Do Archfiends and Archdevils grant their clerics spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Archfiends and Archdevils grant their clerics spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grug_bloodybones
03-25-08, 09:54 AM To me, this seems like a dumb question, but a co-player swears Archdevils do not grant clerics spells, but I said it doesn't make sense if they have clerics.

Can someone point me to a source that sheds light on this subject.
Thanael
03-25-08, 10:10 AM The Archdevils are not gods.

But you can still be a cleric without worshiping a real god and devote yourself to an Archdevil. See the cleric's description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) in the SRD or the PHB:
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

The Book of Vile Darkness probably has more details and - I believe - gives fitting domains for the archdevils.
sciborg3
03-25-08, 11:13 AM I think it's largely been held that planar lords can't cast spells - though several of them have worshippers. Primus does and has greater god status in Planescape, some of the other planar lords are lesser gods.

Ygorl has apparently eschewed godhood as being a god would apparently make his activities more noticeable. Perhaps gods can sense each other.

In 4E the distinction purely one of power - Asmo is now a god, though seemingly weaker (stuck in Hell which is now a finite layer as of W & M) but bear in mind 4e cosmology is for a single world not a multiverse iirc.
Kyuketsukiouji
03-25-08, 06:22 PM The Book of Vile Darkness tells us that demon lords and archdevils cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods.

So, basically, they'll help teach mortals how to be deityless clerics. Which, of course, means they can make sure their clerics take the domains they care about.
otakufan
03-27-08, 03:39 AM According to the two Fiendish Codexes, both Demon Princes and Archdevils can grant spells to Clerics. In Hordes of the Abyss, each individual Demon Prince's entry lists domains its Clerics have access to, and in Tyrants of the Nine Hells, there is a specific section devoted to devil worship that covers the same (and more) information.

Now, I do recall reading somewhere that, in the case of Demon Princes, the worshipers actually draw power (spells) from the Abyss itself, using their patron as a proxy. Whether the same applies for the Archdevils, I don't know.
sciborg3
03-27-08, 12:28 PM I think that letting planar lords grant spells to clerics makes them over the top powerful. I prefer to think that outer-planar lords represent alignment in its elemental form, whereas gods represent the connection between concepts and material. On Hallowed Ground (Planescape's god book) described them as living symbols.

Just my two coppers.
Sulacu
03-27-08, 02:40 PM The domains in the Archfiend and Archdevil listings are not domains belonging to the archfiend or archdevil itself. They do not grant spells and they do not 'have' those domains, and neither can they withhold a spell from a cleric like a deity could. That's because the real 'divine source' for the magic is not these creatures, but the entirity of the Abyss or Baator itself. The domains are listed with the fiend or devil in question simply because they represent forms of foulery and depravity that are associated with them.
Eldritch_Lord
03-27-08, 04:43 PM The domains in the Archfiend and Archdevil listings are not domains belonging to the archfiend or archdevil itself. They do not grant spells and they do not 'have' those domains, and neither can they withhold a spell from a cleric like a deity could. That's because the real 'divine source' for the magic is not these creatures, but the entirity of the Abyss or Baator itself. The domains are listed with the fiend or devil in question simply because they represent forms of foulery and depravity that are associated with them.

You could also think of it as worshiping one deity with many aspects--a cleric actually draws power directly from the Abyss, but a cleric with domains A and B would worship Grazz't to get that power, one with domains C and D would worship Orcus, etc. The demon princes and archdevils are aids to channeling divine power rather than being granters of divine power themselves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grug_bloodybones 03-25-08, 09:54 AM	To me, this seems like a dumb question, but a co-player swears Archdevils do not grant clerics spells, but I said it doesn't make sense if they have clerics. Can someone point me to a source that sheds light on this subject.
Thanael 03-25-08, 10:10 AM	The Archdevils are not gods. But you can still be a cleric without worshiping a real god and devote yourself to an Archdevil. See the cleric's description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) in the SRD or the PHB: If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies. The Book of Vile Darkness probably has more details and - I believe - gives fitting domains for the archdevils.
sciborg3 03-25-08, 11:13 AM	I think it's largely been held that planar lords can't cast spells - though several of them have worshippers. Primus does and has greater god status in Planescape, some of the other planar lords are lesser gods. Ygorl has apparently eschewed godhood as being a god would apparently make his activities more noticeable. Perhaps gods can sense each other. In 4E the distinction purely one of power - Asmo is now a god, though seemingly weaker (stuck in Hell which is now a finite layer as of W & M) but bear in mind 4e cosmology is for a single world not a multiverse iirc.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-25-08, 06:22 PM	The Book of Vile Darkness tells us that demon lords and archdevils cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods. So, basically, they'll help teach mortals how to be deityless clerics. Which, of course, means they can make sure their clerics take the domains they care about.
otakufan 03-27-08, 03:39 AM	According to the two Fiendish Codexes, both Demon Princes and Archdevils can grant spells to Clerics. In Hordes of the Abyss, each individual Demon Prince's entry lists domains its Clerics have access to, and in Tyrants of the Nine Hells, there is a specific section devoted to devil worship that covers the same (and more) information. Now, I do recall reading somewhere that, in the case of Demon Princes, the worshipers actually draw power (spells) from the Abyss itself, using their patron as a proxy. Whether the same applies for the Archdevils, I don't know.
sciborg3 03-27-08, 12:28 PM	I think that letting planar lords grant spells to clerics makes them over the top powerful. I prefer to think that outer-planar lords represent alignment in its elemental form, whereas gods represent the connection between concepts and material. On Hallowed Ground (Planescape's god book) described them as living symbols. Just my two coppers.
Sulacu 03-27-08, 02:40 PM	The domains in the Archfiend and Archdevil listings are not domains belonging to the archfiend or archdevil itself. They do not grant spells and they do not 'have' those domains, and neither can they withhold a spell from a cleric like a deity could. That's because the real 'divine source' for the magic is not these creatures, but the entirity of the Abyss or Baator itself. The domains are listed with the fiend or devil in question simply because they represent forms of foulery and depravity that are associated with them.
Eldritch_Lord 03-27-08, 04:43 PM	The domains in the Archfiend and Archdevil listings are not domains belonging to the archfiend or archdevil itself. They do not grant spells and they do not 'have' those domains, and neither can they withhold a spell from a cleric like a deity could. That's because the real 'divine source' for the magic is not these creatures, but the entirity of the Abyss or Baator itself. The domains are listed with the fiend or devil in question simply because they represent forms of foulery and depravity that are associated with them. You could also think of it as worshiping one deity with many aspects--a cleric actually draws power directly from the Abyss, but a cleric with domains A and B would worship Grazz't to get that power, one with domains C and D would worship Orcus, etc. The demon princes and archdevils are aids to channeling divine power rather than being granters of divine power themselves.