Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sebastienurbanek 03-08-07, 09:24 AM	Hi Go to see on www.dndadventure.com for Demon princes and Archdevils. I've stated them from FC 1 &2 and BoVD. I wrote 2 files with good drawings (from my blood Manu) and stats CR 26 (Bel) to 63 (Asmodeus) for devils and CR 26 (juiblex) to 38 (demogorgon) for demons. Go see the files, it's free and tell me that you think about my works. Thanx IOU. (for good music see at : www.saccharinetrust.com).
Bob the Efreet 03-08-07, 02:42 PM	Hi Go to see on www.dndadventure.com for Demon princes and Archdevils. I've stated them from FC 1 &2 and BoVD. I wrote 2 files with good drawings (from my blood Manu) and stats CR 26 (Bel) to 63 (Asmodeus) for devils and CR 26 (juiblex) to 38 (demogorgon) for demons. Go see the files, it's free and tell me that you think about my works. Thanx IOU. Why is Asmodeus 33% stronger than Demogorgon?
Gray Richardson 03-08-07, 10:57 PM	Why is Asmodeus 33% stronger than Demogorgon?Asmodeus contains PrimaGuard (TM) color-safe bleach alternative which makes him 33% stronger than competing archfiends. :devil:
sebastienurbanek 03-09-07, 01:30 AM	I make Asmodeus more powerful because is like Lucifer in the Christian myths. And in the texts of FC1 & 2 ther's some differences between devils and demons: ther's no order in the Abyys and no one great ruler. Demogorgon is not the creator of the plane (see before him the obyriths that ruled and created Tanar'ris). Asmo was the most powerful soldier of the LG deities (thus a solar at max...) and like in the Bible said: "better to rule in hell than serve in the heavens". It's my vision of the whole thing but you can consider Demo more powerful: do that you want about this;)
Bob the Efreet 03-09-07, 05:14 PM	And in the texts of FC1 & 2 there's some differences between devils and demons: there's no order in the Abyss and no one great ruler. That's why Demogorgon should be stronger - he rules through sheer might alone. Asmodeus has The System backing him up - he could be a hamatula, and if the Law of Baator says he's the leader, nobody's going to do anything about it.
Romtos 03-10-07, 03:59 AM	That's why Demogorgon should be stronger - he rules through sheer might alone. Asmodeus has The System backing him up - he could be a hamatula, and if the Law of Baator says he's the leader, nobody's going to do anything about it. I'd say Asmodeus is stronger, because he stands above the hierarchy of Devils. He has to be a power which is able to fully control all nine layers, directly or not. The demonlords and -princes in the abyss just 'happen' to be stronger than other demons. Some sort of random power concentrations. It's quite logical that these are not thát much stronger than other demons. Also, if you oppose the numbers of demons against Devils, it's logical there has to be a few strong Devils to oppose the enormous number of weaker Demon leaders, in my opinion,
sebastienurbanek 03-10-07, 02:22 PM	That's why Demogorgon should be stronger - he rules through sheer might alone. Asmodeus has The System backing him up - he could be a hamatula, and if the Law of Baator says he's the leader, nobody's going to do anything about it. I'm not agree with you; it's a pure fictional mythology and if you want that Demogorgon is more powerful...do it. For the system of the devils, eh they're not humans in a civilized country; each devil want to overthrow the others to gain more power and for ruling the Hell, the ruler must be the more powerful, if not a revolution will be organise at each second. In the description of FC2 Asmo can change Hell and Demog can't change the Abyss. His title is a mockery/ the ruling hierarchy of the devils. And in your logic Graz'zt must be more powerful than Demo, because he rules 3 planes and not 1.In FC 1 the text says that the title of Prince of Demons is a self-made title with no valor in the Abyss.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 02:59 PM	Asmo was the most powerful soldier of the LG deities (thus a solar at max...) To be fair, he started out LN and served primordial LN beings before "deities" technically existed on the planes, though the legend of those events has become warped over time to include the names of various deities (which change depending on what world the myth is being told on).
sciborg2 03-10-07, 03:04 PM	To be fair, he started out LN and served primordial LN beings before "deities" technically existed on the planes, though the legend of those events has become warped over time to include the names of various deities (which change depending on what world the myth is being told on). Is this Rip's salvation of the text, or was this actually noted in the book?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 03:42 PM	Is this Rip's salvation of the text, or was this actually noted in the book? The book never names a flavor of Law, but it only stands to reason that it's LN given the history of the planes. Plus the time period was at or before the initial formation of deities from mortal faith, and at least one god mentioned in the myth, St. Cuthbert, is known as an ascended mortal which seems silly considering the age of those events. LN falling to LE around the same time others among those ranks were discovering (or being corrupted/enlightened by) LG seems most appropriate, and it meshes with other prehistories of the planes.
Bob the Efreet 03-10-07, 04:44 PM	And in your logic Graz'zt must be more powerful than Demo, because he rules 3 planes and not 1. I don't think that really follows from my logic, considering that my logic is based on the fact that Demogorgon is the most powerful creature in the Abyss. Although my logic does have a fundamental flaw involving Demo not actually ruling the entire plane...
Kain Darkwind 03-11-07, 01:10 PM	The book never names a flavor of Law, but it only stands to reason that it's LN given the history of the planes. Plus the time period was at or before the initial formation of deities from mortal faith, and at least one god mentioned in the myth, St. Cuthbert, is known as an ascended mortal which seems silly considering the age of those events. LN falling to LE around the same time others among those ranks were discovering (or being corrupted/enlightened by) LG seems most appropriate, and it meshes with other prehistories of the planes. Or just Primal Law, without the moral flavor of Good, Neutrality or Evil. Of course, I never bought Neutral {Alignments} = Pure/True {Alignments} However, the book itself says that the names of the gods are known to change throughout the telling of the myth, but the names of the devils does not. So it's not just a rip-revision, it's in the actual sourcebook.
pratputajao 03-13-07, 09:23 AM	Hi Go to see on www.dndadventure.com for Demon princes and Archdevils. I've stated them from FC 1 &2 and BoVD. I wrote 2 files with good drawings (from my blood Manu) and stats CR 26 (Bel) to 63 (Asmodeus) for devils and CR 26 (juiblex) to 38 (demogorgon) for demons. Go see the files, it's free and tell me that you think about my works. Thanx IOU. (for good music see at : www.saccharinetrust.com). Are these official stats? I mean Demogorgon 38 and Asmodeus 63? Whaaaa?? Doesnt anyone remember the original books used to stat these beings? DG was slightly superior to Asmo in every way except in psionics ( even then DG could use 2 powers a round to Asmos 1) DG the most powerful demon is slighly more than half as powerful as his LE counterpart in the Hells... yeah that makes good sence. DG is most powerful demon in a place where status is gained through pure power and held on to with the same.. Its not so bad that its DG who is weaker its that this basically says NO demon is anywhere near the same power level as Asmodeus. Sometimes I think it is just a case of " Well Asmodeus is basically the Devil and the Devil is Ubber kewl!!!" If this is WOTC stuff just another reason why I use Dicefreaks
pratputajao 03-13-07, 09:44 AM	Ahh I see my answer is No this is not official. In that case I have no problem with doing anything they like in their gaming group. If I can find it I will take a look at sebastienurbanek stats. Eitherway WOTC stats for archfiends make no scence so I say Everybody-- MAKE YOUR OWN!
ArcTan 03-16-07, 04:04 AM	Or just Primal Law, without the moral flavor of Good, Neutrality or Evil. Of course, I never bought Neutral {Alignments} = Pure/True {Alignments} Whether you bought it or not, that's what it says. It doesn't really have to be one or the other. A Lawful human is just a person whose Lawful plus Chaotic deeds add up to a net Lawful bias, but who nonetheless commits hundreds of both Lawful and Chaotic thoughts and acts every day. By contrast, a Lawful Outsider literally never commits Chaotic acts, or if he does they're major events for him, that you could count the number of on two hands over thousands of years. Similarly, an NG mortal will just be someone who commits tons of Lawful Good and Chaotic Good acts all the time (not to mention Evil acts) but who balances out to about the same number of Lawful and Chaotic acts. An NG Outsider will commit *only* Good acts, and show no tendency toward Law or Chaos at all. Note that I didn't say that he'd only commit acts that weren't Lawful or Chaotic, because I don't think that's really possible. But he wouldn't be aware at all or care at all whether they were Lawful or Chaotic. I consider the idea of "Pure Evil" to be an unnecessary addition and also dislike the implication that it's possible to ever do something that's *just* Evil that doesn't also have ethical implications -- I think that's just as difficult as an LN creature doing things that are *just* Lawful with no Good or Evil effects. Modrons going on the Modron March will kill millions of creatures as they do so. Some of those creatures will be conquerors or oppressors. The *effect* of these actions is Good. Some of those creatures will be innocents. The *effect* of these actions is Evil. The modrons themselves, however, don't care because they have no sense for Good or Evil, so the moral effects of their actions don't matter for them, only the fact that they're obeying Law by marching. Hence LN.
Kain Darkwind 03-17-07, 10:54 PM	Whether you bought it or not, that's what it says. It doesn't really have to be one or the other. A Lawful human is just a person whose Lawful plus Chaotic deeds add up to a net Lawful bias, but who nonetheless commits hundreds of both Lawful and Chaotic thoughts and acts every day. By contrast, a Lawful Outsider literally never commits Chaotic acts, or if he does they're major events for him, that you could count the number of on two hands over thousands of years. Similarly, an NG mortal will just be someone who commits tons of Lawful Good and Chaotic Good acts all the time (not to mention Evil acts) but who balances out to about the same number of Lawful and Chaotic acts. An NG Outsider will commit *only* Good acts, and show no tendency toward Law or Chaos at all. Note that I didn't say that he'd only commit acts that weren't Lawful or Chaotic, because I don't think that's really possible. But he wouldn't be aware at all or care at all whether they were Lawful or Chaotic. I consider the idea of "Pure Evil" to be an unnecessary addition and also dislike the implication that it's possible to ever do something that's *just* Evil that doesn't also have ethical implications -- I think that's just as difficult as an LN creature doing things that are *just* Lawful with no Good or Evil effects. Modrons going on the Modron March will kill millions of creatures as they do so. Some of those creatures will be conquerors or oppressors. The *effect* of these actions is Good. Some of those creatures will be innocents. The *effect* of these actions is Evil. The modrons themselves, however, don't care because they have no sense for Good or Evil, so the moral effects of their actions don't matter for them, only the fact that they're obeying Law by marching. Hence LN. I don't find that description of alignment to be adequete. In my mind, (and I do understand that this is opinion) alignment works better as the motivation and mechanations of one's conscience and mind. To a lawful evil person, their 'gut feeling' is going to suggest a lawful evil course of action. They don't have to take that course of action, but who can honestly deny their instincts forever? Alignment isn't the sum of your actions, your actions are the sum of your alignment and your free will's choices. Neutrality isn't just the absence of the two other alignments. It is a separate middle road, just as unique as Good/Evil or Law/Chaos. While I agree that a Neutral Good being can act Lawfully or Chaoticly, I submit that they can also act, and will typically act, Neutrally. Not Pure Good, Neutral Good. I'd also challenge you to show me where Neutral Alignment is defined (not merely called) as Pure Alignment. There are nine alignments, not just a mix of 4.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-07, 12:12 AM	Neutrality isn't just the absence of the two other alignments. It can be. Within one of the pure alignments, there are multiple interpretations of that alignment. Take NE for instance. The yugoloths after their racial purge by the General of Gehenna are the posterchildren of NE as an absence of Chaos and Law, whereas the group of mad Baernaloths known collectively as The Demented embody an interpretation of NE that embraces the paradoxical extremes of the entire spectrum of Evil, simultaneously seeking the wild destruction of CE and the rigid tyranny of LE, combined and coexisting as NE. Another example is the difference in True Neutrality as embodied by the Rilmani versus that embodied by their earlier predecessors the Kamarel. The Rilmani explicitely embody a form of TN that exists as a balance of the other alignments at once, while the Kamarel embodied a form of TN that was a rejection and absence of the other alignments.
Kain Darkwind 03-18-07, 12:24 AM	It can be. Within one of the pure alignments, there are multiple interpretations of that alignment. Take NE for instance. The yugoloths after their racial purge by the General of Gehenna are the posterchildren of NE as an absence of Chaos and Law, whereas the group of mad Baernaloths known collectively as The Demented embody an interpretation of NE that embraces the paradoxical extremes of the entire spectrum of Evil, simultaneously seeking the wild destruction of CE and the rigid tyranny of LE, combined and coexisting as NE. Another example is the difference in True Neutrality as embodied by the Rilmani versus that embodied by their earlier predecessors the Kamarel. The Rilmani explicitely embody a form of TN that exists as a balance of the other alignments at once, while the Kamarel embodied a form of TN that was a rejection and absence of the other alignments. Your explanation (in regards to what I feel to be a false term of 'pure') relies on the idea that the alignments are ultimately expressions of 4 alignments, mixtures of Chaos, Law, Good and Evil. I don't really see it that way. I see each of the 9 alignments as separate and unique, even if related and holding similarities with each other. However, I do agree with you that Neutrality can be an absence or presence of opposing alignments. I simply do not believe that it must be such, and I think Neutrality has its own values that have been historically poorly defined.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-07, 12:31 AM	Your explanation (in regards to what I feel to be a false term of 'pure') relies on the idea that the alignments are ultimately expressions of 4 alignments, mixtures of Chaos, Law, Good and Evil. I don't really see it that way. I see each of the 9 alignments as separate and unique, even if related and holding similarities with each other. The planes appear to have formed from an initial 4 (or 5 counting TN) alignments, and the other mixed alignments appeared at various points afterwards. They emerged as the others mixed, and their natives only appeared as a result of deliberate creation by the earlier 'pure' alignment outsiders, or the corruption/enlightenment of some of them. In that light at least, the non-"pure" alignments are a result of the mixture of the others, an admixture or compromise between alignments in some fractional balance. However, I do agree with you that Neutrality can be an absence or presence of opposing alignments. *shrug* The Rilmani and Kamarel were described as embodying such in 'Tales from the Infinite Staircase'. But I wouldn't suggest that other interpretations of the alignment might exist, both on the Outlands or among mortals. Mortals don't fit into such discrete and pure divisions as the outsiders do.
Kain Darkwind 03-18-07, 12:42 AM	The planes appear to have formed from an initial 4 (or 5 counting TN) alignments, and the other mixed alignments appeared at various points afterwards. They emerged as the others mixed, and their natives only appeared as a result of deliberate creation by the earlier 'pure' alignment outsiders, or the corruption/enlightenment of some of them. In that light at least, the non-"pure" alignments are a result of the mixture of the others, an admixture or compromise between alignments in some fractional balance. Not at all. While the planes do indeed appear to have formed as you describe them, the alignment exemplars do not. There isn't an Arcadian, a Celestian and a Bytopian, there is just an Archon. Modron, Devil, Yugoloth, Demon, Slaad, Eladrin, Guardinal and Rilmani. Which is nice and ambiguous. The planes support your idea of 4 alignments mixed, and the exemplars support my idea of a separate 9.
ripvanwormer 03-18-07, 10:28 PM	Not at all. While the planes do indeed appear to have formed as you describe them, the alignment exemplars do not. Actually, the planar races are the primary example of what Shemmy was talking about. As described in the Fiendish Codex series, obyriths are pure Chaos corrupted to Evil and devils are pure Law corrupted to Evil. Or, alternatively, both races are the creations of Neutral Evil beings tainted by Chaos and Law. The origins of the other two "mixed-alignment" races, the archons and eladrins, is less clear, but there's no reason to think they're any different. There isn't an Arcadian, a Celestian and a Bytopian, there is just an Archon. You seem to be using this statement to show that the evolution of planar races isn't synonymous with the evolution of the planes. While this is true, it's not relevant to the argument at hand, since no one ever claimed those things were synonymous, and that it makes no difference to the argument whether they are or not. There actually are native Arcadian outsider races (formians and buseni), and there's no good reason to discount them in enumerating races of outsiders. There are other examples of outsider races associated with the extremely mixed planes, for example bariaurs, gehreleths, barghests, and vaporighus. The existence of a unique Bytopian race is more doubtful - possibly air sentinels might qualify (though they're more likely natives of the Elemental Plane of Air), or baku (insofar as their racial graveyard is in Bytopia). While you can choose nine races and present them as "exemplars," this is an arbitrary, fan-created term for a very arbitrary, fan-created distinction. From an objective standpoint, the outer planes are not that neat. I could just as easily list only modrons, slaadi, guardinals, and yugoloths as the "exemplar races" and claim this as "support" for the idea that there are only four primary alignments. This would be just as arbitrary and misleading as your list of nine. A more objective list would be significantly longer, but it wouldn't support the idea that the number nine has any particular significance on the Outer Planes or in the cosmology as a whole. Sure, there are more baatezu around than barghests, but there are more tanar'ri than baatezu, so population isn't a useful criterion. Any criteria you name will be arbitrary. Ultimately, there are four basic alignments: Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil, and everything else is made from those, either with the ideal of balancing multiple alignments or forging a new path inspired by them. Is Lawful Good more than the sum of its parts? Sure, but so is Lawful Good (Lawful Neutral) and Neutral Good (Lawful Good). All are more than just their components, but at the same time they're all created from their components. Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, and Lawful Evil are not privileged in this regard. An argument could be made that there are 17 separate and unique alignments, but there is no priority for the number 9.