Dieties' ages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dieties' ages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Korone
07-29-07, 04:20 PM You can find most informations you want about gods, but I can't seems to find when they have been created. Although I only need the age of one god, Tiamat. It's pretty evident she is really old since the chromatics dragons are coming from her, although, like any living thing, one day she has been created so they could have stated that somewhere. I do not want to put a random number on her age.

Or is it hopeless and Tiamat's age has never been mentioned anywhere ? And Bahamut ?
Kihon
07-29-07, 07:39 PM I believe the 'Draconomicon' (spelled wrong I'm sure) puts forth a belief system that all dragons came from Io (again I don't have the book at hand, so forgive me if I have it spelled wrong). The first dragon god spawned the first race of other dragons (like the epic ones, platinum one, tiamat, other unique ones) and from them came other types then. It happened back in time, towards the beginning of creation, at the time that the planes were being formed (or shortly there after), long before recorded 'time' as a mortal would conceive of it.
El_Machinae
07-29-07, 07:45 PM To make it a bit easier, remember that some of the gods are ascended mortals. Cuthbert, Vecna.

Nerull was around when Tharizdun was imprisoned.
Korone
07-29-07, 08:40 PM @Kihon; It is not only a beleif from the Draconomicon (nope, you had it spelled good), it is fact that Ao created Bahamut and Tiamat and then these two created the metallic and the chromatics dragons. But what the dragons believe... that's their stuff.

@El Machinae; Yeah, although it is not the case for Tiamat and Bahamut. And especially for these gods, since they were mortals, we should have an idea of their age at the very least, especially since others might remember about them or maybe about their heroic act or anything similar from when they were mortal. It's not as if they did nothing to achieve godhood.
Although my knowledge on gods isn't that advanced, who is Tharizdun ?

Although, the problem is that I have a being that is older than Tiamat and I would like to put an age on him. Plus, it can always help to build history on very large scale.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-29-07, 09:10 PM Tharzidun is a big, crazy entropic destroyer god from Greyhawk who everyone else imprisoned. The Elder Elemental Evil is an aspect of it.

The draconic creator god, Io, is as old as the multiverse itself (Possibly older). His children, I think, were created fairly early into the multiverse, as long as there have been good and evil dragons, basically. More specifically, they'd be after the Law and Chaos war that created Baator, by a couple thousand years or so.
ripvanwormer
07-29-07, 11:01 PM Nerull, Pelor, and Boccob were all evidently around when Tharizdun was imprisoned (since Pelor and Boccob were among those who helped do it), which was evidently long before the war between Law and Chaos (since the Princes of Elemental Evil are too young to remember it).

We can perhaps date the primal Law-Chaos war to a million years ago, since that's when the tanar'ri lord Turaglas first emerged from the Abyss. Demogorgon was the first tanar'ri, so Turaglas must be younger than him.

However, this all involves reconciling all sorts of different things that weren't really meant to fit together. The person who created Turaglas in Dragon #312 didn't know about the war between the obyriths and vaati, for example, since obyriths hadn't been invented yet. If they had been, perhaps Turaglas would have been an obyrith instead But probably not, since Turaglas seems to represent the mortal sin of gluttony rather than being a thing of raw primeval madness. The person who wrote the fluff on the Princes of Elemental Evil in the MMIV probably didn't know that Dungeon Magazine had pushed their origin back to the Time Before Time - the text there makes them seem much younger than the primal beings they are.

Dragons believe that Io (not Ao) is older than the multiverse itself. Is that true in your campaign? If it is, Tiamat and Bahamut may have been among the first creatures to be created in the newly formed cosmos. They might be, save only their sire Io, the oldest gods of them all, their lifespans stretching back billions of years to before the Outer Planes were even formed, older than the draedens. Races of the Dragon says they were Io's first-born.

And, of course, this begs the question of how old the multiverse actually is. Is it as old as our universe? Older still? Or is it a much younger cosmos? Our world is often implied to be part of it - if so, the planes are probably at least as old as scientists believe our universe to be.

Alternately, the dragons might be wrong. Maybe Io formed from their hopes and prayers, and they created him rather than the other way around. Io and his children might only be a few thousand years old, maybe not nearly as old as the race who worship him.

So the answer is either:

Tiamat and Bahamut are between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old (the estimated age of the universe as of 2003).

or Tiamat and Bahamut might be no older than any other gods - the earliest beings of the type presently called "gods" or "powers" were probably born about the time that mortal souls first started entering the Outer Planes, which might have been a million or so years ago (again, using Turaglas as a guide), or longer than that (if we assume Demogorgon is much older than Turaglas). Are any of the earliest gods still around? If so, Tiamat and Bahamut might possibly have been among them. Dragons are an ancient, long-lived species, after all. There might well have been godlike beings around long before the gods, beings who never depended on mortal worship, however, and it's conceivable that Io and his children were among them.
Korone
08-03-07, 09:25 AM Interesting, yet rather unexpected, I must say.
But it do help about creating the past history on large scale.
Thanks for the answer.

That Tharzidun seems interesting too, where can I find more information on him ?
Apocolypse_77
08-03-07, 02:58 PM Races of the Dragon says they were Io's first-born.

great post however there is an error. Draconomicon(i think) states that a dragon named Vorel was Io's first born, i don't have my book here but she(i think) was killed by tiamat while trying to frame bahamut and gain Io's favor.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-03-07, 06:42 PM That Tharzidun seems interesting too, where can I find more information on him ?

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Lords of Madness, Dragon #294, and his demiplanar prison is described in Dragon #353. There are other sources as well, but they're not coming immediately to mind.
ripvanwormer
08-03-07, 08:06 PM great post however there is an error. Draconomicon(i think) states that a dragon named Vorel was Io's first born, i don't have my book here but she(i think) was killed by tiamat while trying to frame bahamut and gain Io's favor.

Vorel is actually only mentioned in Races of the Dragon, but you're right. Vorel was first, and Tiamat and Bahamut were created afterwards. I was thinking it was the other way around. My bad.
ripvanwormer
08-03-07, 08:09 PM Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Lords of Madness, Dragon #294, and his demiplanar prison is described in Dragon #353. There are other sources as well, but they're not coming immediately to mind.

Complete Divine, On Hallowed Ground, Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, Monster Mythology, From the Ashes, A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, Monster Manual IV. There are other mentions here and there, but that'll do.
Thanael
08-06-07, 11:01 AM And there are of course Gygax' Gord the Rogue novels, which were published by New Infinities after Gygax left TSR. They should probably be considered an alternate universe (hi)story for Greyhawk. The Gord's Greyhawk site (http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmain.html) has tons of info about them.
El_Machinae
08-08-07, 08:54 PM And, of course, this begs the question of how old the multiverse actually is. Is it as old as our universe?

The timelines in DnD (historically) tend to think in terms of "eons", which is a timeline that Westerners used to think in (due to cultural reasons). I guess DnD timelines are now moving to much longer time periods (as knowledge of our natural history propagates in society).

Our visible universe is ~14 billion years old. But we have no idea how old our actual multiverse is (or even if we're in a multiverse)
Millennium
08-10-07, 10:39 AM For the most part, deities aren't officially given set "ages." Gods tend to think in terms of cosmic time, and the ages of the cosmos tend to be measured in millions or even billions of years. When you're used to thinking like that, one's own precise age starts to seem irrelevant. It's fairly likely that only the very youngest deities even remember exactly how old they are.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-11-07, 02:21 PM The actual age of the DnD multiverse is questionable. Recorded DnD history doesn't go much beyond a million years back, so Tiamat is probably from around that time. She's one of the old gods.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korone 07-29-07, 04:20 PM	You can find most informations you want about gods, but I can't seems to find when they have been created. Although I only need the age of one god, Tiamat. It's pretty evident she is really old since the chromatics dragons are coming from her, although, like any living thing, one day she has been created so they could have stated that somewhere. I do not want to put a random number on her age. Or is it hopeless and Tiamat's age has never been mentioned anywhere ? And Bahamut ?
Kihon 07-29-07, 07:39 PM	I believe the 'Draconomicon' (spelled wrong I'm sure) puts forth a belief system that all dragons came from Io (again I don't have the book at hand, so forgive me if I have it spelled wrong). The first dragon god spawned the first race of other dragons (like the epic ones, platinum one, tiamat, other unique ones) and from them came other types then. It happened back in time, towards the beginning of creation, at the time that the planes were being formed (or shortly there after), long before recorded 'time' as a mortal would conceive of it.
El_Machinae 07-29-07, 07:45 PM	To make it a bit easier, remember that some of the gods are ascended mortals. Cuthbert, Vecna. Nerull was around when Tharizdun was imprisoned.
Korone 07-29-07, 08:40 PM	@Kihon; It is not only a beleif from the Draconomicon (nope, you had it spelled good), it is fact that Ao created Bahamut and Tiamat and then these two created the metallic and the chromatics dragons. But what the dragons believe... that's their stuff. @El Machinae; Yeah, although it is not the case for Tiamat and Bahamut. And especially for these gods, since they were mortals, we should have an idea of their age at the very least, especially since others might remember about them or maybe about their heroic act or anything similar from when they were mortal. It's not as if they did nothing to achieve godhood. Although my knowledge on gods isn't that advanced, who is Tharizdun ? Although, the problem is that I have a being that is older than Tiamat and I would like to put an age on him. Plus, it can always help to build history on very large scale.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-29-07, 09:10 PM	Tharzidun is a big, crazy entropic destroyer god from Greyhawk who everyone else imprisoned. The Elder Elemental Evil is an aspect of it. The draconic creator god, Io, is as old as the multiverse itself (Possibly older). His children, I think, were created fairly early into the multiverse, as long as there have been good and evil dragons, basically. More specifically, they'd be after the Law and Chaos war that created Baator, by a couple thousand years or so.
ripvanwormer 07-29-07, 11:01 PM	Nerull, Pelor, and Boccob were all evidently around when Tharizdun was imprisoned (since Pelor and Boccob were among those who helped do it), which was evidently long before the war between Law and Chaos (since the Princes of Elemental Evil are too young to remember it). We can perhaps date the primal Law-Chaos war to a million years ago, since that's when the tanar'ri lord Turaglas first emerged from the Abyss. Demogorgon was the first tanar'ri, so Turaglas must be younger than him. However, this all involves reconciling all sorts of different things that weren't really meant to fit together. The person who created Turaglas in Dragon #312 didn't know about the war between the obyriths and vaati, for example, since obyriths hadn't been invented yet. If they had been, perhaps Turaglas would have been an obyrith instead But probably not, since Turaglas seems to represent the mortal sin of gluttony rather than being a thing of raw primeval madness. The person who wrote the fluff on the Princes of Elemental Evil in the MMIV probably didn't know that Dungeon Magazine had pushed their origin back to the Time Before Time - the text there makes them seem much younger than the primal beings they are. Dragons believe that Io (not Ao) is older than the multiverse itself. Is that true in your campaign? If it is, Tiamat and Bahamut may have been among the first creatures to be created in the newly formed cosmos. They might be, save only their sire Io, the oldest gods of them all, their lifespans stretching back billions of years to before the Outer Planes were even formed, older than the draedens. Races of the Dragon says they were Io's first-born. And, of course, this begs the question of how old the multiverse actually is. Is it as old as our universe? Older still? Or is it a much younger cosmos? Our world is often implied to be part of it - if so, the planes are probably at least as old as scientists believe our universe to be. Alternately, the dragons might be wrong. Maybe Io formed from their hopes and prayers, and they created him rather than the other way around. Io and his children might only be a few thousand years old, maybe not nearly as old as the race who worship him. So the answer is either: Tiamat and Bahamut are between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old (the estimated age of the universe as of 2003). or Tiamat and Bahamut might be no older than any other gods - the earliest beings of the type presently called "gods" or "powers" were probably born about the time that mortal souls first started entering the Outer Planes, which might have been a million or so years ago (again, using Turaglas as a guide), or longer than that (if we assume Demogorgon is much older than Turaglas). Are any of the earliest gods still around? If so, Tiamat and Bahamut might possibly have been among them. Dragons are an ancient, long-lived species, after all. There might well have been godlike beings around long before the gods, beings who never depended on mortal worship, however, and it's conceivable that Io and his children were among them.
Korone 08-03-07, 09:25 AM	Interesting, yet rather unexpected, I must say. But it do help about creating the past history on large scale. Thanks for the answer. That Tharzidun seems interesting too, where can I find more information on him ?
Apocolypse_77 08-03-07, 02:58 PM	Races of the Dragon says they were Io's first-born. great post however there is an error. Draconomicon(i think) states that a dragon named Vorel was Io's first born, i don't have my book here but she(i think) was killed by tiamat while trying to frame bahamut and gain Io's favor.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-03-07, 06:42 PM	That Tharzidun seems interesting too, where can I find more information on him ? Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Lords of Madness, Dragon #294, and his demiplanar prison is described in Dragon #353. There are other sources as well, but they're not coming immediately to mind.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 08:06 PM	great post however there is an error. Draconomicon(i think) states that a dragon named Vorel was Io's first born, i don't have my book here but she(i think) was killed by tiamat while trying to frame bahamut and gain Io's favor. Vorel is actually only mentioned in Races of the Dragon, but you're right. Vorel was first, and Tiamat and Bahamut were created afterwards. I was thinking it was the other way around. My bad.
ripvanwormer 08-03-07, 08:09 PM	Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Lords of Madness, Dragon #294, and his demiplanar prison is described in Dragon #353. There are other sources as well, but they're not coming immediately to mind. Complete Divine, On Hallowed Ground, Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, Monster Mythology, From the Ashes, A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, Monster Manual IV. There are other mentions here and there, but that'll do.
Thanael 08-06-07, 11:01 AM	And there are of course Gygax' Gord the Rogue novels, which were published by New Infinities after Gygax left TSR. They should probably be considered an alternate universe (hi)story for Greyhawk. The Gord's Greyhawk site (http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmain.html) has tons of info about them.
El_Machinae 08-08-07, 08:54 PM	And, of course, this begs the question of how old the multiverse actually is. Is it as old as our universe? The timelines in DnD (historically) tend to think in terms of "eons", which is a timeline that Westerners used to think in (due to cultural reasons). I guess DnD timelines are now moving to much longer time periods (as knowledge of our natural history propagates in society). Our visible universe is ~14 billion years old. But we have no idea how old our actual multiverse is (or even if we're in a multiverse)
Millennium 08-10-07, 10:39 AM	For the most part, deities aren't officially given set "ages." Gods tend to think in terms of cosmic time, and the ages of the cosmos tend to be measured in millions or even billions of years. When you're used to thinking like that, one's own precise age starts to seem irrelevant. It's fairly likely that only the very youngest deities even remember exactly how old they are.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-11-07, 02:21 PM	The actual age of the DnD multiverse is questionable. Recorded DnD history doesn't go much beyond a million years back, so Tiamat is probably from around that time. She's one of the old gods.