Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunamin 03-23-07, 06:56 AM	Now, the Planes are (at least) infinite in size and infinitely varied, so demographics of a planar metropolis would of course depend completely on where the metropolis are and what district you’re in, but still, the question remained in my mind: What would a generic crowd in a generic planar metropolis look like, if broken down into greater detail? I’m trying to rate some of the more well-known planar races in order of how frequent I’d expect to see them in this crowd. Naturally, Sigil comes to mind as a case-study, so imagine a generic plaza in the City of Doors as the current scenario. I’m avoiding handling the common Material plane races altogether – it seems to vary greatly how common people feel they should appear in planar settings. Personally, I decrease their presence significantly compared to the Planar Handbook’s demographics of Sigil, for instance, to give it even more of an otherworldly feel, when my players visit it. I’m looking for your help in this task, and would appreciate any feedback on the frequency of appearance as well as on the rationales I’ve given for my current distribution. Planar races on the streets of a planar metropolis - In order of frequency Planetouched Planetouched beings would probably be the dominating planar race in the presented scenario. There’s no rules as to if descendants of planetouched are born as such and if so, for how many generations of increased “thinning of blood” this persists, but even if they are single-generation occurrences, they should still fill quite a lot in a planar metropolis (personally I believe it makes more sense mechanically to make all planetouched templates, but that’s not the main concern for this thread). I’d expect the demographics of those with blood from the exemplars and other aligned planar beings to generally have Chaos better represented than Law, and Evil better represented than Good. There are several reasons behind the former case. Chaotic beings are naturally more inclined towards experimentation (sexual as well as magical), whereas Lawful counterparts probably dabble little in the same areas – zenythri and other Lawfully planetouched are probably almost exclusively caused by deliberate magical manipulation or mystical planar influence, rather than being descendants from a Lawful planar and mortal. Also, purity seems like a fairly Lawful concept. However, while the Chaos-touched may be more numerous among the Planes as a whole, they are generally less frequent in cities where rules are more likely to be imposed upon them. Sigil is a special case, however, where it seems like this is a minor factor (there’s always a district suited for each alignment). The reasoning behind the latter is more simple – fiendish rape and unwilling magical or planar influence of the Lower Planes is probably more common than true Celestial love towards a mortal. However, the discrepancy in demographics between the descendants of the aligned planars is probably not too big by virtue of influence of agents of Balance. I’d imagine certain special Rilmani groups being tasked with disrupting such blood-twisting magic rituals, using subtle magic to influence the pregnancy of one bearing a child touched by the Planes, or perhaps even selectively sabotaging certain notable romantic relations. I’d expect aligned planetouched to generally outnumber genasi – beings touched by belief just seems more in place in a planar metropolis, than those touched by the elements. I’d imagine the patience of the earth-blooded to make them the slightly most frequently found genasi in this scenario. The hostility and temper of the fire-blooded put them at the other end, with the arrogance of the air-blooded slightly ahead of fire. I haven’t looked too closely at the mephlings, but I’d expect them to mirror the genasi that their element seems closest to. I’m unsure about the relative frequency of those touched by the transitives. I would think the ethereally touched would dominate over those touched by shadow, and I suppose they would be more common than the Lawfully touched (duo to the Lawful concept of purity). In conclusion, in a generic planar metropolis I’d imagine the representation to be in this order: CE > CN > NE > CG > NG > Earth > Water > Air > Fire > Ethereal > Shadow > LE > LG > N > LN. Sources: MM, MM2, Planar Handbook, Fiend Folio, Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Bariaur Carefree, optimistic and always looking for a challenge - Ysgardian mentality fosters adventurous nature, which easily gets along with people. Sources: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf), Planar Handbook. Khaasta As natives of the Outlands, always looking for wealth and prestige, powerfully a notch above the more mundane planar races, and willing to take chances yet accepting of some structure, Khaasta seem made for Sigil life. Their reputation works against them, however, which should offset somewhat how frequent they appear in public. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Nathri As scavengers and survivalists used to the emptiness of the Ethereal, wandering nathri would probably be drawn towards the abundance of goods found in Sigil. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Shad High tolerance and generally neutral outlook makes them easy to get along with. However, their history presents them as relatively new to the planes, and initially distrustful. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Githzerai: Despite being introverted and wary of strangers, ‘zerais still make up a significant deal of Sigil’s population, many of them being banished from their homes in Limbo. Lesser to middle castes of exemplars and other “true” incarnations of the Outer planes Here I mean those above the most basic levels in their respective castes (in many cases, their kin at the bottom of the powerscale are little more than wild beasts), yet still humble enough that their tasks take them to the streets of Sigil (their high-ups likely only appear in public on extremely rare occasions). Unlike the case for planetouched, I’d expect their distribution to be more balanced due to closer attention by the rilmani. The rilmani themselves are likely the exception – I can’t really recall a kind of rilmani that is likely to be found in such a public scenario, unless on the rarest of occasions. To take a representative of each alignment, I’m thinking something like this: Green slaad: Slaadi are curious by nature, and there are many wonders to behold at a planar gathering. The greens in particular have an advantage, as they can Change Shape to dodge trouble, once they inevitably get into it. Firre (MotP, BoED): Polymorph and Greater Invisibility for anonymity (should it be desired), Detect Thoughts and See Invisibility to notice if their ruse is detected. Lupinal (MM2): They are likely guardinals to leave Elysium and are easily able to dodge trouble through Disguise Self, Fly and Dodge Missiles ability. Falxugon (FC2): A likely devil to find in social settings, looking for victims to lure into doom, however, their teleportation decreases likelihood of actually running into one on the street. Succubus: Focused on deceit and seduction make succubi likely in a crowd, but like the falxugon, their teleporting offsets chances somewhat of actually encountering it on the streets (both fiends are definitely more likely in the crowd of a social event among the upper class, however). Pentadrone (MotP WE (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/modrons.zip)): I figure the highest ranking base modrons are best suited for the occasional off-Mechanus information gathering mission, since hierarchical modrons probably are constantly needed for managing everyone else back at Regulus. Warden archon (BoED): Being able to teleport again off-sets chances of running into members of this exemplar race. Warden archons guard the paths to Mt. Celestia, however, and as Sigil holds an abundance of portals to all of the Multiverse, they can often be found overseeing such a portal, making sure only the right people use it. Gacholoth (En World version (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=747)): ‘Loths are even rarer sights on the street than most exemplars, but it happens that a gacholoth is spotted on the way to its next hit (by those able to see through its magical disguises). For the record, I mostly use Dackad’s versions (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=87594&page=1&pp=30) of ‘loths. Hydramach (Jaerom Darkwind’s version (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2535)): I can’t really recall a rilmani suited for the role, but again I’m not using published versions. Hydramachs are meant for dealing with the Inner planes, but subjects of their interest might very well be in Sigil, which means hydramachs might be found there as well. Their polymorph ability leaves them hidden to most of the public. Githyanki: They like no one, no one likes them, they have their own planar metropolis, and the Astral is such a nicer place for them to be (and magic to hold off time catching up when you leave is probably hard to come by). Even so, they still make up a significant deal of Sigil’s population, many of them being exiles from the githyanki empire. Rakshasa Powerful and civil make rakshasa fit for Sigil life. Their magical power, Change Shape ability and gifted skills in the art of speech make them particularly well suited for trading in darks among the underworld. Genies Most genies are probably there for importing and exporting goods to realms on their home plane. Efreet would probably be an incredibly rare sight, as their needs for interplanar commerce should be well-sated in the City of Bronze. Marids are only seen slightly more frequently, as they generally are rare and also have their own planar metropolis, the City of Glass. Jann would easily be the most frequently encountered genies in Sigil, with djinn and dao about equally present as second and third most likely, respectively (djinn having the upperhand over dao, as their good nature benefits them in the celestial markets). In summary: Jann > Djinn (Air) > Dao (Earth) >> Marid (Water) > Efreeti (Fire). Sources: MM, Manuel of the Planes. Night Hag Powerful and always looking for souls, night hags occasionally leave the Grey Waste for new hunting grounds. Half-breed: Most of my reasoning behind demographics among the planetouched extends to half-breeds. Rogue modron: Being unexpected occurrences from Mechanus means there’ll be few of them in existence, but Sigil is a suitable place for them to learn about their newfound consciousness. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Bladeling: Being xenophobic and built to hurt people that come close puts these Acheron beings at the bottom of the list. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) Mercane: Sigil is the biggest center of interplanar trade, so they should be right at home, but I just don’t see them as being that visible at a Sigil plaza: I figure their inherent Lawfulness would probably draw them to select Tu’narath on the Astral instead, for major interplanar business. Here, they also can Plane Shift out, should the ‘yanki or other clients endanger them beyond what their guards can handle. EDIT: Apparently, mercanes avoid Sigil at all costs, and thus the entry is moved to the bottom of the list (I figure the rare sighting might be one put there by a planar mishap, and now looking for a way out). Source: Manuel of the Planes. So what do you guys think? Am I way off, or does some of this make sense?
Ordbyrht 03-23-07, 09:14 AM	As a model for Sigil or any other "planar hub" this is a very nice breakdown of the population. However, I don't think that there is such a thing as a generic planar city or a generic planar population. The only place that a person is going to find this much diversity is Sigil or Union, simply because these two cities contain a high number of portals to the Prime, Outer, and Inner Planes within their boundaries. Any other planar city, say the City of Brass, Yetsirah on Mount Celestia, or Grenpoli on Baator, is not going to have the high number of portals, let alone the variety of destinations, that Sigil or Union does. Thus, these cities' populations will be heavily influenced by the plane that they are located on. I only noticed one error and I only believe it was made because your planar sources seem to be limited to 3.X, supplemented with Planewalker's PSCS and several individuals' works. Sigil is the biggest center of interplanar trade, so they [Mercanes] should be right at home, but I just don’t see them as being that visible at a Sigil plaza The one place a mercane would never go, let alone set up kip, is Sigil. For unknown reasons, the whole race avoids the Cage at all costs. Here's some fun Sigil population facts from In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil Sigil has a population of over one-million, but at any given moment, two-thirds of that population are transients. The majority of Sigil's core population is made up of humans, githzerai, bariaur, and tieflings.
ripvanwormer 03-23-07, 01:33 PM	The majority of Sigil's core population is made up of humans, githzerai, bariaur, and tieflings. Note that when that book was written, tieflings were the only kind of planetouched that had ever been mentioned, and were defined simply as "part human, and part something else." "Tieflings" in this case should be read as planetouched of all sorts. Genasi are said to be very rare in comparison to tieflings and aasimars. I think of humans as the most common, default planar race, simply because they're found in more environments than most other races. They often breed with others to produce planetouched, but not as commonly as they breed with one another. Many humans found in large planar metropolises will be incredibly exotic-looking, though, belonging to races not seen anywhere else, having spent generations in alien environments and strange climes. Still human statistically, but with attributes like chromatic skin tones, proportions strained from nonstandard gravity, and traditional garb meant to protect themselves from inhospitable atmospheres. I definitely agree that characteristically Prime races like elves, gnomes, and halflings should be deemphasized in a planar campaign. Sigil has sizable githyanki and githzerai communities, many of them likely exiles who fled their respective tyrants and came to the City of Doors to stay and start new lives. They mostly keep to themselves. Githzerai are more common than githyanki, mostly because the githzerai Wizard-King doesn't pursue defectors, while the githyanki Lich-Queen may well hunt down and kill those who she fears might betray her secrets to outsiders. Yugoloths have less reason to go to Sigil than most fiends, since they don't usually interact with mortals directly. Mezzoloths are a bit too stupid to travel the planes on their own (which doesn't mean it never happens); their superiors, such as piscoloths, corruptors of fate, and voor, will likely be more common, and when mezzoloths appear it will be as servants of higher-ranking 'loths. Nycaloths and gacholoths, spies and saboteurs of the Blood War, will have the most reason to visit. Rakshasas, shadow demons, and night hags are mercantile enough to want to go to planar trade cities regularly. As Ordbyrht said, mercanes avoid Sigil like the plague. They're terrified of it, which is why they built their own planar city. Marids are the rarest (and most powerful) of genies, and aren't going to be common anywhere. Even in the City of Glass, the planar metropolis that they essentially rule (as part of a coalition), they're one of the rarest of races. The most common genies will be jann, who will be found on their own or in the employ of one of the elemental genie races. I agree that djinn (the most common and weakest genie after the jann) will be the next most common. The greedy dao will want to go to Sigil to expand their markets; even moreso than night hags and rakshasas, they're in the business of profit, and I'd place them next most common after djinn. A good rilmani caste to use would be the abiorachs (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=438), comparatively low-level and good at working as covert agents. Normally they're sent to the Inner Planes, but with its inner planar portals and creatures, Sigil would be appropriate too. This was the list I made earlier: Most common: Humans, the default planewalking humanoid. Humans often mate with other species, but any single hybrid race is going to be somewhat rare. Planetouched: Aasimar, tiefling, chaond, tuladhara, zenythri/mechanatrix, shyft, shadowswyft, gloaming, phoera, genasi, mephling, feytouched, krinth, etc. Other common races: Githzerai, githyanki, bariaur, khaasta, nathri, shad Rare races: Buommans, elves, dwarves, fensir, gnomes, halflings, illumians, neraphim, orcs, spikers, wildrens, spellscales, mongrelfolk, half-orcs, goblins, kobolds and xill. Very rare races: Bladelings, dromites, duergar, elans, half-giants, thri-kreen, kenku, maenads, mongrelfolk, xephs, changelings, nezumi, korobokuru, spirit folk, vanara, shifters, kalashtar, inspired, warforged, goliaths, aarakocras, raptorans, catfolk, lupins, diaboli, killorens, centaurs, gnolls, dopplegangers, half-ogres, underfolk, sharakim, sea-kin, dragonborn, half-dragons, azurins, dusklings, rilkans, skarns. Animals and pests include things like pigeons, large gray "executioner ravens," rot grub swarms, humanoid immigrants from the Material Plane who have degenerated to an animal state due to the stress of their new environment, two-headed Aoskian hounds, Arcadian ponies, cranium rat swarms, giant rats, moon rats, ash rats, elemental vermin, fhorges, bonespears, rasts, ravids. ethyks, gathras and other livestock, creatures corrupted by magical pollution, lost pets, and more. Of course, there will be animals with the fiendish, celestial, axiomatic, anarchic, vivacious, elemental, and entropic templates. Undead include both creatures of the undead type and other beings who can be easily lumped in with them: wights, ghouls, zombies and skeletons created by the Dustmen faction, vampires and liches living openly or in secret, spectres, ghosts, and wraiths, devourers, visages, atropal scions, entropic reapers, brains in jars, bhuts, allips, hooded pupils, grimweirds, quth-maren, alhoons, cursts, necropolitans, eyes of fear and flame, living creatures who are somehow half-undead, lepers and other living victims of piteous planar diseases, petitioners (lost, refugees, or here on a mission), worms that walk, rot reavers, and ordinary corpses. The authorities of Sigil don't tolerate undead who roam around killing people, but they may tolerate those who behave themselves. The other kind - pure monsters who need to be destroyed - end up in Sigil, too, of course, and cause trouble before someone finally hunts them down. Some may lurk in secret or beneath the city for years or centuries. Celestials include angels, archons, eladrins, lillends, guardinals, moon dogs, couatls, quesar, ki-rin, opinicuses, hollyphants, lammasu, phoenixes, aleaxes, and risen fiends. Fiends include night hags, yugoloths, rakshasas, fallen celestials, baatezu, tanar'ri, demodands, marrashi, imps, retrievers, barghests, kytons, and kythons. Cordants include slaadi, formians, modrons, inevitables, Limbo stalkers, concordant killers, justicators, rilmani, visilights, and maugs. Elementals include elementals, paraelementals, genies, lumi, sylphs, grues, azers, salamanders, xorns, tsnng, and so on. Exotic sentients include things like spellweavers, illithids, beholders, grell, tsochar, psurlons, witchknives, cloakers, nagas, yuan-ti, neogi, neh-thalggu, zodars, skindancers, ethergaunts, shadar-kai, nerras, kaorti, zerns, phasms, nilshai, daelkyr, protean scourges, keepers, and other beings who don't easily fit any other catagory.
Dunamin 03-24-07, 08:23 AM	Thank you both for your reply. I’ll update the list based on some of your feedback. However, I don't think that there is such a thing as a generic planar city or a generic planar population. Oh, I agree. It’s more meant as an exercise (as in “if there was such a thing as a truly generic planar metropolis…”), which just happens to be most applicable to Sigil, but might be even more so in a homebrewed setting. The one place a mercane would never go, let alone set up kip, is Sigil. For unknown reasons, the whole race avoids the Cage at all costs. As Ordbyrht said, mercanes avoid Sigil like the plague. They're terrified of it, which is why they built their own planar city. I was completely unaware of that. Can either of you elaborate on the dark of this? Or perhaps point me to sources? Sigil has a population of over one-million, but at any given moment, two-thirds of that population are transients. You mean creatures on transitive planes? I thought Sigil didn’t coexist with those, just like the Outer Planes in general? The majority of Sigil's core population is made up of humans, githzerai, bariaur, and tieflings. Sigil has sizable githyanki and githzerai communities, many of them likely exiles who fled their respective tyrants and came to the City of Doors to stay and start new lives. They mostly keep to themselves. Githzerai are more common than githyanki, mostly because the githzerai Wizard-King doesn't pursue defectors, while the githyanki Lich-Queen may well hunt down and kill those who she fears might betray her secrets to outsiders. I was unaware githzerai and even githyanki were major species in Sigil. I mean, fugitives in hiding from their respective rulers makes sense, but wouldn’t that somewhat equally apply to other races in Sigil, as well? Deserters from the Blood War? Fallen exemplars? Just about any prime or planar fugitive laying low off-world? I suppose I’ll deviate a bit from canon in my campaign for now – I’ve moved both up on the list, but not to the extent that prime sources seem to indicate they should be at. I just don’t see them as one of the very top races of Sigil, based on the thoughts I provided in their entries on the list. Yugoloths have less reason to go to Sigil than most fiends, since they don't usually interact with mortals directly. Mezzoloths are a bit too stupid to travel the planes on their own (which doesn't mean it never happens); their superiors, such as piscoloths, corruptors of fate, and voor, will likely be more common, and when mezzoloths appear it will be as servants of higher-ranking 'loths. Nycaloths and gacholoths, spies and saboteurs of the Blood War, will have the most reason to visit. Good points. I hadn’t heard about gacholoths before, but after reading up on them I think they sound ideal, and I’ve changed the entry to them for now. I couldn’t find anything on corruptors of fate and voor, though, could you direct me to any sources? I agree that nycaloths are likely to visit Sigil, just like similar exemplars filling the role of elite spies – but because they’re elite spies, I figure you’d rarely seem them in the presented scenario. Rakshasas, shadow demons, and night hags are mercantile enough to want to go to planar trade cities regularly. Thanks for pointing them out, I’ve added rakshasas and night hags to the list. I’m leaving out shadow demons to limit the list to more well-known beings, for now. Marids are the rarest (and most powerful) of genies, and aren't going to be common anywhere. Even in the City of Glass, the planar metropolis that they essentially rule (as part of a coalition), they're one of the rarest of races. The most common genies will be jann, who will be found on their own or in the employ of one of the elemental genie races. I agree that djinn (the most common and weakest genie after the jann) will be the next most common. The greedy dao will want to go to Sigil to expand their markets; even moreso than night hags and rakshasas, they're in the business of profit, and I'd place them next most common after djinn. I completely forgot about jann, and I agree they should be at the top. While I knew marids are the most powerful genies and that their “empire” is very loosely held together, I had no idea they were that rare. Anywhere I can read about this? I’ve put them back in the list, but still ahead of efreet. A good rilmani caste to use would be the abiorachs (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=438), comparatively low-level and good at working as covert agents. Normally they're sent to the Inner Planes, but with its inner planar portals and creatures, Sigil would be appropriate too. Are abiorachs the same as hydramachs? Anyway, I agree that they seem more appropriate, but I actually feel like there is a caste missing here to fill this role. Perhaps I ought to write one up… Planetouched: Aasimar, tiefling, chaond, tuladhara, zenythri/mechanatrix, shyft, shadowswyft, gloaming, phoera, genasi, mephling, feytouched, krinth, etc. I’m unsure about the frequency of those touched by the transitives, in relation to the other planetouched, although if there is such a thing as an Astrally touched, I imagine it would be the rarest of all (life seems unintended on the Astral in the first place, as I believe A Guide to the Astral Plane explains). I would think the ethereally touched (shyfts) should dominate over those touched by shadow (shadowswyfts, gloamings and krinths), and I suppose they would be more common than the Lawfully touched (due to the Lawful concept of purity). What kind of planetouched are the phoera, and why do you have feytouched listed as planetouched, by the way? Thanks again to you both for your input.
ripvanwormer 03-24-07, 10:57 AM	Can either of you elaborate on the dark of this? Or perhaps point me to sources? The source is the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, in the "arcane" entry. It isn't explained. Theories include that the mercanes once tried to take over Sigil and the Lady of Pain banished them, or perhaps they sold the city to the Lady of Pain in the first place and the Lady banished them so she didn't have to pay her debt. You mean creatures on transitive planes? I thought Sigil didn’t coexist with those, just like the Outer Planes in general? Transient (Noun): staying only a short time: the transient guests at a hotel. a person or thing that is transient, esp. a temporary guest, boarder, laborer, or the like. Sigil has as many portals to the transitive planes as any other type of plane, though. I mean, fugitives in hiding from their respective rulers makes sense, but wouldn’t that somewhat equally apply to other races in Sigil, as well? Sure. There are more gith because they're a naturally planar race, able to get to a lot of different planes thanks to the plane shift ability they get at higher levels (which they can use to start families and colonies on other planes), and they're attracted by the existing expatriate communities in the City of Doors. The other groups you mention exist in Sigil too, though. The githyanki community in Sigil is called Git'Riban; it's in the Guildhall Ward. The largest githzerai community is Darkwell Court in the Hive Ward, but githzerai are found in every ward. Of course, the real reason is that githzerai were one of the "base" races in the Planescape Campaign Setting, as fundamental a part of Planescape as elves are of regular D&D. So naturally they have a major presence in the City of Doors. I couldn’t find anything on corruptors of fate and voor, though, could you direct me to any sources? Monster Manual IV. While I knew marids are the most powerful genies and that their “empire” is very loosely held together, I had no idea they were that rare. Anywhere I can read about this? Tales of the Lamp, Vortex of Madness. Are abiorachs the same as hydramachs? Yes. Jaerom renamed them so that they had a prefix that suggested mercury. What kind of planetouched are the phoera They have phoenix blood. They're from the Monster Manual III. They're found in the Upper Planes and the Plane of Fire. and why do you have feytouched listed as planetouched, by the way? Here I'm assuming that Faerie is a plane, or at least a planar realm.
Thanael 03-24-07, 11:00 AM	You mean creatures on transitive planes? I thought Sigil didn’t coexist with those, just like the Outer Planes in general? Transient as in just passing through. I.e. not resident.
Dunamin 03-26-07, 06:35 PM	Transient (Noun): staying only a short time: the transient guests at a hotel. a person or thing that is transient, esp. a temporary guest, boarder, laborer, or the like. Transient as in just passing through. I.e. not resident. My bad, I’m not a native English speaker. Of course, the real reason is that githzerai were one of the "base" races in the Planescape Campaign Setting, as fundamental a part of Planescape as elves are of regular D&D. So naturally they have a major presence in the City of Doors. Ahh, the meta-game reason is the one that made most sense. :) Thanks for the references, Rip, I’ll see if I can get a hold of some of them. Hmm, considering making a general percentage-distribution for the various Sigil Wards and possibly the districts in them, now…
Dunamin 03-30-07, 04:19 AM	I just had a thought. Given the knowledge about lycanthropy and the fact that neither Sigil nor the Outlands have moons, and having the means to travel the planes, characters who suspect they may be afflicted with lycanthropy would probably go there (assuming initial options of curing the affliction have passed). Sure, they can only have it cured while a full moon is present, but in Sigil they can check to have their condition confirmed without fear of changing form because of a full moon. Then, arrangements can be made with a capable caster to planehop to a locale where there currently is a full moon and attempt to cure the affliction. Of course, this service could be equally possible in other planar locales without a moon, but Sigil is a metropolis where those services probably can be found. I actually think I’ll write up a small business in Sigil doing just that for my campaign...
Dunamin 04-02-07, 03:21 PM	Well, I dabbled in the barmy task of putting rough numbers to the demographics of Sigil, based on the thoughts provided in the thread. How’s this: 15 % Humans 15 % Planetouched (25 % Evil, 15 % Chaos, 15 % Good, 9 % Earth, 9 % Water, 8 % Air, 7 % Fire, 4 % Ethereal, 4 % Shadow, 2 % Neutral, 2 % Law) 9 % Bariaur 7.5 % Khaasta 6 % Nathri 5.5 % Shad 4.5 % Githzerai 3.5 % Githyanki 3 % Halflings 2.5 % Dwarves 2.5 % Elves 2.5 % Exemplars, lesser to middle castes 2 % Goblinoids 2 % Orcs 2 % Giants 1 % Genies 1 % Gnomes 0.5 % Rakshasa 15 % Others
ripvanwormer 04-02-07, 03:36 PM	I just had a thought. Given the knowledge about lycanthropy and the fact that neither Sigil nor the Outlands have moons, and having the means to travel the planes, characters who suspect they may be afflicted with lycanthropy would probably go there (assuming initial options of curing the affliction have passed). Officially, they continue to be affected by the moon of their homeworld, regardless of where they go on the planes. Lycanthropes native to the planes would probably have their cycles defined by whatever world their "bloodlines" originated on. For example, a werewolf bitten by a Krynnish werewolf would be affected by the moons of Krynn, as would those it in turn infected, even if they never leave the Outlands. Sigil's undercity is thick with wererats, many of whom serve shadow fiends or cranium rat swarms.
Weenie 04-04-07, 05:46 PM	How’s this: 15 % Humans 15 % Planetouched (25 % Evil, 15 % Chaos, 15 % Good, 9 % Earth, 9 % Water, 8 % Air, 7 % Fire, 4 % Ethereal, 4 % Shadow, 2 % Neutral, 2 % Law) 9 % Bariaur 7.5 % Khaasta 6 % Nathri 5.5 % Shad 4.5 % Githzerai 3.5 % Githyanki 3 % Halflings 2.5 % Dwarves 2.5 % Elves 2.5 % Exemplars, lesser to middle castes 2 % Goblinoids 2 % Orcs 2 % Giants 1 % Genies 1 % Gnomes 0.5 % Rakshasa 15 % Others First of all, no way there are more shads in Sigil than there are githzerai and githyanki. Ditto for the nathris. Second, the rakshasa should go into the "other" category. Otherwise it's OK, though you could also have categories such as construct or undead. Finally, one thing to keep in mind about the "human" race: The term is just an approximation covering all "humanoid" creatures that have no distinguishing abilities or obvious characteristics, and no specific racial identity. A lot of general weirdness could be sneaked in there. Races such as elans, illumians, maenads, or xeph would be treated as humans in a population as mixed as Sigil's.
Dunamin 04-07-07, 07:14 AM	First of all, no way there are more shads in Sigil than there are githzerai and githyanki. Ditto for the nathris. Second, the rakshasa should go into the "other" category. Otherwise it's OK, though you could also have categories such as construct or undead. Allright, made some changes and added a category of "intelligent undead". How about now: 15 % Humans 15 % Planetouched (25 % Evil, 15 % Chaos, 15 % Good, 9 % Earth, 9 % Water, 8 % Air, 7 % Fire, 4 % Ethereal, 4 % Shadow, 2 % Neutral, 2 % Law) 9 % Bariaur 7.5 % Khaasta 6 % Githzerai 5 % Githyanki 4.5 % Nathri 4 % Shad 3 % Halflings 2.5 % Dwarves 2.5 % Elves 2.5 % Exemplars, lesser to middle castes 2 % Goblinoids 2 % Orcs 2 % Giants 1 % Genies 1 % Gnomes 0.5 % Intelligent undead 15 % Others
Mazaron 04-25-07, 10:21 PM	What would a generic crowd in a generic planar metropolis look like, if broken down into greater detail? **First of all good post. Second of all, as another poster said, no such thing as a generic planar city. Close as you could get would be generic for certain areas, such as the Lower or Upper Outer Planes. One of the things I liked about Planescape was all the variety and you never knew what you were going to find in a burg or site, even things you would never expect. I’m avoiding handling the common Material plane races altogether – it seems to vary greatly how common people feel they should appear in planar settings. Personally, I decrease their presence significantly compared to the Planar Handbook’s demographics of Sigil, for instance, to give it even more of an otherworldly feel, when my players visit it. **I respect that but I have disagree. To me it is kind of cool that there are whole races of humans who are born, live, and die on the Outer Planes, who adventure in the lands where people go when the die, deal with fiends and celestials, who can actually visit the lands of the God and see where they might go when the die, that mere mortals DARE to not only adventure but live and work and raise children in the Outer Planes (and the Inner Planes), areas once thought of as virtually unreachable and/or incredibly dangerous. Having said that, I would make a high percentage of any city non-human, whether eladrin or fiend or what have you, depending upon where it was located. Planetouched Planetouched beings would probably be the dominating planar race in the presented scenario. ***Which are often originally mortal and in many cases might simply be human with a few benefits (or penalties). The reasoning behind the latter is more simple – fiendish rape and unwilling magical or planar influence of the Lower Planes is probably more common than true Celestial love towards a mortal. ***Mmm, maybe, but not all Celestials are angels singing from on high. The eladrin of Elysium for instance are much more sociable and not so high and mighty. I’d expect aligned planetouched to generally outnumber genasi – beings touched by belief just seems more in place in a planar metropolis, than those touched by the elements. I’d imagine the patience of the earth-blooded to make them the slightly most frequently found genasi in this scenario. The hostility and temper of the fire-blooded put them at the other end, with the arrogance of the air-blooded slightly ahead of fire. ***I never thought of the genasi as merely touched by the elements, though there is that. Many might be touched by blood going back to the genie races, and in some settings -such as Al-Qadim - that can be quite significant. I also view the Inner Planes as unexplored territory and who knows what is really out there. I haven’t looked too closely at the mephlings, but I’d expect them to mirror the genasi that their element seems closest to. **Ah yes, mephits might have a role too in genasi blood. Bariaur Carefree, optimistic and always looking for a challenge - Ysgardian mentality fosters adventurous nature, which easily gets along with people. Sources: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf), Planar Handbook. **A favorite of the Planescape books and a large part of the flavor of the setting. They would do better in the Planes than on any Prime Material world in the official materials (socially at least). Khaasta As natives of the Outlands, always looking for wealth and prestige, powerfully a notch above the more mundane planar races, and willing to take chances yet accepting of some structure, Khaasta seem made for Sigil life. Their reputation works against them, however, which should offset somewhat how frequent they appear in public. **Good mercenary race for the Outlands, Sigil, and the Lower Outer Planes, not so powerful as fiends and an interesting PC choice too. I loved the original illustration in Planescape much, much more than the 3E one. I used them several times. Nathri As scavengers and survivalists used to the emptiness of the Ethereal, wandering nathri would probably be drawn towards the abundance of goods found in Sigil. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) **I actually don't remember that one. Shad High tolerance and generally neutral outlook makes them easy to get along with. However, their history presents them as relatively new to the planes, and initially distrustful. Source: Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 2 - Races (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter2.pdf) **Well, new to the outer planes maybe. A good choice. Intersting idea of them spreading to the Outer Planes. Githzerai: Despite being introverted and wary of strangers, ‘zerais still make up a significant deal of Sigil’s population, many of them being banished from their homes in Limbo. ***Pretty common in Planescape, they are found in many areas beyond Limbo. Githyanki: They like no one, no one likes them, they have their own planar metropolis, and the Astral is such a nicer place for them to be (and magic to hold off time catching up when you leave is probably hard to come by). Even so, they still make up a significant deal of Sigil’s population, many of them being exiles from the githyanki empire. **They didn't make up much of the population in what I have read of Sigil back in the day but maybe that has changed. They are evil and more xenophobic than their Githzeria cousins. Rakshasa Powerful and civil make rakshasa fit for Sigil life. Their magical power, Change Shape ability and gifted skills in the art of speech make them particularly well suited for trading in darks among the underworld. **You have got to be kidding me. Those are horrible creatures. Well, true, fiends walk around in Sigil, but they are hardly COMMON. To take a representative of each alignment, I’m thinking something like this: Green slaad: Slaadi are curious by nature, and there are many wonders to behold at a planar gathering. The greens in particular have an advantage, as they can Change Shape to dodge trouble, once they inevitably get into it. **Slaad are basically nearly animalistic and almost completely insane. Rogue slaad, why not, but I don't think any race is particularly suited as a whole to any berg anywhere. Succubus: Focused on deceit and seduction make succubi likely in a crowd, but like the falxugon, their teleporting offsets chances somewhat of actually encountering it on the streets (both fiends are definitely more likely in the crowd of a social event among the upper class, however). ***They are probably suprisingly common but still not common in the sense anyone notices them or knows what they are. Ditto with the Erinyes. Genies Most genies are probably there for importing and exporting goods to realms on their home plane. Efreet would probably be an incredibly rare sight, as their needs for interplanar commerce should be well-sated in the City of Bronze. Marids are only seen slightly more frequently, as they generally are rare and also have their own planar metropolis, the City of Glass. Jann would easily be the most frequently encountered genies in Sigil, with djinn and dao about equally present as second and third most likely, respectively (djinn having the upperhand over dao, as their good nature benefits them in the celestial markets). **They mosty are found in the Inner Planes and would be common in cities there, particularly Jann. The Outer Planes, they would be rare sight indeed. Night Hag Powerful and always looking for souls, night hags occasionally leave the Grey Waste for new hunting grounds. **In Planescape they wouldn't be that unusual in Sigil, but back to your generic idea, they wouldn't be welcome in planar cities in any good plane. Rogue modron: Being unexpected occurrences from Mechanus means there’ll be few of them in existence, but Sigil is a suitable place for them to learn about their newfound consciousness. ***I can't imagine them being terribly common. Mercane: Sigil is the biggest center of interplanar trade, so they should be right at home, but I just don’t see them as being that visible at a Sigil plaza: I figure their inherent Lawfulness would probably draw them to select Tu’narath on the Astral instead, for major interplanar business. Here, they also can Plane Shift out, should the ‘yanki or other clients endanger them beyond what their guards can handle. EDIT: Apparently, mercanes avoid Sigil at all costs, and thus the entry is moved to the bottom of the list (I figure the rare sighting might be one put there by a planar mishap, and now looking for a way out). Source: Manuel of the Planes. ***I assume this is the same thing as the arcane. Originally, yes, they were never found in Sigil. I love them and use them a good bit, even had one as a prominent NPC. I think outside of Sigil they should be common enough. Pretty good list, I would leave a few out, like bladelings. You forgot petitioners, planar demihumans, planar humanoids like goblins or ogres. Tim
Dunamin 04-29-07, 04:54 PM	First of all, thank you for taking the time to give such thorough feedback. It really helps when people comment on specifics like this, so I appreciate it. Second of all, as another poster said, no such thing as a generic planar city. Close as you could get would be generic for certain areas, such as the Lower or Upper Outer Planes. One of the things I liked about Planescape was all the variety and you never knew what you were going to find in a burg or site, even things you would never expect. I’ve pretty much only the same reply to offer, as I did before: Oh, I agree. It’s more meant as an exercise (as in “if there was such a thing as a truly generic planar metropolis…”), which just happens to be most applicable to Sigil, but might be even more so in a homebrewed setting. In other words, I’m just having fun with a theoretical setting, but might put some of it into practice in my campaign. I’m avoiding handling the common Material plane races altogether – it seems to vary greatly how common people feel they should appear in planar settings. Personally, I decrease their presence significantly compared to the Planar Handbook’s demographics of Sigil, for instance, to give it even more of an otherworldly feel, when my players visit it. **I respect that but I have disagree. To me it is kind of cool that there are whole races of humans who are born, live, and die on the Outer Planes, who adventure in the lands where people go when the die, deal with fiends and celestials, who can actually visit the lands of the God and see where they might go when the die, that mere mortals DARE to not only adventure but live and work and raise children in the Outer Planes (and the Inner Planes), areas once thought of as virtually unreachable and/or incredibly dangerous. Actually, those are some of the very same reasons why I want to deemphasize the representation of common prime races – those humans who do thrive on the Outer and Inner Planes are that much more respected by their prime peers because only few have what it takes to prosper in such foreign lands. I still see humans as a major race in this theoretical generic planar metropolis, but far from represented to the extent that is given for Sigil in the Planar Handbook: 37% humans, 20% planetouched, 10% elves, 10% halflings, 3% dwarves, 20% other. While most of these likely are planars, that’s still 60% of the population of the City of Doors being the same common races of the prime worlds. I find that boring, but to each their own. I never thought of the genasi as merely touched by the elements, though there is that. Many might be touched by blood going back to the genie races, and in some settings -such as Al-Qadim - that can be quite significant. I also view the Inner Planes as unexplored territory and who knows what is really out there. My use of the term “touched by the elements”, is just a way of saying “planetouched via relation to one of the Elemental Planes”. Whether that relation is derived from genie ancestry (or a similar Inner Plane native), a magical ritual or planar influence, I intentionally leave open. As to the Inner Planes being unexplored… well, naturally, I’d say – they’re infinite. There are still plenty of explored territory, notably around the various genie kingdoms (particularly huge metropolises, such as the City of Glass and City of Bronze). I haven’t looked too closely at the mephlings, but I’d expect them to mirror the genasi that their element seems closest to. **Ah yes, mephits might have a role too in genasi blood. What I meant was that their representation in the theoretical generic planar crowd probably follows the same patterns as that of the genasi. Mechanically, genasi and mephlings are given as separate species, although I suppose one might also say that mephlings are a distinct sort of genasi – those that are specifically derived from mephit ancestry. Githyanki: They like no one, no one likes them, they have their own planar metropolis, and the Astral is such a nicer place for them to be (and magic to hold off time catching up when you leave is probably hard to come by). Even so, they still make up a significant deal of Sigil’s population, many of them being exiles from the githyanki empire. **They didn't make up much of the population in what I have read of Sigil back in the day but maybe that has changed. They are evil and more xenophobic than their Githzeria cousins. Initially, I didn’t imagine ‘yankis as being a major race in Sigil either, and thus I had originally placed them much lower on the list, reflecting the entry I wrote for them. I only added the last part in the entry and moved them up a great deal after Rip brought up how canon seemed to say otherwise. Rakshasa Powerful and civil make rakshasa fit for Sigil life. Their magical power, Change Shape ability and gifted skills in the art of speech make them particularly well suited for trading in darks among the underworld. **You have got to be kidding me. Those are horrible creatures. Well, true, fiends walk around in Sigil, but they are hardly COMMON. What do you mean by “horrible”? If you mean “horribly fit for civil life”, I can’t really see why – to me, they seem very fit for living in a planar metropolis, particularly in areas dominated by baatezu. Or perhaps you meant as in “horribly evil”? Indeed, they have been called the very embodiments of evil – a title that also is given to baatezu, yugoloths and tanar’ri, depending on who you ask – and they, as you say, walk the streets of Sigil just as some celestials do. Rakshasa are actually particularly suited because of their Change Shape ability which easily lets them blend in, and supported by their Detect Thoughts ability which can help them discern when their true nature is suspected. Being natural spellcasters further adds ability to blend into society. That being said, I agree that rakshasa should be far from common. **Slaad are basically nearly animalistic and almost completely insane. Rogue slaad, why not, but I don't think any race is particularly suited as a whole to any berg anywhere. This is definitely the point where I disagree most. My view on Slaadi-kind as a whole seems to be dramatically different than yours, and I’m particularly in disagreement on calling the green slaad “animalistic”. I can understand where that view is coming from, however - the single most important and dominating concept about the Slaadi is that they are exemplars of true Chaos, and in that respect, they have been handled horribly in pretty much every edition I’ve seen. In the MM they are portrayed as demon-like insane monsters, a presentation that simply doesn’t make sense to me in the context of incarnations of perfect Chaos. This discussion on the nature of Chaos and the other alignments is pretty fundamental to the game, and have been done to death in many other threads. Nevertheless, I’d be happy to discuss Slaadi in another thread, so as to not derail this one. :) My views on Slaadi mostly match those revolving the Chaos Project of the Dicefreaks community (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=6692), if you happen to be familiar with it or want to check it out. Succubus: Focused on deceit and seduction make succubi likely in a crowd, but like the falxugon, their teleporting offsets chances somewhat of actually encountering it on the streets (both fiends are definitely more likely in the crowd of a social event among the upper class, however). ***They are probably suprisingly common but still not common in the sense anyone notices them or knows what they are. Ditto with the Erinyes. Actually, I see erinyes as significantly less represented than succubi. They can’t hide their nature to the same extent, nor are their roles focused as temptresses (or rather, their other roles as scouts take them more away from civilization). Night Hag Powerful and always looking for souls, night hags occasionally leave the Grey Waste for new hunting grounds. **In Planescape they wouldn't be that unusual in Sigil, but back to your generic idea, they wouldn't be welcome in planar cities in any good plane. Naturally, but I’m not talking about good planes, though. Rogue modron: Being unexpected occurrences from Mechanus means there’ll be few of them in existence, but Sigil is a suitable place for them to learn about their newfound consciousness. ***I can't imagine them being terribly common. I am of the same opinion, and that’s why I put them way down on the list. Still thought I’d put them there, since they are fairly classical (out of game, that is). You forgot petitioners, planar demihumans, planar humanoids like goblins or ogres. I didn’t forget them, just didn’t feel like handling them at the moment, though I might do so later. When I wrote that I wasn’t doing the common prime races, I also meant planar versions of those. In conclusion, thanks again for taking the time to reply in such great detail, it sure helps when constructive criticism is delivered in such an organized manner. :)
ripvanwormer 04-29-07, 07:40 PM	Whether githyanki are a major race or not is somewhat a matter of opinion. There's at least one neighborhood in Sigil filled with them, but that might be true of any number of minor races. You'd be on solid ground putting them much further down on the list.
Mazaron 04-30-07, 12:32 AM	Actually, those are some of the very same reasons why I want to deemphasize the representation of common prime races – those humans who do thrive on the Outer and Inner Planes are that much more respected by their prime peers because only few have what it takes to prosper in such foreign lands. I still see humans as a major race in this theoretical generic planar metropolis, but far from represented to the extent that is given for Sigil in the Planar Handbook: 37% humans, 20% planetouched, 10% elves, 10% halflings, 3% dwarves, 20% other. While most of these likely are planars, that’s still 60% of the population of the City of Doors being the same common races of the prime worlds. I find that boring, but to each their own. ****I don't find planar humans boring at all, and 40% nonhuman is still a very high percentage of nonhuman. Still, point taken, emphasizing that the Outer and Inner Planes are hostile and not really home to mortals. Plus, 37% is plentyto work with (and planetouched look and act a lot like prime humans). I think your halfling percentage is actually probably too high, to me, those guys can be boring. Certianly not the types you would often expect out there in the Outer or Inner Planes. As to the Inner Planes being unexplored… well, naturally, I’d say – they’re infinite. There are still plenty of explored territory, notably around the various genie kingdoms (particularly huge metropolises, such as the City of Glass and City of Bronze). **I rather like the idea of many cities on the Elemental Planes of Water and Air especially. What I meant was that their representation in the theoretical generic planar crowd probably follows the same patterns as that of the genasi. Mechanically, genasi and mephlings are given as separate species, although I suppose one might also say that mephlings are a distinct sort of genasi – those that are specifically derived from mephit ancestry. ***Hmmm, maybe. The Genasi seem to have of mortal about them, while the mephits seem more purely elemental. I would say they are definitely different. What do you mean by “horrible”? If you mean “horribly fit for civil life”, I can’t really see why – to me, they seem very fit for living in a planar metropolis, particularly in areas dominated by baatezu. Or perhaps you meant as in “horribly evil”? Indeed, they have been called the very embodiments of evil – a title that also is given to baatezu, yugoloths and tanar’ri, depending on who you ask – and they, as you say, walk the streets of Sigil just as some celestials do. Rakshasa are actually particularly suited because of their Change Shape ability which easily lets them blend in, and supported by their Detect Thoughts ability which can help them discern when their true nature is suspected. Being natural spellcasters further adds ability to blend into society. That being said, I agree that rakshasa should be far from common. **I never saw the rakshasha as common anywhere and their predatory aspects would make them unwelcome in Sigil, just as vampires would be. Fiends aren't loved but many don't go around eating people. Sure, like vampires, they would thrive in a planar city, just not sure they wouldn't be hunted down by good and bad planar and prime alike. However, I do give you credit for even bringing them up. They are truly an overlooked race. This is definitely the point where I disagree most. My view on Slaadi-kind as a whole seems to be dramatically different than yours, and I’m particularly in disagreement on calling the green slaad “animalistic”. I can understand where that view is coming from, however - the single most important and dominating concept about the Slaadi is that they are exemplars of true Chaos, and in that respect, they have been handled horribly in pretty much every edition I’ve seen. In the MM they are portrayed as demon-like insane monsters, a presentation that simply doesn’t make sense to me in the context of incarnations of perfect Chaos. This discussion on the nature of Chaos and the other alignments is pretty fundamental to the game, and have been done to death in many other threads. Nevertheless, I’d be happy to discuss Slaadi in another thread, so as to not derail this one. :) My views on Slaadi mostly match those revolving the Chaos Project of the Dicefreaks community (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=6692), if you happen to be familiar with it or want to check it out. **I will have to admit I haven't given the slaad a whole lot of thought. Never used them but I liked the idea that they existed. You are right, they aren't unintelligent. Some are actually quite intelligent, even what you might call educated, and will convese with non slaads. Or eat them. They don't subscribe to the same morals and world(s)view of humans. To me that is part of the point. Actually, I see erinyes as significantly less represented than succubi. They can’t hide their nature to the same extent, nor are their roles focused as temptresses (or rather, their other roles as scouts take them more away from civilization). ***My mistake. Though succubi excel at the whole temptress role, I thought the erinyes had a similar role to play with regards to the baatezu. I don't have my Planescape books with me at the moment. I am of the same opinion, and that’s why I put them way down on the list. Still thought I’d put them there, since they are fairly classical (out of game, that is). **Oh sure, they should be present, but they should be very, very rare. They are a part of the flavor of the setting and are a classic Planescape race, just they would likely be less than 1% of the population. I didn’t forget them, just didn’t feel like handling them at the moment, though I might do so later. When I wrote that I wasn’t doing the common prime races, I also meant planar versions of those. ***But there could be planar variants of them. I think Monster Manual IV had a variant goblin race that could easily be placed one one of the Outer Planes. The amitok, a white-furred, giantish goblin race back in 1E days of Dragon Magazine, might be a goblin race adapted to some harsh Outer or Inner Plane. I would play with that some. In conclusion, thanks again for taking the time to reply in such great detail, it sure helps when constructive criticism is delivered in such an organized manner. :)[/QUOTE] ***Sure. I love Planescape, love the D&D cosmology, and love the many cool races, like the eladrin, guardinals, rilmani, and so forth. I am sure we could come up with other races to put in a planar city but you had a good list.
Kobold Avenger 05-01-07, 02:02 AM	There aren't that many elves, gnomes, halflings and dwarves in Sigil, as presented in the Planar Handbook. I think each of those races has maybe a single digit percentage of the population. The Planescape products often said that, those races were rare across the planes, mainly because the designers didn't want players playing elves and dwarves in a PS campaign, but they gave the reason that those races have their paradises within reach, and therefore wouldn't want to go out there. I fact I would have it such that goblins, orcs and kobolds have a higher population demographic in planar metropoli than elves and dwarves. Mainly because they're already depicted as being quite numerous on many worlds. And even if there's an infinite amount of worlds where they are the normal savage evil humanoids, there's also an infinite number of worlds (even if it's less) where they aren't that. Plus living in a melting pot planar metropolis tends to melt away racial tendencies.
primemover003 05-01-07, 05:27 PM	The only reason the Planar Handbook has the population breakdown with so many Prime races is because the POV of most DM's is from the Prime. When you determine you want to play a Planar Campaign you need to rethink your whole outlook. Thus Planescape came up with it's take on the Outer Planes, making them a place where low level adventurers could live and survive. The MotP and the PlH don't make the same strides.
Mazaron 05-02-07, 12:14 AM	[QUOTE=Kobold Avenger;12264304]There aren't that many elves, gnomes, halflings and dwarves in Sigil, as presented in the Planar Handbook. I think each of those races has maybe a single digit percentage of the population. The Planescape products often said that, those races were rare across the planes, mainly because the designers didn't want players playing elves and dwarves in a PS campaign, but they gave the reason that those races have their paradises within reach, and therefore wouldn't want to go out there. QUOTE] ***I don't know about percentages. The game designers in the books said several times one shouldn't play dwarves, elves etc for the reasons you say (adventurers among those race in the planes would be rare, why not go to live in a literal paradise when they can?) and also because they wanted to encourage the players to try something new, namely the Planescape races of aasimar, tielfing, bariaur, rogue modron, genasi, and githzerai. I think MM3 half-jann (or is that in Sandstorm?) would be a great one to add to the basic Planescape list. Khaasta too, their Monstrous Compendium entry made them sound like they were common throughout the planes in terms of trade and in burgs.
Mazaron 05-02-07, 12:18 AM	The only reason the Planar Handbook has the population breakdown with so many Prime races is because the POV of most DM's is from the Prime. When you determine you want to play a Planar Campaign you need to rethink your whole outlook. Thus Planescape came up with it's take on the Outer Planes, making them a place where low level adventurers could live and survive. The MotP and the PlH don't make the same strides. **Very, very well put. The orignal Manual of the Planes (1E) was great to read, but for most of the places out there didn't look very reachable or survivable for any but the highest level (or if survivable then very boring as was the case with some of the upper planes). One of the beautiful things about Planescape was to create interesting adventure environments and adversaries than even 1st levels could withstand, still had the sense of wonder and awe the setting should have, and even allowed for occasional meetings and dealings with powerful and evil fiends on somewhat even standings (not a standard kill them before they kill you sort of thing). I always thought it neat that people dared to have cities, mere mortals, out in the outer planes, that mere humans (and other mortal races) engaged in politics, trade, had stores and taverns, got married, raised families, all in a world which had demons and devils and even gods walking about. Heck, in Planescape humans even live in the Lower Planes, though obviously not in great numbers.
Dunamin 05-02-07, 04:09 AM	Made a few changes to the list: Githyanki and rakshasa moved down on list. Typical archon replaced with warden archon (rationale provided). I think your halfling percentage is actually probably too high, to me, those guys can be boring. There are two primary reasons why I suggested halflings have a slightly higher percentage representation: First of all, they usually come in as most numerous race after humans in most countries on the basic prime world campaign setting, Oerth/Greyhawk. Secondly, they are a well-travelled race, according to Races of the Wild, so I figure that might extend to planar travel as well. However, one of the things that work against them is that their miniscule physique make them appear as more vulnerable targets for those who might wish to do them harm. On the other hand, they are good at staying out of sight. I never saw the rakshasha as common anywhere and their predatory aspects would make them unwelcome in Sigil, just as vampires would be. Fiends aren't loved but many don't go around eating people. Sure, like vampires, they would thrive in a planar city, just not sure they wouldn't be hunted down by good and bad planar and prime alike. Rakshasa are common in Acheron, where they rule plenty of cubes, and they can also be found in Baator. Offhand, I see no reason why Sigil should be more hostile to rakshasa than towards baatezu – the more important thing, however, is that rakshasa generally are pretty good at hiding their nature. Also, I hardly think rakshasa eat more people than some of the more notorious fiends, such as the tanar’ri. I do think they should be less common than the exemplar races, however, and have edited the list accordingly. The Planescape products often said that, those races were rare across the planes, mainly because the designers didn't want players playing elves and dwarves in a PS campaign, but they gave the reason that those races have their paradises within reach, and therefore wouldn't want to go out there. Both aspects make sense – both the out-of-game and in-game ones. The rationale for humans being an exception is also well-covered in that there generally isn’t a recognized human creator god/pantheon.
Mazaron 05-02-07, 02:09 PM	There are two primary reasons why I suggested halflings have a slightly higher percentage representation: First of all, they usually come in as most numerous race after humans in most countries on the basic prime world campaign setting, Oerth/Greyhawk. Secondly, they are a well-travelled race, according to Races of the Wild, so I figure that might extend to planar travel as well. However, one of the things that work against them is that their miniscule physique make them appear as more vulnerable targets for those who might wish to do them harm. On the other hand, they are good at staying out of sight. ***Sort of a salt of the earth type niche, maybe a well-traveled merchant niche, much as the Lebanese are said to be in Africa, the Koreans in the US, or throughout history the Armenians and Jews. Not to say that is ALL those human nationalities did, but for some reason many members of those groups traveled abroad and settled in many locations. There was for many decades for instance an Armenian merchant enclave in India. Yes, true, they are often presented as the next most common race after humans and also to live in more accessible areas than either dwarves or elves (gnomes I guess get lost in the shuffle). I can't argue with your reasoning there. I just don't think of them much. The only ones I used to any great degree were the wild halflings. Rakshasa are common in Acheron, where they rule plenty of cubes, and they can also be found in Baator. Offhand, I see no reason why Sigil should be more hostile to rakshasa than towards baatezu – the more important thing, however, is that rakshasa generally are pretty good at hiding their nature. Also, I hardly think rakshasa eat more people than some of the more notorious fiends, such as the tanar’ri. I do think they should be less common than the exemplar races, however, and have edited the list accordingly. ***I didn't know they were common on Acheron. IIRC they weren't especially discussed in Planescape materials. I have to admit I don't know a lot about them, but I saw them as urban predators like vampires, whereas tanar'ri not so much. Sure some might eat humans but hunting them for food is not what they do. Both aspects make sense – both the out-of-game and in-game ones. The rationale for humans being an exception is also well-covered in that there generally isn’t a recognized human creator god/pantheon.[/QUOTE] **That and the general nature of humanity, we fill ever niche. That IS our niche.
primemover003 05-02-07, 04:05 PM	Yeah Acheron was supposed to be lousy with Rakshasa... Even though I understand why they pout them in Warm Marsh climates in the MM I'm still puzzled as to why they made them Native Outsiders... or Couatls for that matter.
Dunamin 05-05-07, 12:08 PM	I have to admit I don't know a lot about them, but I saw them as urban predators like vampires, whereas tanar'ri not so much. Sure some might eat humans but hunting them for food is not what they do. When I think of rakshasa, I think more “cunning fiendish nobles”, not as much “bestial predators”. Perhaps your emphasis on predatory nature is influenced by the current Monster Manual giving a tiger-headed rakshasa as an example? Rakshasa also come in other sorts of anthropomorphic animal forms, such as baboon-headed ones. Even though I understand why they pout them in Warm Marsh climates in the MM I'm still puzzled as to why they made them Native Outsiders... or Couatls for that matter. I don’t get it either. I’m kind of thinking, the game designers figured they were short on creatures to designate as native outsiders, during the revision – particularly when keeping in mind, that one of the focuses of the update to 3.5 were on the ranger class, and thus I suppose they paid close attention to making sure that every favored enemy type was worthwhile to choose. Eh, mere wild speculation…
Mazaron 05-05-07, 04:04 PM	When I think of rakshasa, I think more “cunning fiendish nobles”, not as much “bestial predators”. Perhaps your emphasis on predatory nature is influenced by the current Monster Manual giving a tiger-headed rakshasa as an example? Rakshasa also come in other sorts of anthropomorphic animal forms, such as baboon-headed ones. ****I remember seeing the picture in the 3E MM but I don't recall reading the entry. They have pretty much always been shown with tiger heads in D&D though a 1E Dragon magazine issue waaaay back talked about Rakshasha lords, Rakshaha knights, and a Rakshaha god, so why not? Again, I don't know much about these guys, sounds like they would be good ones to use. I don’t get it either. I’m kind of thinking, the game designers figured they were short on creatures to designate as native outsiders, during the revision – particularly when keeping in mind, that one of the focuses of the update to 3.5 were on the ranger class, and thus I suppose they paid close attention to making sure that every favored enemy type was worthwhile to choose. Eh, mere wild speculation… **What is a native outsider? Seems to me that the couatl is so vital to a Mesoamerican setting (i.e. Maztica) and the rakhshash so vital to an Indian setting that shound't really be outsiders.
captainswift 05-05-07, 10:32 PM	The one place a mercane would never go, let alone set up kip, is Sigil. For unknown reasons, the whole race avoids the Cage at all costs. Wow. I have completely missed that little tidbit. I have a fairly major Mercane merchant in my game. I may have to create a big reveal for Jov...