Demon Lords and Archdevils [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demon Lords and Archdevils [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
danzibr
03-16-07, 10:08 PM At least, I think I got the terminology right.

Okay, so I've read that it is seriously, literally impossible to kill a god (not an aspect or anything, the real McCoy). So yeah, let's not consider this.

My question is... how plausible is it to kill a Demon Lord or Archdevil? I got the BoVD (and DMGII, Heroes of Horror and Races of Destiny) today (and I like them), and I was thinking... well, making a campaign where some pretty decent lvl people start out on the material plane and get thrust into either the Abyss or Nine Hells or something and gain levels and such until their ultimate goal becomes to kill a Demon Lord or Archdevil.

I probably won't follow this idea through, but yeah, the question: how realistic is it to do such a thing?

I know a bunch of those guys have been trying to kill each other for thousands and thousands of year (without success in most cases, needless to say), so what about a group of five epic adventurers? :P

Dan
Pitiless_Interfector
03-16-07, 10:57 PM Now, this is a very, very tricky area. The people at Dicefreaks have been trying to come up with a sensible continuity, something that gets harder and harder with each new Fiendish Codex that comes out (So far, there have been two: Hordes of the Abyss and Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Way better than BoVD if you want to make the Abyss or Baator the center of your campaign) In FC I: Hordes of the Abyss, they've knocked Demogorgon down to CR 23 (with the assumption that Demogorgon is not only played the way an Int 26 being should be, but has stacked the environment against the PCs and called in, well, the Hordes of the Abyss). This belies the fact that a human Wiz 15/Archmage 5 who has made use of Tomes is not only capable of beating the demon prince with the help of a few other 20-level beings, but to, add insult to injury, is actually smarter (i.e., has a higher Int score, including inherent bonuses from tomes and wishes) than the demon prince. And Juiblex is now CR 19. Ludicrous. FC II produces a similarly defanged series of archdevil stats (at least Asmodeus is CR 27), but with the added caveat that they are actually just stats for souped-up Aspects of the archdevils instead of 3.5 revisions of the BoVD material. Why they didn't do this for FC I and the demon princes is beyond me (incidentally, every demon lord in the FC can and probably is using an astral projection spell-like ability to visit other planes and not worry about being permanently destroyed [though, unlike the spell, demon lords who die in astral form are trapped on their home layer for 100 years]. The BoVD has more powerful stats for all of them, but of course, not being 3.5, they're kind of kludgey, if you get my meaning [hell, the CR 25 klurichir demon from Fiend Folio was redesignated as CR 17 in FC I]. The BoVD stats are probably set at a CR too high for their abilities, at least if you simply transfer everything to 3.5 without messing with anything.
Dicefreaks, however, sets the demon lords and archdevils as impossible challenges, setting a true cap of level 50 for humanoid PCs and creating statistics for Demogorgon and Asmodeus that would make your knees rattle (CR 76 and CR 80-something, respectively), referencing 'virtual divine ranks' and 'overdeities' and a bunch of other crap that I didn't really look at too closely because I found their color scheme disturbing and unnatural. In short, nobody agrees on jack sh!t anymore, especially not the official WotC people, so just homebrew some stuff and wing it. [There's a reason every 3.5 book wastes pages and pages reiterating 'it's your game' ad nauseam]
Singer_of_the_Song
03-16-07, 10:59 PM Lots of people have very different ideas. Some people think that the Demon Lords and Archdevils should be just as powerful as the gods, and essentially impossible to kill. Dicefreaks, a group of designers who have their own website, subscribe to this view.

Others think that the Demon Lords and Archdevils should just be big monsters of varying levels of power. The Book of Vile Darkness stats them out to be CR 20-32. The Fiendish Codex I & II stat them out to be CR 19-27.

Other people think they should not have stats at all.

Ultimately, it's whatever you like and whatever works for your game. Just do whatever is fun for you and your group. If you have a good idea for a campaign that involves killing an Arch-Fiend, by all means do so. It could be great stuff.
Krevon
03-16-07, 11:23 PM In Tyrants of the Nine Hells it gives you ways to increase thier power if you needed.
Gray Richardson
03-17-07, 12:37 AM It's very easy to kill a demon prince or archdevil.

Ah, but keeping them from coming back... that's the trick! :devil:
Shemeska the Marauder
03-17-07, 01:17 AM It's probably easier to permenantly kill a deity than it is to kill an archfiend.

Archfiends are manifestations of their alignment, base componants of reality. The oldest fiends predate mortal life and the existance of gods. Many of them control infinite stretches of reality, molding and warping the very essence of their home planes across that distance to their whimsy, while a deity has a similar level of power only over the discrete bounds of their deific domains.

Gods wither away and die without worship, and killing their mortal followers will give them a quick ticket to floating in the Astral as a husk of rock. You can kill them and deny them the chance of return, but archfiends are linked to base elements of reality. How do you kill Evil? How do you kill a concept?

There's a lot more involved in killing an archfiend, and typically a lot more to worry about in the longrun.
Shedeo
03-17-07, 01:24 AM The way that I work it in my games is that the Archdevils/Demonlords/Whatevers are just as powerful as the gods.

Thing is, that in my setting, gods are very powerful outsiders (with CRs ranging from 50-80.) And that's about it. So if I had to say that I am of one opinion or the other, I'd say that they'd be the higher-challenge rating versions of them presented in the BoVD. That is, unless, your game calls for lower CR baddies, then go for the Fiendish Codex versions.
Angelflesh
03-17-07, 02:18 AM Now, this is a very, very tricky area. The people at Dicefreaks have been trying to come up with a sensible continuity, something that gets harder and harder with each new Fiendish Codex that comes out (So far, there have been two: Hordes of the Abyss and Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Way better than BoVD if you want to make the Abyss or Baator the center of your campaign) In FC I: Hordes of the Abyss, they've knocked Demogorgon down to CR 23

Well, technically i believe those are simply aspects in FC: I & II. If anyone really thinks the Archdevils and Demon Lords are bearly stronger than a Balor of Pit Fiend then thay are stupid, to put it bluntly...
ForgottenImmortal
03-17-07, 02:40 AM Going to have to agree with Shemeska the Marauder. Demogorgon created the material plane according to some dnd creation theories and was the first corruption of chaos. Asmodeus even in WotC flavor is really only an avatar to the evil Overlord at the bottom of baator. The thing you need to remember is how 'epic' is your world if characters never get past level 20 then WotC material is ok with a few adjustments. If you play epic you will find your WotC gods and other immortals soon starting to faulter. One way to fix your deities and to give them class levels instead of outsider hitdice. As for fixing your archfiends give the virtual divine ranks so they can pit their power against gods. If you look in flavor the cosmic entities are always more powerful then gods. Deities have been kicked out of baator by nine lords. I like dice freaks rule cause it seems more fitting stats for deities/cosmic entities and makes sense why they never try and duke it out in person. Just ask your self if you want mortals to be able to slay immortals. If yes use WotC stats and Epic Level Handbook and all your immortals should be dead by 40s.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-17-07, 03:10 AM Demogorgon created the material plane according to some dnd creation theories and was the first corruption of chaos.

Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons.

Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them.
Singer_of_the_Song
03-17-07, 03:16 AM Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons.

Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them.

Furthermore, it is whispered that Dagon taught Demogorgon a lot of what he knew. Obviously the pupil has outstripped the master in power, but Dagon is older (at least going by stuff recently written) and I don't think Demogorgon is quite seminal enough to have the honor of creating the Prime.
Orodruin
03-17-07, 08:26 AM Furthermore, it is whispered that Dagon taught Demogorgon a lot of what he knew. Obviously the pupil has outstripped the master in power, but Dagon is older (at least going by stuff recently written) and I don't think Demogorgon is quite seminal enough to have the honor of creating the Prime.

Plus, being a Tanar'ri, one would assume that the soul that eventually evolved into Demogorgon had to originate from the Prime Material plane to begin with. :P
Taeldrin Laesrash
03-17-07, 09:52 AM Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons.

Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them.

That's Dicefreaks. An alternate title for their Demogorgon is the Demiurge, and I believe their Demogorgon is also not just a Tanar'ii, but a more direct incarnation of CE that existed since the multiverse began.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-17-07, 10:00 AM Plus, being a Tanar'ri, one would assume that the soul that eventually evolved into Demogorgon had to originate from the Prime Material plane to begin with. :P

Tanar'ri don't necessarily come for mortal souls. Orcus did, but Demogorgon probably spawned directly from the Abyss.
sooperspook
03-17-07, 11:06 AM I have to disagree with Shemeska here.

It really depends on which campaign setting you're using. In FR the gods are surprisingly easy to kill. In base Greyhawk, not so much. In fact in the base setting, gods don't so much die as go dormant and float around on the Astral. And , iirc, there are a few deities that predate mortals. So they certainly don't need worship to survive.

Like wise, nowhere is there definitive proof that Asmodeous is all powerful within Hell. Theres a while lot of myth, stories and legends but no proof. In fact if you go strictly by the book he isn't really all that powerful personally compared to some deities.

Does he control all of Hell? Not really. He controls those bits that aren't under the control of a deity. still, bits of infinity are still infinite so its a moot point.

Before you decide what level of power Demon/Devil lords are, decide how deific power works in your campaign. That should give you a good basis.
Bob the Efreet
03-17-07, 01:20 PM Like wise, nowhere is there definitive proof that Asmodeous is all powerful within Hell. Theres a while lot of myth, stories and legends but no proof. In fact if you go strictly by the book he isn't really all that powerful personally compared to some deities.

You should investigate Fiendish Codex II. Descriptions of Baator clearly imply that Asmodeus is nigh-omnipotent within the plane.
sooperspook
03-17-07, 11:54 PM I have both fiendish codexs' and from my reading , while Asmo is very powerful and has a great deal of control, he is far from "Omnipotent". It might suit him to have the everyone else, inc. other Archdevils, believe so though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danzibr 03-16-07, 10:08 PM	At least, I think I got the terminology right. Okay, so I've read that it is seriously, literally impossible to kill a god (not an aspect or anything, the real McCoy). So yeah, let's not consider this. My question is... how plausible is it to kill a Demon Lord or Archdevil? I got the BoVD (and DMGII, Heroes of Horror and Races of Destiny) today (and I like them), and I was thinking... well, making a campaign where some pretty decent lvl people start out on the material plane and get thrust into either the Abyss or Nine Hells or something and gain levels and such until their ultimate goal becomes to kill a Demon Lord or Archdevil. I probably won't follow this idea through, but yeah, the question: how realistic is it to do such a thing? I know a bunch of those guys have been trying to kill each other for thousands and thousands of year (without success in most cases, needless to say), so what about a group of five epic adventurers? :P Dan
Pitiless_Interfector 03-16-07, 10:57 PM	Now, this is a very, very tricky area. The people at Dicefreaks have been trying to come up with a sensible continuity, something that gets harder and harder with each new Fiendish Codex that comes out (So far, there have been two: Hordes of the Abyss and Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Way better than BoVD if you want to make the Abyss or Baator the center of your campaign) In FC I: Hordes of the Abyss, they've knocked Demogorgon down to CR 23 (with the assumption that Demogorgon is not only played the way an Int 26 being should be, but has stacked the environment against the PCs and called in, well, the Hordes of the Abyss). This belies the fact that a human Wiz 15/Archmage 5 who has made use of Tomes is not only capable of beating the demon prince with the help of a few other 20-level beings, but to, add insult to injury, is actually smarter (i.e., has a higher Int score, including inherent bonuses from tomes and wishes) than the demon prince. And Juiblex is now CR 19. Ludicrous. FC II produces a similarly defanged series of archdevil stats (at least Asmodeus is CR 27), but with the added caveat that they are actually just stats for souped-up Aspects of the archdevils instead of 3.5 revisions of the BoVD material. Why they didn't do this for FC I and the demon princes is beyond me (incidentally, every demon lord in the FC can and probably is using an astral projection spell-like ability to visit other planes and not worry about being permanently destroyed [though, unlike the spell, demon lords who die in astral form are trapped on their home layer for 100 years]. The BoVD has more powerful stats for all of them, but of course, not being 3.5, they're kind of kludgey, if you get my meaning [hell, the CR 25 klurichir demon from Fiend Folio was redesignated as CR 17 in FC I]. The BoVD stats are probably set at a CR too high for their abilities, at least if you simply transfer everything to 3.5 without messing with anything. Dicefreaks, however, sets the demon lords and archdevils as impossible challenges, setting a true cap of level 50 for humanoid PCs and creating statistics for Demogorgon and Asmodeus that would make your knees rattle (CR 76 and CR 80-something, respectively), referencing 'virtual divine ranks' and 'overdeities' and a bunch of other crap that I didn't really look at too closely because I found their color scheme disturbing and unnatural. In short, nobody agrees on jack sh!t anymore, especially not the official WotC people, so just homebrew some stuff and wing it. [There's a reason every 3.5 book wastes pages and pages reiterating 'it's your game' ad nauseam]
Singer_of_the_Song 03-16-07, 10:59 PM	Lots of people have very different ideas. Some people think that the Demon Lords and Archdevils should be just as powerful as the gods, and essentially impossible to kill. Dicefreaks, a group of designers who have their own website, subscribe to this view. Others think that the Demon Lords and Archdevils should just be big monsters of varying levels of power. The Book of Vile Darkness stats them out to be CR 20-32. The Fiendish Codex I & II stat them out to be CR 19-27. Other people think they should not have stats at all. Ultimately, it's whatever you like and whatever works for your game. Just do whatever is fun for you and your group. If you have a good idea for a campaign that involves killing an Arch-Fiend, by all means do so. It could be great stuff.
Krevon 03-16-07, 11:23 PM	In Tyrants of the Nine Hells it gives you ways to increase thier power if you needed.
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 12:37 AM	It's very easy to kill a demon prince or archdevil. Ah, but keeping them from coming back... that's the trick! :devil:
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-07, 01:17 AM	It's probably easier to permenantly kill a deity than it is to kill an archfiend. Archfiends are manifestations of their alignment, base componants of reality. The oldest fiends predate mortal life and the existance of gods. Many of them control infinite stretches of reality, molding and warping the very essence of their home planes across that distance to their whimsy, while a deity has a similar level of power only over the discrete bounds of their deific domains. Gods wither away and die without worship, and killing their mortal followers will give them a quick ticket to floating in the Astral as a husk of rock. You can kill them and deny them the chance of return, but archfiends are linked to base elements of reality. How do you kill Evil? How do you kill a concept? There's a lot more involved in killing an archfiend, and typically a lot more to worry about in the longrun.
Shedeo 03-17-07, 01:24 AM	The way that I work it in my games is that the Archdevils/Demonlords/Whatevers are just as powerful as the gods. Thing is, that in my setting, gods are very powerful outsiders (with CRs ranging from 50-80.) And that's about it. So if I had to say that I am of one opinion or the other, I'd say that they'd be the higher-challenge rating versions of them presented in the BoVD. That is, unless, your game calls for lower CR baddies, then go for the Fiendish Codex versions.
Angelflesh 03-17-07, 02:18 AM	Now, this is a very, very tricky area. The people at Dicefreaks have been trying to come up with a sensible continuity, something that gets harder and harder with each new Fiendish Codex that comes out (So far, there have been two: Hordes of the Abyss and Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Way better than BoVD if you want to make the Abyss or Baator the center of your campaign) In FC I: Hordes of the Abyss, they've knocked Demogorgon down to CR 23 Well, technically i believe those are simply aspects in FC: I & II. If anyone really thinks the Archdevils and Demon Lords are bearly stronger than a Balor of Pit Fiend then thay are stupid, to put it bluntly...
ForgottenImmortal 03-17-07, 02:40 AM	Going to have to agree with Shemeska the Marauder. Demogorgon created the material plane according to some dnd creation theories and was the first corruption of chaos. Asmodeus even in WotC flavor is really only an avatar to the evil Overlord at the bottom of baator. The thing you need to remember is how 'epic' is your world if characters never get past level 20 then WotC material is ok with a few adjustments. If you play epic you will find your WotC gods and other immortals soon starting to faulter. One way to fix your deities and to give them class levels instead of outsider hitdice. As for fixing your archfiends give the virtual divine ranks so they can pit their power against gods. If you look in flavor the cosmic entities are always more powerful then gods. Deities have been kicked out of baator by nine lords. I like dice freaks rule cause it seems more fitting stats for deities/cosmic entities and makes sense why they never try and duke it out in person. Just ask your self if you want mortals to be able to slay immortals. If yes use WotC stats and Epic Level Handbook and all your immortals should be dead by 40s.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-07, 03:10 AM	Demogorgon created the material plane according to some dnd creation theories and was the first corruption of chaos. Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons. Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-17-07, 03:16 AM	Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons. Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them. Furthermore, it is whispered that Dagon taught Demogorgon a lot of what he knew. Obviously the pupil has outstripped the master in power, but Dagon is older (at least going by stuff recently written) and I don't think Demogorgon is quite seminal enough to have the honor of creating the Prime.
Orodruin 03-17-07, 08:26 AM	Furthermore, it is whispered that Dagon taught Demogorgon a lot of what he knew. Obviously the pupil has outstripped the master in power, but Dagon is older (at least going by stuff recently written) and I don't think Demogorgon is quite seminal enough to have the honor of creating the Prime. Plus, being a Tanar'ri, one would assume that the soul that eventually evolved into Demogorgon had to originate from the Prime Material plane to begin with. :P
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-17-07, 09:52 AM	Is that some dicefreaks thing? Because that would seem to be only if you ascribe to Demogorgon a status equivalent to the gnostic demiourgos/yaltabaoth, but that's not something that D&D's demogorgon has ever really been given, though that's the origin of the name that gygax snagged for the prince of demons. Demogorgon is powerful, but he postdates the Obyrith, and thus the prime material. I wouldn't give any of the fiends (or even any outsider in general) credit for the creation of the prime material. I like to think its emergence rather blindsided the first of them. That's Dicefreaks. An alternate title for their Demogorgon is the Demiurge, and I believe their Demogorgon is also not just a Tanar'ii, but a more direct incarnation of CE that existed since the multiverse began.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 10:00 AM	Plus, being a Tanar'ri, one would assume that the soul that eventually evolved into Demogorgon had to originate from the Prime Material plane to begin with. :P Tanar'ri don't necessarily come for mortal souls. Orcus did, but Demogorgon probably spawned directly from the Abyss.
sooperspook 03-17-07, 11:06 AM	I have to disagree with Shemeska here. It really depends on which campaign setting you're using. In FR the gods are surprisingly easy to kill. In base Greyhawk, not so much. In fact in the base setting, gods don't so much die as go dormant and float around on the Astral. And , iirc, there are a few deities that predate mortals. So they certainly don't need worship to survive. Like wise, nowhere is there definitive proof that Asmodeous is all powerful within Hell. Theres a while lot of myth, stories and legends but no proof. In fact if you go strictly by the book he isn't really all that powerful personally compared to some deities. Does he control all of Hell? Not really. He controls those bits that aren't under the control of a deity. still, bits of infinity are still infinite so its a moot point. Before you decide what level of power Demon/Devil lords are, decide how deific power works in your campaign. That should give you a good basis.
Bob the Efreet 03-17-07, 01:20 PM	Like wise, nowhere is there definitive proof that Asmodeous is all powerful within Hell. Theres a while lot of myth, stories and legends but no proof. In fact if you go strictly by the book he isn't really all that powerful personally compared to some deities. You should investigate Fiendish Codex II. Descriptions of Baator clearly imply that Asmodeus is nigh-omnipotent within the plane.
sooperspook 03-17-07, 11:54 PM	I have both fiendish codexs' and from my reading , while Asmo is very powerful and has a great deal of control, he is far from "Omnipotent". It might suit him to have the everyone else, inc. other Archdevils, believe so though.