Do Deities need Word of Creation/Dark Speech Feats to speak them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Deities need Word of Creation/Dark Speech Feats to speak them? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bloodsoul
08-28-07, 08:40 AM Although Deities can understand, speak, and read all languages, considering the nature of these two languages I'm looking for some clarification...
Shemeska the Marauder
08-28-07, 08:55 AM I would say that no, they wouldn't understand those languages automatically. At the very least, they wouldn't understand either of those two languages unless it fit their alignment and/or portfolio. But more likely in my opinion, they wouldn't understand either of them automatically because the languages in question probably are older than the existance of deities (though the relative age of gods versus the cosmos in general may differ in your home game versus that of the D&D multiverse by default).
DwarfPcfan
08-28-07, 09:11 AM Given the nature of those languages I (as someone who admitedly knows less then Shemeska about the planes) would tend to disagree with her

If you ask me creatures like dieties, planar lords (primus, lords of the nine, etc) should all know the corresponding languages of their alignements.

In other words good gods, the celestial hebdonad, etc would know the words of creation

While Evil gods, the demon lords of the Abyss, etc would almost by default know the Dark Speech

The only exception I can see would be ascended beings like St Cuthbert (and even then, they'd take the time to learn it) etc.

Simply put it seems completely illogical that someone like Nerull or llmater even if they did'nt know it when they were birthed would'nt seek out the Dark Speech or the words of creation later.

Evil God should logically know the language of evil
Good gods should know the language of good.

It's completely irrelevent wether or not the language existed before the gods. What matters is that any god corresponding alignement would want to know and seek out the knowledge to speak the language of his alignement.

I mean all Nerull has to do is summon the appropriate demon, dominate him and rip the knowledge out of that pathethic little demon head.
Witch
08-28-07, 09:13 AM I would say that an evil god does not automatically know the Dark Speech, but a god of evil does. Likewise for good, chaotic and lawful gods and the equivalent of these languages.

Honestly, if Nerull can rip it out of a demon's skull in order to learn the Dark Speech (if that demon even knows how to speak it, which I'm fairly unsure about), then go ahead and have him take the feat. He has plenty of feats lying about.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-28-07, 09:33 AM Given the nature of those languages I (as someone who admitedly knows less then Shemeska about the planes) would tend to disagree with her

Actually, lemme clarify my position. I was only talking about gods knowing the languages by default. I don't have any problem with them learning it from whatever applicable source, be it an abyssal lord, guardinal paragon, baernaloth, etc.
DwarfPcfan
08-28-07, 11:44 AM Actually, lemme clarify my position. I was only talking about gods knowing the languages by default. I don't have any problem with them learning it from whatever applicable source, be it an abyssal lord, guardinal paragon, baernaloth, etc.

In that case, yes I agree with you:cool:
Bloodsoul
08-28-07, 12:49 PM I most certainly agree with the ascended deity idea; infact that makes me wonder if deities would even take penalties from speaking the languages. Mortals can know a few words, celestials/demons/devils a few phrases, but it wouldn't suprise me if deities of good/evil would understand the language inside and out, while those ascended from mortals might face the same restrictions as before.

Still, it's just one Fear for either, not a big sacrifice considering how many Feats deities generally have, anyway. ^_^
Mirtek
08-28-07, 01:31 PM I would say yes, they should automatically understand them and be able to use them. The same should be true for the archfiends, it just doesn't fit that they simply all go the feat.

It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech.

So not only need demonprinces and archdevils a feat to be able to use it at all, even with the feats they're just barely able to mutter only the slighest syllables.
Evil God should logically know the language of evil
Good gods should know the language of good.
They should also at very least know the opposite language too. It's too big a secret to keep hidden for all eternity. In the countless milenia since it's creation, the other side should long since have learned to at least understand the words. So Orcus could follow a conversation in the words of creation and understand what they're talking about, even if he finds the word loathsome and refuses to utter them himself
then go ahead and have him take the feat. He has plenty of feats lying about.
The problem is that the feat gives him no real knowledge of the language anyway. The feat gives him a simpleton's ability to after a fashion mouth a crude version of some basic words but does not enable him to speak the language.

Orcus should be able to walk up to Demogorgon and say "Hi, how are you? Still raining in Gaping Maw? You aren't still pouting about of my recent little invasion, are you?" as part of a completly normal conversation among such exemplars of evil (ignoring that they are not very likely to just have a chitchat)
Witch
08-28-07, 01:42 PM It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech.
This is indeed a problem. I'd couple the feat to Intelligence and add that more can be done the higher your intelligence.

So not only need demonprinces and archdevils a feat to be able to use it at all, even with the feats they're just barely able to mutter only the slighest syllables.
Such archfiends would receive it as a bonus feat.

They should also at very least know the opposite language too. It's too big a secret to keep hidden for all eternity.
The opposite language is one of utter good - depending on your interpretation, you may not want archfiends even being able to understand such Good. At least, I don't think they'd ever speak it.

In the countless milenia since it's creation, the other side should long since have learned to at least understand the words. So Orcus could follow a conversation in the words of creation and understand what they're talking about, even if he finds the word loathsome and refuses to utter them himself

I need to read an entire post before giving my opinion ;)

Orcus should be able to walk up to Demogorgon and say "Hi, how are you? Still raining in Gaping Maw? You aren't still pouting about of my recent little invasion, are you?" as part of a completly normal conversation among such exemplars of evil (ignoring that they are not very likely to just have a chitchat)
I agree.
Starmage21
08-28-07, 04:31 PM I would say yes, they should automatically understand them and be able to use them. The same should be true for the archfiends, it just doesn't fit that they simply all go the feat.

It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech.

The feat doesnt represent that you have a crude mastery of the speech, but rather that you can(as a mortal) speak a few words to achieve an effect without annihlating yourself with it.

The feat itself implies that immortal beings can learn the entire laguage without ever taking the feat, and have no trouble spouting off entire sentences composed of the Dark Speech or Words of Creation. The effects that can be achieved with those particular feats are small, just giving them to a particular outsider for use against your group as a fiat isnt a bad idea. I doubt every fiend(or celestial) in existance knows the language however.
Kain Darkwind
08-28-07, 05:52 PM keep in mind that using Dark Speech/Words of Creation are similar to using power words or truespeech. Just because you know the word/language doesn't mean you can use the abilities. For instance, technically someone with the Polyglot feat knows how to speak and understand Dark Speech, WoC and even the language of magic. That doesn't give him the ability to use Dark Speech or Power Word Kill at will, however.

That said, I do agree with the idea that Dark Speech and WoC should be taken to a higher level, of which the gods and archfiends and celestial paragons who know how to can make extreme use. And I agree that the baseline abilities represented by the two feats should be within the purview of those beings automatically. Without dealing them Cha damage.
Kyuketsukiouji
08-29-07, 08:03 PM I wouldn't allow anything that lets you know any language the ability to learn "magical" languages (Word of Creation, Dark Speech, Truespeech).

The possibilities for abuse are far too great otherwise.
Andyr
08-30-07, 02:56 PM I would say that deities and other planar lords don't need feats to be able to speak Words of Creation or the Dark Speech (as appropriate), but then again I also don't give them stats. ;) They simply do what they have to do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bloodsoul 08-28-07, 08:40 AM	Although Deities can understand, speak, and read all languages, considering the nature of these two languages I'm looking for some clarification...
Shemeska the Marauder 08-28-07, 08:55 AM	I would say that no, they wouldn't understand those languages automatically. At the very least, they wouldn't understand either of those two languages unless it fit their alignment and/or portfolio. But more likely in my opinion, they wouldn't understand either of them automatically because the languages in question probably are older than the existance of deities (though the relative age of gods versus the cosmos in general may differ in your home game versus that of the D&D multiverse by default).
DwarfPcfan 08-28-07, 09:11 AM	Given the nature of those languages I (as someone who admitedly knows less then Shemeska about the planes) would tend to disagree with her If you ask me creatures like dieties, planar lords (primus, lords of the nine, etc) should all know the corresponding languages of their alignements. In other words good gods, the celestial hebdonad, etc would know the words of creation While Evil gods, the demon lords of the Abyss, etc would almost by default know the Dark Speech The only exception I can see would be ascended beings like St Cuthbert (and even then, they'd take the time to learn it) etc. Simply put it seems completely illogical that someone like Nerull or llmater even if they did'nt know it when they were birthed would'nt seek out the Dark Speech or the words of creation later. Evil God should logically know the language of evil Good gods should know the language of good. It's completely irrelevent wether or not the language existed before the gods. What matters is that any god corresponding alignement would want to know and seek out the knowledge to speak the language of his alignement. I mean all Nerull has to do is summon the appropriate demon, dominate him and rip the knowledge out of that pathethic little demon head.
Witch 08-28-07, 09:13 AM	I would say that an evil god does not automatically know the Dark Speech, but a god of evil does. Likewise for good, chaotic and lawful gods and the equivalent of these languages. Honestly, if Nerull can rip it out of a demon's skull in order to learn the Dark Speech (if that demon even knows how to speak it, which I'm fairly unsure about), then go ahead and have him take the feat. He has plenty of feats lying about.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-28-07, 09:33 AM	Given the nature of those languages I (as someone who admitedly knows less then Shemeska about the planes) would tend to disagree with her Actually, lemme clarify my position. I was only talking about gods knowing the languages by default. I don't have any problem with them learning it from whatever applicable source, be it an abyssal lord, guardinal paragon, baernaloth, etc.
DwarfPcfan 08-28-07, 11:44 AM	Actually, lemme clarify my position. I was only talking about gods knowing the languages by default. I don't have any problem with them learning it from whatever applicable source, be it an abyssal lord, guardinal paragon, baernaloth, etc. In that case, yes I agree with you:cool:
Bloodsoul 08-28-07, 12:49 PM	I most certainly agree with the ascended deity idea; infact that makes me wonder if deities would even take penalties from speaking the languages. Mortals can know a few words, celestials/demons/devils a few phrases, but it wouldn't suprise me if deities of good/evil would understand the language inside and out, while those ascended from mortals might face the same restrictions as before. Still, it's just one Fear for either, not a big sacrifice considering how many Feats deities generally have, anyway. ^_^
Mirtek 08-28-07, 01:31 PM	I would say yes, they should automatically understand them and be able to use them. The same should be true for the archfiends, it just doesn't fit that they simply all go the feat. It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech. So not only need demonprinces and archdevils a feat to be able to use it at all, even with the feats they're just barely able to mutter only the slighest syllables. Evil God should logically know the language of evil Good gods should know the language of good. They should also at very least know the opposite language too. It's too big a secret to keep hidden for all eternity. In the countless milenia since it's creation, the other side should long since have learned to at least understand the words. So Orcus could follow a conversation in the words of creation and understand what they're talking about, even if he finds the word loathsome and refuses to utter them himself then go ahead and have him take the feat. He has plenty of feats lying about. The problem is that the feat gives him no real knowledge of the language anyway. The feat gives him a simpleton's ability to after a fashion mouth a crude version of some basic words but does not enable him to speak the language. Orcus should be able to walk up to Demogorgon and say "Hi, how are you? Still raining in Gaping Maw? You aren't still pouting about of my recent little invasion, are you?" as part of a completly normal conversation among such exemplars of evil (ignoring that they are not very likely to just have a chitchat)
Witch 08-28-07, 01:42 PM	It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech. This is indeed a problem. I'd couple the feat to Intelligence and add that more can be done the higher your intelligence. So not only need demonprinces and archdevils a feat to be able to use it at all, even with the feats they're just barely able to mutter only the slighest syllables. Such archfiends would receive it as a bonus feat. They should also at very least know the opposite language too. It's too big a secret to keep hidden for all eternity. The opposite language is one of utter good - depending on your interpretation, you may not want archfiends even being able to understand such Good. At least, I don't think they'd ever speak it. In the countless milenia since it's creation, the other side should long since have learned to at least understand the words. So Orcus could follow a conversation in the words of creation and understand what they're talking about, even if he finds the word loathsome and refuses to utter them himself I need to read an entire post before giving my opinion ;) Orcus should be able to walk up to Demogorgon and say "Hi, how are you? Still raining in Gaping Maw? You aren't still pouting about of my recent little invasion, are you?" as part of a completly normal conversation among such exemplars of evil (ignoring that they are not very likely to just have a chitchat) I agree.
Starmage21 08-28-07, 04:31 PM	I would say yes, they should automatically understand them and be able to use them. The same should be true for the archfiends, it just doesn't fit that they simply all go the feat. It's especially strange if you consider that this feat is supposed to represents merely crude mastery of the least syllables of true dark speech. The feat doesnt represent that you have a crude mastery of the speech, but rather that you can(as a mortal) speak a few words to achieve an effect without annihlating yourself with it. The feat itself implies that immortal beings can learn the entire laguage without ever taking the feat, and have no trouble spouting off entire sentences composed of the Dark Speech or Words of Creation. The effects that can be achieved with those particular feats are small, just giving them to a particular outsider for use against your group as a fiat isnt a bad idea. I doubt every fiend(or celestial) in existance knows the language however.
Kain Darkwind 08-28-07, 05:52 PM	keep in mind that using Dark Speech/Words of Creation are similar to using power words or truespeech. Just because you know the word/language doesn't mean you can use the abilities. For instance, technically someone with the Polyglot feat knows how to speak and understand Dark Speech, WoC and even the language of magic. That doesn't give him the ability to use Dark Speech or Power Word Kill at will, however. That said, I do agree with the idea that Dark Speech and WoC should be taken to a higher level, of which the gods and archfiends and celestial paragons who know how to can make extreme use. And I agree that the baseline abilities represented by the two feats should be within the purview of those beings automatically. Without dealing them Cha damage.
Kyuketsukiouji 08-29-07, 08:03 PM	I wouldn't allow anything that lets you know any language the ability to learn "magical" languages (Word of Creation, Dark Speech, Truespeech). The possibilities for abuse are far too great otherwise.
Andyr 08-30-07, 02:56 PM	I would say that deities and other planar lords don't need feats to be able to speak Words of Creation or the Dark Speech (as appropriate), but then again I also don't give them stats. ;) They simply do what they have to do.