Do gods who haven't been reprinted in 3.x still exist? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do gods who haven't been reprinted in 3.x still exist? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
01-10-08, 07:52 AM This has been bugging me for a while. If a deity was published in a previous edition, but has not been reprinted in the current edition does it still exist? Is it still "official" canon, and still part of the D&D cosmology?

I have spent a whole day reading up on D&D deities, many of which have not reappeared in print since 2nd edition. A group which really caught my interest was the Seelie Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seelie_Court_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) . Sadly, from what I read on wikipeida.com only one of these deities has been reprinted in 3.x (Skerrit in Defenders of the Faith). In fact, two of the deities' races have not been reprinted either (the killmoulis and leprechauns), so I do not think their followers even still exist (or do they?).

List of deities in the Seelie Court:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathair_Sgiathach#Fey_deities

If not, are said unreprinted deities (and unreprinted races) "officially" considered dead/extinct? Has there been any official statements on this subject?

As always, thanks in advance for any help!

edit:
Oh, and I remember reading in the Manual of the Planes about a Seelie Court and an Unseelie Court on the Plane of Faerie. They bare no resemblance to the group of Fey deities I mentioned above, and are just a group of like-minded fey (one group good, one group evil) who live on the Plane of Faerie. Does them having the same name mean this is a replacement?

Also, the Seelie Court has/had it's own plane which traveled across the Upper Planes as it's members desired. Does this plane now not exist due to the Plane of Faerie?
sciborg3
01-10-08, 08:39 AM I honestly don't think this was addressed. It's hard to assume that something unmentioned exists definitively though it's equally strange to think of it as not-there-at-all.
Naderion
01-10-08, 10:33 AM As long as there's no official publication that says it's gone, everything can be assumed to be still existent. There's a great deal of stuff from older publications, that hasn't been reprinted in 3.5e books yet, but it's unlikely that this should imply it is removed from the settings.
Theoreticaly, there could be a publications just next month, that has something in it, that hasn't been reprinted since 3rd Ed. :D
Kain_Darkwind
01-10-08, 06:57 PM No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.
TheShade_XIV
01-10-08, 08:18 PM This may be less relevant than I hoped, but...

In v3* Monster Manual it mentions several different deities that were NOT printed in v3 Deities and Demigods. Yet, as a core rulebook, wouldn't the Monster Manual reign surpeme there?

Example (because I can't remember very many of them) the much earlier editions (like, AD&D) had collective books for deities and the like. Among the collected deities were such figures as Blipdoolpoolp (sp?) and Yeenoghu (sp?). Both of these characters are NOT mentioned in v3 Deities and Demigods, yet see reference in the Monster Manual or the Manual of the Planes.

I guess my point is: Just because they were neglected from the official collection doesn't mean the whole cosmology has forgotten about them. Just dig deep in the older core books.

I would be deeply surprised if they chose to edit out characters as they upgraded the game versions, rather than adding new ones.

*(I know I'm behind the gaming curve, but why should I have to upgrade to v3.5 when no one else wants to upgrade to v4?)
Naderion
01-12-08, 01:24 PM Look at wikipedia for Deities in D&D or something like that. You can't get all that in 1 book, probably not even in three or four.
DebiHuman
01-13-08, 01:24 PM If you look at the Fey Feature on the WotC site, you'll find a lot of information regarding the seelie and unseelie courts. I'm not certain that there has been an "official" book on this but Faeries by Bastion Press (and currently by Dragonwing Press) converted the pantheon and added to it. I happen to like the product and you can preview it here (and note there is errata that you can download as well: http://dragonwing.net/Faeries.htm

You may also be interested in this review: http://www.d20zines.com/v7/node/1320 or this one: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010329

One of the things I liked is that there is so much open gaming content.

Debby
LordMortanius
01-14-08, 11:22 PM The last published issue of Dragon updated several deities from Monster Mythology, including Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-26-08, 03:40 PM As long as there's no official publication that says it's gone, everything can be assumed to be still existent. There's a great deal of stuff from older publications, that hasn't been reprinted in 3.5e books yet
I agree with this, plus one step beyond.
Grand History of The Realms - collects more than just v3.5 material.
Indeed, it goes all the way back to pre-1st Edition stuff !
Throw it all in, for a gumbo History of D&D.
Ikyotojin
01-26-08, 03:53 PM Uhmmm... you do realize that if you are the DM you are the god over the gods, right? I have several gods that are unique to my campaign and don't have most that are "official". Why not make your own? It's a game about imagination.
Kain_Darkwind
01-26-08, 04:17 PM Uhmmm... you do realize that if you are the DM you are the god over the gods, right? I have several gods that are unique to my campaign and don't have most that are "official". Why not make your own? It's a game about imagination.

You aren't allowed to do that if they aren't in the books.
NoldorForce
01-26-08, 04:34 PM No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.No no no, they just fell into plotholes.

Seriously, Kain is being sarcastic here. And mocking the folks that don't allow material (flavor, mechanics, whatever) from editions other than the current one solely because "it's not current". (The argument is most common between 3.0 and 3.5 from what I've seen.) And the folks who stand by the RAW no matter what. (This is different from arguing that the rules allow you to do silly thing X, but you'd never run it that way if you were the DM.)
sckeener
01-29-08, 04:14 PM I have always assumed they still existed because the fluff behind the system hadn't changed too much....the great wheel...

for the future of the system, consult a magic eight ball....

...murky!
Eldritch_Lord
02-03-08, 08:56 PM Oh, and I remember reading in the Manual of the Planes about a Seelie Court and an Unseelie Court on the Plane of Faerie. They bare no resemblance to the group of Fey deities I mentioned above, and are just a group of like-minded fey (one group good, one group evil) who live on the Plane of Faerie. Does them having the same name mean this is a replacement?

Those are the same ones. They weren't specifically called out as being deities, but the Seelie Court is the Seelie Court is the Seelie Court. Just like towards the beginning of 3.0 the Seldarine gods (elven pantheon) were just called a bunch of Corellon Larethian's helpers; the only difference is that the Seldarine were eventually called out and given 3.0 stats while the Seelie and Unseelie weren't.
Shiftkitty
02-05-08, 03:25 PM Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere?
Eldritch_Lord
02-05-08, 04:21 PM Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere?

Dragon #294.
Shiftkitty
02-08-08, 10:54 PM Thanks. I'll have to see if I can find a hard copy for sale somewhere (I'm not crazy about PDFs for magazines). Meanwhile, can you tell me what his Divine Rank is? Is he still a Demigod, or did he go up some?
Kain_Darkwind
02-08-08, 11:01 PM Thanks. I'll have to see if I can find a hard copy for sale somewhere (I'm not crazy about PDFs for magazines). Meanwhile, can you tell me what his Divine Rank is? Is he still a Demigod, or did he go up some?

DvR 3
Thanael
02-12-08, 03:44 PM Dicefreaks used to have some pretty god stats for Iuz on the old boards. They havn't been reposted on DF blackops yet.

He was a Marquis Cambion 15/Assassin 10 / Cleric 20 iirc.
Shiftkitty
02-12-08, 09:54 PM Thanks, guys.

I know a Cambion is like a cross between something infernal and high-ranking and a mortal (I think, wasn't Iuz old man Grazz't?). What's a Marquis Cambion?
Thanael
02-13-08, 08:45 AM A cambion is a half-fiend in 3E, a marquis cambion is sort of a greater half-fiend, DF had it's own template.

Iuz is the offspring of Iggwilv and Graz'zt. (See also his wikipedia entry)

For Iuz' extended family tree see the following thread on canonfire: Graz'zt is everywhere (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1162&highlight=baba) (there's a nice pic of the family tree by Ripvanwormer/rasgon on p.2)

Rip also wrote an excellent article about The birth and childhood of Iuz (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28)
Kain_Darkwind
02-13-08, 11:56 AM An actual separate cambion monster shows up in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. It is described as the cross breeding of a half fiend and a tiefling.

I used their suggestions to stat a Baron Cambion (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=17246#17246) here, along with adding a cross between DF's marquis half-fiend and the original half fiend to make a marquis cambion.
mmxbass
02-16-08, 09:44 PM No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.That's kind of what I was thinking too. D&D is in the imagination. It's a game and to argue about whether something is "real" in a pretend world is meaningless.

The bottom line is this. Whatever the DM says is there, is there. The idea of anything being "canon" is just silly. The DM is the absolute and final arbiter of what does or doesn't exist in your particular campaign, period. Nothing we say, nothing wizards says, nothing TSR said way back has ever been anything other than guidelines and suggestions. The DM is God, Amen.
Shiftkitty
02-16-08, 10:31 PM Nothing we say, nothing wizards says, nothing TSR said way back has ever been anything other than guidelines and suggestions. The DM is God, Amen.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Preach on, Brother! I've always believed that D&D was meant to be a Homebrew game. Even the basic mechanics of the game were meant to be tweaked to fit the DMs particular vision of how things work. I've messed with the mechanics in every version of D&D I've ever had and suffered no ill effects. I doubt I'll have any issues with 4e, either. The game content is completely up to the DM as well. I allowed Githyanki PCs ever since the first Fiend Folio came out. Orc PCs, gnoll PCs, etc., and I didn't need TSR's permission to do it. I see the books as little more than pre-made ingredients for a fantastic recipe. It's like buying spices at the store. You can either get the "Meatloaf Spice Mix" package (the D&D books) or you can throw in your own mix of spices. (Guess what I made for dinner tonight?) Nothing wrong with buying the pre-mades, but sometimes it's more fun to try something from scratch.
EvilVegan
02-18-08, 01:12 PM Did the gods exist before? I'm pretty sure it's all fake.
Eldritch_Lord
02-18-08, 07:26 PM Did the gods exist before? I'm pretty sure it's all fake.

SSSH! Don't tell your party's cleric that; you might not get resurrected the next time you need it.
EvilVegan
02-21-08, 12:24 PM That's fine. Athar can't be resurrected anyway.
mmxbass
02-21-08, 01:08 PM That's fine. Athar can't be resurrected anyway.I'm 80% sure that Athar can be resurrected by godless clerics who either follow the Greater Unknown (such as Factol Terrance) or ideals (such as a cleric of Lawfulness).
EvilVegan
02-21-08, 01:57 PM I'm 100% sure that I was talking out of my arse and have no Idea what the resurrection restrictions of the Athar are.

I'm a Sensate more often than not, and a Xaositect less often than that. In between those I'm usually Indep.
Eldritch_Lord
02-21-08, 07:17 PM I'm 100% sure that I was talking out of my arse and have no Idea what the resurrection restrictions of the Athar are.

I'm pretty sure Athar can be resurrected, they just don't believe in it.

I'm a Sensate more often than not, and a Xaositect less often than that. In between those I'm usually Indep.

Xaositects FTW!
mmxbass
02-22-08, 09:14 AM I'm pretty sure Athar can be resurrected, they just don't believe in it.I don't see why they would care unlike, say, dustmen who I'm pretty sure actually can't be resurrected.
Eldritch_Lord
02-22-08, 11:21 AM I don't see why they would care unlike, say, dustmen who I'm pretty sure actually can't be resurrected.

Well, I'd say they don't believe in it in the same way some real-life religions don't believe in using modern medicine: They are perfectly capable of doing it, and there's nothing in it that would violate their beliefs, but they abstain on a matter of principle.
Surat01
02-27-08, 11:10 PM Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere?

Iuz also has an entry in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk page 219.
Shiftkitty
02-28-08, 03:13 PM Ooh! Thanks! I was debating whether or not I should get that book. How does it stack up to the original "Ruins of Greyhawk"?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 01-10-08, 07:52 AM	This has been bugging me for a while. If a deity was published in a previous edition, but has not been reprinted in the current edition does it still exist? Is it still "official" canon, and still part of the D&D cosmology? I have spent a whole day reading up on D&D deities, many of which have not reappeared in print since 2nd edition. A group which really caught my interest was the Seelie Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seelie_Court_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) . Sadly, from what I read on wikipeida.com only one of these deities has been reprinted in 3.x (Skerrit in Defenders of the Faith). In fact, two of the deities' races have not been reprinted either (the killmoulis and leprechauns), so I do not think their followers even still exist (or do they?). List of deities in the Seelie Court: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathair_Sgiathach#Fey_deities If not, are said unreprinted deities (and unreprinted races) "officially" considered dead/extinct? Has there been any official statements on this subject? As always, thanks in advance for any help! edit: Oh, and I remember reading in the Manual of the Planes about a Seelie Court and an Unseelie Court on the Plane of Faerie. They bare no resemblance to the group of Fey deities I mentioned above, and are just a group of like-minded fey (one group good, one group evil) who live on the Plane of Faerie. Does them having the same name mean this is a replacement? Also, the Seelie Court has/had it's own plane which traveled across the Upper Planes as it's members desired. Does this plane now not exist due to the Plane of Faerie?
sciborg3 01-10-08, 08:39 AM	I honestly don't think this was addressed. It's hard to assume that something unmentioned exists definitively though it's equally strange to think of it as not-there-at-all.
Naderion 01-10-08, 10:33 AM	As long as there's no official publication that says it's gone, everything can be assumed to be still existent. There's a great deal of stuff from older publications, that hasn't been reprinted in 3.5e books yet, but it's unlikely that this should imply it is removed from the settings. Theoreticaly, there could be a publications just next month, that has something in it, that hasn't been reprinted since 3rd Ed. :D
Kain_Darkwind 01-10-08, 06:57 PM	No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.
TheShade_XIV 01-10-08, 08:18 PM	This may be less relevant than I hoped, but... In v3* Monster Manual it mentions several different deities that were NOT printed in v3 Deities and Demigods. Yet, as a core rulebook, wouldn't the Monster Manual reign surpeme there? Example (because I can't remember very many of them) the much earlier editions (like, AD&D) had collective books for deities and the like. Among the collected deities were such figures as Blipdoolpoolp (sp?) and Yeenoghu (sp?). Both of these characters are NOT mentioned in v3 Deities and Demigods, yet see reference in the Monster Manual or the Manual of the Planes. I guess my point is: Just because they were neglected from the official collection doesn't mean the whole cosmology has forgotten about them. Just dig deep in the older core books. I would be deeply surprised if they chose to edit out characters as they upgraded the game versions, rather than adding new ones. *(I know I'm behind the gaming curve, but why should I have to upgrade to v3.5 when no one else wants to upgrade to v4?)
Naderion 01-12-08, 01:24 PM	Look at wikipedia for Deities in D&D or something like that. You can't get all that in 1 book, probably not even in three or four.
DebiHuman 01-13-08, 01:24 PM	If you look at the Fey Feature on the WotC site, you'll find a lot of information regarding the seelie and unseelie courts. I'm not certain that there has been an "official" book on this but Faeries by Bastion Press (and currently by Dragonwing Press) converted the pantheon and added to it. I happen to like the product and you can preview it here (and note there is errata that you can download as well: http://dragonwing.net/Faeries.htm You may also be interested in this review: http://www.d20zines.com/v7/node/1320 or this one: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010329 One of the things I liked is that there is so much open gaming content. Debby
LordMortanius 01-14-08, 11:22 PM	The last published issue of Dragon updated several deities from Monster Mythology, including Mellifleur and Kanchelsis.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-26-08, 03:40 PM	As long as there's no official publication that says it's gone, everything can be assumed to be still existent. There's a great deal of stuff from older publications, that hasn't been reprinted in 3.5e books yet I agree with this, plus one step beyond. Grand History of The Realms - collects more than just v3.5 material. Indeed, it goes all the way back to pre-1st Edition stuff ! Throw it all in, for a gumbo History of D&D.
Ikyotojin 01-26-08, 03:53 PM	Uhmmm... you do realize that if you are the DM you are the god over the gods, right? I have several gods that are unique to my campaign and don't have most that are "official". Why not make your own? It's a game about imagination.
Kain_Darkwind 01-26-08, 04:17 PM	Uhmmm... you do realize that if you are the DM you are the god over the gods, right? I have several gods that are unique to my campaign and don't have most that are "official". Why not make your own? It's a game about imagination. You aren't allowed to do that if they aren't in the books.
NoldorForce 01-26-08, 04:34 PM	No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.No no no, they just fell into plotholes. Seriously, Kain is being sarcastic here. And mocking the folks that don't allow material (flavor, mechanics, whatever) from editions other than the current one solely because "it's not current". (The argument is most common between 3.0 and 3.5 from what I've seen.) And the folks who stand by the RAW no matter what. (This is different from arguing that the rules allow you to do silly thing X, but you'd never run it that way if you were the DM.)
sckeener 01-29-08, 04:14 PM	I have always assumed they still existed because the fluff behind the system hadn't changed too much....the great wheel... for the future of the system, consult a magic eight ball.... ...murky!
Eldritch_Lord 02-03-08, 08:56 PM	Oh, and I remember reading in the Manual of the Planes about a Seelie Court and an Unseelie Court on the Plane of Faerie. They bare no resemblance to the group of Fey deities I mentioned above, and are just a group of like-minded fey (one group good, one group evil) who live on the Plane of Faerie. Does them having the same name mean this is a replacement? Those are the same ones. They weren't specifically called out as being deities, but the Seelie Court is the Seelie Court is the Seelie Court. Just like towards the beginning of 3.0 the Seldarine gods (elven pantheon) were just called a bunch of Corellon Larethian's helpers; the only difference is that the Seldarine were eventually called out and given 3.0 stats while the Seelie and Unseelie weren't.
Shiftkitty 02-05-08, 03:25 PM	Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere?
Eldritch_Lord 02-05-08, 04:21 PM	Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere? Dragon #294.
Shiftkitty 02-08-08, 10:54 PM	Thanks. I'll have to see if I can find a hard copy for sale somewhere (I'm not crazy about PDFs for magazines). Meanwhile, can you tell me what his Divine Rank is? Is he still a Demigod, or did he go up some?
Kain_Darkwind 02-08-08, 11:01 PM	Thanks. I'll have to see if I can find a hard copy for sale somewhere (I'm not crazy about PDFs for magazines). Meanwhile, can you tell me what his Divine Rank is? Is he still a Demigod, or did he go up some? DvR 3
Thanael 02-12-08, 03:44 PM	Dicefreaks used to have some pretty god stats for Iuz on the old boards. They havn't been reposted on DF blackops yet. He was a Marquis Cambion 15/Assassin 10 / Cleric 20 iirc.
Shiftkitty 02-12-08, 09:54 PM	Thanks, guys. I know a Cambion is like a cross between something infernal and high-ranking and a mortal (I think, wasn't Iuz old man Grazz't?). What's a Marquis Cambion?
Thanael 02-13-08, 08:45 AM	A cambion is a half-fiend in 3E, a marquis cambion is sort of a greater half-fiend, DF had it's own template. Iuz is the offspring of Iggwilv and Graz'zt. (See also his wikipedia entry) For Iuz' extended family tree see the following thread on canonfire: Graz'zt is everywhere (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1162&highlight=baba) (there's a nice pic of the family tree by Ripvanwormer/rasgon on p.2) Rip also wrote an excellent article about The birth and childhood of Iuz (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28)
Kain_Darkwind 02-13-08, 11:56 AM	An actual separate cambion monster shows up in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. It is described as the cross breeding of a half fiend and a tiefling. I used their suggestions to stat a Baron Cambion (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=17246#17246) here, along with adding a cross between DF's marquis half-fiend and the original half fiend to make a marquis cambion.
mmxbass 02-16-08, 09:44 PM	No, they don't exist. If it isn't printed in a current WotC book, it isn't real make-believe.That's kind of what I was thinking too. D&D is in the imagination. It's a game and to argue about whether something is "real" in a pretend world is meaningless. The bottom line is this. Whatever the DM says is there, is there. The idea of anything being "canon" is just silly. The DM is the absolute and final arbiter of what does or doesn't exist in your particular campaign, period. Nothing we say, nothing wizards says, nothing TSR said way back has ever been anything other than guidelines and suggestions. The DM is God, Amen.
Shiftkitty 02-16-08, 10:31 PM	Nothing we say, nothing wizards says, nothing TSR said way back has ever been anything other than guidelines and suggestions. The DM is God, Amen. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Preach on, Brother! I've always believed that D&D was meant to be a Homebrew game. Even the basic mechanics of the game were meant to be tweaked to fit the DMs particular vision of how things work. I've messed with the mechanics in every version of D&D I've ever had and suffered no ill effects. I doubt I'll have any issues with 4e, either. The game content is completely up to the DM as well. I allowed Githyanki PCs ever since the first Fiend Folio came out. Orc PCs, gnoll PCs, etc., and I didn't need TSR's permission to do it. I see the books as little more than pre-made ingredients for a fantastic recipe. It's like buying spices at the store. You can either get the "Meatloaf Spice Mix" package (the D&D books) or you can throw in your own mix of spices. (Guess what I made for dinner tonight?) Nothing wrong with buying the pre-mades, but sometimes it's more fun to try something from scratch.
EvilVegan 02-18-08, 01:12 PM	Did the gods exist before? I'm pretty sure it's all fake.
Eldritch_Lord 02-18-08, 07:26 PM	Did the gods exist before? I'm pretty sure it's all fake. SSSH! Don't tell your party's cleric that; you might not get resurrected the next time you need it.
EvilVegan 02-21-08, 12:24 PM	That's fine. Athar can't be resurrected anyway.
mmxbass 02-21-08, 01:08 PM	That's fine. Athar can't be resurrected anyway.I'm 80% sure that Athar can be resurrected by godless clerics who either follow the Greater Unknown (such as Factol Terrance) or ideals (such as a cleric of Lawfulness).
EvilVegan 02-21-08, 01:57 PM	I'm 100% sure that I was talking out of my arse and have no Idea what the resurrection restrictions of the Athar are. I'm a Sensate more often than not, and a Xaositect less often than that. In between those I'm usually Indep.
Eldritch_Lord 02-21-08, 07:17 PM	I'm 100% sure that I was talking out of my arse and have no Idea what the resurrection restrictions of the Athar are. I'm pretty sure Athar can be resurrected, they just don't believe in it. I'm a Sensate more often than not, and a Xaositect less often than that. In between those I'm usually Indep. Xaositects FTW!
mmxbass 02-22-08, 09:14 AM	I'm pretty sure Athar can be resurrected, they just don't believe in it.I don't see why they would care unlike, say, dustmen who I'm pretty sure actually can't be resurrected.
Eldritch_Lord 02-22-08, 11:21 AM	I don't see why they would care unlike, say, dustmen who I'm pretty sure actually can't be resurrected. Well, I'd say they don't believe in it in the same way some real-life religions don't believe in using modern medicine: They are perfectly capable of doing it, and there's nothing in it that would violate their beliefs, but they abstain on a matter of principle.
Surat01 02-27-08, 11:10 PM	Does Iuz have 3* stats somewhere? Iuz also has an entry in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk page 219.
Shiftkitty 02-28-08, 03:13 PM	Ooh! Thanks! I was debating whether or not I should get that book. How does it stack up to the original "Ruins of Greyhawk"?