Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kayoz_Majick 01-04-08, 05:44 PM	I was wondering what possible effects it would have on a world if I made all of the dieties non-active. As in, they only give out spells and that is about it. Sometimes, they might send out an avatar or other psuedo-divine creation to set things right if something gets really Fubar'd.... Second thing, also considering doing away with specific portfolios, and instead having "pure" gods... fire, water, magic, life, death, etc.... Just trying this out here before I incoperate this into my world and screw everything up!
zacnn 01-06-08, 04:00 PM	Sounds somewhat like the Dragonlance world in a few of the 5 ages. Except no gods gave out power. They did send out avatars though for mortals to find the gods agein.
Dragonlord20000 01-06-08, 04:28 PM	Check out Eberron
Romtos 01-06-08, 04:57 PM	Check out Eberron Interesting idea. Eberron is the most modern-world like D&D. Innovative inventions. Trains and airships. Streetlights. Messenger systems. Robots. And it goes on. World with more meddling of the gods seem much more medieval. It's barbarish and backward. All because of supreme powers. If one would remove all magic and divinity from Eberron, I think we would see a western society with computers, planes and guns, within a thousand years. Just like our non-magic non-divine society. Even more so, people in the world would play table top RPG's of their world how it was a thousand years ago. :D
Kayoz_Majick 01-06-08, 06:54 PM	Well, I guess then that it would be somewhat similar to Eberron, but I wanted something a little less technical in nature. I like the more magical feel of a "typical" D&D world, but I just wanted to explore some ideas before I implemented them into the world I am making. I was really just curious if anyone else had any thoughts on what a more magical in nature world would work like if the gods were not only more "pure" in nature and didn't really have an active role.
faghter_hero 01-06-08, 06:58 PM	That spelion cosmology (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=970014) I did a while back could work as a near-godless system. A pseudo-divine creature can exist in a similarly aligned plane and take multiple forms, making it easy to mistake for a god. Without constant interference from gods, why have them hand out spells at all? Philosophers could take the place of clerics, and their ideologies have their own domains if you want a cleric equivalent. You could also use Commoner NPCs as mundane clergy to show the difference. Perhaps some are philosophers themselves, who have used the power of ideology to support their religions with Divine magic.
Warweaver 01-06-08, 07:37 PM	I think what you're trying to do is very similar to what I've done in my campaign world. In mine, a massive meteor called the Lodestone fell to earth many years ago, and it basically changed the planar traits - severing the world's inter-planar connections. Plane Shift, Teleport, and Astral Projection don't work (among others). Fiends, githyanki, and other outsiders who were there at the time found themselves unable to leave. Even the gods were suddenly unable to send avatars, and their communes came out garbled or cryptic. The reason why gods in my world still grant spells is they are genuinely worried about being cut off entirely from their own plane. Gods need worshipers to survive. This also means the clerics/paladins/etc. of my world work even more off faith, and do not immediately lose their spells or abilities for doing something against their code (it takes great effort for a god to spy on their followers through the Lodestone). It's even allowed atheists to pop up - people who believe priests are just a different kind of wizard. If you want it to be a "this is how it's always been" kind of thing, I see two options. One is that your gods' personalities are unified in believing it takes a "light touch" to get worshipers on your world. Any god who manifested an avatar or interfered directly would face the wrath of the others. The other option is to just have "no avatars" or "gods only grant spells" be a planar trait of your world. Simple, it's that way because it always has been. From my experience not having active gods doesn't do much that's negative - it just frees up the world to be more focused on the mortals doing heroic things, instead of Wiz20/Ftr20 portfolios-made-flesh walking around like they own the place. :P
Kayoz_Majick 01-06-08, 07:51 PM	Without constant interference from gods, why have them hand out spells at all? Philosophers could take the place of clerics, and their ideologies have their own domains if you want a cleric equivalent. You could also use Commoner NPCs as mundane clergy to show the difference. Perhaps some are philosophers themselves, who have used the power of ideology to support their religions with Divine magic. This is a very good point. What I was going for in look and feel, however, was to have the effects of the "pure form" gods showing in all aspects of the material plane. The god of fire shows up everytime someone lights a fire, much less casts fireball. The god of life in every birth, the god of death... well, that one is obvious. Undead can be explained through the god of magic, etc. Clerics would worship one particular god, but magic comes from the manipulation of every diety through the conduit of thier particular diety. Mages would "worship" the god of magic directly, thus being able to cast magic, etc.... druids would worship the god of nature, which represents the balance of the four elemental gods and life and death as well. Nature wouldn't include magic or psionics, which exist on the outside of everything... Here is a picture (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=godsow9.jpg) of what I had in mind. The magic and psionic gods are sort of like pillars between life and death; thus undeath, nature encompasses good/evil, law/chaos, fire/water, earth/air all in a balance. Luck is a factor, but expressed in nature as such.
Kayoz_Majick 01-06-08, 08:00 PM	I think what you're trying to do is very similar to what I've done in my campaign world. In mine, a massive meteor called the Lodestone fell to earth many years ago, and it basically changed the planar traits - severing the world's inter-planar connections. Plane Shift, Teleport, and Astral Projection don't work (among others). Fiends, githyanki, and other outsiders who were there at the time found themselves unable to leave. Even the gods were suddenly unable to send avatars, and their communes came out garbled or cryptic. The reason why gods in my world still grant spells is they are genuinely worried about being cut off entirely from their own plane. Gods need worshipers to survive. This also means the clerics/paladins/etc. of my world work even more off faith, and do not immediately lose their spells or abilities for doing something against their code (it takes great effort for a god to spy on their followers through the Lodestone). It's even allowed atheists to pop up - people who believe priests are just a different kind of wizard. If you want it to be a "this is how it's always been" kind of thing, I see two options. One is that your gods' personalities are unified in believing it takes a "light touch" to get worshipers on your world. Any god who manifested an avatar or interfered directly would face the wrath of the others. The other option is to just have "no avatars" or "gods only grant spells" be a planar trait of your world. Simple, it's that way because it always has been. From my experience not having active gods doesn't do much that's negative - it just frees up the world to be more focused on the mortals doing heroic things, instead of Wiz20/Ftr20 portfolios-made-flesh walking around like they own the place. :P I like your ideas here, although for what I have in mind, it is an "always been" not from some outside force.
JulesCARV 01-06-08, 10:33 PM	Some ideas: 1. The spread of heresy and schism: Does Hextor want all infidels to be burnt at the stake, or would he suffer them to live as slaves so long as they don't practice their chaos- and good-tainted divine magic? They can't ask Hextor now, and if sincere Hextor-worshipping divine spellcasters on both sides continue to receive spells, it's hard to tell who's right about what the (rather inaccessible) Hextor wants. This could lead to disagreements about how to best serve the deity, leading to heresies and schisms. 2. An increase in logical inquiry: Questions are no longer answered by asking the gods. "Let's ask Pelor!" is no longer a valid answer to "what's the right thing to do in my circumstances?" Without easy answers at hand from the gods, questions of alignment, morality, and ethics are probed at a deeper level than previously considered. Of course, without divine guidance, casuistry could also be on the rise. 3. The rise of other forces that influence religion in lieu of direct divine guidance: Since Corellon no longer directly determines doctrines, other influences might arise, such a politics, economic interests, etc. In one area, a group of orcs has established trading relations with elves, and so soon the elves' clerics are saying that Gruumsh and Corellon have finally mended their fences, and while elves should always be wary and ready to defend themselves if those orcs every betray them, for now peace is Corellon's will. In another area, some elves are facing an orcish invasion, so their priests say that Corellon's will is that every orc should be slain without mercy.
Kayoz_Majick 01-07-08, 12:59 AM	Some ideas: 1. The spread of heresy and schism: I like this idea. Who can say what the gods truly wish, when they don't pick up on the hotline? 2. An increase in logical inquiry: I have a house rule of loose alignments: for example a gold dragon isn't automatically lawful good or a red dragon automatically chaotic evil. This doesn't let my PC's have a set attitude as soon as they see a "bad guy" 3. The rise of other forces that influence religion in lieu of direct divine guidance: I like this idea also. It gives me some good ideas for non-religeous political powers. ( which brings me to start another thread on the campaign forums :P)
Artifact 01-07-08, 01:44 AM	There is a 2nd edition supplement for Dark Sun, called Earth, Air, Fire, and Water (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/darkSun/v5748btpy7mia). The back cover reads: On a world filled with no gods, what do the priests serve? Athasian priests worship no gods, collect no followers. The supplement describes elemental priests who serve the elements. I thought this might be of interest here, since you mention taking a more "pure" approach to the divine. If nothing else, it might serve as a solid source of inspiration for you. Its been years since I last "dug in", but I remember I enjoyed it immensely; it helped ultimately sell the setting to me.
Kayoz_Majick 01-07-08, 01:50 AM	I'll check it out, thanks!
faghter_hero 01-07-08, 12:48 PM	Some ideas: 1. The spread of heresy and schism: Does Hextor want all infidels to be burnt at the stake, or would he suffer them to live as slaves so long as they don't practice their chaos- and good-tainted divine magic? They can't ask Hextor now, and if sincere Hextor-worshipping divine spellcasters on both sides continue to receive spells, it's hard to tell who's right about what the (rather inaccessible) Hextor wants. This could lead to disagreements about how to best serve the deity, leading to heresies and schisms. 2. An increase in logical inquiry: Questions are no longer answered by asking the gods. "Let's ask Pelor!" is no longer a valid answer to "what's the right thing to do in my circumstances?" Without easy answers at hand from the gods, questions of alignment, morality, and ethics are probed at a deeper level than previously considered. Of course, without divine guidance, casuistry could also be on the rise. 3. The rise of other forces that influence religion in lieu of direct divine guidance: Since Corellon no longer directly determines doctrines, other influences might arise, such a politics, economic interests, etc. In one area, a group of orcs has established trading relations with elves, and so soon the elves' clerics are saying that Gruumsh and Corellon have finally mended their fences, and while elves should always be wary and ready to defend themselves if those orcs every betray them, for now peace is Corellon's will. In another area, some elves are facing an orcish invasion, so their priests say that Corellon's will is that every orc should be slain without mercy. Another huge change: governance and hierarchy. Without a supporting god, religious organizations will have to fend for themselves. They have to rely on mortal leadership to coordinate activities and teachings to counter problems like herecies. That means devoting more resources to sustaining the organization economically, socially, and politically, catering to influences described in 3. Churches start to function more like franchises or corporations, competing for business and absorbing one another. Soon you get the formation of miniature kingdoms, empires, conclaves, or even republics within these religions as their power grows. The bigger the governance, the more rich and powerful its leaders become, and the more complicated the culture surrounding it becomes. This can slowly erode the absolute power of existing monarchies throughout your campaign world, or help to unify a lot of disparate nations (for better or worse). Like in number 3, you could start to see some unlikely conglomerate pantheons, like a single church worshiping Hextor and Heironeous at the same time, because the Heironeous church conquered the local temple of Hextor and wanted to maintain the number of followers (say they were facing bankruptcy). Heironeous starts to look a bit nastier and bloodier (but he's still a good guy), and simultaneously, Hextor eases up on tyranny and takes on the role of a defender of the people- these stem from efforts to satisfy everyone while ensuring the doctrines of Heironeous have priority. Then you have something like two Battle Priests, one for each god, overlooking the kingdom's politics as though they belonged to nobility. You can be sure the bulk of the church's policies will be devoted to keeping these two guys in charge, and that means keeping a whole lot of "undesirables" out of the clergy for good. Changes like this could really affect Paladins and Monks, since they rely on the rules of their orders so much. You could say they have to be carefully managed, lest they become the source for the next schism.
Naderion 01-10-08, 04:48 AM	I was wondering what possible effects it would have on a world if I made all of the dieties non-active. As in, they only give out spells and that is about it. Sometimes, they might send out an avatar or other psuedo-divine creation to set things right if something gets really Fubar'd.... Second thing, also considering doing away with specific portfolios, and instead having "pure" gods... fire, water, magic, life, death, etc.... Just trying this out here before I incoperate this into my world and screw everything up! That's how things work in my setting. There doesn't really change much, except that churches have to sort out their internal conflicts alone, there won't appear a divine messenger and tell them what the deity really wants. Sects and Shisms would be much more common than in a world, were the deities are the actual heads of their churches.
Kayoz_Majick 01-10-08, 04:45 PM	That's how things work in my setting. There doesn't really change much, except that churches have to sort out their internal conflicts alone, there won't appear a divine messenger and tell them what the deity really wants. Sects and Shisms would be much more common than in a world, were the deities are the actual heads of their churches. I still like this idea. There would be no commune or anything like that for Instant Answers for difficult situations the PCs might answer. No more... Get Out of Jail Free cards or waiting for their God to intervene when the going gets tough. I think that I am going to incoporate this into the world that I have in mind. Any other thoughts out there?