Demon lords and plane travel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demon lords and plane travel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_Nova_
06-11-07, 03:23 PM Hello there, new to this community but not new to DnD :cool:

Im about to master a game "planes oriented" and particulary about the abyss

I'll be using the book of vile darkness and FC1, but there is one thing thats isnt clear to me. If a demon lord, lets say, for instance, Demogorgon, wants to travel to the demi-plane Im creating, will he use to Iron fortress in Pazunia and leave his real body there? Or will he use astral projection so he will be bound to his silver cord all the time he travels in my demi-plane? or use plane shift?

is there a "rule" about that or is it entirely left to my discretion?
you guys have any suggestion?

thx
aushlo
06-11-07, 07:49 PM He'd probably create an Aspect, a fraction of his essence, and send it. It could easily be anywhere powerwise between the Web Enhancement Aspect of Demogorgon and the BoVD Demogorgon.

The way I understand Aspects, they're more or less a seperate entity, but one that can be reabsorbed in some fashion. I don't know if any official rules for such things are available though.
_Nova_
06-12-07, 02:44 PM Hello

I should have mentionned in my first post that I was talking about the demon lords THEMSELVES, not an aspect of them.

You see, in my game the "main frame" is that some demon lords are trying to gain control of the demiplane I invented trough cults, so one day the demoplane itself would "fall" into the layer of the Abyss the demon lord controls, a bit like the way Lolth stole worlds away and ascended to god-hood

but in my game, the demon lord HIMSELF (not an aspect) must come on the demiplane and put the final crest of victory if he wants to bring back the world with him (I assume he would need one hell of a bag of holding with him :P )

I read this entry last night in FC1 : HOTA, its about Pazunia and the iron fortresses

- On the edge of the great pits crouch massive iron fortresses, relics of the obyriths now inhabited by mighty tanar'ric lords who have not yet mustered the power to bend an entire layer to their wills. These warlike, scheming lords use special chambers within the fortresses to project themselves through the Astral plane and onto the Material worlds...

that leads me to a few questions :

1. Is the astral plane connected to EVERY single layer of the abyss, or only with Pazunia?

2. If I read the entry correctly, the demon lords using the iron fortresses to travel are NOT master of an entire layer, therefore they are minor demon lords?
Shemeska the Marauder
06-12-07, 06:04 PM that leads me to a few questions :

1. Is the astral plane connected to EVERY single layer of the abyss, or only with Pazunia?

Because of underlying game mechanics, 3e assumes that the astral touches those deeper layers. This is largely the result of unintended rules changes rather than being intentional to have the astral touch pretty much everywhere. Prior to 3e, the Astral only touched the first layer of every outer plane, making portals and planar pathways much more important because you couldn't simply planeshift to get everything.

However there are exceptions, though they aren't stated nearly enough. You could assume perhaps that many Abyssal lords have the power to restrict simple planeshifting to layers they claim by sheer force of will, much as how deities can restrict access to their divine domains (though the archfiends are doing it on an infinitely larger scale).

In going with the flavor and lore, only Pazunia has a rock solid default connection to the Astral, however it's the Abyss, so the connection may be sporadic and fluid on hundreds, thousands, or millions of other layers, allowing astral conduits to pierce into deep layers and seed them with larvae, or allow for people to planeshift (or have horrible accidents while attempting to do so).

2. If I read the entry correctly, the demon lords using the iron fortresses to travel are NOT master of an entire layer, therefore they are minor demon lords?

You would be correct. Pazunia is littered with minor abyssal lords who lack the power to claim a specific layer of the Abyss as their own, bend it to their will, and rework a personal and infinite stretch of reality to their whim. But 'lack the power' might be semantics so far as most beings are concerned, because it's still suicide to assume that they're weak.
ripvanwormer
06-12-07, 11:04 PM However there are exceptions, though they aren't stated nearly enough. You could assume perhaps that many Abyssal lords have the power to restrict simple planeshifting to layers they claim by sheer force of will, much as how deities can restrict access to their divine domains (though the archfiends are doing it on an infinitely larger scale).

You don't have to assume it. Fiendish Codex I states explicitly that they can manipulate their domains as well as lesser deities can. According to the SRD, this includes:

"A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible."
_Nova_
06-13-07, 02:02 PM Because of underlying game mechanics, 3e assumes that the astral touches those deeper layers.

At first I thought the same but according to the FC1 :

...to Pazunia, the first layer of the Abyss (so designated because it is the only layer coterminous with the Astral plane

found this entry on page 106

according to the FC1, all demon lords and princes can use astral projection at will so I guess that would be their first choice.

BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes???????

I dont really see them taking the portal to Plague Mort and then asking for a bus ticket...

Im kinda lost here guys
_Nova_
06-13-07, 02:05 PM I was thinking about the power of a greater demon lords or princes...about shaping their layer and realms like a Deity like it is mentionned in this topic. Does that mean that, for a while, a lord or prince can make his layer coterminous with the Astral plane?
Shemeska the Marauder
06-13-07, 06:44 PM At first I thought the same but according to the FC1 :

...to Pazunia, the first layer of the Abyss (so designated because it is the only layer coterminous with the Astral plane

Once again FC:I makes me realize just how well written and well researched it was. I must have missed that line, but it's nice to see it correct the MotP's error of omission.

BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes???????

They form aspects/avatars and then use gate, planeshift, or natural portals to send those slivers of themselves elsewhere, among presumably other less conventional means.
ripvanwormer
06-13-07, 07:10 PM BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes? [I cut out some of the eighteen zillion question marks]

Demogorgon has a fortress in Pazunia, too (mentioned in the most recent Dragon). So does Malcanthet. Most greater demon lords do.

They go to those fortresses when they need to astrally project.
_Nova_
06-13-07, 07:21 PM thx a lot for the info!

I assume the fortress of Demogorgon (on Pazunia) must be close to the pit leading to the brine flats

that would make sense

oh and I have another question

whats the big difference between an aspect and an avatar?

is the avatar more powerful than the aspect?
Pitiless_Interfector
06-14-07, 12:00 AM thx a lot for the info!

I assume the fortress of Demogorgon (on Pazunia) must be close to the pit leading to the brine flats

that would make sense

oh and I have another question

whats the big difference between an aspect and an avatar?

is the avatar more powerful than the aspect?

Well, the terms have been kind of mixed around lately, but I personally believe that yes, the avatar is more powerful than an aspect . Of course, with the incongruities between FC1 and FC2, the issue has become about as messed up as the [I]genesis (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=866240) spell, since they finally had the sense to make the stats in the back of the book Aspects, but then made the aspects one-of-a-kind deals. It's really all the same crap. Just do what taste-FEels right. Feels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_Nova_ 06-11-07, 03:23 PM	Hello there, new to this community but not new to DnD :cool: Im about to master a game "planes oriented" and particulary about the abyss I'll be using the book of vile darkness and FC1, but there is one thing thats isnt clear to me. If a demon lord, lets say, for instance, Demogorgon, wants to travel to the demi-plane Im creating, will he use to Iron fortress in Pazunia and leave his real body there? Or will he use astral projection so he will be bound to his silver cord all the time he travels in my demi-plane? or use plane shift? is there a "rule" about that or is it entirely left to my discretion? you guys have any suggestion? thx
aushlo 06-11-07, 07:49 PM	He'd probably create an Aspect, a fraction of his essence, and send it. It could easily be anywhere powerwise between the Web Enhancement Aspect of Demogorgon and the BoVD Demogorgon. The way I understand Aspects, they're more or less a seperate entity, but one that can be reabsorbed in some fashion. I don't know if any official rules for such things are available though.
_Nova_ 06-12-07, 02:44 PM	Hello I should have mentionned in my first post that I was talking about the demon lords THEMSELVES, not an aspect of them. You see, in my game the "main frame" is that some demon lords are trying to gain control of the demiplane I invented trough cults, so one day the demoplane itself would "fall" into the layer of the Abyss the demon lord controls, a bit like the way Lolth stole worlds away and ascended to god-hood but in my game, the demon lord HIMSELF (not an aspect) must come on the demiplane and put the final crest of victory if he wants to bring back the world with him (I assume he would need one hell of a bag of holding with him :P ) I read this entry last night in FC1 : HOTA, its about Pazunia and the iron fortresses - On the edge of the great pits crouch massive iron fortresses, relics of the obyriths now inhabited by mighty tanar'ric lords who have not yet mustered the power to bend an entire layer to their wills. These warlike, scheming lords use special chambers within the fortresses to project themselves through the Astral plane and onto the Material worlds... that leads me to a few questions : 1. Is the astral plane connected to EVERY single layer of the abyss, or only with Pazunia? 2. If I read the entry correctly, the demon lords using the iron fortresses to travel are NOT master of an entire layer, therefore they are minor demon lords?
Shemeska the Marauder 06-12-07, 06:04 PM	that leads me to a few questions : 1. Is the astral plane connected to EVERY single layer of the abyss, or only with Pazunia? Because of underlying game mechanics, 3e assumes that the astral touches those deeper layers. This is largely the result of unintended rules changes rather than being intentional to have the astral touch pretty much everywhere. Prior to 3e, the Astral only touched the first layer of every outer plane, making portals and planar pathways much more important because you couldn't simply planeshift to get everything. However there are exceptions, though they aren't stated nearly enough. You could assume perhaps that many Abyssal lords have the power to restrict simple planeshifting to layers they claim by sheer force of will, much as how deities can restrict access to their divine domains (though the archfiends are doing it on an infinitely larger scale). In going with the flavor and lore, only Pazunia has a rock solid default connection to the Astral, however it's the Abyss, so the connection may be sporadic and fluid on hundreds, thousands, or millions of other layers, allowing astral conduits to pierce into deep layers and seed them with larvae, or allow for people to planeshift (or have horrible accidents while attempting to do so). 2. If I read the entry correctly, the demon lords using the iron fortresses to travel are NOT master of an entire layer, therefore they are minor demon lords? You would be correct. Pazunia is littered with minor abyssal lords who lack the power to claim a specific layer of the Abyss as their own, bend it to their will, and rework a personal and infinite stretch of reality to their whim. But 'lack the power' might be semantics so far as most beings are concerned, because it's still suicide to assume that they're weak.
ripvanwormer 06-12-07, 11:04 PM	However there are exceptions, though they aren't stated nearly enough. You could assume perhaps that many Abyssal lords have the power to restrict simple planeshifting to layers they claim by sheer force of will, much as how deities can restrict access to their divine domains (though the archfiends are doing it on an infinitely larger scale). You don't have to assume it. Fiendish Codex I states explicitly that they can manipulate their domains as well as lesser deities can. According to the SRD, this includes: "A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible."
_Nova_ 06-13-07, 02:02 PM	Because of underlying game mechanics, 3e assumes that the astral touches those deeper layers. At first I thought the same but according to the FC1 : ...to Pazunia, the first layer of the Abyss (so designated because it is the only layer coterminous with the Astral plane found this entry on page 106 according to the FC1, all demon lords and princes can use astral projection at will so I guess that would be their first choice. BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes??????? I dont really see them taking the portal to Plague Mort and then asking for a bus ticket... Im kinda lost here guys
_Nova_ 06-13-07, 02:05 PM	I was thinking about the power of a greater demon lords or princes...about shaping their layer and realms like a Deity like it is mentionned in this topic. Does that mean that, for a while, a lord or prince can make his layer coterminous with the Astral plane?
Shemeska the Marauder 06-13-07, 06:44 PM	At first I thought the same but according to the FC1 : ...to Pazunia, the first layer of the Abyss (so designated because it is the only layer coterminous with the Astral plane Once again FC:I makes me realize just how well written and well researched it was. I must have missed that line, but it's nice to see it correct the MotP's error of omission. BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes??????? They form aspects/avatars and then use gate, planeshift, or natural portals to send those slivers of themselves elsewhere, among presumably other less conventional means.
ripvanwormer 06-13-07, 07:10 PM	BUT, if the Iron fortresses are occupied by lesser demon lords and Demogorgon (or other demon lords from deeper layers) cannot use astral projection from their layers...then how do they venture to other planes? [I cut out some of the eighteen zillion question marks] Demogorgon has a fortress in Pazunia, too (mentioned in the most recent Dragon). So does Malcanthet. Most greater demon lords do. They go to those fortresses when they need to astrally project.
_Nova_ 06-13-07, 07:21 PM	thx a lot for the info! I assume the fortress of Demogorgon (on Pazunia) must be close to the pit leading to the brine flats that would make sense oh and I have another question whats the big difference between an aspect and an avatar? is the avatar more powerful than the aspect?
Pitiless_Interfector 06-14-07, 12:00 AM	thx a lot for the info! I assume the fortress of Demogorgon (on Pazunia) must be close to the pit leading to the brine flats that would make sense oh and I have another question whats the big difference between an aspect and an avatar? is the avatar more powerful than the aspect? Well, the terms have been kind of mixed around lately, but I personally believe that yes, the avatar is more powerful than an aspect . Of course, with the incongruities between FC1 and FC2, the issue has become about as messed up as the [I]genesis (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=866240) spell, since they finally had the sense to make the stats in the back of the book Aspects, but then made the aspects one-of-a-kind deals. It's really all the same crap. Just do what taste-FEels right. Feels.