Diefic Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diefic Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lord_zack
07-25-07, 05:57 PM As you may know the stats in Dietes and Demigods are subpar, and no not use the rules for epic characters presented in the Epic Level Handbook, or the many other rulebooks that have come out now. So how'd you do it? I'll post some of my ideas soon.
The Serge7
07-25-07, 08:04 PM Like this: Dicefreaks' Deity Directory (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=3500).
Shemeska the Marauder
07-25-07, 08:24 PM Simple. I don't give gods stats except for avatars (and only if I'm forced into it).

I can count on two fingers the times that I've ever seen a deity or a deific avatar used in a combat situation in my campaigns or any that I've played in or witnessed.
RealSorceror
07-26-07, 09:45 AM We had an apocolyptic, Ragnorak-style event occur in our world. The Greyhwak pantheon is dead and has been replaced by ascended mortals, most of whom are player characters. These characters all have prestige classes and epic equipement, and many of them are quite optimized. They also have no outsider HD.
The only thing that can take on one of our dieties and win is another deity, and thats really the way it should be.
lord_zack
07-26-07, 12:41 PM Like this: Dicefreaks' Deity Directory (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=3500).

Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels.

I've been reading you're groups two threads, and I think they're very interesting. I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties.

Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well.
Witch
07-26-07, 01:08 PM Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels.
Those stats were, if I got this correctly, created before the Beguiler and Duskblade were developed. You may have a point on them. The artificer on the other hand seems to be more of an Eberron thing to me.
I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties.
How do you mean exactly? That is, beyond the link Serge gave you and our rules on creating deific statistics (if you've read that thread too).

Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well.
I think aspects should be something kept away from deities and retained for archfiends, archcelestials and similar beings.
lord_zack
07-26-07, 01:41 PM I was refering to RealSorceror's group, didn't I say that? I meant to.
Witch
07-26-07, 01:50 PM No - I assumed you meant Serge's, as he's the one you were quoting :) But okay.
lord_zack
07-26-07, 01:58 PM I should've made it more clear. But I disagree with you on the point of only powerful outsiders having Aspects. Especially due to the fact that they can have multiple kinds of Aspects devoted to different parts of they're porfolios, like how Lolth has the Envoy and Hammer Aspects.
Witch
07-26-07, 02:05 PM Gods have proxies and avatars to deal with such things - I don't see why they should get aspects as well.
The Serge7
07-26-07, 02:29 PM From what I can tell, the motivation for divine aspects is purely metagame: it allows core PCs (< 21 level) to fight/meaningfully interact with "gods." It's all but impossible for non-epic PCs to have such interaction with all but the weakest lesser god avatars and even some demigods.
RealSorceror
07-26-07, 02:43 PM From what I can tell, the motivation for divine aspects is purely metagame: it allows core PCs (< 21 level) to fight/meaningfully interact with "gods." It's all but impossible for non-epic PCs to have such interaction with all but the weakest lesser god avatars and even some demigods.
You're right in that non-epics really never get the chance (or stand a chance) to fight gods, and aspects do kinda serve that purpose.

However, I don't see why a low level PC couldn't still meet or speak with a deity. It happens all the time in our games, as the gods can usually be found on the material plane. It really depends on how you handle the gods, and if you treat them as more distant or more involved.
Salla
07-26-07, 03:39 PM I don't give gods stats, since I use the noninterventionist model from Eberron (even when not running Eberron). In short, gods don't need stats because they don't do anything, and might not even exist.
ElberethSilverleaf
07-26-07, 11:53 PM Where does it say that Corellon was/is the first duskblade?
Thanael
07-27-07, 02:44 AM Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels.

I'd definately give Moradin Battlesmith from Races of Stone But as Witch said those classes mostly predate the creation of the dicefreaks gods builds...

BTW there's also a thread for god builds here on WotC: Deity Stats - Avatars and all levels of Deities (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197789), though they build with 20 outsider HD. I prefer the dicefreaks method myself.
RealSorceror
07-27-07, 02:17 PM I was refering to RealSorceror's group, didn't I say that? I meant to.
Oh, sorry, I missed your post. :)
Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels.

I've been reading you're groups two threads, and I think they're very interesting. I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties.

Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well.
As for improving the core dieties, a quick and dirty way would be to drop the twenty levels of Outsider (which is all but useless and just makes them more generic) and replace it with twenty class levels. Go for prestige classes that improve their current abilities.
Also, switch out a few salient abilities for more optimized ones. Fluff is nice sometimes, but abilities like Divine Weapon Focus are usually a waste of time, and only hurt the deity in combat.

If you're feeling ambitious, I'd completely scrap their current stats, and completely rebuild them. I like you're suggestions for alternate classes. Corellon as a Duskblade/ Arcane Archer would be a beast.

Also, I highly suggest revamping their backstories and general feel. Many of the Greyhawk gods have the potential to be cool and interesting, but are usually gimped by generic and vague histories and acheivements. The Faerun pantheon is an excellent example of how to make deities interesting and real. I can feel proud to be a paladin of Helm, but Pelor? Not so much. Gandalf is an old man, and is awesome. Pelor is just an old man. Give them some flavor, a well defined roll. Make their influence in the world more obvious.

Am I ranting? Sorry, hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. :)
lord_zack
07-27-07, 03:30 PM I'd definately give Moradin Battlesmith from Races of Stone But as Witch said those classes mostly predate the creation of the dicefreaks gods builds...

BTW there's also a thread for god builds here on WotC: Deity Stats - Avatars and all levels of Deities (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197789), though they build with 20 outsider HD. I prefer the dicefreaks method myself.

Yeah I've seen that thread. This is more of a brainstorming/discussion thread.

What's Battlesmith? I've seen Races of Stone, but I don't have it and I don't remember that class.
ElberethSilverleaf
07-27-07, 09:32 PM Sorry, maybe I phrased my question the wrong way. What WoTC sourcebook lists Corellon as having levels in Duskblade?
Salla
07-27-07, 09:34 PM Sorry, maybe I phrased my question the wrong way. What WoTC sourcebook lists Corellon as having levels in Duskblade?

None, because the only stats he's had printed were in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods. It's entirely possible that a vague reference to such is in the Duskblade class fluff in the PHB2, however.
lord_zack
07-28-07, 02:56 PM They said that Corellon Latherian taught the elves the way of the Duskblade. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he's actually a Duskblade, but it makes sense.
Mirtek
07-29-07, 12:20 PM They said that Corellon Latherian taught the elves the way of the Duskblade. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he's actually a Duskblade, but it makes sense.
Since each new supplement tends to ruthlessly push in it's own new theories and "ancient" lore without regard to previous canon, one would never be finished with statting a deity. Corellon may have been the first bladesinger, but the duskblade is new stuff without a ancestral seat in D&D lore.
Thanael
07-31-07, 11:14 AM Also, I highly suggest revamping their backstories and general feel. Many of the Greyhawk gods have the potential to be cool and interesting, but are usually gimped by generic and vague histories and acheivements. The Faerun pantheon is an excellent example of how to make deities interesting and real. I can feel proud to be a paladin of Helm, but Pelor? Not so much. Gandalf is an old man, and is awesome. Pelor is just an old man. Give them some flavor, a well defined roll. Make their influence in the world more obvious.

Am I ranting? Sorry, hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. :)

The Core gods may be generic and vague, but remember they are only the diluted versions of the Greyhawk gods. Granted there's not as much material on them as on the FR gods but Greyhawk gods do have a rich history. You just have to search for it...

This site (http://hometown.aol.com/dmwog/) has some material from FtA and some hard to find articles on Greyhawk gods from polyhedron magazine. The Greyhawk Compendium (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/5037/toc2.htm) also has some great info (and a very nice layout!)

The old Greyhawk Adventures hardcover has some info on some of the gods. There are also some articles in old (1E, 2E) Dragon magazines that contain a lot of interesting background info on the Greyhawk gods.
lord_zack
07-31-07, 01:18 PM So far I'm thinking of giving Corellon Latherian Duskblade, Bladesinger and Arcane Archer levels, Boccob Wizard, Arch Mage, Loremaster and Divine Oracle levels, Nerull Cleric, Necromancer, True Necromancer and Assasin levels. Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak are both getting the Trapsmith PrC from Dungeonscape, but I'm not sure what else.

I'm considering getting Tome of Battle, so any advice in that area would be appreciated, such as what schools the dietes would be skilled in, classes, ect.
RealSorceror
07-31-07, 03:19 PM So far I'm thinking of giving Corellon Latherian Duskblade, Bladesinger and Arcane Archer levels, Boccob Wizard, Arch Mage, Loremaster and Divine Oracle levels, Nerull Cleric, Necromancer, True Necromancer and Assasin levels. Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak are both getting the Trapsmith PrC from Dungeonscape, but I'm not sure what else.

I'm considering getting Tome of Battle, so any advice in that area would be appreciated, such as what schools the dietes would be skilled in, classes, ect.
Thanks for the links above.

As for Kurtumak, the Dungeon Delver prc might not be a bad idea. For his base class, I think Scout and/or Ranger (obviously with Gnome as a Favored Enemy) would fit the bill, especially if you grab that feat that lets Scout and Ranger stack for certian benefits.

Garl has always struck me as the scoundrel type, so I'm thinking Beguiler. Its like a Rogue, but you don't get all that blood on your new shoes. Plus, you get all the Illusion spells that Gnomes love so much.

I like the Nerull build, but instead of Assassin, he should be a Black Flame Zealot from Complete Divine.

For the ToB (btw, Tome of Battle, as well as Tome of Magic, both kick ass and take names), I have a few ideas.
Erythnul is definitely Tiger Claw school. Tiger Claw fits any vicious or bestial fighter.
Moradin is Stone Dragon school. There is actually a Stone Dragon prc for Dwarves.
Heironeous could be either White Raven or Devoted Spirit.
Kord could use either Stone Dragon or Shining Sun. Both schools have some interesting manuevers for grapplers.
Desert Wind has a lot of fire based attacks that fit any fire or magic deity.
Shadow Hand is the obvious choice for any stealth based deity.
Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are both meant for fighters, although no one in the Greyhawk pantheon really comes to mind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lord_zack 07-25-07, 05:57 PM	As you may know the stats in Dietes and Demigods are subpar, and no not use the rules for epic characters presented in the Epic Level Handbook, or the many other rulebooks that have come out now. So how'd you do it? I'll post some of my ideas soon.
The Serge7 07-25-07, 08:04 PM	Like this: Dicefreaks' Deity Directory (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=3500).
Shemeska the Marauder 07-25-07, 08:24 PM	Simple. I don't give gods stats except for avatars (and only if I'm forced into it). I can count on two fingers the times that I've ever seen a deity or a deific avatar used in a combat situation in my campaigns or any that I've played in or witnessed.
RealSorceror 07-26-07, 09:45 AM	We had an apocolyptic, Ragnorak-style event occur in our world. The Greyhwak pantheon is dead and has been replaced by ascended mortals, most of whom are player characters. These characters all have prestige classes and epic equipement, and many of them are quite optimized. They also have no outsider HD. The only thing that can take on one of our dieties and win is another deity, and thats really the way it should be.
lord_zack 07-26-07, 12:41 PM	Like this: Dicefreaks' Deity Directory (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=3500). Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels. I've been reading you're groups two threads, and I think they're very interesting. I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties. Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well.
Witch 07-26-07, 01:08 PM	Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels. Those stats were, if I got this correctly, created before the Beguiler and Duskblade were developed. You may have a point on them. The artificer on the other hand seems to be more of an Eberron thing to me. I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties. How do you mean exactly? That is, beyond the link Serge gave you and our rules on creating deific statistics (if you've read that thread too). Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well. I think aspects should be something kept away from deities and retained for archfiends, archcelestials and similar beings.
lord_zack 07-26-07, 01:41 PM	I was refering to RealSorceror's group, didn't I say that? I meant to.
Witch 07-26-07, 01:50 PM	No - I assumed you meant Serge's, as he's the one you were quoting :) But okay.
lord_zack 07-26-07, 01:58 PM	I should've made it more clear. But I disagree with you on the point of only powerful outsiders having Aspects. Especially due to the fact that they can have multiple kinds of Aspects devoted to different parts of they're porfolios, like how Lolth has the Envoy and Hammer Aspects.
Witch 07-26-07, 02:05 PM	Gods have proxies and avatars to deal with such things - I don't see why they should get aspects as well.
The Serge7 07-26-07, 02:29 PM	From what I can tell, the motivation for divine aspects is purely metagame: it allows core PCs (< 21 level) to fight/meaningfully interact with "gods." It's all but impossible for non-epic PCs to have such interaction with all but the weakest lesser god avatars and even some demigods.
RealSorceror 07-26-07, 02:43 PM	From what I can tell, the motivation for divine aspects is purely metagame: it allows core PCs (< 21 level) to fight/meaningfully interact with "gods." It's all but impossible for non-epic PCs to have such interaction with all but the weakest lesser god avatars and even some demigods. You're right in that non-epics really never get the chance (or stand a chance) to fight gods, and aspects do kinda serve that purpose. However, I don't see why a low level PC couldn't still meet or speak with a deity. It happens all the time in our games, as the gods can usually be found on the material plane. It really depends on how you handle the gods, and if you treat them as more distant or more involved.
Salla 07-26-07, 03:39 PM	I don't give gods stats, since I use the noninterventionist model from Eberron (even when not running Eberron). In short, gods don't need stats because they don't do anything, and might not even exist.
ElberethSilverleaf 07-26-07, 11:53 PM	Where does it say that Corellon was/is the first duskblade?
Thanael 07-27-07, 02:44 AM	Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels. I'd definately give Moradin Battlesmith from Races of Stone But as Witch said those classes mostly predate the creation of the dicefreaks gods builds... BTW there's also a thread for god builds here on WotC: Deity Stats - Avatars and all levels of Deities (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197789), though they build with 20 outsider HD. I prefer the dicefreaks method myself.
RealSorceror 07-27-07, 02:17 PM	I was refering to RealSorceror's group, didn't I say that? I meant to. Oh, sorry, I missed your post. :) Interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the stuff in there though. For instance I'd give Corellon Latherian Duskblade levels rather than fighter levels since he was the first Duskblade. I'd also give Moradin Artificer levels. I'd also give Lolth Beguiler levels. I've been reading you're groups two threads, and I think they're very interesting. I'd like to see you're (you're entire group's) thoughts on how to improve the core and other dieties. Also if any one wants to stat up diefic aspects I'd like to see those to. Maybe I'll give it a try as well. As for improving the core dieties, a quick and dirty way would be to drop the twenty levels of Outsider (which is all but useless and just makes them more generic) and replace it with twenty class levels. Go for prestige classes that improve their current abilities. Also, switch out a few salient abilities for more optimized ones. Fluff is nice sometimes, but abilities like Divine Weapon Focus are usually a waste of time, and only hurt the deity in combat. If you're feeling ambitious, I'd completely scrap their current stats, and completely rebuild them. I like you're suggestions for alternate classes. Corellon as a Duskblade/ Arcane Archer would be a beast. Also, I highly suggest revamping their backstories and general feel. Many of the Greyhawk gods have the potential to be cool and interesting, but are usually gimped by generic and vague histories and acheivements. The Faerun pantheon is an excellent example of how to make deities interesting and real. I can feel proud to be a paladin of Helm, but Pelor? Not so much. Gandalf is an old man, and is awesome. Pelor is just an old man. Give them some flavor, a well defined roll. Make their influence in the world more obvious. Am I ranting? Sorry, hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. :)
lord_zack 07-27-07, 03:30 PM	I'd definately give Moradin Battlesmith from Races of Stone But as Witch said those classes mostly predate the creation of the dicefreaks gods builds... BTW there's also a thread for god builds here on WotC: Deity Stats - Avatars and all levels of Deities (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=197789), though they build with 20 outsider HD. I prefer the dicefreaks method myself. Yeah I've seen that thread. This is more of a brainstorming/discussion thread. What's Battlesmith? I've seen Races of Stone, but I don't have it and I don't remember that class.
ElberethSilverleaf 07-27-07, 09:32 PM	Sorry, maybe I phrased my question the wrong way. What WoTC sourcebook lists Corellon as having levels in Duskblade?
Salla 07-27-07, 09:34 PM	Sorry, maybe I phrased my question the wrong way. What WoTC sourcebook lists Corellon as having levels in Duskblade? None, because the only stats he's had printed were in the 3.0 Deities and Demigods. It's entirely possible that a vague reference to such is in the Duskblade class fluff in the PHB2, however.
lord_zack 07-28-07, 02:56 PM	They said that Corellon Latherian taught the elves the way of the Duskblade. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he's actually a Duskblade, but it makes sense.
Mirtek 07-29-07, 12:20 PM	They said that Corellon Latherian taught the elves the way of the Duskblade. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he's actually a Duskblade, but it makes sense. Since each new supplement tends to ruthlessly push in it's own new theories and "ancient" lore without regard to previous canon, one would never be finished with statting a deity. Corellon may have been the first bladesinger, but the duskblade is new stuff without a ancestral seat in D&D lore.
Thanael 07-31-07, 11:14 AM	Also, I highly suggest revamping their backstories and general feel. Many of the Greyhawk gods have the potential to be cool and interesting, but are usually gimped by generic and vague histories and acheivements. The Faerun pantheon is an excellent example of how to make deities interesting and real. I can feel proud to be a paladin of Helm, but Pelor? Not so much. Gandalf is an old man, and is awesome. Pelor is just an old man. Give them some flavor, a well defined roll. Make their influence in the world more obvious. Am I ranting? Sorry, hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. :) The Core gods may be generic and vague, but remember they are only the diluted versions of the Greyhawk gods. Granted there's not as much material on them as on the FR gods but Greyhawk gods do have a rich history. You just have to search for it... This site (http://hometown.aol.com/dmwog/) has some material from FtA and some hard to find articles on Greyhawk gods from polyhedron magazine. The Greyhawk Compendium (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/5037/toc2.htm) also has some great info (and a very nice layout!) The old Greyhawk Adventures hardcover has some info on some of the gods. There are also some articles in old (1E, 2E) Dragon magazines that contain a lot of interesting background info on the Greyhawk gods.
lord_zack 07-31-07, 01:18 PM	So far I'm thinking of giving Corellon Latherian Duskblade, Bladesinger and Arcane Archer levels, Boccob Wizard, Arch Mage, Loremaster and Divine Oracle levels, Nerull Cleric, Necromancer, True Necromancer and Assasin levels. Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak are both getting the Trapsmith PrC from Dungeonscape, but I'm not sure what else. I'm considering getting Tome of Battle, so any advice in that area would be appreciated, such as what schools the dietes would be skilled in, classes, ect.
RealSorceror 07-31-07, 03:19 PM	So far I'm thinking of giving Corellon Latherian Duskblade, Bladesinger and Arcane Archer levels, Boccob Wizard, Arch Mage, Loremaster and Divine Oracle levels, Nerull Cleric, Necromancer, True Necromancer and Assasin levels. Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak are both getting the Trapsmith PrC from Dungeonscape, but I'm not sure what else. I'm considering getting Tome of Battle, so any advice in that area would be appreciated, such as what schools the dietes would be skilled in, classes, ect. Thanks for the links above. As for Kurtumak, the Dungeon Delver prc might not be a bad idea. For his base class, I think Scout and/or Ranger (obviously with Gnome as a Favored Enemy) would fit the bill, especially if you grab that feat that lets Scout and Ranger stack for certian benefits. Garl has always struck me as the scoundrel type, so I'm thinking Beguiler. Its like a Rogue, but you don't get all that blood on your new shoes. Plus, you get all the Illusion spells that Gnomes love so much. I like the Nerull build, but instead of Assassin, he should be a Black Flame Zealot from Complete Divine. For the ToB (btw, Tome of Battle, as well as Tome of Magic, both kick ass and take names), I have a few ideas. Erythnul is definitely Tiger Claw school. Tiger Claw fits any vicious or bestial fighter. Moradin is Stone Dragon school. There is actually a Stone Dragon prc for Dwarves. Heironeous could be either White Raven or Devoted Spirit. Kord could use either Stone Dragon or Shining Sun. Both schools have some interesting manuevers for grapplers. Desert Wind has a lot of fire based attacks that fit any fire or magic deity. Shadow Hand is the obvious choice for any stealth based deity. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are both meant for fighters, although no one in the Greyhawk pantheon really comes to mind.