Post/Author/DateTime	Post
msavage 06-06-07, 07:39 PM	Just a newbie question. The SRD shows abilities and features of divine ranks, but I was unsure how they affect a characters ECL and how a character aquires a divine rank even if its a divine rank of 0 (for instance does a character starting with a divine rank of 0 have a higher ECL)? Thanks for any replies.
Bluehero 06-06-07, 10:25 PM	There is no set ECL, however +5 per rank (including 0) seems to work ok as a "quick fix" so to speak. However, be aware that once you get into actual ranks above 0 the actual SDA picked is very important. For example, alter reality is hugely unbalaneing to group play unless everyone has it, including the enemies, but on the other hand, divine weapon focus, which gives a mere +4 to attack, while powerful, is unlikely to upset as much.
Elana 06-07-07, 05:05 AM	Thereare no official rules to acquire a divine rank. Looking at Myths you seem to be either born with a divine rank or not. Some Dnd settings seem to allow for ascension. Either through a god granting you a part of his power, or by forcefully take it from a deity. (That seemed to work in that alternative future for Raistlin) For ECL. simple, if you have no divine rank and attack a god you are dead, unless the DM has arranged some special circumstances for you to exploit. (You might actually be able to defeat a single deity at epic levels, but the round afterwards you would deal with a whole pantheon of gods and that is too much for any mortal)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-07-07, 11:01 AM	DvR 0 is pegged at LA +6 in most calculations. Past that, you can't really peg an LA down, because of the massive variation in power of SDAs.
Kain Darkwind 06-07-07, 11:54 AM	I would firmly reccomend giving no LA to full fledged godhood, and instead ensure that either all the PCs are gods (of the same tier, demi, lesser, etc), or all the PCs are not. ECL is a mechanical tool to ensure balance between PCs, nothing more, and a simple number really can't compensate for the myrid benefits that godhood brings to the table. RLY's +6 for DvR 0 sounds close enough for quasi-godhood however.
RealSorceror 06-07-07, 01:05 PM	(You might actually be able to defeat a single deity at epic levels, but the round afterwards you would deal with a whole pantheon of gods and that is too much for any mortal) Lol, you clearly haven't met my playgroup. ;)
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 01:24 PM	Lol, you clearly haven't met my playgroup. ;) Tremble in fear, oh gods of Greyhawk- tremble. :P
Deamon 06-07-07, 01:30 PM	Lol, you clearly haven't met my playgroup. ;) No anyone nondivine would lose to almost any pantheon as at least one god in it will have life and death. Instant kill no save.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 01:35 PM	No anyone nondivine would lose to almost any pantheon as at least one god in it will have life and death. Instant kill no save. You hear that, Salad-Bar; Vecna isn't so easy to kill without divine rank. You better start wearing your "I Love Dwarves" t-shirt along with that black cloak and Mask of the Skull. :P
Kursk 06-07-07, 01:52 PM	Default Does anyone know how divine ranks affect a characters ECL? There is no rule as PCs weren't meant to be gods.
Kihon 06-07-07, 01:53 PM	IMO anyone that plays with characters that can "take on" a divine power really doesn't understand 'divinity' very well. Lets see - I'm going to 'Alter Reality' at will = I don't like the look of this group - they just killed my super epic ubber guards - hmmm, perhaps they'd look better as frogs -"bam" no save, no I resist...No Alter Reality as a True Power and nothing mortal withstands it. But I limited the example. Hey Vecna remember when I didn't kill that priest of yours who upset my temple 10,000 years ago. And Nerull remember when the demon per of yours upset my high priest hood on planet x, 1000 years ago. And etc... Well I'm calling in the poker chips - it seems I have a group of mere mortals who can actually challenge me after I've existed for over 100,000 years and truly represent the ideals of (pick your sphere of influence). So anyways - I guess I need your Divine support on this one... I'll take any lesser power you pick against any epic group you want... equip them with whatever... doesn't really matter... now if you can get to my domain we'll see how quickly you die - rest assured it won't take long :) -now back on topic - divine ranks adding +6 to ECL sounds about right - for DR 0, beyond that I agree with the above posts that there is too much variety and frankly too many options to really ECL them.
RealSorceror 06-07-07, 01:58 PM	You hear that, Salad-Bar; Vecna isn't so easy to kill without divine rank. You better start wearing your "I Love Dwarves" t-shirt along with that black cloak and Mask of the Skull. :P Pssh. I'll just tell Dotrak that Vecna insulted his mother. That'll learn 'em. :cool:
Deamon 06-07-07, 02:04 PM	I'll take any lesser power you pick against any epic group you want... equip them with whatever... doesn't really matter... now if you can get to my domain we'll see how quickly you die - rest assured it won't take long :)Really? Any epic group at all? Should I post stats cause I'm fairly sure I can post one.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 02:09 PM	Pssh. I'll just tell Dotrak that Vecna insulted his mother. That'll learn 'em. :cool: Giant city mechs have mothers???
RealSorceror 06-07-07, 02:10 PM	Giant city mechs have mothers??? No, but I do have a bluff mod of around 95. Plus, I slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 02:20 PM	No, but I do have a bluff mod of around 95. Plus, I slept at a Holiday Inn last night. We call that "conditional modifiers." :D
Kihon 06-07-07, 02:56 PM	Daemon feel free to "post your group" that you created. I'm sure your party of 8 characters of level 75 average have been playing 30 years...still if you come into my realm and you are not divine you are dead. Unless you have a divine power backing you, death becomes your 'mortal' group. See in my realm I decide what "wish" is granted, and non of yours will be. I decide what gates open, and with your group around there will be no gates or summoning. And again - I like "Alter Reality" at will - as a divine power. So moments after you arrive every piece of gear you have that is not an artificat will suddenly be lying at my feet - and your naked selves will feel a power down, for just a moment before you all become frogs. Then - because I feel generous I'll send you out of my domain, and even send back your equipment (except any of those artificats that I'm sure you created as level ubber 75+ characters), and a note that reads simply "No Mortal creature - regardless of how powerful will ever defeat a True Divine Power" :)
Witch 06-07-07, 03:03 PM	What makes you think there's no save DC? What makes you think you are going to destroy those items? Just - back it up with rules, will you?
DaidojiTaidoru 06-07-07, 03:13 PM	ALTER REALITY Prerequisite: Cha 29. Benefit: This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at least a standard action. Notes: The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier. So no. That doesn't work. You're looking for LIFE AND DEATH Prerequisites: Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability. Benefit: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life. Notes: This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. or this DIVINE SPLENDOR Prerequisites: Divine rank 16, Cha 26. Benefit: Any mortal who approaches within 10 feet per divine rank of the deity in its natural form dies immediately, with no saving throw.
Witch 06-07-07, 03:21 PM	Divine Splendor is easily avoided. Just stay out of range. And use Astral Projection. Hand of Death: Destruction is a Death Effect. Just use Death Ward. Boohoo, scary.
RealSorceror 06-07-07, 03:44 PM	Divine Splendor is easily avoided. Just stay out of range. And use Astral Projection. Hand of Death: Destruction is a Death Effect. Just use Death Ward. Boohoo, scary. I'm already immune to death effects. :plotting: Now Vecna, where were we.....
Millennium 06-07-07, 03:47 PM	Generally speaking, DvR exists outside of the normal ECL system. You could probably figure out LAs for the general powers of each level of divinity, and then add on LA adjustments for each SDA separately, but I would not recommend simply adding a set LA for each point of DvR.
Kihon 06-07-07, 04:33 PM	Witch I didn't know you were a rules lawyer... so go kill Zeus, Odin, & Ra as a warm up and let me know how that goes. Rules...hmmm -- I believe there is at least one other post here that deals with divine powers facing mortals, but if you want a ton of posts on the topic head over to Dicefreaks. The Powers (gods, whatever you want to call them) represent aspects of greater cosmic concepts. While you may defeat an avatar - you simply can not defeat their cosmic essence while you are mortal. I believe the Immortals Handbook goes into a bit of detail on this, as perhaps does the dieties & demigods book. Epic is still mortal, not divine. Because someone gives "stats" to a being doesn't mean you can kill it, unless you can stop 100 million worshipers on 100 different planes and planets all at the same time. The powers represent an idea - go ahead and take it out. If you DM lets you kill the Powers - then enjoy the munchkin game - it just doesn't happen. I can hear it now...well I first killed Orcus, then the arch-dukes of hell, tiamat, and then I really got going and took out some moderate powers before moving up to Zeus, Odin, and Ra. Ok - whatever. Difference of points of view - you can't kill the gods. My favorite example - an epic group faces a Power - the power simple conjures up a portal hole and drops it ontop of them... what gear did you say you all had...hmmm - bag of holding anyone:) Or drop it in front of them and they fall into the standard pit...same explosive conclusion.
Witch 06-07-07, 05:22 PM	Witch I didn't know you were a rules lawyer... so go kill Zeus, Odin, & Ra as a warm up and let me know how that goes. You spoke of the total unkillability by deities by any mortals. You did not mention greater deities, and you left open the ability for mortals of any level. Myself, I limit mortals to 50 HD. Rules...hmmm -- I believe there is at least one other post here that deals with divine powers facing mortals, but if you want a ton of posts on the topic head over to Dicefreaks. I'm a designer for Dicefreaks - you don't need to tell me to go there. The Powers (gods, whatever you want to call them) represent aspects of greater cosmic concepts. And can be replaced by other people. The unreplaceable ones are exemplars - people such as Asmodeus, Demogorgon and Morwel. While you may defeat an avatar - you simply can not defeat their cosmic essence while you are mortal. You're mixing Divine and Cosmic here. I believe the Immortals Handbook goes into a bit of detail on this, as perhaps does the dieties & demigods book. If you want to reference Immortals Handbook, Upper Krust doesn't make an automatic "divine always beats epic" distinction. In fact, he grants epic character the ability to take divine abilities. But this is irrelevant - his rule system is entirely different from Deities and Demigods. The two cannot be used together. Epic is still mortal, not divine. I believe the highest non-divine creatures should be a match for the lowest divine ones. Because someone gives "stats" to a being doesn't mean you can kill it, Obviously. unless you can stop 100 million worshipers on 100 different planes and planets all at the same time. Not at all required. Look at the gods Tenebrous killed. He didn't kill their worshippers, he killed them. The powers represent an idea - go ahead and take it out. You need to take them out. They only embody the idea for a particular world. Alignment exemplars are the one that embody ideas without relations to a specific world. If you DM lets you kill the Powers - then enjoy the munchkin game - it just doesn't happen. It could be the end of a high epic campaign, but I generally don't condone it. I am very much against it - except I like to see it backed up with rules instead of saying "oh no, you can't do that because I don't like it". My favorite example - an epic group faces a Power - the power simple conjures up a portal hole and drops it ontop of them... what gear did you say you all had...hmmm - bag of holding anyone:) Or drop it in front of them and they fall into the standard pit...same explosive conclusion. Why can't mortals do such a thing, then?
Kain Darkwind 06-07-07, 05:25 PM	The trick in beating a god is never avoiding its offense. It is in overcoming its defense. Rejuvenation Prerequisites Divine rank 11, Divine Fast Healing salient divine ability. Benefit When the deity suffers an attack that should destroy it, it simply disperses and reassembles later. Roll 10d10 to determine the number of days before the deity returns. Notes If the deity is killed in its own realm, subtract the deity’s divine rank from the number of days it takes to return. If the deity’s realm is on a divinely morphic Outer Plane, and the deity is killed there, subtract twice the deity’s divine rank from the number of days it takes to return. The return always takes at least one day. This ability is ineffective if the deity is killed by another deity of equal or higher rank. Divine Shield Prerequisites Cha 29. Benefit As a free action, the deity can create a shield that lasts 10 minutes and protects the deity’s body and equipment from attacks. The shield stops 10 points of damage per rank. Once the shield stops that much damage, it collapses. The damage can be from any source, including a divine blast attack. The deity can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + its Constitution bonus. Notes The deity can adjust the shield so that it does not block damage the deity ignores anyway. The effects of multiple divine shields do not stack. Divine Dodge Prerequisite Dex 29. Benefit Any physical attack or individually targeted spell directed at the deity has a percent miss chance equal to 50 + the deity’s rank. Area effects that include the deity have a similar chance to be ineffective. Notes The ability is similar to the blink spell, except that it is defensive only and the deity does not move to the Ethereal Plane, but simply exits from reality for a brief moment. This ability never interferes with the deity’s own attacks. If an attack overcomes the miss chance, the deity still gets the benefit of a saving throw (if one is allowed).
Witch 06-07-07, 05:36 PM	I'm not argueing that gods should be slaughtered, obviously, Kain. I'm simply contesting that deities (even lesser) are always greater than mortals, even if said mortals are, say, level 500.
Kihon 06-07-07, 05:40 PM	The bag of holding trick is simple. I've never read, or heard of, a power walking around with a bag of holding. They don't need such things in their own realms. I've never read, or heard of, an epic group of characters walking around without at least one, or one per person even. If you read what happens when a bag of holding is put into a portable hole you'll see it's no good. So drop power X into a portable hole, and he greater teleports out at will. Drop epic group Y into a portable hole and KaBoom - a rip in reality that sends them randomly flying to other planes if it does not kill them outright - or something worse depending on your DM's take of the situation. IMO (and those DM's at UW-Madison I emailed today) No Epic Character would be able to take down a true power. An avatar - maybe, but not the essence or true life of the power (weather cosmic or divine for any rules type person reading this thread). They are simply beyond the mortal realm. Someone mentioned Orcus's dead alter-ego (Tenebrous - sp?), which of course was not a mortal being when he used the "Word of Creation" - or whatever it was called , to kill a couple of other divine powers. But I digress, as does this whole thread from the poster's question. IMO it doesn't matter what ECL you add - once the being goes divine it should be out of reach of any mortal threat. If not, then it was probably never really divine - never really worshipped, never really tested before earning it's place among the stars:)
Kursk 06-07-07, 05:42 PM	I'm not argueing that gods should be slaughtered, obviously, Kain. I'm simply contesting that deities (even lesser) are always greater than mortals, even if said mortals are, say, level 500. In my game it is irrelevant. Gods can't be killed. I use the Greek pantheon and play them as historically presented. A god can't even kill another god.
Kihon 06-07-07, 05:45 PM	Witch in your last two posts you seem to flip-flop on the issue a bit. Two posts ago you were telling me that an epic group Could kill a deity. One post ago you imply they could not. Which way do you feel? You shouldn't argue both ways - pick a stance and stick with it. You stated that you worked with Dicefreaks. What's the official stance there? My readings over there seem to indicate a power is not going to be taken down by anything mortal. Obviously IMO no mortal (regardless of how EPIC they are) is ever going to take down a divine power. So again, the topic of this post (what ECL to add in once something goes divine) is off target. The powers don't fight individual mortals - they don't need to. They have their followers, proxies, etc... do that sort of thing if it ever becomes necessary.
Kain Darkwind 06-07-07, 05:54 PM	Witch in your last two posts you seem to flip-flop on the issue a bit. Two posts ago you were telling me that an epic group Could kill a deity. One post ago you imply they could not. Which way do you feel? You shouldn't argue both ways - pick a stance and stick with it. You stated that you worked with Dicefreaks. What's the official stance there? My readings over there seem to indicate a power is not going to be taken down by anything mortal. The 'official stance' at Dicefreaks is that because mortals are never found over 50 class levels (and rarely that high), that mortals, even epic ones, are overpowered by demigods and lesser deities, who range from 40-50HD plus their divine abilities. Intermediate and Greater Gods are far beyond their capability to deal with in a meaningful combat fashion. It is possible that a mortal would beat a deity somehow. After all, in core DnD, plenty of cunning mages have beaten gods; some of them were made gods for their trouble. However, by the rules, if you allowed 500th level characters, they could possibly beat even greater deities that were built with 70 or less class levels. Possibly. I'm still wondering how you prevent Divine Splendor + greater teleport from ruining your day. But honestly....if you have 500th level characters, why not have 600th level deities?
Witch 06-07-07, 05:59 PM	Witch in your last two posts you seem to flip-flop on the issue a bit. Two posts ago you were telling me that an epic group Could kill a deity. One post ago you imply they could not. Which way do you feel? You shouldn't argue both ways - pick a stance and stick with it. You stated that you worked with Dicefreaks. What's the official stance there? My readings over there seem to indicate a power is not going to be taken down by anything mortal. Though Kain has clarified: the stance at Dicefreaks is that mortals can never grow to have more than 50 hit dice, which renders the question moot. Greater or Intermediate deities are entirely out of a mortals reach, and lesser or demigods are still stronger, although can be outmaneuvered. This is not because of some intrinsic property of divinity, but simply because mortals are at their peak power at 50 hit dice. And that 50 hit dice is, to us, a maximum which is reached only by very, very select beings who have approached perfection. I'm still wondering how you prevent Divine Splendor + greater teleport from ruining your day. Dimensional anchor.
Kain Darkwind 06-07-07, 06:22 PM	Dimensional anchor. How do you get close enough to use it? God pops in with divine splendor on, you die. Plus, miss chance from divine dodge. It isn't as easy as one might think.
Witch 06-07-07, 06:33 PM	Stop applying your logic and rules knowledge on my bold statements, darnit. Okay, you've got me on Divine Splendor. Regardless, it's a Greater Deity SDA, though, and hence not applicable across the board to Lesser Deities, which was what we were talking about in specific :)
Kain Darkwind 06-07-07, 06:38 PM	Stop applying your logic and rules knowledge on my bold statements, darnit. Okay, you've got me on Divine Splendor. Regardless, it's a Greater Deity SDA, though, and hence not applicable across the board to Lesser Deities, which was what we were talking about in specific :) *Shrug* Serge first came to my attention long ago after posting a breakdown of DvR 10 Bahamut vs a fully advanced prismatic/force wyrm. Against the common belief at the time, Bahamut totally killed the upstart. Who had a 5-6 round headstart before Bahamut used a single offensive ability. He's the fearless leader for a reason...I'm just applying what I learned. Gods are hard to kill as written. Even with a crazy high level advantage.
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-07-07, 10:58 PM	I'm already immune to death effects. :plotting: Now Vecna, where were we..... But we're already gods, Dotrak- it doesn't really count.:) And even though i hate using this example, what about Pun Pun. Having a deital character, I know that you could technically smite him before he ever existed. But if the character somehow avoided a god's notice long enough to boost himself, he might just be able to do it. I don't believe that his "I use squirrels to create Divine Rank" trick actually works. Pun Pun claims to use the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn, which clearly claims that the caster can create a “near” perfect clone of a living-breathing creature, to create a “god clone.” First, deities don’t breath. Secondly, the spell claims that the creature is under control of the caster, which is impossible since even a divine rank 0 deity is immune to all mind-affecting effects—at best he could create the god clone, but not tell it what to do. Pun Pun may be able to create gods, but not become one so easily. The fact remains that if any mortal character could kill a god, which I also think should not be possible, then the most hated kobold in existance could do it. There are benefits to having infinite saving throw bonuses, after all.:)
Dwarven_Fighter_DR20 06-08-07, 01:38 AM	I hate Pun Pun so much. The build is still sound until he tried to involve Divine Rank- as if having infinitely rising ability scores wasn't enough. I also liked his "immune to physical damage" trick. I still don't know how he did the "immune to Divine damge" trick though, the only thing I can think of is the defiant prestige class. The class still doesn't work against a deity's divine blast though- the immunity is only supernatural while the Divine Blast Salient Divine Ability is an extraordinary attack. Hehehe, little kobold goes splat. Not to mention that because he has every domain in the game, he's a threat to every deity's portfolio. I don't know about the other deities, but I woulda smote him for existing 20 weeks before he got the idea to boost himself in such a manner. Take that kobold, and you too viper familiar. :P
ArcTan 06-08-07, 01:55 AM	In my game it is irrelevant. Gods can't be killed. I use the Greek pantheon and play them as historically presented. A god can't even kill another god. How do you explain what the Olympians did to the Titans, then? (Yes, the Titans still *exist* in Tartarus. Just like mortals still *exist* in Hades.)
ArcTan 06-08-07, 01:56 AM	Daemon feel free to "post your group" that you created. I'm sure your party of 8 characters of level 75 average have been playing 30 years...still if you come into my realm and you are not divine you are dead. Unless you have a divine power backing you, death becomes your 'mortal' group. See in my realm I decide what "wish" is granted, and non of yours will be. I decide what gates open, and with your group around there will be no gates or summoning. And again - I like "Alter Reality" at will - as a divine power. So moments after you arrive every piece of gear you have that is not an artificat will suddenly be lying at my feet - and your naked selves will feel a power down, for just a moment before you all become frogs. Then - because I feel generous I'll send you out of my domain, and even send back your equipment (except any of those artificats that I'm sure you created as level ubber 75+ characters), and a note that reads simply "No Mortal creature - regardless of how powerful will ever defeat a True Divine Power" :) The only real point here to make is that while you're certainly free to say this is how gods work in your campaign -- and it's how I would say gods work in my campaign -- it's not how D&DG's rules about gods actually do work. Alter reality most certainly does allow saving throws from mortals (even if they're unlikely to make them), for instance.
Frobojoe 06-08-07, 02:56 AM	How do you get close enough to use it? God pops in with divine splendor on, you die. Plus, miss chance from divine dodge. It isn't as easy as one might think. Hella contingent spells? Just have one that teleports you the hell outta there if a deity comes within x feet, where x is the max range of Divine Splendor. That being said, Divine Splendor is the dumbest thing in the entire world.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 09:29 AM	But we're already gods, Dotrak- it doesn't really count.:) No, I mean Salaazar, as a mortal, is immune to death effects. I'm not a tainted freak for nuthin. And even though i hate using this example, what about Pun Pun. Having a deital character, I know that you could technically smite him before he ever existed. But if the character somehow avoided a god's notice long enough to boost himself, he might just be able to do it. I don't believe that his "I use squirrels to create Divine Rank" trick actually works. Pun Pun claims to use the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn, which clearly claims that the caster can create a “near” perfect clone of a living-breathing creature, to create a “god clone.” First, deities don’t breath. Secondly, the spell claims that the creature is under control of the caster, which is impossible since even a divine rank 0 deity is immune to all mind-affecting effects—at best he could create the god clone, but not tell it what to do. Pun Pun may be able to create gods, but not become one so easily. The fact remains that if any mortal character could kill a god, which I also think should not be possible, then the most hated kobold in existance could do it. There are benefits to having infinite saving throw bonuses, after all.:) Pun Pun is the Shaytan. Heres my issue with this whole "you can't kill a god" thing. :twocents: Too many assumptions are being made. How many dieties actually have Divine Splendor? Not many. In fact, its usually only one or two per pantheon, if that. How many Deities have Alter Reality? Also not many. So the fact that this hypothetical deity just happens to have them seems kinda arbitrary, especially with these ability being quite rare. If a deity doesn't have Divine Splendor and Alter Reality, then a party of epic mortals has an infinitly better chance of actually engaging in combat with the god. If that happens, a well built party could, in fact, kill a deity. Not a Greator Diety, mind you, but a Demogod and perhaps even a Lesser Deity are within their power to combat.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 09:32 AM	Hella contingent spells? Just have one that teleports you the hell outta there if a deity comes within x feet, where x is the max range of Divine Splendor. That being said, Divine Splendor is the dumbest thing in the entire world. Not to mention its a very rare power, and there is no reason why Hypothetical Generic God should have it.
zzakk2to2 06-08-07, 11:00 AM	if mortals can only get to 50HD then anything beyond that is no longer completely mortal. maybe mister bruce isn't a god but dang them 60HD in sorcerer he has sure make him more then mortal. personaly i think if you get a high enough level you might as well be a demigod.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 11:17 AM	if mortals can only get to 50HD then anything beyond that is no longer completely mortal. maybe mister bruce isn't a god but dang them 60HD in sorcerer he has sure make him more then mortal. personaly i think if you get a high enough level you might as well be a demigod. A Quasi-Deity would be more appropriate. You're immortal, but you don't necassarily have worshipers and other divine swag.
Frobojoe 06-08-07, 01:32 PM	Not to mention its a very rare power, and there is no reason why Hypothetical Generic God should have it. Yes, but I'd prefer if it didn't exist at all.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 01:38 PM	Yes, but I'd prefer if it didn't exist at all. Indeed. It strikes me as a good salient ability for an Over-Deity, but not for something that mortals could potentially face in a combat situation.
Witch 06-08-07, 02:07 PM	Indeed. It strikes me as a good salient ability for an Over-Deity, but not for something that mortals could potentially face in a combat situation. Mortals potentially facing a greater deity isn't exactly something I easily buy in a flavor sense :)
Kihon 06-08-07, 02:30 PM	Take your group of Epic Ubber Characters and go kill the Concept of Death incarnate. Go ahead... just find it/him? Where is Death? Where does death exist? Hmmm. Perhaps you can kill those that worship death, but finding it is another thing. Taking Greyhawk (because you can use any world, just the names and domains change a bit) - death is usually thought of as Nerull - the Grimreaper - who's domains are death, evil, & ? - does it matter. Can your group kill Nerull? Perhaps if you can stop those worshipping him, find him, make him give up his divine salient powers, and then fight him - not his avatar...well, ya - right. I believe Planescape has a few supplements that talk about dead gods - you know those beings floating in the Astral plane large enough for whole cities to be build upon. It talks about how a god might actually die. Not once does it mention in any of them a group of epic mortals killing them. Of course planescape was written before the Epic book, so I'm sure you'll all come to the attack on that front - but it's still cannon. Mortals can't kill true powers. Could a group of silly high epic made up characters take out a DR0 being or a demon lord or arch devil? Possibly under the right circumstances, and if their DM allowed it or played said being stupidly. You don't exactly become a power or cosmic entity without thousands of years of planning, so the idea some epic group might come for their own ego trip never crossed your mind? How about a divinely morphic ability which even demon lords/arch devils get on their home planes - and powers get in their domains -- how do you deal with that? Lets say I'm going to make my 'body' appear on a mountain that keeps getting taller, while your entrance into my realm via a portal keeps sinking into a valley -- the distance keeps growing. Now mind you in my realm I know everything that's happening within x - miles of me (depending on my rank), I decide whose wish gets fullfilled, what if any other portals or gates are allowed to be open into my realm, and everytime you try to teleport to me - darn that lava pool just came out of nowhere - since I can alter reality of my plane at will. Now I'm sure you'll over come that be the time I think (just a moment - free action really) - hey vecna remember that time I helped you out...or hey Nerull some epic souls for you here...or I'll even help your mortal followers out with that one adventure if you just pop over and give me a hand. What - no power would ever make an alliance with another for just this occasion? No I'm afraid that even the lowest of demi-gods that you can name, if they are accepted into a pantheon - means they've met the others and most specifically the pantheon big shots (remember they got accepted in by someone) - and as such bring it. Yes you can kill me, but did I mention I agreed to help Greater Power X for the next 1000 years just to secure his help for this very situation? In the end - if you as a DM agree to allow your Epic Mortals to kill a true power that is up to you, just understand that you are in the minority point of view, and that the power they are killing probably isn't being played to it's fullest extent.
Frobojoe 06-08-07, 02:49 PM	Mortals potentially facing a greater deity isn't exactly something I easily buy in a flavor sense :) That doesn't make abilities that destroy any sort of meaningful interaction ok, though.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 02:54 PM	Mortals potentially facing a greater deity isn't exactly something I easily buy in a flavor sense :) To each his own.
Kihon 06-08-07, 03:19 PM	Now someone thinks that they are going to fight a Greater Deity? Wow - the Ego is amazing. Right - just because they are a Greater Deity that has existed since...well near the start of all things...and they hold an important position in a pantheon of other powers...and probably owed dozen's of favors from other powers... ya go ahead. I see you own a +40 Sword of Ra slaying, along with your +50 Battle Axe of Odin Wounding, and +60 Spear of Zeus destruction. Whatever.... If you think your mortals can kill a Greater Power...well your point of view is wrong. It's past - to each their own. I understand it, it's just wrong.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 03:24 PM	Take your group of Epic Ubber Characters and go kill the Concept of Death incarnate. Go ahead... just find it/him? Where is Death? Where does death exist? Hmmm. Perhaps you can kill those that worship death, but finding it is another thing. Taking Greyhawk (because you can use any world, just the names and domains change a bit) - death is usually thought of as Nerull - the Grimreaper - who's domains are death, evil, & ? - does it matter. Can your group kill Nerull? Perhaps if you can stop those worshipping him, find him, make him give up his divine salient powers, and then fight him - not his avatar...well, ya - right. Do I detect some sarcasm? If thats not your play style, thats fine. Its understandable. I'm simply scoffing at your claims that it is impossible for mortals to kill a deity. I agree that a full-flavor Greater God is out of their league, but I see no reason why destroying a Lesser divine being isn't do-able. I believe Planescape has a few supplements that talk about dead gods - you know those beings floating in the Astral plane large enough for whole cities to be build upon. It talks about how a god might actually die. Not once does it mention in any of them a group of epic mortals killing them. Of course planescape was written before the Epic book, so I'm sure you'll all come to the attack on that front - but it's still cannon. Mortals can't kill true powers. Yes, it never mentions a group of mortals killing a true power. You've gone and made the assumption that it never hapened, and you've made an even worse assumption in believing that it can't happen. It ain't cannon, sorry. Yes, its extremely hard and unfeasable, but doesn't say that it can't happen. Could a group of silly high epic made up characters take out a DR0 being or a demon lord or arch devil? Possibly under the right circumstances, and if their DM allowed it or played said being stupidly. You don't exactly become a power or cosmic entity without thousands of years of planning, so the idea some epic group might come for their own ego trip never crossed your mind? Now you're just being unreasonable. An archfiend is well within the ability of a level 50 party. And what makes epic characters "silly"? Where do you think deities come from? Half of them where once epic mortals. How about a divinely morphic ability which even demon lords/arch devils get on their home planes - and powers get in their domains -- how do you deal with that? Lets say I'm going to make my 'body' appear on a mountain that keeps getting taller, while your entrance into my realm via a portal keeps sinking into a valley -- the distance keeps growing. Now mind you in my realm I know everything that's happening within x - miles of me (depending on my rank), I decide whose wish gets fullfilled, what if any other portals or gates are allowed to be open into my realm, and everytime you try to teleport to me - darn that lava pool just came out of nowhere - since I can alter reality of my plane at will. Now I'm sure you'll over come that be the time I think (just a moment - free action really) Wonderful. Why would I let them escape to their stronghold in the first place? hey vecna remember that time I helped you out...or hey Nerull some epic souls for you here...or I'll even help your mortal followers out with that one adventure if you just pop over and give me a hand. What - no power would ever make an alliance with another for just this occasion? No I'm afraid that even the lowest of demi-gods that you can name, if they are accepted into a pantheon - means they've met the others and most specifically the pantheon big shots (remember they got accepted in by someone) - and as such bring it. Yes you can kill me, but did I mention I agreed to help Greater Power X for the next 1000 years just to secure his help for this very situation? And all of that is highly subjective to the campaign setting and storyline. :rolleyes: And if we're going to start calling in divine favors, "Hey Pelor and Heironeous, your bestest paladin and cleric are about to go put the hurt on Erythnul, how about some back up?". In the end - if you as a DM agree to allow your Epic Mortals to kill a true power that is up to you, just understand that you are in the minority point of view, and that the power they are killing probably isn't being played to it's fullest extent. Yes, I agree that I am in the minority. I'm only contending that you are underestimating epic mortals and over-exaggerating divine power.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 03:27 PM	Now someone thinks that they are going to fight a Greater Deity? Wow - the Ego is amazing. Right - just because they are a Greater Deity that has existed since...well near the start of all things...and they hold an important position in a pantheon of other powers...and probably owed dozen's of favors from other powers... ya go ahead. I see you own a +40 Sword of Ra slaying, along with your +50 Battle Axe of Odin Wounding, and +60 Spear of Zeus destruction. Whatever.... If you think your mortals can kill a Greater Power...well your point of view is wrong. It's past - to each their own. I understand it, it's just wrong. I didn't say I was gonna win, nor did I say I even have a snowball's chance in Baator.
zzakk2to2 06-08-07, 03:32 PM	hercules was DR0 and got killed by a smart centaur and a mistake by his wife. DR0 are nothing really special outside of a stat thats high like herculeses strength and they live until they have an accident. the real problem starts when the DR0's god parent(the parent that is a god) gets involved. in fact they are called hero deities so it sounds like maybe a great hero can become DR0 like say someone that breaks the 50HD barrier. Rank 0 Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.
Deamon 06-08-07, 03:38 PM	Take your group of Epic Ubber Characters and go kill the Concept of Death incarnate. Go ahead... just find it/him? Where is Death? Where does death exist? Hmmm. Perhaps you can kill those that worship death, but finding it is another thing. Taking Greyhawk (because you can use any world, just the names and domains change a bit) - death is usually thought of as Nerull - the Grimreaper - who's domains are death, evil, & ? - does it matter. Can your group kill Nerull? Perhaps if you can stop those worshipping him, find him, make him give up his divine salient powers, and then fight him - not his avatar...well, ya - right. Nerull isn't death, no deities and deimgods creature or creature that can exist in those rules is death. They are gods of death. I believe Planescape has a few supplements that talk about dead gods - you know those beings floating in the Astral plane large enough for whole cities to be build upon. It talks about how a god might actually die. Not once does it mention in any of them a group of epic mortals killing them. Of course planescape was written before the Epic book, so I'm sure you'll all come to the attack on that front - but it's still cannon. Mortals can't kill true powers.Anything saying that mortals can't kill gos? Could a group of silly high epic made up characters take out a DR0 being or a demon lord or arch devil? Possibly under the right circumstances, and if their DM allowed it or played said being stupidly. You don't exactly become a power or cosmic entity without thousands of years of planning, so the idea some epic group might come for their own ego trip never crossed your mind? If epic groups can't kill DvR 0 gods then pages 157-168 of the ELH are largely pointless. How about a divinely morphic ability which even demon lords/arch devils get on their home planes - and powers get in their domains -- how do you deal with that? Lets say I'm going to make my 'body' appear on a mountain that keeps getting taller, while your entrance into my realm via a portal keeps sinking into a valley -- the distance keeps growing. Now mind you in my realm I know everything that's happening within x - miles of me (depending on my rank), I decide whose wish gets fullfilled, what if any other portals or gates are allowed to be open into my realm, and everytime you try to teleport to me - darn that lava pool just came out of nowhere - since I can alter reality of my plane at will. Now I'm sure you'll over come that be the time I think (just a moment - free action really) - hey vecna remember that time I helped you out...or hey Nerull some epic souls for you here...or I'll even help your mortal followers out with that one adventure if you just pop over and give me a hand. What - no power would ever make an alliance with another for just this occasion? No I'm afraid that even the lowest of demi-gods that you can name, if they are accepted into a pantheon - means they've met the others and most specifically the pantheon big shots (remember they got accepted in by someone) - and as such bring it. Yes you can kill me, but did I mention I agreed to help Greater Power X for the next 1000 years just to secure his help for this very situation?Then kill the god before he knows whats happening. Maximised Time Stop followed by a Planeshift and Greater Teleport. Then Schism then blast into oblivion. In the end - if you as a DM agree to allow your Epic Mortals to kill a true power that is up to you, just understand that you are in the minority point of view, and that the power they are killing probably isn't being played to it's fullest extent. Anything to back up this statement? The default rules seem to assume that you can kill gods.
Deamon 06-08-07, 03:39 PM	Now someone thinks that they are going to fight a Greater Deity? Wow - the Ego is amazing. Right - just because they are a Greater Deity that has existed since...well near the start of all things...and they hold an important position in a pantheon of other powers...and probably owed dozen's of favors from other powers... ya go ahead. I see you own a +40 Sword of Ra slaying, along with your +50 Battle Axe of Odin Wounding, and +60 Spear of Zeus destruction. Whatever.... If you think your mortals can kill a Greater Power...well your point of view is wrong. It's past - to each their own. I understand it, it's just wrong. Using the standard rules it's perfectly possible.
Kihon 06-08-07, 04:23 PM	Your Right Deamon go Kill Ra, Odin, & Zeus. Enjoy your godkilling campaign. That's why they existed since the start... just so you can kill them with your Epic level mortals. ROFLMAO!
Deamon 06-08-07, 04:30 PM	Where do you get the idea that I run round killing god in my campaigns? I never even said that gods should be killed by mortals I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that mortals can never kill gods.
zzakk2to2 06-08-07, 04:40 PM	I think if you kill a god you probably get DR0 or something from the energy released by the dieing god.
RealSorceror 06-08-07, 06:06 PM	Where do you get the idea that I run round killing god in my campaigns? I never even said that gods should be killed by mortals I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that mortals can never kill gods. Yup, thats what I've been saying as well. Theres no disagreeing that greater and intermediate gods are damn near impossible to kill. But a one in a million chance is still a chance. And no, I'm not just arguing semantics.
Elana 06-09-07, 03:16 AM	Lol, you clearly haven't met my playgroup. ;) Okay, lets say they have a gazillion levels. And assume the pantheon had 12 gods. They kill one. First round after the kill a wish spell will undo there last action (killing the god) And for the rest of their (short) lives 12 save or die spells will be used on them every round. (And that is assuming the gods all don't have very potent salient divine abilities) One god with "Mass Life or Death" would make sure they won't be a second round in their lifes.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-09-07, 10:30 AM	Divine Splendor is easily avoided. Just stay out of range. And use Astral Projection. Planeshift + Greater Teleport. Hand of Death: Destruction is a Death Effect. Just use Death Ward. Boohoo, scary. MDJ.
zzakk2to2 06-09-07, 10:36 AM	if death is when your "soul" leaves your body could you make a will save to stay in the body keeping it alive?
Witch 06-09-07, 01:12 PM	Planeshift + Greater Teleport. We're dealing with epic level magic users here. They'll be somewhere you can't simply greater teleport to if they're not dumb. Perhaps they had their bodies given a ring of sustenance and buried deep under the earth. If they awaken, their intelligent ring casts Greater Teleport out of there. Doesn't leave the body as very threathened. MDJ. Ward against it.
zzakk2to2 06-09-07, 02:49 PM	Immunities Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank. Transmutation A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself. Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. Mind-Affecting Effects A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Energy Immunity Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities. Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration. Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking. Resistances All deities have at least the following resistances. Individual deities may have additional resistances. Energy Resistance A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank. Spell Resistance A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank. a DR0 diety can be killed with death effects and disintegration.
DM Denubis 06-10-07, 01:42 PM	Your Right Deamon go Kill Ra, Odin, & Zeus. Enjoy your godkilling campaign. That's why they existed since the start... just so you can kill them with your Epic level mortals. ROFLMAO! Because nothing makes you seem smarter than being a condescending prick. There is no one way to play the game. If I want to run a god-killing campaign, I will. If my players enjoy it, we're doing something right. It's a game, and it's meant to be fun. I agree with you that no mortal is going to kill a greater deity. But are you really going to argue that no mortal can kill a divine rank one demigod? And once you've got that first divine rank, Divine Splendor isn't much of a problem anymore. Epic spellcasting also closes the gap a lot. A numerical based system waiting to be broken is a good thing. Notice none of the gods, as written, have access to that? If people want to play the game that way, who the hell are you to say that they're wrong? It's meant to be fun. If you don't allow that in your campaign, hey, good for you. Does that mean the rest of us can't have our fun? Grow up.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-10-07, 03:39 PM	Ward against it. Last I checked, you could MDJ the ward. Or use an antimagic field, thus nullifying said ward, while still being able to do whatever you want.
Kihon 06-10-07, 11:12 PM	"Because nothing makes you seem smarter than being a condescending prick. There is no one way to play the game. If I want to run a god-killing campaign, I will. If my players enjoy it, we're doing something right. It's a game, and it's meant to be fun. If people want to play the game that way, who the hell are you to say that they're wrong? It's meant to be fun. If you don't allow that in your campaign, hey, good for you. Does that mean the rest of us can't have our fun?" ------------------------ Very Mature response - and you are correct - play however you want - it's your game. Nice that this response comes from someone with a "DM" in their name title... Makes it look official. Guess that makes you the "condescending prick". Yes very mature - name calling. You truly are the "DM"...
danelsan 06-11-07, 12:04 AM	I believe it should be possible to kill a god, depending on the setting. Even the Deiteis&demigods (or is it the epic level handbook?) says something like "there will always be someone's campaign with level 100 characters and you can increase the levels of the gods to match, or no, if your history is made around the concept that mortals can surpass even the mightiest of the gods". Of course, these are not the exact words. In some of my games, deities can be killed, in others they can't, each cenario I develop can have a diferent take on this matter, as long as it works for the story I have in mind, and as long as me and the other players are having fun! For example, one could say: You CAN'T Kill War, You CAN'T Kill Nature, You CAN'T kill Evil, Good, Heroism, Love - these are concepts the whole cosmology is build upon, they cannot be killed! Well, in most my cosmologies, the Gods represent and promote the cause of those things, but they AREN'T the concepts themselves! If you kill a deity representing, lets say, Love, it wouldn't make love cease to exist! Only that another being would assume it's portfolio, either an existing god, or another, who would ascend to godhood. Not that killing god is common in my gaming table, I don't go to epic levels most of the time - too much math and choices for each villain! (that, and the fact that many people in my gaming group are terrible with the english language and I only have Epic level in english...) I don't believe in a "correct" way to play RPG. For me, it's all about the fun - even if sometimes logic, common sense and rules must get out of the way. A group of Level 200, Divine Rank 25 players in a cosmic contest for the status of "the One", Ruler of all existences? If we can have a good time with it, I don't see any problems (it just wouldn't be fun for a long time, since I get tired of overwhelmingly powerful characters). In increasing order of importance, I consider: rules; logic; setting, roleplay and story;fun Anyway, just my small contribution to take the discussion further off-topic, since most have agreed that there shouldn't be an ECL modifier for Div Rank above zero :) On a side note, if you think I'm wrong and I should play the game "right", even if I dislike it, and my players are not having a good time, then I ask you to go study some self-hypnosis and make sure you forget you ever read this post, ok?
zzakk2to2 06-11-07, 09:17 AM	even if your gods dont only represent stuff like "EVIL" they will have underlings to take their place.
RealSorceror 06-11-07, 10:20 AM	Okay, lets say they have a gazillion levels. And assume the pantheon had 12 gods. They kill one. First round after the kill a wish spell will undo there last action (killing the god) And for the rest of their (short) lives 12 save or die spells will be used on them every round. (And that is assuming the gods all don't have very potent salient divine abilities) One god with "Mass Life or Death" would make sure they won't be a second round in their lifes. Why would the whole pantheon work together? Pelor would never work with Erythnul. Corellian would never work with Gruumsh. Even in custom worlds such as mine, there are just some dieties who won't present a united front. Assuming a balanced number of alignments, that pantheon of twelve becoms a pantheon of 8 (also assuming the nuetral gods pick a side). And thats being generous. Chances are that the good deities would back up a group who is taking down Lolth or Tiamat. The reverse is also quite possible. Deities have divine allies, sure, but they also have divine enemies that would love to see them taken down.
DM Denubis 06-11-07, 02:29 PM	Very Mature response - and you are correct - play however you want - it's your game. Nice that this response comes from someone with a "DM" in their name title... Makes it look official. Guess that makes you the "condescending prick". Yes very mature - name calling. You truly are the "DM"... While I could swap insults with you all day and have a grand old time, let's talk mechanics. I'll assume that you have a copy of Deities and Demigods. Now, I'm not going to bother going through the beginning parts about deicide, because I'm sure you've already read that. But if you'll go to page 142, you'll find the stats for Apep, who I consider to be the weakest deity as written. Sure, he's only a demigod, but you need to start somewhere, right? Read his stats. Carefully consider his offensive and defensive abilities. Then come back here and tell me that you truly and honestly believe that no group of epic adventurers could beat him. I'm willing to bet that a single epic cleric could take him down. Oh, sure, he's from another pantheon that's not likely to ever get any use in any campaign ever. But the point is, there have to be demigods in the regular pantheon too. I mean, how powerful do you really think the King of Ghouls is? His non-divine stats were published in the Book of Vile Darkness. If all he did was gain a few ranks, he's less powerful than the average archfiend. Divine rank doesn't mean auto-win, is the point I'm trying to get across to you. I'm not saying it's possible for a mortal to beat a greater deity, but you saying that no mortal will ever beat a divine power, ever, is kind of stupid, don't you think?