Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 05:14 PM	"The question I posed was not if he existed and I was "allowed" in any shape or form to do what I'm doing, but for anyone interested to tell me what sort of powers they might think this specific deity might have-- in retrospect I should've been more concise and specific in my original post; I didn't realize I would have so much adversity to the concept." In regards to this post of mine I am changing my request so as to get a more specific answer: I'm running an Eberron campaign/adventure in which my characters (epic levels, some psionic) will encounter and confront one of the Dark Six deities-- The Traveller. I came to ask, out of curiousity, what some of his abilities might be? --The Artificer
Blarghy 03-19-08, 05:22 PM	No, none of the official Eberron books would, as the Eberron deities are supposed to be remote to the point where it is an open question of whether they even exist or not.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 05:33 PM	Well damn. I was planning on doing a campaign that involved direct confrontation with The Traveller (of the Dark Six). Wonder if I could get somebody to stat at least him, then.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-19-08, 06:00 PM	Why not stat him yourself and post the results here?
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 06:04 PM	Stat him yourself, we're not your private stat sweatshop. One? Not requesting, just musing. Two? I'm not great with engineering characters of that level without them being ridiculously over-powered to nearly Pun-Punesqe proportions. In summation; shut it. I wasn't asking anyone, especially not anyone in specific. And least of all, now, you.
Bobfred21 03-19-08, 06:04 PM	If I was playing with a DM who involved direct contact with the Gods of Eberron I'd stop playing under him. If you want to have Gods wandering the land doing cool stuff play in Faerun or any other myriad of campaign settings. Eberron isn't meant for that kind of thing.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 06:11 PM	If I was playing with a DM who involved direct contact with the Gods of Eberron I'd stop playing under him. If you want to have Gods wandering the land doing cool stuff play in Faerun or any other myriad of campaign settings. Eberron isn't meant for that kind of thing. Alright, that's your personal preference and you're more than entitled to it. However? THE TRAVELER Chaotic Neutral If not actively benevolent, the Traveler is certainly the least malevolent of the Dark Six. With no apparent connection to the other members of the Six or the Sovereign Host, the Traveler seems willfully independent or even blissfully ignorant of other deities. A shapeshifter who is said to walk the earth in a thousand disguises, the Traveler is at times a creator, a giver of knowledge, a divine prankster, and always an enigma. People ascribe anything they cannot readily understand to the work of the Traveler, but only doppelgangers and lycanthropes routinely revere the Traveler. Shifters, lycanthropes, wanderers, and rogues sometimes ask the Traveler's blessing on their endeavors, but rarely expect or receive anything in response. The Traveler is said to smile on those who use their wits and resourcefulness, and to scorn those who ask for coddling or gifts they have not earned. Domains: Artifice, Celerity*, Chaos, Creation*, Liberation*, Travel, Trickery. Favored Weapon: Scimitar. "...said to walk the earth..." I'm within the campaign setting to put the Traveller in as someone to meet.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-19-08, 06:20 PM	I'm within the campaign setting to put the Traveller in as someone to meet. Who says they need to have distinct stats for PCs to meet with and even interact with them. I've run campaigns with unstatted beings as major antagonists, and it didn't prove all that difficult.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 06:33 PM	Who says they need to have distinct stats for PCs to meet with and even interact with them. I've run campaigns with unstatted beings as major antagonists, and it didn't prove all that difficult. I personally have nothing against running him unstatted; though my players would have something against a Deity who can do anything unexpectedly (well not anything, but most of them like to have some information to reference). not to mention that the Traveller will be influencing one of the other antagonists in the adventure and I'd like to have something to go on as to what powers and boons he could grant, exactly. Again, I realize that unstatted Deity as opposed to the stated would give me freer range in terms of the latter (granting stuff and whatnot) but again-- I like reference; I'm strange like that.
zeratulcraft 03-19-08, 06:39 PM	Things only need stats if you expect the PCs to fight it. And even then, it's a deity. It hits the Win button which you describe really coolly.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 06:45 PM	Things only need stats if you expect the PCs to fight it. And even then, it's a deity. It hits the Win button which you describe really coolly. Ah, but it's an epic level campaign-- and some of the players are psionic. By the time they confront and battle with the Traveller, they are going to have a chance to beat him-- he is not, after all, the end-all ubergod; merely a deity of mischief and other roguish attributes.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-08, 06:50 PM	Part of the assumption of the Traveler is that, even if it *does* exist (it may not) and walks the world (it probably doesn't), and you met it (you almost definitely won't), you'd never know that you *did* meet it - the Traveler doesn't announce itself or make its presence apparent; if you suspect someone of being the Traveler then that's pretty much a sure sign that it isn't the Traveler. As such, the Traveler certainly isn't going to march boldly into some kind of open confrontation. And even if you throw all of that lore out and have it march boldly into an open confrontation, there's no way to harm it in any real sense - it's a force of existence, not just a "big human with big powers" a la the gods of most other settings (and the Deities and Demigods book). The only effective way to beat it would be to somehow eliminate its portfolio from the world - good luck with that, even for epic characters.
JulesCARV 03-19-08, 07:00 PM	There should be some ambiguity as to whether it's actually the Traveller they're encountering or not. It shouldn't be a deity appearing surrounded by a divine nimbus altering reality at will, irrefutably beyond mortal ken. It should be something the characters could argue about afterwards "That the Traveller we saw, in disguise! I'm sure of it." "Oh, Selvik, aren't you being a touch superstitious? There's no reason to think that was anything other than some crazy guy who knew some magic tricks." So maybe I'd stat him as a doppelganger rogue/chameleon with a 60 point buy or the like (in addition to doppelganger ability mods). He's killable, by the way: if the PCs successfully poke him full of enough holes with pointy bits of metal, he bleeds and dies, and leaves a corpse behind. However, 1) he might be quite powerful -- if not powerful beyond (strained) mortal explanation, and 2) if he really was the Traveller in mortal form, they didn't actually kill the deity -- just an avatar, manifestation, disguise, or whatever-you-call-it of the deity. UPDATE: Whoops. I see that you're doing things a bit differently than how I thought. Okay, ignore the above.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 07:01 PM	Part of the assumption of the Traveler is that, even if it *does* exist (it may not) and walks the world (it probably doesn't), and you met it (you almost definitely won't), you'd never know that you *did* meet it - the Traveler doesn't announce itself or make its presence apparent; if you suspect someone of being the Traveler then that's pretty much a sure sign that it isn't the Traveler. As such, the Traveler certainly isn't going to march boldly into some kind of open confrontation. And even if you throw all of that lore out and have it march boldly into an open confrontation, there's no way to harm it in any real sense - it's a force of existence, not just a "big human with big powers" a la the gods of most other settings. The only effective way to beat it would be to somehow eliminate its portfolio from the world - good luck with that, even for epic characters. For the purposes of my setting, we assume that the deities exist in one form or another, possibly being on another plane entirely. My players will eventually meet him, and not a disguised version of himself-- for reasons I can't relate presently due to them being secret within the campaign-- but the actual being himself; a semblance of a very empowered changeling (along the lines of an Inspired/Kalashtar's aural appearence). And given that there isn't a base set of knowledge for the existance of the various deities in the Eberron pantheon, I am going to assume henceforth that they are in substantial form and do have substantial abilities. The Traveller is not such a gambler as some of the more light-hearted thief-worshipped deities, but I assume will accept a challenge (on respectable grounds). Obviously, as you pointed out, he's not "marching boldly" into anything; none of the deities are. However, in this adventure I am presenting an antagonist as the servant of the Traveller, and in harming the servant it angers the deity himself, you see. I do not believe that Traveller is one to just go and "smite" people, though; nor do I think he can do so indirectly; it would have to be a challenge of a sort. The question I posed was not if he existed and I was "allowed" in any shape or form to do what I'm doing, but for anyone interested to tell me what sort of powers they might think this specific deity might have-- in retrospect I should've been more concise and specific in my original post; I didn't realize I would have so much adversity to the concept.
wraithstrike 03-19-08, 09:07 PM	For the purposes of my setting, we assume that the deities exist in one form or another, possibly being on another plane entirely. My players will eventually meet him, and not a disguised version of himself-- for reasons I can't relate presently due to them being secret within the campaign-- but the actual being himself; a semblance of a very empowered changeling (along the lines of an Inspired/Kalashtar's aural appearence). And given that there isn't a base set of knowledge for the existance of the various deities in the Eberron pantheon, I am going to assume henceforth that they are in substantial form and do have substantial abilities. The Traveller is not such a gambler as some of the more light-hearted thief-worshipped deities, but I assume will accept a challenge (on respectable grounds). Obviously, as you pointed out, he's not "marching boldly" into anything; none of the deities are. However, in this adventure I am presenting an antagonist as the servant of the Traveller, and in harming the servant it angers the deity himself, you see. I do not believe that Traveller is one to just go and "smite" people, though; nor do I think he can do so indirectly; it would have to be a challenge of a sort. The question I posed was not if he existed and I was "allowed" in any shape or form to do what I'm doing, but for anyone interested to tell me what sort of powers they might think this specific deity might have-- in retrospect I should've been more concise and specific in my original post; I didn't realize I would have so much adversity to the concept. I personally don't beleive in deity slaying, not that I would not allow it. God-like creatures(so far demon/devil overlords) that I have statted are at least CR 50(max about 80). Even the deities and demigods books have them at CR's of 40, but if your god's are just powerful humanoids then suggest a CR rating that a God in your campaign would have.
Salla 03-19-08, 09:26 PM	'Said to walk the earth' and 'actually walks the earth' are two different things.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 09:42 PM	I personally don't beleive in deity slaying, not that I would not allow it. God-like creatures(so far demon/devil overlords) that I have statted are at least CR 50(max about 80). Even the deities and demigods books have them at CR's of 40, but if your god's are just powerful humanoids then suggest a CR rating that a God in your campaign would have. Not necessarily humanoid, I just said substantial. But thank you, that does help (given that I don't have that many books on hand, more in digital copy than in physical volume). 'Said to walk the earth' and 'actually walks the earth' are two different things. I know that, but that gives me enough reason to say that he actually does-- or at least that's how I justify it.
Khan the Destroyer 03-19-08, 09:49 PM	TheArtificer: I would make his challenge not really known. Instead, he might send the PC's on a series of quests or adventures, each intended to end them. He may even 'force' their hand by posing as various NPC's along the way, feeding just the right information to influence their choices. These challenges should be overcome by wits and resourcefulness, both of which he is said to appreciate. After overcoming all of the quests, they are rewarded. The reward would be a chance to defeat the Traveler himself (or an avatar, or a clever wizard, or whatever it may be). If they succeed, they can claim to have defeated a god. Of course, who in Eberron will believe that boast? I'm not sure what abilities he'd make use of in combat. He's a trickster, so perhaps illusion is appropriate. He is also a shapechanger, and revered by lycanthropes, so maybe a were-form would work. To the others that posted: Get over yourselves. Clearly you have an opinion on gods in campaigns and clearly they are not relevant to this thread. He asked for help. Either provide it or don't bother posting. All you are doing is derailing his thread with your petty attempts to control how he plays his game. It's sad. I clicked on this thread because I expected these types of responses. You guys are lame.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 10:25 PM	TheArtificer: I would make his challenge not really known. Instead, he might send the PC's on a series of quests or adventures, each intended to end them. He may even 'force' their hand by posing as various NPC's along the way, feeding just the right information to influence their choices. These challenges should be overcome by wits and resourcefulness, both of which he is said to appreciate. After overcoming all of the quests, they are rewarded. The reward would be a chance to defeat the Traveler himself (or an avatar, or a clever wizard, or whatever it may be). If they succeed, they can claim to have defeated a god. Of course, who in Eberron will believe that boast? I'm not sure what abilities he'd make use of in combat. He's a trickster, so perhaps illusion is appropriate. He is also a shapechanger, and revered by lycanthropes, so maybe a were-form would work. I've seen you before on the forums; you help people quite a bit. Thanks for lending a hand, mate. Your proposal does give me a few good ideas; though he's not out to get the PC's in general-- nor really does he have his eye on them, at least up until they meet and subsequently mess with his servant. However, I like the idea of the various mini-adventures he might force them to be on; possibly through coincidence. And though you can never truly defeat a god-like deity, the vision of defeat will probably be enough to reward them for their efforts, yes. I don't think it's the "Woo! We defeated a god!" aspect that attracts the players, but more the feeling of accomplishment. Thereby, I think that the killing of the servant would serve best in terms of that; while defeating the deity himself would merely be a means to an end-- their reward, that is. As for his abilities-- definitely clever illusions; possibly creation (as he does preside over a realm of that) and definitely shapechanges; including some monsterous ones meant to ward off the players. All in all, you've helped a good bit in terms of what I should do with both the plot and him as an antagonist. Thank you kindly.
Sunic_Flames 03-19-08, 10:31 PM	I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but anything that can shapeshift is a potential ally.
TheArtificer 03-19-08, 10:38 PM	So maybe I'd stat him as a doppelganger rogue/chameleon with a 60 point buy or the like (in addition to doppelganger ability mods). He's killable, by the way: if the PCs successfully poke him full of enough holes with pointy bits of metal, he bleeds and dies, and leaves a corpse behind. However, 1) he might be quite powerful -- if not powerful beyond (strained) mortal explanation, and 2) if he really was the Traveller in mortal form, they didn't actually kill the deity -- just an avatar, manifestation, disguise, or whatever-you-call-it of the deity. Wow. Your post made me blink; I didn't even see it. Sorry about that, was too busy with the naysayers. Though actually? You've just given me some very good ideas, so thanks man. If you've got any more ideas like that (and/or bits of plot gold like that), feel free to distribute them as you see fit. I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but anything that can shapeshift is a potential ally. Wait. What?
Alter_Boy 03-20-08, 01:44 AM	Here's your stats: CN Medium Humanoid (Shapeshifter) Init +1,000 Senses Listen +100 Spot +100 Languages All AC: X+1, where is the total roll of any attack against him HP: 1,000,000 Fast Healing: X, where X is damage dealt to it since last turn Saves: Yes. Speed: 2x(Distance he needs to go) Melee +1 Power of Divinity +X/+X/+X, where X is the target's AC (Y/Y/Y. where Y is his opponent's life total +10) Reach X, where X is the distance between you and target Wizard Spells Known: All Spell Slots Available: Yes. Spell Resistance: Yes Feats: All Skills: Yes Possessions: Anything
TheArtificer 03-20-08, 02:02 AM	Here's your stats: Huh. Interesting proposal. Don't quite know if you're being serious or joking.
sciborg3 03-20-08, 11:58 AM	It's strange that people are getting offended by someone else's desire to stat gods. :confused:
TheArtificer 03-20-08, 12:18 PM	It's strange that people are getting offended by someone else's desire to stat gods. :confused: I know, right? But it's mostly about people saying that it's impossible (which may or may not stem from a healthy respect for the unknown) or telling me to do it myself. Which, again, that's their own thoughts on it. They're entitled to it; but should realize that it's not constructive to thrust such thoughts on me-- especially so bluntly.
Edymnion 03-20-08, 01:36 PM	Well, one of the entire points to Eberron religion is precisely that the gods either do not exist, or are so remote that no one in the mortal realm, and no being that has access to the mortal realm, has ever directly interacted with them. To literally put an Eberron god walking around would be like, well... I was going to say something equally absurd about Faerun, but realized there isn't anything odd enough to not happen in Faerun and be considered normal. Anyway, point is, just because the gods don't interact doesn't mean people don't think they do. You can cast spells that normally let you communicate with your god, and it works just fine in Eberron. But it generally isn't the god answering, but a powerful being (like a Solar) answering for them. The Traveller is especially good for leaving things open ended. He's a shapeshifter of literally godly ability. Literally anything in any sourcebook you ever read could be him. Or it could be exactly what it looks like. The idea is to put in strong evidence that it was literally the Traveller walking amongst mortals. Then put in equally strong evidence saying it wasn't. That leaves the question up in the air, and allows the characters to make up their own minds about if it was really him or not. Off the top of my head, just make a high level changling cleric of the Traveller that goes around acting like he thinks the Traveller would act, out of emulation. That alone could account for many, many tales of the big guy running around.
TheArtificer 03-20-08, 01:48 PM	Well, one of the entire points to Eberron religion is precisely that the gods either do not exist, or are so remote that no one in the mortal realm, and no being that has access to the mortal realm, has ever directly interacted with them. To literally put an Eberron god walking around would be like, well... I was going to say something equally absurd about Faerun, but realized there isn't anything odd enough to not happen in Faerun and be considered normal. Anyway, point is, just because the gods don't interact doesn't mean people don't think they do. You can cast spells that normally let you communicate with your god, and it works just fine in Eberron. But it generally isn't the god answering, but a powerful being (like a Solar) answering for them. The Traveller is especially good for leaving things open ended. He's a shapeshifter of literally godly ability. Literally anything in any sourcebook you ever read could be him. Or it could be exactly what it looks like. The idea is to put in strong evidence that it was literally the Traveller walking amongst mortals. Then put in equally strong evidence saying it wasn't. That leaves the question up in the air, and allows the characters to make up their own minds about if it was really him or not. Off the top of my head, just make a high level changling cleric of the Traveller that goes around acting like he thinks the Traveller would act, out of emulation. That alone could account for many, many tales of the big guy running around. And yet another person I've seen before! Thanks for the input, very much appreciated. That is actually essentially what I'm doing; the servant of the Traveller and his status as a changling (I probably should've mentioned earlier that the the Traveller's servant is, indeed, a shapeshifter himself) does lead to some rather confusing assumptions-- or at least, I hope it will. At any rate, you've also given me some insight into Eberron's religious standings. Obviously, given that I don't have the faiths of eberron supplement, I didn't know it was the way it was. But knowing that now, I rather like the idea of questioning the validity of religion in Eberron. Thanks again.
equallathe 03-20-08, 03:53 PM	I agree with Edymnion (hopefully I've interpreted her/him properly). Think of all those books/movies where the ending has been left deliberately vague, with the audience left to draw their own conclusions. That's the best way to deal with any divine power in Eberron. Maybe the myths and stories about the Traveller are so enduring because the people are so desperately grasping for even the slightest contact with a deity (even if it's a hooded figure on the road). It'd suit the Traveller's portfolio to be distant, barely-glimpsed and mysterious on one hand, while even the lowliest commoner could've passed him on the street without ever being sure (and perhaps take comfort from that thought). Anyway, sorry if this reads a bit chaotic ... I'm just brainstorming, I guess.
Edymnion 03-20-08, 04:38 PM	Maybe the myths and stories about the Traveller are so enduring because the people are so desperately grasping for even the slightest contact with a deity (even if it's a hooded figure on the road). It'd suit the Traveller's portfolio to be distant, barely-glimpsed and mysterious on one hand, while even the lowliest commoner could've passed him on the street without ever being sure (and perhaps take comfort from that thought).Without trying to get into real life religion, I sort of have to here. Eberron religions are much like real life religion. No one has solid proof that their god exists. Each faith has writings, stories, miracles, etc, but no one has unquestionable scientific proof that their god is real. Thats why its called faith. The Constantine movie put it best, IMO. "You don't believe, you know." The ancient greeks believed that Zeus would come knock up their women, tell stories about how it happened and the lives of the children it produced, but that doesn't mean it actually happened. Just that people believed it did. And that is the key to Eberron religion, belief. There is no proof that you are right and they are wrong. It could be that there are real gods granting you divine power, or its equally likely that it is your own strength of belief that generates that power. No one knows for sure. Just like the real world, if a tornado destroys every house on the block, but leaves yours completely untouched, did God intervene to protect your home, or was it a fluke of nature? In the end, there is no way to completely prove or dissprove either side, and it becomes a matter of faith. Thats one of the things that makes Eberron special. Religions have actual faith.. Other settings, you can get proof that your god exists, and you can have proof that if you do X and pay a tribute of Y, your god will reward you. Thats not religion, thats government. You follow the rules and pay your taxes, and the government will help protect you from things like natural disasters and invasions. By flat out giving undeniable proof that a god exists, any god, you strip that layer away. Just like if you give undeniable proof that they don't exist you strip it away. The magic comes in not being sure. Like Futurama said, "If you do too much, the people become dependant on you. If you do too little, they lose hope. If you do it just right, they aren't sure if you've done anything at all." No one person, or even group in Eberron will ever know for a fact, one way or the other, and any "proof" for one side has a counterpart for the other thats just as solid. And just like in the real world, each individual has to weigh their options and choose which side they want to believe.
TheArtificer 03-20-08, 05:15 PM	Without trying to get into real life religion, I sort of have to here. Eberron religions are much like real life religion. No one has solid proof that their god exists. Each faith has writings, stories, miracles, etc, but no one has unquestionable scientific proof that their god is real. Thats why its called faith. The Constantine movie put it best, IMO. "You don't believe, you know." Wow. This definitely humbled my view on my ideas. Thanks for the input; I'm always glad to be able to see things a bit more clearly, and now I realize that you're right-- it makes for an overall better experience if there is a degree of uncertainty. In fact, this now gives my adventure in the making some duality-- and my players are of mixed thoughts on religion, so this should make for some very interesting play. Thanks again mate-- and again to equallathe, JulesCARV, and Khan the Destroyer. You've all been a great help thus far.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-08, 06:10 PM	Edy did a better job of explaining it than I did earlier, but I'll add something else which Faiths of Eberron talks about and which isn't necessarily apparent from other material: Even among those people of Eberron who do hold that the Host and the Six exist as actual beings and who often associate certain imagery with each, they're regarded as transcendent forces of nature rather than personified ones in the vein of Deities and Demigods. The blacksmith praying to Onatar as he works isn't sending his prayer to "some guy out there who watches over craftsmanship" - the very act of craftsmanship which he is engaging in right now *is* Onatar, just as the Devourer isn't "some guy out there who throws storms around", the storms *are* the Devourer. Essentially, the god and its portfolio are one and the same, rather than the more standard-to-D&D arrangement of a god basically being a high-powered administrator of whatever. The Traveler is an oddball in that he alone among them is thought to have a personified aspect as well as or instead of being transcendent, but even if it's thought that he might be "somewhere out there", it's a matter of faith that this is true, not something which can ever be decisively proven.
CryoSilver 03-20-08, 07:17 PM	If you want tostat out the Traveler, why not start with Olidammara's stats and modify somewhat? He's another god of mischeif, so I imagine he'd be set up in largely the same manner as the Traveler, with less emphasis on shapechanging, but even that'sas simple as swapping out DSA.
ArcTan 03-20-08, 08:39 PM	Please, no D&DG style stats for deities. They don't even make sense for the settings that *do* have Olympus-style meddling deities. Run him like you would the Lady of Pain in Sigil. He shows up, he does stuff, he goes away. His stats are irrelevant because he's always capable of whatever the DM wants him to be capable of.
Dselby86 03-21-08, 12:38 AM	I would take the 3.0 Dieties and demigod's and look at farlangan and Oldimara and combine the two. I'm acctually working on stating the traveler too, I got bard 20, and beguiler 20, as far as saliant divine abilites, probally the various travel power, alter reality and the shapchanger ones, and bard powers. If you have any better ideas, let me know
TheArtificer 03-21-08, 01:14 AM	ArcTan: I'll check into that; I've actually not heard of that particular character. Dselby86 and CyroSilver: At this point, I've decided not to necessarily give him true statistics-- I don't have any rule lawyers/nazis in my PC group-- and rather just give him certain abilities-- or for that matter, just give his servant abilities akin to what the Traveller might have. But I'll take these into consideration for the point. Neutronium_Dragon: Thanks for the valuable input. I never really looked at it that way either-- though that is why I picked the Traveller; because he is the only one rumored to be his own rather than of the pantheon in the conventional sense. I'll take that into account though. Thanks all for your input thus far, again~
Half_Dragon_Infernal 03-21-08, 10:37 PM	One thing I have to add: There is one "real" god in Ebberon. The Silver Flame. Try and throw them in, there is still bad blood between them and shapechangers.
TheArtificer 03-22-08, 12:27 AM	One thing I have to add: There is one "real" god in Ebberon. The Silver Flame. Try and throw them in, there is still bad blood between them and shapechangers. That... is yet another good point I'd not thought of. Silver Flame is rather adamant in their standings, and shapechangers have always been alert to their adversity in mainstream society. Thanks for the tip.
ArcTan 03-22-08, 06:33 AM	One thing I have to add: There is one "real" god in Ebberon. The Silver Flame. Try and throw them in, there is still bad blood between them and shapechangers. The Silver Flame is not actually a "real" god, in terms of Deities and Demigods statted-out deities. It can't do any of the things a being with divine stats can -- it just exists as a physical focus of worship for the CotSF that has a few McGuffin-type special powers (like giving the Keeper extra Cleric levels).
TheArtificer 03-22-08, 11:08 AM	Oh I know that, of course. But it is true that the CotSF has a bit more tangible power from their form of religion than someone who, say, worships the Mockery.