demons from the early formed abyss and the gods of law wanted to crush them... Hardly, considering that FC:I confirms that they arrived in the Abyss from elsewhere after being created by an earlier fiendish race (aka the baernaloths), and it's mentioned both in and out of character in the text. The particulars of just what happened regarding their formation and migration are fuzzy, but the Obyriths weren't the first evil race as you claim, nor would there have been gods at the time to oppose them since those didn't arise till much later in planar prehistory. If FC:2 is to be seen as holding any in-game historical fact, what it refers to as gods wouldn't have been gods, but only a much later reinterpretation of the myth, and they would originally have been primal beings of Law (with Asmodeus being either a servant of them, or among their ranks).
Kobold_Avenger 06-04-07, 02:19 AM	Keep in mind a god's power is based on the number and zeal of their worshipers.(at least in FR) Thats why Lloth has a higher divine rank than Tiamat. Although by that logic Big K ought to be one of the most powerful gods.
Saydivosh 06-04-07, 02:38 AM	Assuming that they are in an arena and not in their own home planes. First, take in the fact that Demogorgon and Asmodeus are polar opposites. One is the embodiment of Law, the other of Chaos. This is a major shift in the usual axis of good versus evil. Demogorgon is more bestial which suits a tanarri, but Asmodeus definitely has the more powerful magic, including the Rod of Nessus which allows him to summon the power to completely restore himself and all of his abilities, basically giving him a second chance...and I think that he can do that once/day. So...even if Demogorgon beat Asmodeus to within an inch of his life, Asmodeus would still have the power to regenerate himself. However, Demogorgon is an entity of chaos and more than that, madness. It is very possible that he could drive the old devil insane. Plus they have the ability to gate in many demons and pile the arena full of bodies...if I read the post correctly. But consider for one second what would happen if one or the other did run out. The only thing saving the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia from being overtaken is the Blood War...and really, I think that the angels have more affairs in the Blood War than any demons or devils would...war serves the purpose of heaven more than hell, right? Otherwise, you return to that first division: good vs. evil and let's face it, the Infinite Layers of the Abyss+the Nine Hells=enevitable destruction of all that is good. But personally, all "crunch" aside I believe that Demogorgon would whip the $%!# out of Asmodeus...I mean really, you did see the picture right?
sciborg2 06-04-07, 02:50 AM	The ancient Baatorian is now abandonned like a myth (a good idea), and very powerful loths too (it was in planescape; a good idea too). uh, I said 'leth, as in gehreleth (sp? whatever...) aka demodand. :) Seriously, the 'leths are the original fiends AND original celestials if you play selective fact checking... FC 1 and FC 2 both contradict each other (and themselves, and the Demonicon in Dragon) for a reason, to let the DM decide what version of these stories he will proclaim the truth. Everything else is a semantics argument that ultimately won't matter because no one is going to rewrite their home campaign to conform to someone else's idea of canon. :banghead: For me, there was the Primordial Age that ended in a massive alignment war. Survivors or at least the eldest beings of the current Great Wheel are the obyriths, ancient Baatorians and baernoloths on the side of Evil and the priminals (from the Dreaming Upper Planes site) on the side of Good. The other ancient races are all dead/gone. Apomps is a sole survivor of his race and makes the leths. The baern make the loths, and the obyriths make the tanar'ri, and the priminals make the guardinals. It seems a decent speculation that Evil was almost victorious given its far greater survival rate. The slaad just come into being, the exemplars of Law (modrons/inevitables/parai/Vaati) are creations of rival factions lost to the Primordial Age and now compete as described by one poster on DiceFreaks (wish I had a link). The eladrin are made by those whose language included the Last Word found by Orcus in Pelion and the archons are the last effort of the Lawful Good race that is also vanished, perhaps retreated to Chronias. The rilmani are a mystery, as are the LeShay who may preceed this age or merely survived a single current in the River of Time rather than the entire recreation of the Temporal Prime. There are deeper mysteries such as what happened to the Maelvi of Acheron and when did the lillendi come into being, what is this curious relationship between the rakshahas of Acheron and the Vedic pantheon.... Whew....isn't that so much more interesting than scurrying for page numbers to defend the history of a fictional universe?
pratputajao 06-04-07, 02:55 AM	He can alter the forms of others archdukes, though he might not be able to slay them outright". Thus Asmo is more powerful that Demo. He's like a greater god in hell. Huh? It says no where that Asmo gets the power of any god in his plane. I'd like to test that asertion against a lesser god of my choosing or any lesser god for that matter..hehe.. Yes, he has some neat abilities to affect his plane and those he is superior to (devils only) that are godlike, but it ends there. According to the books Asmo is no more powerful (his stats) in hell than he is in the abyss. This is according to the " new mythology of WOTC" Originally he was MUCH more powerful on his plane - Double HP, Has the power of a greater god etc... But thats all gone now. Nope he's just a super monster given his stats. It may say "he can work any nearely any magic within that relm" But there is no stats, or spell list for this. It sounds like another "Asmo is one of the most powerful beings in the Universe" statment to me- Nothing to back it up. I mean it says "nearly" so what cant he do, what can he do? All there is is a vague referance. But if true Yes, he is more poweful in hell. But only in hell. This is part of why I dont use these lame stats. They changed Arch Devils and Demon lords SO THAT THEY COULD BE SLAIN BY PCs it says so in the book. Nonsense! Not in any game I run thats for sure. Oh and to the Battle itself. I am still not convinced that Asmo would even have this all powerful Anti magic field. In the Book he doesnt have it listed as haveing been memorized and the rod only lets him REGAIN spells he may have exhousted, it doesnt allow him a whole new list! If it did why even list his spells at all? I mean if he can change his spell on the fly there would be no need to write which ones he has prepared as his rod allows him to change that at will effectively allowing him to have ALL spells memorized. Uh, no. It still takes hours of studying to change spells memorized, esp. 8th level ones. The Rod does not let him do that. Oh and how does he fly Natuarly within said field? He doesnt have wings. How else would he fly except by actual physical effort if it is NOT supernatural? Just becouse it is listed in his movement doesnt mean it isnt Su. It is like a constant effect fly spell. Now again if he were a true Diety none of this would matter....but he isnt (according to the BOVD or FC II) so it does. Jeesh lets just leave it at a draw, advise everyone make up REASONABLE stats for beings who are Millions of years old, that the gods fear and respect and are the ultimate representaions of their alighnment in power?
sebastienurbanek 06-04-07, 12:19 PM	In a battle with Asmo/demo don't forget the regeneration of asmo: i don't think that demo'll battle with an epic good weapon in tentacles...the only method to kill a devil is to be good in heart like a zealot paladin...thus asmo vs demo: asmo wins!
pratputajao 06-04-07, 01:36 PM	In a battle with Asmo/demo don't forget the regeneration of asmo: i don't think that demo'll battle with an epic good weapon in tentacles...the only method to kill a devil is to be good in heart like a zealot paladin...thus asmo vs demo: asmo wins! The first undisputable power that DG may not be able to overcome... I had forgotten about this to be honest. Well It means DG cant kill him, doesnt mean that Asmo will kill him Either... If they cannot leave until one is dead and it comes down to his Regeneration keeping him in it It may take a loooooooooong time before DG will let him up to do any damage, but eventually (millenia?) he must lose. If they are not confined I would suspect that DG would just leave after Asmo is down to minus hps and call it a win. But yes indeed this throws a wrench into our resident monkey lizards plans. Like I said, Dont use those stats, but if some reasons godforbid you do dont have DG fight Asmo until one is dead, the game will outlive you (DG will still lose though)
Bob the Efreet 06-04-07, 08:32 PM	In a battle with Asmo/demo don't forget the regeneration of asmo That just means that Demogorgon needs to maul Asmodeus into unconsciousness with his tentacles and then go drown him in Juiblex :D
sebastienurbanek 06-05-07, 12:35 AM	Hi folks! Another big advantage for asmo: his levels of cleric class. Don't forget that powers from characters class are superiors that the monsters ablities. Asmo can gating aid (gate orcus? gate graz'zt? Obox-ob? because the demon princes want to kill demo :P You can imagine a pact between asmo and them...), healing himself, boosting stats, combat capabilities... But never mind, each has his point of view for the question...
pratputajao 06-05-07, 03:40 AM	Hi folks! Another big advantage for asmo: his levels of cleric class. Don't forget that powers from characters class are superiors that the monsters ablities. Asmo can gating aid (gate orcus? gate graz'zt? Obox-ob? because the demon princes want to kill demo :P You can imagine a pact between asmo and them...), healing himself, boosting stats, combat capabilities... But never mind, each has his point of view for the question... Hmmm, somehow I think they would probably team up with DG to Kill asmo first and then go after a weakened DG... Eitherway, How is Asmo summining these guys again? I dont think he can do that. Fraz'urb'lu yes, Asmodeus no.
Kain Darkwind 06-05-07, 08:43 AM	Hmmm, somehow I think they would probably team up with DG to Kill asmo first and then go after a weakened DG... Eitherway, How is Asmo summining these guys again? I dont think he can do that. Fraz'urb'lu yes, Asmodeus no. If you'd read, the poster suggested that gate would be used to bring them there. Cast via Asmodeus' 20th level cleric spells. However, I'm not at all certain that he can do so....wouldn't using gate to call Orcus be a chaotic spell, and thus unavailable to the LE Asmodeus? However, he could call a 40 HD pit fiend if he wanted to with gate. Which could probably beat the BoVD Demogorgon. I'm tired of hearing that summoned Devils would turn on Asmodeus. That isn't in the mechanics of diabolical summoning, and we're comparing stats here, not flavor, per the OP's post.
Micheal_Roele 06-05-07, 09:24 AM	Personally, I think the fight would never, ever happen. Asmodeus would win in the Nine Hells, Demogorgon in the Abyss. Neither would go to the other's plane to fight. It could only occur on one of the in-between planes. Demogorgon wouldn't leave the Abyss, because he wouldn't turn his back for a second on Orcus and Grazz't. Asmodeus has a similar issue that Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, and Levistus wouldn't behave either. Even if they just sent an aspect to Hades, what would be the point? Its not like the victor would win anything, and the loser wouldn't be truly killed. That can only happen on their home plane.... If you are just going off of stats, it could go either way. Both could summon fiends, have extraordinary abilites. It all comes down to who has the luckier dice rolls....:)
pratputajao 06-05-07, 11:33 AM	If you'd read, the poster suggested that gate would be used to bring them there. Cast via Asmodeus' 20th level cleric spells. However, I'm not at all certain that he can do so....wouldn't using gate to call Orcus be a chaotic spell, and thus unavailable to the LE Asmodeus? However, he could call a 40 HD pit fiend if he wanted to with gate. Which could probably beat the BoVD Demogorgon. I'm tired of hearing that summoned Devils would turn on Asmodeus. That isn't in the mechanics of diabolical summoning, and we're comparing stats here, not flavor, per the OP's post. Well certaintly I know he can cast gate But why the hell would Orcus or any other demon lord come when Asmodeus is calling? I meant that Asmo Cant make them come as can Fraz' urb' lu. I missed the part of a devil turning on Asmodieus? The original question I asked was if the DEMON PRINCES ( Orcus, Grazz't, Obox-Ob) he mentioned would not just kill Asmo first and then take out a weaked DG I didnt say anything about devils. Yeah a 40 HD balor....Thats why the Demon lords (even BOVD) as they are written are lame. In 2 editions of the game they were gods, they continue to be in our group. No balor is going to beat the Prince of Demons ( no matter who it is)
Kain Darkwind 06-05-07, 11:44 AM	Well certaintly I know he can cast gate But why the hell would Orcus or any other demon lord come when Asmodeus is calling? I meant that Asmo Cant make them come as can Fraz' urb' lu. Well, deities and 'unique creatures' are under no compulsion to go through the gate, nor can the caller control them under any circumstances. So I don't think gate would work here. Aside from the fact that as a LE cleric, Asmodeus can't cast Chaotic spells. I missed the part of a devil turning on Asmodieus? The original question I asked was if the DEMON PRINCES ( Orcus, Grazz't, Obox-Ob) he mentioned would not just kill Asmo first and then take out a weaked DG I didnt say anything about devils. No, but someone else did after I pointed out that Asmodeus can summon, at will, 2 Lords of the Nine at a time. I didn't actually direct that part at you. Yeah a 40 HD balor....Thats why the Demon lords (even BOVD) as they are written are lame. In 2 editions of the game they were gods, they continue to be in our group. No balor is going to beat the Prince of Demons ( no matter who it is) My personal Demogorgon is 70HD. Minor demon lords (below even say, Yeenoghu or Juiblex) are 30+ HD. I make them cosmic entities rather than gods, but I agree their power level shouldn't make them accidents (or XP) waiting to happen.
sebastienurbanek 06-05-07, 11:46 AM	To prat... i'm agree with you with the lame stats of archfiends in D&D 3. I prefer the stats from first ed of AD&D: demo= 200 hp/ balor 8+8 HD and in their home plane they were "lesser gods with x2 Hp, spell-like abilities.... In 3,5 I think that thralls fiends (balors or pit fiends ) are too powerful, it's a lame idea.
pratputajao 06-05-07, 01:41 PM	Well, deities and 'unique creatures' are under no compulsion to go through the gate, nor can the caller control them under any circumstances. So I don't think gate would work here. Aside from the fact that as a LE cleric, Asmodeus can't cast Chaotic spells. I didnt even remember he cant cast it. But if he could I dont think he would try and bring another Demon lord into it No, but someone else did after I pointed out that Asmodeus can summon, at will, 2 Lords of the Nine at a time. I didn't actually direct that part at you.. Ah my fualt didnt see that. Yeah I had already said as long as Asmo can bring in lords of the 9 DG cannot win. A balor or two cant take out two Arch devils. My personal Demogorgon is 70HD. Minor demon lords (below even say, Yeenoghu or Juiblex) are 30+ HD. I make them cosmic entities rather than gods, but I agree their power level shouldn't make them accidents (or XP) waiting to happen. Yeah I have seen, he is quite impressive, 2nd only to the official Dice freaks DG in power. Either one commands respect and should be the official version but what ya gunna' do? I really love all the stuff you guys do over there keep up the great work!
Witch 06-05-07, 01:44 PM	Yeah I have seen, he is quite impressive, 2nd only to the official Dice freaks DG in power. There are no official DF Demorgorgon stats yet, actually ;)
TheOinodaemon 06-05-07, 01:47 PM	BoVD Demogorgon vs. BoVD Asmodeus. I dislike Demons personally, so my opinion is Biased, but If they were pit against each other but allowed to use all their abilities except to flee the arena of combat (which means they are allowed to summon, just not teleport out) Who honestly would win in your opinions? Me.
pratputajao 06-05-07, 01:56 PM	To prat... i'm agree with you with the lame stats of archfiends in D&D 3. I prefer the stats from first ed of AD&D: demo= 200 hp/ balor 8+8 HD and in their home plane they were "lesser gods with x2 Hp, spell-like abilities.... In 3,5 I think that thralls fiends (balors or pit fiends ) are too powerful, it's a lame idea. Actually they were Lesser gods reguardless of where they were however on their home plane they had double hp and a few other abilities above and beyond what the Lesser god powers. I think if they possed an artifact in there home plane they were considered Greater gods? So Asmo and Orcus would have Greater god powers on their home plane. perhaps someone can confirm or dispell this but I am pretty sure I am right. In throne of Bloodstone(level 25-100) I could have sworn orcus has Greater god powers? Yeah the whole balance of power make no sense in any way. I mean it literally cant be the way they have them in any of the WOTC books; there would be no Demon lords/Arch devils left (even though from what I have heard they made Arch devils more powerful than Demon lords in FC2) given the powers of advanced Pit fiend/Balor, Greater, Intermediate, lesser and Demigods on their planes, 30 level charecters and Dragons about.... Silly, the whole new power structure is just plain silly.
pratputajao 06-05-07, 02:00 PM	There are no official DF Demorgorgon stats yet, actually ;) This is true... I have been waiting a long time to see what the final official version looks like. (when, when!? :D ) The unofficial one is insanely powerful, truely the force of chaotic evil
Issabella 06-05-07, 03:53 PM	hehe many are patiently, or in some cases *whistle innocently* not so patiently awaiting the Horrors of the Abyss from Dicefreaks, and well for DF to be back up in general :P
Orodruin 06-05-07, 07:34 PM	Actually they were Lesser gods reguardless of where they were however on their home plane they had double hp and a few other abilities above and beyond what the Lesser god powers. I think if they possed an artifact in there home plane they were considered Greater gods? So Asmo and Orcus would have Greater god powers on their home plane. perhaps someone can confirm or dispell this but I am pretty sure I am right. In throne of Bloodstone(level 25-100) I could have sworn orcus has Greater god powers? Nope. They were lesser gods when they were in their home planes. Fankly, I don't know where everyone gets this idea that 1st ed archfiends were these ultra-mega-death-dealing monsters. Demogorgon, (arguably the most powerful of the lot and worth the most X.P.) had 200 hp and 3 attacks/round 2 tentacles for 1-6 (+rot) and a tail (no damage, but energy drain.) Asmodeus (worth the second most X.P.) had 199 hp and a single attack for 4-14 points of damage. The Manual of the Planes bumped them up somewhat by granting them the abilities of lesser powers on their home plain (which accounts for the double hit points every deity got on his native plain) but even then they were far from the army-chomping monstrosities that could only be taken-down by a battalion of 50+ level characters like some people seem to make them out to be. Asmodeus and Orcus were never considered greater powers in 1st ed, and most deities of lesser and greater rank were considered more powerful than either.
sciborg2 06-05-07, 07:42 PM	Demogorgon was a lesser god in 2e's Monster Mythology. Also 1e has a scaling problem with later editions. Odin had like only 300 hp or something. As for where the idea comes from, I suspect its been around for some time. Planescape gave the exemplar lords at least the power of gods as they controlled the layers gods resided on....or at least Colin McComb (sp?) did in his Lords of Nine article. The power levels of exemplar lords wildly fluctuates depending on who's doing the write up.
Orodruin 06-05-07, 08:20 PM	Demogorgon was a lesser god in 2e's Monster Mythology. Also 1e has a scaling problem with later editions. Odin had like only 300 hp or something. As for where the idea comes from, I suspect its been around for some time. Planescape gave the exemplar lords at least the power of gods as they controlled the layers gods resided on....or at least Colin McComb (sp?) did in his Lords of Nine article. The power levels of exemplar lords wildly fluctuates depending on who's doing the write up. But that's 2nd ed, where most of the "beings formerly known as demon lords" were retconned (of sorts) into plain vanilla deities (and were thus for the most part unstatted except for their avatars) There were exceptions, of course. Like you said, it depended on who did the write up. Graz'zt, Moloch and Geryon were saddled with their 1st ed monster stats while Asmodeus for some reason became teh uberest, evilest, most cosmic dude in all creation - as written in "Guide to Hell". 1st ed was clearer and more consistent. Even the gods were nowhere near as powerful as they are in 3rd ed relative to the player characters. (remember, 1st ed Unearthed Arcana gave us characters like the Barbarian and the Cavalier - who increased all his physical stats every levelhe gained.) Post "Manual of the Plains", only the greater gods would have been considered insurmountable - when encountered in their home plains. Oh, and Odin had 400 hp. That was standard for all "top dog" gods, ie Zeus, Odin, Raven, Dagda et al. ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-05-07, 08:37 PM	But that's 2nd ed, where most of the "beings formerly known as demon lords" were retconned (of sorts) into plain vanilla deities (and were thus for the most part unstatted except for their avatars) They were still archfiends. Some of them just had deific status on top of and alongside that status. 1st ed was clearer and more consistent. http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Infin-XD.gif
Orodruin 06-05-07, 08:52 PM	http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Infin-XD.gif Well, when referring to just what the archfiends were, and what they were capable of - Yes, 1st ed WAS more consistent...:P
pratputajao 06-05-07, 09:31 PM	Nope. They were lesser gods when they were in their home planes. Fankly, I don't know where everyone gets this idea that 1st ed archfiends were these ultra-mega-death-dealing monsters. Demogorgon, (arguably the most powerful of the lot and worth the most X.P.) had 200 hp and 3 attacks/round 2 tentacles for 1-6 (+rot) and a tail (no damage, but energy drain.) Asmodeus (worth the second most X.P.) had 199 hp and a single attack for 4-14 points of damage. The Manual of the Planes bumped them up somewhat by granting them the abilities of lesser powers on their home plain (which accounts for the double hit points every deity got on his native plain) but even then they were far from the army-chomping monstrosities that could only be taken-down by a battalion of 50+ level characters like some people seem to make them out to be. Asmodeus and Orcus were never considered greater powers in 1st ed, and most deities of lesser and greater rank were considered more powerful than either. This is wong. According to Deties and demigods Arch fiends were all lesser gods from the start. This may have changed in Manuel of the planes but most encounters would be on their home plane anyway so no big deal. Demogorgon was equel to or better in many abilities to many greater gods ( probably majority actually). Odin, for example= DG had better ac=-8 to -6, Better MR- 95% to 85%, More attacks a round- 3/1 to 3/2, Better Psionics- 2 effects a round. and many more special abilities including a long list of spellike powers. Odin beats him in HPs- 400 to 200 ( though 400 on his home plane) and added charecter levels. Also, DG had a really nasty ability should he focus both gazes on a group of opponents- Automatic charm to every one under 16th level NO SAVE. A group of 1-3 level cretures or charecters would be charmed, up to 300 of them ( maybe 100, a lot either way) and tapered down from there to 1 or 2 at level 15. His tenticles took 1/4 of his opponents HPs from Rot and his tail would drain 1-4 levels. Again no save for either. If you managed to defeat him you would get almost 1,000,000 exps (740,000). He was powerful opponent to anything that faced him. No, I am not saying DG could beat Odin, but in terms of power they looked much closer to being equel than one might think Orcus was absolutely considered a Greater god as long as he had his Scepter/Rod. Any arch fiend with a soul storing artifact ( which was any artifact as far as I could tell) was treated as a Greater god on his plane and given the appropriate powers. I assume it was the same for Asmodieus given his ruby rod. Its described in the Manuel of the planes and in Throne of Bloodstone (if you can find it) As sciborg2, wrote DG and a few other demon lords *just* became Gods in 2 Ed. Which basically ment he was unbeatable by any charecter...perhaps even your army of 50th level charecters. Gods were without Stats, if you met one as an enemy you died plain and simple. You could only defeat the avatar never the God himself. Given the power levels of Dieties in 3. ed Arch Fiends have been knocked down considerably ( rediculessly in FC 1). Even if they only had devine power on their home plane ( as FC 1 stated that most encounters would be) They would be much closer to how they were originally and the whole balance of power in the planes would then make some sense
sciborg2 06-05-07, 09:41 PM	It's funny that Ma Yuan, the god killer, may likely be the most dangerous thing in the Multiverse now as the cosmology stands. Good thing he's trapped in a well.
sciborg2 06-06-07, 12:25 AM	Hahahah Cheeto hahaha...gods, that might be the greatest contribution to D&D since the Head o' Vecna... newcomers, i'm refering to this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12588867&postcount=105
PunkRockBard 06-06-07, 12:36 AM	Me. i am in total agreement! Though my hopes for a FC III are dwindling..i'd love to see more info on outsiders outside of demons and devils...much as i like both groups.
aushlo 06-06-07, 12:49 AM	Hahahah Cheeto hahaha...gods, that might be the greatest contribution to D&D since the Head o' Vecna... newcomes, i'm refering to this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12588867&postcount=105 Shucks.
Babzidu 06-06-07, 02:06 PM	I thought about it. It's true, Asmodeus does win. A Tale of Woe: Okay, here goes. Asmodeus gets the initiative. Activates the Rod, which for some reason Demogorgon has failed to read up on or something, only having rolled a 1 each on Kno: Planes, Kno: Arcana and Kno: Spellcraft. Plus, he's stupid and knows nothing about creating magic tems or artifacts, because I guess I swapped out his Item Mastery for something awesome like Toughness or Skill Focus: Craft: Crochet. Asmodeus(Muffled, from inside the antimagic force bubble): MWAHAHA! MU HA! HA. MMM. Whooo. MWWA HAAAAA! Casts spells for like thirteen days straight, getting a 20 on every roll to not suffocate inside the Wall of Force. He can't move, summon, or cast spells/effects outside the bubble, nor can Demogorgon teleport in. Demogorgon walks right into the field of antimagic, not knowing, because he is thinking about bananas or flinging poo or something, that something just happened. Because he hasn't bothered to use any skills, let alone Detect Magic, because of the bananas. Also, there was a Cheeto dropped on the floor, which was like totally sweet, but which his heads have totally, like, been fighting over. Aameul: DIBS! Hethradiah: NUH UH! Aameul: Uh, YEAH. Hethradiah: Uh, NO WAY! (this sort of thing continues for a good ten minutes. The Cheeto, a clever trap by Asmodeus because it's totally, like Dis, who's been waiting in polymorphed Cheeto form for, like, 500 years, because Asmodeus TOTALLY knew how everything would go down because he always rolls 20's on everything, like, ever, and because The Devil (But Not Really) is Wicked Sweet. Finally: ) Hethradiah: Your mom! Both: Huh huh huh. YOUR MOM! Huh. Demogorgon plays air guitar for a while Aameul doing the squeely bits while Hethradiah does the chuggy ones, forgetting all about Asmodeus because they're totally rocking AC/DC or something (which is, I know, ironic). Asmodeus, meanwhile, has totally figured out how to beat up Demogorgon. He readies his nefarious plan, double checks his plan, writes it down for next time, calls his next of kin just in case, asks the DM via a number of Divinations from when he dropped the bubble for a few hours and had a cigarette (because he's evil and it looks cool) if his plan is likely to work, then they high five, because the DM and Asmo are tight like that. Demogorgon has been watching cartoons or clumsily attempting to play Dance Dance Revolution, which he used his Item Mastery to make, along with a simple lever or pointed stick or something. The shield drops. Asmodeus gets the initiative, which either he kept or just rerolled. Flies into the air, straight up, just out of reach but within Gaze range. He is jacked up on nicotine and about a million spells. Also a Starbucks Mocha, which is DELICIOUS. Devilishly so, one might say. (Ba-da! Ching!) Asmodeus: DIE, 'PRINCE' OF THE ABYSS. Demogorgon fails a Will save vs. Chill Gaze, because he can't roll a 5 or whatever, and of course totally meets Asmodeus’ gaze because he’s a little special. Proceeds to pee himself. Which is a free action, unlike a #2. Well, maybe for some people. Not me, okay? His rolls are mostly now at-5. Aameul: (whimper) Scared now. Give cookie instead? Hethradiah: (Whine. Looks at Aameul.) Him have cookie? Is scary cookie? No wanna cookie. Asmodeus: KNEEL BEFORE ME, VERMIN. MWA-HA. Asmodeus has decided to go with something more traditional, blasting the crap out of Demogorgon with the Rod as he’s out of reach and Ao himself couldn’t right now touch him. One of the damage dice is a 5, not a 6. He’s now cranky. Regardless, Demogorgon takes a ton of damage because he has both failed his save and the DM has ruled that SR is not applicable, for some reason that escapes me. Demogorgon: OWIE OWIE OW! QUIT IT! (begins to cry uncontrollably. Huge snot bubbles, mascara running, occasional snorting shudders, e.t.c.) Zuggtmoy, his date to the Abyssal Prom, chooses this moment to show up. Seeing him in such a wretched state, throws out the corsage that he made her get him because he’s an idiot and doesn’t know the girl gets the corsage. Calls Juiblex as back-up. He’s a huge jerk, and has terrible acne, but at least he’s on the swim team. Demogorgon runs around being blasted, completely forgetting his powers of Fly and Greater Teleport. He has approximately two hit points left before Asmodeus breaks a sweat. Finally, Asmodeus lands to do battle. Demogorgon has actually been running around because he likes running arund screaming, as the Fear effect wore off ages ago. He finally makes a full attack, twice. Rolls a 1. Kneels, blubbering. Asmodeus Coup De Graces him. Urinates on his corpse, writes a best seller called Demogorgon is a Big Two-Headed Monkey Face and I Beat his Mangy Butt, makes millions with a movie deal and sequels wherein he’s cast as himself (in the third film, Christopher Walken plays Satan, who is like a lame rip-off of Asmodeus, and Asmodeus totally like kicks his butt and uses the Rod to enslave him into flipping burgers for eternity.) He records a platinum-selling Hip-Hop record guest starring Snoop Dogg, Sting, Amy Lee, Ozzy Osbourne, Freddy Mercury, Mike Patton, Bjork and Mozart, who he’s raised from the dead to rock, entitled Hip Hop Inferno. MOO HOO HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Aaaaand still never wins the Blood War or defeats the Heavens. Under no circumstances does Demogorgon do the following: -Gain the Initiative. -Improved Disarm Asmodeus and use the Rod against him. -Withdraw briefly if stymied. -Teleport in close so neither the bubble nor the Wall of Force is an issue so much anymore, if he gains the initiative. -Act remotely intelligent or know what he’s getting into. -Leave the antimagic zone or notice it’s there. For some strange reason, regardless of his brilliance. Cheeto anyone? Dis: Heh. That, sir is f#@$in hilarious. You get a cookie. :cookie: :rofl:
setekh 06-10-07, 06:09 PM	In a straight fight Asmodeus is an obvious win. But then what self respecting Prince of demons is gonna go to war without twenty eight smeggin billion Demons at his beck and call? And what self resepcting Lord of Hell is gonna go to war without five smeggin billion Devils? Point being, this little fight is called the blood war and has been going on for some time with no one taking any real advantage so...
Yeliv 06-17-07, 03:43 AM	Interesting article, if old. I agree with the general consensus on one basis. According to BoVD and FCII, Asmodaeus was able to take on ALL 8 other Devil Princes, and win. Alone. Demogorgon, while a really cool dude, IMHO, is constantly contested for the throne by every other big-wig demon in the Abyss, Graz'zt and Orcus, namely. So, Asmodaeus can easily wreck Demo and just about any other demon boss, not all at once, but one at a time? Yeah...I think he could. Heck, BoVD Asmodaeus could almost, not by a small margin, but by a longshot, kill several weaker gods in the D&D Pantheon, if they weren't immortal..haha.
Bob the Efreet 06-17-07, 04:29 PM	Interesting article, if old. I agree with the general consensus on one basis. According to BoVD and FCII, Asmodaeus was able to take on ALL 8 other Devil Princes, and win. Alone. Demogorgon, while a really cool dude, IMHO, is constantly contested for the throne by every other big-wig demon in the Abyss, Graz'zt and Orcus, namely. Doesn't follow. Demogorgon has never been defeated or dethroned by another archfiend, so logically he has a similar standing to Asmodeus.
Sarig the Genie 06-17-07, 05:49 PM	If they fought on a lawfull plane, Asmo would win, if on a chaotic plane, Demog would win. If they fought in the Waste, the 'loths would win anyway.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-17-07, 09:32 PM	Interesting article, if old. I agree with the general consensus on one basis. According to BoVD and FCII, Asmodaeus was able to take on ALL 8 other Devil Princes, and win. Alone. He wasn't physically fighting them however. His victory was a political one, created out of controlling their subordinates out from under them and playing the first eight Lords of the 9 like puppets. At no point did Asmodeus fight Zariel, Dispater, Mammon, Geryon, Belial, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles, and Moloch in a diabolic version of wrestlemania. So if we're talking Asmodeus versus Demogorgon, we can't really use Asmo's subjugation of the Lords of the 9 as a measuring stick for a very different sort of conflict.
sciborg2 06-17-07, 11:40 PM	In the end, the current stats give Asmo the upper hand...though not as large as some seem to think. Whether such stats are acceptable is another matter entirely.
aushlo 06-17-07, 11:44 PM	I do so enjoy that no one has yet pointed out this particular weakness in the Asmodeus hold the throne vs. the Lords= Asmodeus is Godly argument. Demogorgon apparently never has to defend his own title. Erm. NOT. Granted, with Orcus and Graz'zt out of the way for a while he probably got a nice break (in which he likely utterly annihilated a few more trivial rivals). Still, he's been Prince of Demons for a very long time. Orcus, even with the Word, never tried to off him. What does that say about him?
aushlo 06-17-07, 11:52 PM	I also find the logic that Asmodeus comes up with a master plan to beat Demogorgon courtesy of the Impervious Bubble Boy Maneuver ludicrous. The plan hinges on his possession of the Rod throughout a long battle with a guy who can disarm it twice a round, or disappearing into the bubble not long at all into the fight. While he's in the bubble, he's not winning. He's rememorizing a spell list which still won't do jack when the bubble's gone. He's surviving, plotting perhaps. Nothing more. If Demogorgon Disarms, does it count as an attack on Asmodeus? If not, the Rod has no effect. So we get a retarded version of Evil Power Keepaway instead of Wrestlemania, which while equally silly makes Asmodeus look slightly less like a big sissy running away from the schoolyard bully.