Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 05-24-07, 12:06 PM	I was reading through the Complete Champion this morning, I was reading about the churches and the beliefs of their followers. This led to a question. If we have several dark gods, namely, Erythul, god of Slaughter, Hextor, god of Tyranny, Nerull God of death, Vecna god of secrets, and Lloth the Demon goddess of the Drow, Why do we have if we have the demon lords Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz’ztt to name a few, and the arch devils Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub to name a few more. What is there to differentiate Lloth from Baphomet? They are both patrons of particular races. Why are there evil gods, and demons and devils? In terms of a cosmic punishment/reward system don’t they serve the same purpose? Do we need both? I am curious to hear what people think.
Witch 05-24-07, 12:56 PM	Evil gods require belief. They are connected to the existence of mortals and prime material worlds. Demons and devils do not. They are there. They exemplify their alignment, are born and made from it. Even an evil god is not as thorough in their utter vileness as a fiend.
Khael 05-24-07, 01:24 PM	In terms of spirit of the game answer, what Witch said. In terms of metagaming, evil Gods are the ultimate. They can strip your life with a thoguht, destroy you from miles away, hit you with spells you can only dream of, and why? Because they're gods. Once you've applied the term god to something it grants a sense of near-invincibility. The term Archfiend doesn't so much - it suggest a monster whose a cut above the rest, but still takable. This is until you add in the history, backstories, etc of course, but the short hand answer that comes to mind is: Archfiends are made for beating, Gods for foiling the plans of. (No, I don't agree with this as a rule, but in terms of how DMs use it, it seems to be. You can always find character Y who beat Archfiend X or is 'going' to later in the game, rarely do you find a character who actually slew a full-on god in a D&D game on these boards, least to my knowledge.)
Darth Syntax 05-24-07, 01:32 PM	It's also a matter of scope. The gods are primarily concerned with their mortal followers whereas the Archfiends (and their counterparts of other alignments) are more concerned with the overall cosmos. Generally speaking, when it comes to cosmic importance the gods play second fiddle to the exemplars and the outsider-lords.
Witch 05-24-07, 01:34 PM	Also, through their concern with followers, Gods are generally limited to a specific number of worlds, while Archfiends have no such limitation, and are exemplars of forces which work across all those worlds.
ripvanwormer 05-24-07, 03:27 PM	What is there to differentiate Lloth from Baphomet? They are both patrons of particular races. Nothing. They're both demon lords who became patrons of particular races. Lolth is slightly more powerful, that's all. There is no difference in their essential nature, but Lolth's a bad example, since she's a demon and a lord of the Abyss as well as an intermediate goddess. Now, Vecna and Erythnul, they're different from Baphomet and Lolth in that they don't rule layers of the Abyss, and they're not demons. In terms of a cosmic punishment/reward system don’t they serve the same purpose? No. There is no cosmic punishment/reward system (Baator aside). Lolth doesn't punish those followers who she deems worthy, and neither does Baphomet, Vecna, Erythnul, Nerull, Bane, Shar, Graz'zt, or Demogorgon. Sure, they might torture those they find unworthy, or torture souls simply for fun, but they also offer infinite pleasure to those they favor. Every realm in the Outer Planes is a heaven, whether it's good or evil. Hextor's realm is a paradise for his faithful, and so is Orcus's. It's just as much a paradise as Heironeous's realm, or Morwel's, or Apollo's. All gods reward those who perform acts that they approve of and punish those who displease them. To answer your question, no, you don't need both fiends and evil gods. You don't need both celestials and good gods, either, and you don't need both Erythnul and Gruumsh, or both Maglubiyet and Hextor. But that's the wrong question. The question should be, "Are these characters interesting enough to include in my campaign?" Sure, you can pare down redundancies to get the smallest number of gods possible, but why? If you like the demon lords, and you like the evil gods, there's more than enough room for both.
James The Bruce 05-24-07, 03:49 PM	According to dieties and demi gods the defualt pantheon, pelor, hextor etc, do not require mortal worship to exist but do strongly desire it as it does add to thier power base. I would think wherever there is mortal life gods will seed thier minions (clerics, paladins, blackguard, divine champions, etc) to spread thier theology to gain converts so they get pretty much everywhere. As for their importance or the overlap your talking of it depends how you or your DM wants to run the campaign(cannot spell forgive please). Both devils and demons seem to desire souls as a type of currency, amusement, food or to add to thier powerbase. On worlds or prime's where a given God's worshippers exist worshippers god's of a given pantheon would demand an accounting from the souls who die. Your Dm would have to explain who gets what, who fights over the souls if any conflct results over them, where souls go in the afterlife and what cosmology is being used.
sciborg2 05-24-07, 04:38 PM	The answer varies on the type of game running: 1. For some, gods are dependent on mortal belief while fiends are older and elemental forces of alignment who perhaps depend on their planes/layers for power. As such gods represent mortal ideas about different forces and are tied to these ideas, whereas exemplars like fiends are more primal. Why do it this way? Because it allows mortals to feel special because they help keep gods alive while fearing the fiends who are the epitome of Evil as a living force. Check out Hellbound the Planescape supplement for ideas on using this to fiendish advantage. Or Shemmy's excellent story hour. On the other hand, it diminishes the potency of the divine as Source rather than Side-Effect. Also, no mysterious secret forgotten gods though these can become planar lords capable of granting spells or just anomalous gods. 2. Like above, but fiends are more about the general evil. Fiends want there to be a lot of evil, as they do depend on mortals but not for belief. They depend on mortal alignment to sustain them, so mo' evil == mo' power. Here without sentient beings, and perhaps Prime mortals in particular, the Outer Planes cease to exist. Planescape iirc makes it unclear if exemplars depend on mortals in a similar manner to gods. I took it that gods are the top tier beings in the multiverse with a perhaps ironic dependence on belief but the risk is fading into an Astral corpse if your believers disappear. This makes everything in the Outerplanes at least center of mortals on the Prime in some sense. All gods/planar-lords are in the human heart and all that Gaiman/Campbell jazz. 3. Gods are the true creators and inspirations or at least custodians of their respective portfolios. Nerull *is* plague, Boccob *is* magic. Fiends are nothing more than servants and general weaklings compared to gods -- the petty games of fiends are nothing to the gods. This brings us closer to 2e Monster Mythology, which had the relationship between worshippers and gods left as a mystery and the top archfiends were lesser gods. In 2e, even Planescape, archfiends generally had 140 or so HP save the Lords o' Nine which were bigger than gods. Pretty much what above posters have said. Foil a god but kill an archfiend. Essentially the turnover rate is expected to be higher for archfiends. 4. My personal way: Gods are like 3, but fiends also have their place as purveyors of a general malaise of Evil. Gods want you to evil, but also be evil in their way - promotion of the portfolio. Fiends just need you to be evil period. If a distinction can be made, its Gods are a conduit between mortals and the Other whereas fiends are simply children of the Other. Suddenly everyone is vying for a piece of the cosmic pie on relatively equal footing. This makes things interesting if you like lots of players on the planar field. Here a god of necromancy is spreading necromancy as much as worship. I limit archfiends by not giving them the ability to grant spells beyond a few favored souls, they just don't have the ability to interact so directly with mortal worshippers. Gods can grant clerical spells and can also influence reality in terms of at times answering prayers for crop cycles, protecting worshippers in battle, etc. What gods exactly are is a mystery - its not that archfiends can't kill at least some gods (on their layers...maybe) but the question is what exactly empowers a god? The source of archfiends - their layers, is known, but whether they are servants or at least children of the Alignments as living things is unknown. Basically gods want to bleed themselves into reality, fiends want to drag reality into the lower planes. Fiends get annoyed by gods who take souls into their realms and vice-versa, though in the end it usually works out well enough for both sides as a realm is still part of their plane. 5. Explain nothing. Nobody really knows the difference and its all part of the Mystery. if you're not playing in campaigns where the distinction matters just ignore it. Archfiends are just gods of fiendish races perhaps instead of mortal ones.
The Serge7 05-24-07, 04:55 PM	Chapter One of The Gates of Hell addresses the differences between divine beings (like gods) and cosmic entities (like arch-fiends). Most of what has been described above will be echoed there, but I see the two groups as more-or-less equal in different ways. While gods have an interest and greater influence over the manner in which evil is perceived in the prime material plane, arch-fiends are Evil in the cosmic, macro-sense; i.e., there are thousands of gods of tyranny or gods of war on thousands of different worlds (often, a score or so on a given world); there's only one Asmodeus and only one Bel (if you associate the Lords of the Nine as representing different aspects of cosmic Lawful Evil).
Rerecros 05-24-07, 09:15 PM	In Eberron there is a vast difference between powerful fiends and evil gods. Gods are ascendant statless beings, whose influence is so grand it's impossible to tell what actions they are responsible for, that or they don't exist. Powerful fiends are just outsiders with a lot of HD, having worshippers is mostly an ego thing, though they can be useful, in worshipping them you may actually recieve something tangible in return, though theres always a price.
Tequila_Sunrise 05-24-07, 09:43 PM	Do we need both? I am curious to hear what people think. Most definately not. But not needing things has never stopped people from glutting themselves on the myriad of unnecessary things in our lives. If you don't like something change it; after all, it's just a game of pretend.
DreadArchon 05-25-07, 05:01 PM	I've seen it analogized on these boards that "Gods are like politicians, competing for popular support, while archfiends are like corporate executives, competing for a market share." And that's how I've thought of them ever since.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-25-07, 06:00 PM	The answer varies on the type of game running: 1. For some, gods are dependent on mortal belief while fiends are older and elemental forces of alignment who perhaps depend on their planes/layers for power. As such gods represent mortal ideas about different forces and are tied to these ideas, whereas exemplars like fiends are more primal. Why do it this way? Because it allows mortals to feel special because they help keep gods alive while fearing the fiends who are the epitome of Evil as a living force. Check out Hellbound the Planescape supplement for ideas on using this to fiendish advantage. Or Shemmy's excellent story hour. *GRIN* Planescape iirc makes it unclear if exemplars depend on mortals in a similar manner to gods. It was stressed numerous times that gods were dependent on belief, in that without it they'd fade and eventually slip into the Astral, but it was never mentioned in context of the exemplars. However at the same time it was mentioned that mortal belief could potentially alter the exemplars if a critical threshold of sorts was reached: ie the 'loths since they'd tied themselves down to their planes so absolutely, they themselves could be changed if the multiversal conception of what Evil was were to change. Within reason I could go with this, but I'd leave a core part of their being remain inviolate, especially so for the exemplars who don't generate from petitioners. In 2e, even Planescape, archfiends generally had 140 or so HP save the Lords o' Nine which were bigger than gods. Planes of Chaos had stats for Graz'zt and Pazuzu, but I think it can really be argued that it was little more than a lingering holdover from 1e at that point. It was the first time 2e had approached the Abyssal Lords formally, and early on in Planescape they hadn't yet divested themselves of that gygaxian influence and grown into something else.
The Serge7 05-25-07, 06:05 PM	Planes of Chaos had stats for Graz'zt and Pazuzu, but I think it can really be argued that it was little more than a lingering holdover from 1e at that point. It was the first time 2e had approached the Abyssal Lords formally, and early on in Planescape they hadn't yet divested themselves of that gygaxian influence and grown into something else. IIRC, Planes of Chaos came out after Monster Mythology which featured avatars for Demogorgon, Baphomet, Juiblex, Yeenoghu and other former demon princes and demon lords, so the "lingering holdover from 1e" was over by the time PS came along in this regard. And, in the same boxed set in which Graz'zt and Pazrael (who's really very different conceptually from Pazuzu), Demogorgon, Baphomet, and the others were said to be gods who were also abyssal lords. Again, PS had largely "divested" itself of "gygaxian influence" by this point.
ripvanwormer 05-25-07, 06:42 PM	IIRC, Planes of Chaos came out after Monster Mythology Those stats were originally from Iuz the Evil, though. This also came out after Monster Mythology, and was by the same designer as Monster Mythology, but it really does count as a "holdover" - not from 1e, but from 2e Greyhawk. It comes down to a difference in the styles of the various game designers. Colin McComb always avoided stats for archfiends (he provided avatar stats for the Lords of the Nine, but nothing more), while Monte Cook never had a problem with them. The difference doesn't have so much to do with 1e or 2e, or Planescape and non-Planescape, as between different Planescape designers.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 06:49 PM	Why are there evil gods, and demons and devils? In terms of a cosmic punishment/reward system don’t they serve the same purpose? There is no cosmic reward/punishment system in D&D. CE people go to the abyss, because they WANT TO BE IN THE ABYSS. To a CE person the abyss is paradise.
Rerecros 05-25-07, 07:34 PM	There is no cosmic reward/punishment system in D&D. CE people go to the abyss, because they WANT TO BE IN THE ABYSS. To a CE person the abyss is paradise. In great wheel system For a CE person to go to the abyss is not so much a paradise, but a place they can understand. Imagine a world where everyone and everything thought the way you do, is that really the kind of world you want to live in? In Eberron system When you die, you go to Dolurrh, it's not reward or punishment, just where you go. "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome." - Isaac Asimov
The Serge7 05-25-07, 07:42 PM	It comes down to a difference in the styles of the various game designers. Colin McComb always avoided stats for archfiends (he provided avatar stats for the Lords of the Nine, but nothing more), while Monte Cook never had a problem with them. The difference doesn't have so much to do with 1e or 2e, or Planescape and non-Planescape, as between different Planescape designers. Right... My point was that the comments Shemeska were making had nothing to do with edition or even consistency within PS when it comes to fiends (although I would argue that there was greater consistency when McComb seemed to be leading the charge).
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 08:16 PM	In great wheel system For a CE person to go to the abyss is not so much a paradise, but a place they can understand. Imagine a world where everyone and everything thought the way you do, is that really the kind of world you want to live in? Why yes, yes i would! Nothing would please me more. In Eberron system When you die, you go to Dolurrh, it's not reward or punishment, just where you go. "Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome." - Isaac Asimov Eberron is that way *points at eberron boards.* We talk about the great wheel and home grown cosmologies here.
XHereticX 05-26-07, 12:02 AM	ahh, srry, repetitive post.
XHereticX 05-26-07, 12:03 AM	I agree with sciborg's 1st and 2nd points. The Gods are creations of mortal belief and are dependent on it while fiends represent a more primal, evil for evil's sake type of malevolence, for them mortal worship is a neat bonus, but nothing essential. Read FC2 for some more information as to the current status of the god/archfiend relationship. Or just refer to some of the old planescape stuff.
ElyasRavenwood 05-26-07, 12:23 AM	Thank you for your thoughts Ripvanwormor. Particularly “are these characters interesting enough to include in my campaign.” If I understand you, there is no cosmic crime and punishment, their patrons gather the faithful, for whatever fate their patrons have in mind. Just out of curiosity what happens to the Atheists or Agnostics? Anyways that is a question for another thread, and the answer depends ultimately on the DM and his campaign world. . Dread Archon I've seen it analogized on these boards that "Gods are like politicians, competing for popular support, while archfiends are like corporate executives, competing for a market share." Cute ? Scriborg Foil a god but kill an archfiend. Essentially the turnover rate is expected to be higher for archfiends. Scriborg, thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out answer. I suppose this sums things up, Gods can be eternal, where as Archfiends, might just be the biggest monster in the Monster Manuals. A killable Monster. I guess I have been under the impression that the gods were “reflections” of mortal concepts such as good, evil, death, compassion, etc in a “Plato” like sense, of there being a perfect example of something. I also understood that gods in some way garnered power from worship, and thus were interested in the welfare of their worshipers and in proselytize to gather more power. A god without worshipers would fade. From what I understand from the Hordes of the Abyss, Demons arose from the Abyss itself, which is the “leftover” material from which the gods created the universe. Demons spontaneously spawned from this planar matter. They hate the rest of creation because they have the leftovers. I understand, that the Devils actively corrupt and guide mortals to a Lawful Evil alignment, whereupon they can claim the soul or spirit, of the mortal and thus gain power, because the entire structure of hell is based on the currency of hell. I suppose all of this would depend on the campaign world and what a DM would like to set up as his cosmic mythology. Thank you all for your thoughts
Johnny_Angel 05-26-07, 01:26 AM	One thing to remember about D&D is that it's a game designed with the concept that you can make the game your own, so there are a lot of things in the material that overlap with other things in the material. Do you need both evil gods and Demons & Devils? The answer is no; you don't need them. If you wanted to do away with one of the other, I doubt most people in your game would notice. In one campaign that I ran, there was an evil god I created who was loosely based on the "Lord of Darkness" from the movie Legend; he ruled over the Devils and Demons -whom he had unified in order to take over the material plane. His foot soldiers were the Daemon Warriors from the Dragonlance Setting. I suppose none of that really adds anything to the thread, but I was just giving an example of how I modified things in one game. The previously mentioned evil god was the only evil god in the campaign; the demons, devils, and daemons were his minions.
sciborg2 05-26-07, 01:34 AM	Scriborg, thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out answer. Thanks! I think a lot of this has to do with the themes you wish to convey in your campaign and one's personal feelings on myths and such. I'm trying to think of more examples for the options I listed, will post as they come...
ElyasRavenwood 05-26-07, 08:51 AM	Scriborg, I can lay out what I did when creating my own campaign world. I plagiarized. I stole. I ransacked real world mythologies. I started with creating a world map. I wanted something vaguely earthlike. My thinking was if the world is somewhat earthlike, then my players would not have to put a tremendous effort forth to learn everything. Mostly I wanted to “fill in the details for myself”. In this way, when the bard did his legend and lore roll, I would have myths and stories to tell him, and when the wizard was deciphering text on a wall, I would have a text to describe (cuneiform, hieroglyphics, pictograms, ideograms etc) and the whole thing would have a consistent feel to it. I also wanted to answer some of the “big” questions and some of the little ones to my own satisfaction for my own campaign world. I started with a world map. Since I wanted something vaguely earth like, I began goggling, (I wonder when that word will enter the dictionary, or wikipedia, or will it simply take its place next to the words Kleenex, Xerox, and Hoover), for images of earth, in the past. I was looking for images of Pangaea the super continent, and images of the earth pre Pangaea, and images of the breakup of Pangaea. I also looked for images of where the continents would be in the future, and how geologists will theorize the earth will look in 100 million years. I settled on an image of earth just after the break up of Pangaea. There was an inland sea in the middle of what is now North America; Most of South America was under a shallow sea as well. I copied the outlines of the continents, taking not of where the tectonic faults were, and on what latitudes the continents fell. I then added couple more inland seas, and a couple more continents. (The southern hemisphere has a lack of land). First I put the mountain chains in, along the subduction lines, and then I drew the rivers in starting in the mountains and ending in the seas. Next I put the climates in, with some rain shadow deserts. When I was finished I had a planet that made geological sense, was vaguely earth like, but not immediately recognizable. Next I began with a creation mythology. I decided to raid two of our more familiar mythologies for ideas. I raided Greek mythology and Judeo Christian mythology. Apologies to those for whom Judaism and Christianity is not a mythology but a reality. I am not trying to offend. Simply for the purposes of this imaginary world building exercise I found it useful to examine Judaism and Christianity through the lens of mythology. I also found a book called “Book of the Righteous” by Aaron Leob, and published by Green Ronin. In it I found a well-developed pantheon. I raided the book and took what I liked and left the rest. I also looked at various D and D books: Deities and Demigods, 1st edition and third edition, Monstrous mythologies 2nd edition, and Faiths and Pantheons 3rd edition. I felt dizzy after going through the shear volume of gods in the forgotten realms. I decided first off to have a small number of gods. I wanted a manageable pantheon. I also decided that the gods were eternal and existed independent of mortals belief, nor did they require the worship of mortals for power, I also decided that mortals could not ascend to god-hood. Well here is the creation mythology I came up with. I know it is not original. I also know it probably will seem like some warmed over Judeo Christianity with a little Greek mythology thrown in. My intention was to come up with something that seemed familiar. I took the gods names directly from the Book of the Righteous. Creation Mythology OF GODS AND TITANS The world began as a Void. There was nothing no light, darkness water air earth, fire nor time. And the creator thought “ Cogito Ergo Sum” I think there for I am”. Thus the Creator came into being. The Creator was alone. The Creator then stepped outside of itself and became two beings of one whole: The great Father and Mother. They then spoke the seven words of power “Let there be Lucius, Obscurus, Aqueus, Arius, Terrus, Ignius et Tempus” (Let there be light darkens water air earth fire and time.) With these words of power all of these things came into being. The Creator knew that the Universe could be crafted with these things. The Father and Mother then created the garden of Paradise, and walked in it. They sat and meditated upon themselves and the universe. They sat and meditated until they reached enlightenment. Then they planted the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge. It is written that if one partakes of the fruit of the tree of life one will not know death and if one partakes of the fruit of Knowledge, one will be aware of Choice and the weight of consequence. With the breath of the Father and the nurturing of the Mother these two trees grew into fullness and bore fruit. In the cool of the Garden the Father and Mother laid together. Afterwards She drew apart from the Fathers arms and She spread her toes into the earth and spread her arms into the sky, and thus became the World tree, bearing many fruit. The Father became lonely because he loved and missed his wife The Mother. He called her forth from the World Tree, and the mother stepped outside of the Tree to join her Husband. They waited for the fruit to ripen. The great Father and Mother acted upon their vision. They built seven pillars from seven of the words of power- Lucus, Obscurus, Aqueus, Arius, Terrus, Ignius et Tempus” (light darkens water air earth fire and time.) Each pillar was one of these powers in its purest form. Tempus was in the center with all of the other powers around it. (Father-Darkens, Fire, Earth) Mother (Light, Air, and Water) Both Time. Thus the elemental planes of Light (positive energy) Dark (negative energy) Water, Air, Fire and Time were crafted. They then created a great Sphere and placed it on top of the pillars. This is our Universe. At first the Universe was empty, filled with Ether, through which Light flashed and Darkness followed. And then the Creator made a central Sphere, which is our world. The great Mother took air from the pillar of Air and covered our world. The Father took fire from the pillar of Fire and spread it across the Sky; thus we have the stars. The mother then took water from the pillar of Water and covered the Sphere. The Father took earth from the pillar of earth and parted the water. Then the Father and Mother parted the Light form the Darkness and there was Day and Night. And it was all good. The Father and Mother were pleased with their Creation. However there was no life yet. The Creator went back to the Pillar of Elements, and fashioned a great wheel, which it set around the pillars. The Creator set the wheel spinning and the energy from the Elemental Pillars would power its motion. Thus the Wheel of Time was crafted. Time began to move forward Then the great Father and Mother walked in the World. Where The Mother walked trees and grass grew, where She swam, plants filled the sea. Where the Father walked animals sprung out of the earth and where He swam fish filled the seas. But they were not alive yet, So the Creator Breathed upon all and all that flew swam walked and crawled and grew in the earth and sea were given the gift of life. So the Trees swayed in the wind, and the creatures ran on the earth and the fish swam in the sea. And it was all Good. But the Creator, The Father and Mother, were still alone. Even though The Father and Mother were beings, two halves to a whole, The Creator, was at that time the only conscious being. The first fruit ripened and fell to the floor of the Garden of Paradise. Inside of the first fruit were five forms, life less and featureless. The Great Mother took from the Pillar of water and she infused its essence into the first form. The great Mother took a fruit from the Tree of Life and another from Tree of Knowledge, and the Creator Breathed upon this now liquid form. She awoke, and the great mother gave her the two fruits to eat. Afterwards consuming the fruits the Watery form knew herself and she knew she was alive. She asked, “who am I?” The great mother replied “ you are our daughter Aquea the Spirit of Water.” Thus the first Titan was born alive and conscious. The Great mother then went to the second form. The great mother took form the pillar of Air, and she infused its essence into the second form. She also took fruits from the Tree of life and the Tree of Knowledge. The Creator Breathed on this second Gaseous form, and She was alive. The Great mother fed it the two fruits and the gaseous form knew herself and she knew she was alive. She asked, “Who am I?” The great mother replied “ you are our Daughter Ariel, the Spirit of Air”. Thus the second Titan was born Alive and Conscious. The great Father went to the third form and he took from the Pillar of Earth and he infused its essence into the third form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now Earthen form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits to eat. Afterwards He asked, “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our son Terrus, the Spirit of Earth. Thus the third Titan was born Alive and conscious. The great Father went to the fourth form. He took from the Pillar of fire and he infused its essence into the fourth form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge and The Creator Breathed upon this now fiery form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits to eat. Afterwards He asked, “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our son Ignius, the Spirit of Fire. Thus the Fourth Titan was born Alive and Conscious. Then the great Father and Mother went over to the last form. They took from the Pillar of Time and they infused its essence into the fifth and last form. They took a fruit form the Tree of Life and another from the tree of Knowledge. The great Mother and Father then divided it into two aspects, Male and Female. The Creator breathed upon the quickened form and the great mother and Father fed the two fruits to this form. It awoke and asked, “who am I” The Creator replied “You are Chronos, the spirit of Time. You will tend the Wheel of time” (The female aspect {the fates} looks after the spinning of the pattern of life threads and the Male aspect takes note of the stars and the Astrological patterns they make). Thus the fifth Titan was born Alive and Conscious. The Creator then presented the Titans with the Choice. “ You can choose to follow me and my Authority or you can follow your self” All of the Titans chose to follow The Creator, The Great Father and Mother. And they were all Good. And they abided in the Garden of Paradise. The Creator then took their children the Titans and showed them the world that they had created. Their children were Gleeful. Chronos asked, “ what I should do?” and the Great Father took him to the Great Wheel and showed the Titan how to maintain the wheel. The Creator told Chronos about the Mysteries of Choice and Destiny, and how to interweave them. Meanwhile the Great Mother had gone to tend the World Tree. More Fruit were ripening. The other four Titans left alone were delighted with this new world to play in. They dived in. Aqeua enjoyed rushing through the ocean causing the sea to rise upon the land. Ariel loved flying through the Air and making tremendous winds. Terrus enjoyed rolling around in the Earth, causing mountains to rise and fall, And Ignius enjoyed erupting from his Brother Terrus and spreading himself all over the place, He also liked flying around with His sister Ariel. Unfortunately the Titans romping about caused much destruction in the world, The trees bowed and braked under Ariel's Breath. They burned under Ingium’s gaze, and were Crushed by Aquea’s waves and Terrus’ rising and falling earth. The animals of the sea and land faired no better. They were in terrible pain from the Titans activities. Feeling their creation’s pain The Creator commanded the Titans to stop and return to the Garden of Paradise. The great Father had to unleash the wells of Darkness (Negative energy plane) to end the suffering of the plants and animals that were hurt by the Titans. The great Mother had to unleash the wells of Light (positive energy plane) to get the remaining life to grow and spread over the earth again. This is why one will find impressions of Seashells in the rock up in the mountains away from any sea, and Bones in the earth of no known animal. These are leftovers from the Ravages of the Titans. The Great Father and Mother were very disappointed with their children’s behavior. The Titans were then sent to their respective Pillars. The Creator gave them Dominion over their respective pillars under the Authority of the Creator. The Great Mother and Father knew that they could not allow beings of such power to freely and idly walk the earth. The great Father knew that such beings needed first a task to keep them busy and then a home apart from earth. So gathering up the Ether, The great Father drew from the six Pillars to create the Heavens and the Abyss, and the Great mother created the Astral Plane to connect the Heavens and the Abyss and the Elemental pillars to Earth. This Astral plane when near to earth, looks like earth, and is where the fey sometimes live, and dreamers sometimes find themeselves, as well as spirits, it is sometimes called the Etherial also the spirit world. Then the second fruit ripened and the gods were born. The Great Father and Mother repeated the same process with the Titans, but they used the Wells of Light (positive energy plane) instead of the raging elements. When the Second fruit opened there were eight forms upon the floor of the Garden of Paradise. The great Father went to the first form and he took from the Pillar of Light and he infused its essence into the first form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now luminous form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits to eat. Afterwards He asked, “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our son Terek, strong in heart unfailing in courage and valor and skilled in the arts of War”. Thus Terak was born First among the Gods, Alive and conscious. The great Father went to the second form and he took from the Pillar light and the Pillar of Darkness and he infused its essences into the second form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and two fruit form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now forbidding form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits from the tree of Knowledge and one fruit from the Tree of life to eat. Afterwards He asked. “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our son Maal, Who weights a life’s choices in the Balance. Who judges the quality of choices and meets out consequences”. Thus Maal, the embodiment of Justice, Law, the Judge of the Living and the Dead, was born, Alive and conscious with the weight of consequence upon his shoulders. The great Mother went to the third form and she took from the Pillar of Air and the pillar of light he infused its essence into the third form. The great Mother took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge and The Creator Breathed upon this now swirling form. She awoke and the great Mother gave her the two fruits to eat. Afterwards She asked, “ Who am I?” The great Mother replied “ You are our Daughter Aymara, who is filled with inspiration passion and love. With your Art you will lift the spirits of the world to the heavens Thus the Goddess Aymara was born Alive and conscious. The great Father went to the Fourth form and he took from each Elemental Pillar and he infused their essences into the fourth form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now solid form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits to eat. Afterwards He asked, “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our son Korak the Gifted. In you hands lies the give of shaping. Any of the elements are yours to craft. Thus the God Korak the Crafter, Forger of metal, Shaper of wood, was born Alive and conscious. The great Mother went to the Fifth form and she took from the Pillar of Light and Earth and She infused its essence into the third form. The great Mother took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now Loamish form. She awoke and the great Mother gave her the two fruits to eat. Afterwards She asked, “ Who am I?” The great Mother replied “ You are our Daughter Rontra, Who coaxes seeds from the earth. With your Patience crops will grow. Thus the Goddess Rontra was born Alive and conscious. The great Father went to the sixth form and he took from the every Pillar except fire infused its essences into the third form. The great Father took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now Verdant form. He awoke and the great Father gave him the two fruits to eat. Afterwards He asked, “ Who am I?” The great Father replied “ You are our Son Orome, whose heart is free. You shall tend to the wild. Maintaining the balance between new life and Death. With your wisdom the most adaptable shall flourish and thus the Balance of life shall be maintained. Thus the God Orome was born Alive and conscious. The great Mother went to the seventh form and she took from the Pillar of Light and fire and She infused its essence into the third form. The great Mother took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge and The Creator Breathed upon this now flickering form. She awoke and the great Mother gave her the two fruits to eat. Afterwards She asked, “ Who am I?” The great Mother replied “ You are our Daughter Anwyn, who is filled with understanding. You shall watch over the hearth keeping it warm, keeping marriages strong and ensuring women are fertile. Thus the Goddess Aymara was born Alive and conscious. The great Mother went to the eighth form and she took from the Pillar of Light and She infused its essence into the third form. The great Mother took a fruit form the Tree of life and another form the Tree of Knowledge, and The Creator Breathed upon this now radiant form. She awoke and the great Mother gave her the two fruits to eat. Afterwards She asked, “ Who am I?” The great Mother replied “ You are our Daughter Morwyn, who is filled with compassion and wisdom. You shall heal and help those seek redemption. Thus the Goddess Morwyn was born Alive and conscious. The great Mother and Father gathered their Children together in the Garden of Paradise. The great Father The Creator then presented the Gods with the Choice. “ You can choose to follow me and my Authority or you can follow your self ” All of the Gods chose to follow The Creator, The Great Father and Mother. And they were all Good. The Third fruit ripened and it was in two sections, The elementals (genies Fairies etc elves) and the Celestials. The Genies were filled with the appropriate element and the Fey a mixture, The celestials with the Positive energy plane. The great Mother made soup of a mixture of two fruits, one fruit from the tree of Knowledge and one fruit from the tree of Life. She fed this soup to the Elementals and the Celestials they were alive and presented with The Choice. They all accepted the Creator’s Authority and they all were Good. The great Father led the Gods and the Celestials to their new home in the Heavens, and he told them of their Tasks. The eight Gods had their provinces, and the Celestials were to serve them. The Great Mother led the Fey to live in harmony with the trees and animals on Earth. And it was all Good The great Father also took the Genies and lesser elemental spirits to the elemental planes and presented them to his other children the Titans. The Titans were pleased with these other servants to serve them. However they were jealous and upset about the Gods. The Great Father and Mother Then asked for their Children, both, the Gods and Titans to gather in their home, the Garden of Paradise. They all arrived, Even Chronos who was Tending the Wheel of Time. The Great Father with the Great mother at his side, began to address his assembled children when Ignius the Titan of fire interrupted him “Why Father have you and Mother shown favoritism to these our younger brothers the Gods? We were the first born after all. You created the Heavens as a home for them, why not for us? You have given them servants the Celestials. What have you given us? Why were we not given tasks? You have given the Gods Dominion over earth. Why not us? Why have you asked us not go to earth? We liked playing there after all.” The great father replied” My children I have given you a task, You the Titans are to look after your elements. For if there were no pure forms for the elements to reflect on, there would be only ether in the world. I have given your servants. These Genies and Elemental Spirits, are your “Children” to look after. They will serve you. Also I did create a home for you. Unlike the gods who have to share the Heavens, you each have an Elemental pillar all to yourself. As for returning to earth? You practically broke the whole world. I don’t want you doing that again. The gods will take better care of the earth. “ Ignius replied” If we cant have the earth no one shall. The Titans then plunged to earth and proceeded to wreak devastation. The Fey in terror fled to the Spirit world. Torak and the other gods plunged after the Titans. However when the Gods joined the battle, the Fey took heart and those that could do battle left their haven of the Spirit world and began battling on the side of the Gods. Ignius set the forests on fire, and he boiled the seas. Ariel flattened the forests and created massive tempests. Aquea caused huge waves to wash over the earth. And Terrus leveled mountains split land to let water in and thrust up mountains again. Some of the Celestials felt that the Creator had wronged the Titans, so they joined the Titans. Half of the Genies and elemental spirits felt loyalty to their masters the Titans so they entered the battle. The other half of the Genies and elemental spirits felt loyalty to the great father, and they joined the battle on the side of the Gods and the loyal Celestials. Ignius gave the rebelling Celestials and elemental spirits some of his power, and they crackled with energy. Lucifer the morning lord, who lead these rebelling Celestials, decided that they had to capture The Great Father and Mother while the Gods and Titans were battling to end this conflict. They entered the Garden of Paradise. Meanwhile, Terak the general, and Korak the Craftsman captured Ignius weakened, because he had given up some of his power. Terrak entered combat with the fiery Titan, with his great axe. Korak had crafted a golden cage that he dropped upon the Titan while he was distracted fighting with Terak. These two gods cast him into the sky and imprisoned him there. He can look down upon the earth from his place in the sky but never touch it. His anger crackles with fury, and it warms the earth. Maal and Rontra captured Terrus. When Terrus began rising out of the earth to engage Maal, Rontra had her trees, climb all over Terrus and sink their roots into him. Thus distracted Maal Impaled him with is Sword. They took Terrus and imprisoned him beneath the ocean. His thrashings can be felt through out the earth, and sometimes he is able to push the water into a great wave that rises from the sea. Aquea was a little harder to find. Amyrara lured Aquea to an island fare out in the middle of the ocean, with her enchanting music. She played on a harp crafted for her by Korak. While Aquea was distracted Anwyn put a chain around her neck, which was fashioned by Korak. This chain drew the heat out of Aquea and she could not move. The two goddesses took her to the bottom of the world, and they entombed her in a prison of ice. Aquea does thrash about causing bits of her icy prison to break loose. That is why one sometimes sees mountains of ice moving about in the ocean. Orome and Morwyn captured Ariel. Ariel was investigating far out to sea; a series of densely packed volcanic islands. Orome began firing arrows at Ariel. Enraged she followed the Hunter into the forest of peaks. (This was a land that Terrus had raised up some mountains, and then Aques had flooded, so only the mountains remained). Ariel found Morwyn waiting for her in there. She was about to smite Morwyn when the gentle goddess asked her “why?” Startled Ariel, said, “because we can”. Morwyn replied. “Did you ever think of asking for our parents forgiveness and to try and serve them like your brother Chronos?” Ariel replied” This earth is ours by right we were the first born and deserve it.” Morwyn replied “ I am sorry, but you cannot be allowed to leave then.” And Orome led his sister Morwyn out of the maze of peaks, trapping Ariel who could not find her way out. Sometimes A small piece of Ariel’s fury escapes her prison and it turns into a great storm we call a Hurricane. Meanwhile in the Garden of Paradise Lucifer and his cohorts entered the heart of the Garden of Paradise where he found the World tree and the Tree of life and the Tree of Knowledge. In a Flash Lucifer stole several fruits from the tree of life, using the Flame that Ignius gave him, burnt down the Tree of Life to cover his theft. Lucifer also reasoned that he did not want to deal with a future batch of immortals, possibly more gods. He then turned upon the Tree of Knowledge and stole some of its fruits as well and set the Tree of Knowledge aflame. Lucifer was about to burn the World tree when Michael grasped his hand. Lucifer was Terak’s Captain and Michael Terak’s Lieutenant. Brother celestial strove against brother celestial and Lucifer was cast down at the foot of the World tree. His compatriots were about to attack Michael, when the Titan Chronos happened upon them. He froze time. He was about to undo the actions of Lucifer, when the Great Father and Mother arrived. The Great father then resumed time and he asked Lucifer if he wished to challenge the combined might of the Creator and the Titan Chronos along with our servant Michael?” Lucifer replied “No.” The great mother then asked “ Do you and your followers seek forgiveness from us four your transgressions, and do you wish to repent and mend your ways and serve us again?” Lucifer replied “No for I wish to rule in your place. I know I will do a better.” The gods sensing the battle in the Garden of Paradise returned. The Great Mother drew off the flame upon the Tree of Knowledge, and she healed it. The great Father planted one of the seeds from a fruit of the Tree of Life. He then motioned for Maal and asked him to judge the situation with the Rebellion of the Titans and Lucifer and his followers of Celestials Genies and elemental spirits. Maal decided that after hearing Morwyn's conversation with Ariel that he would personally ask each of the imprisoned titans if they wished forgiveness, if they were willing to repent, and if they wished to then serve the Creator again. Maal went to each of the imprisoned Titans and asked them these three questions “ Do you seek forgiveness from your Father and Mother, the Creator? Are you willing to repent change your ways and perhaps serve the Creator again?” All of the imprisoned Titans Aquea, Ariel, Terus and Ignius replied “no we wish to take and destroy what we cannot have” Maal judged that they should remain in their Prisons. It was fitting for them to be within grasp of what they wanted but denied having the Earth. Maal then turned to Lucifer and followers of Celestials Genies and elemental spirits and he asked them three questions ““ Do you seek forgiveness from your Father and Mother, the Creator? Are you willing to repent change your ways and perhaps serve the Creator and his Children the Gods again?” Lucifer and his Followers replied “ No we wish to rule in your place I know we can do better” Then Maal Judged “Since you do not whish to serve the Creator, there is a place that has been set aside for you away from the face of the Creator and the presence of the Gods.” The Creator then opened up a portal into The Abyss and the rebellious spirits marched in. The Abyss is a place where entities go that do not wish to serve the Creator. They are placed in a plane where their own desires create the “environment” that they wish to live in. But since only the Creator can make Reality, what ever the self-exiled entity wishes to create is ultimately illusion. This illusion eventually collapses, and the place becomes reflective of ones true nature and appetites. Hence hell can only be entered into by ones own choice and is ultimately a prison of ones own creation. Unfortunately the Celestial War had caused much destruction in the world. The trees bowed and braked under Ariels Breath. They burned under Ingium’s gaze, and were Crushed by Aquea’s waves and Terrus’ rising and falling fists of earth. The animals of the sea and land faired no better. They were in terrible pain from the destruction wrought by the Titans and their followers the rebellious Celestials Genies and Elemental spirits. Luckily the fey were able to escape into the Spirit world. Those that could returned and fought. They suffered terrible losses. The great Father turned to his children the gods, and he said; “ Now it is your turn to heal the world.” Maal the god of the dead had to unleash the wells of Darkness (Negative energy plane) to end the suffering of the plants and animals that were hurt by the Titans. Then Anwyn the goddess of Fertility had to unleash the wells of Light (positive energy plane) to get the remaining life to grow and spread over the earth again. This is why one will find impressions of Seashells in the rock up in the mountains away from any sea, and Bones in the earth of no known animal. These are leftovers from the Ravages of the Titans. With the earth restored by the hands of their children the great Father and Mother were pleased and proud. The gods reentered the Garden of Paradise. Terak and Anwyn were holding hands. Maal and Morwyn were holding hands. Korak and Aymara were holding hands. Orome and Rontra were holding hands. The great Father and mother said “Through the pain of war and the joy of building have you grown to care and love each other?” The gods replied “Yes” Then the Creator replied “ you shall then be married” There was much rejoicing. Then great Mother and Father took their children down to the Wheel of time. They cast the Spirits of the Gods across the Ages, Through the Cycles of Epochs. The gods lived 10,000 lives. They lived the lives of trees flowers Bees birds fish and horses. They lived the lives of mortals of males of females, Of the Saintly, the Evil, the Kingly and the peasant. When the spirits of the Gods returned they understood and knew compassion for the world they will be looking after. If one meats the stranger, or passes the widow one must be kind and charitable. One never knows if this is one of the lives of the gods. The great mother stepped into the World Tree and she lowered her arms to her side, and she pulled her toes back out of the garden. The great Father took the sapling of the Tree of Life and he took a Cutting from the Tree of Knowledge. The Great Mother and Father lead their Children the gods, and their celestial servants to the Heavens. The Great Father planted the cutting from the Tree of Knowledge, and he planted the Sapling of the Tree of life. The great mother stretched her toes into Heaven, and she spread her arms overhead and she became the World tree again. Then she stepped outside of the Tree again. Thus the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge and The World tree were moved from the Garden of Paradise to the Heavens. The Fourth fruit then ripened and fell. It opened and inside was the Reptiles. There were the Dragons, Dinosaurs, Lizard men, Troglodytes, Kobolds, and the Yuan-Ti. The Gods all then breathed upon these creatures and they were alive. They were all fed soup made from a fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. They awoke and asked, “Who am I?” The gods replied “ You are our children and you will spread across the earth and will be fruitful and multiply. Will you choose to serve us and live in harmony with the Fey?” The reptiles replied “Yes”. The Gods then put these new children upon the Earth. They were fruitful and multiplied. The gods realized that in order for the sentience to survive with such great predators about they would have to help their children. They gave boons and answered the prayers of their worshipers. These reptilian creatures soon learned after being able to commune and channel the power of the gods, Divine power, they learned how to tap into the power of their own minds and spirits (psionics) and finally into the power of the elemental pillars (arcane magic) Meanwhile in the Planes of the Abyss, the Illusions of the Celestials and Genies that rebelled broke down and their corrupt desires and natures consumed them. They became Devils and Demons. They blamed the Gods and the Creator for tricking them, for convincing them to go to a place where they could live as they wished with out interference. They were surrounded by illusions that they ruled the world. These illusions melted away and they were left In a Hell of their own creating. They then blamed the Gods and the Creator for their condition, and decided to corrupt control and destroy as much as possible. They split into two groups. One group fell into a strict hierarchy ruled by Lucifer. The other fell into a squabbling pack, ruled by the strongest. Since Lucifer with some of Ignius power and fire, ruled in strength over all of them. He was greater then a Celestial but less then a god. Lucifer consumed one of the fruits of the Tree of life that he stole, and one of the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge. He became imortal, and gained some limited knowledge the language of Destruction, from this sliver of knowledge he created the languages of Abyssal and Inferenal. In the elemental Planes the Genies each appointed a king to rule in stead and name of the gods. The Great Father and Mother gathered their children in the Garden of Paradise. The Creator addressed his children. “ Now my children it is time for me to leave, and you shall inherit my Authority. Everything in this Universe is under your Authority this includes the Fey Celestials, Genies, and Those that Dwell in Limbo, (Demons and Devils). Even those that dwell in Darkness may not acknowledge, your Dominion, but I leave you the Power to force them in line and obliterate them if necessary. Since the Elements are with out masters, Terak and Korak, you shall have dominion over the Pilllar of Fire, and its Deziens. Maal and Rontra, you shall have dominion over the Pillar of Earth. Aymara and Anwyn you shall have dominion over the Pillar of water. And Orome and Morwyn, You shall have domain over the Pillar of Air. The Pillar of Time remains in the hands of Chronos and the Pillars of light and Dark, you all will share, However I expect Anwyn shall look after the Pillar of light and Maal the pillar of Dark Torak you and Anwyn shall lead in partnership like us. You shall not rule and impose your will upon your brothers and sisters but you shall lead. War and destruction must be coupled with Creation and Fertility. Maal, you shall be the judge of hearts the embodiment of justice, you shall be the keeper of law. This must also be tempered with Morwyn and her Compassion and Forgiveness. Korak you and Amyara shall nurture creativity and craft. Orome and Rontra, you shall both watch over Nature, and both the hunting of animals, the harvesting of crops. No god shall descend to the earth with out the approval of all of the other gods. The exception to this is if the Elementals or the Fiends happen to enter the Earth. Then you can move quickly to rectify the situation. However remember the importance of a beings right to choose, his ties to destiny, and their need to solve their own problems to grow. “ The creator then said “ I give you my children, the Gods, Steward ship and authority over the universe. However after the ages have turned and the cycles run their course, I will return. Chronsos you alone whom I have taught Creus, the language of creation, for you must know all beginings and endings for the Task I have for you. Chronos who is tending the wheel of time, shall record all that has come to pass and that will happen in the Book of Truth. Your Fates shall weave the Tapestry of Ages, woven from everyones’s life threads, showing me every possibility from every choice and the path of the Universe. When I return You shall provide me with the Book of Truth and the Tapestry of the Ages I will read the history of the universe. If I am not satisfied, The Great father will destroy everything and begin creating anew. If I am satisfied, the great mother will reward all” Thus the Creator took the Garden of Paradise and left the Universe and will return at the end of all things. I know it is long winded, probably repative, and probably not a good read. I am also sure it could use lots of revision. Well there we are.
ElyasRavenwood 05-26-07, 11:24 AM	Scriborg 2 I forgot to include the pantheon. Name Purpose Creator Contemplation Enlightenment Great Father Creation Destruction Death Judge Great Mother Creation Compassion Mercy Forgivness Repentence Aquea Titaness of Water-fury of the Sea Ariel Titaness of Air-fury of the Storm Terrus Titan of the Earth-Fury of the earthquake Ignius Titan of fire- Fury of the flame Chronos Titan of Time-Keeper of the Wheel, Knowledge, Magic, Truth,Fate, Travel (theologically concidered a god) Terak God of War-General of Heaven,Steward of the Universe, Leader,Soldiers/Valor/ Courage/Stregnth/Cooperation/ Responsibility Husband of Anwyn Anwyn Goddess of Hearth-Mother,Stewardess of the Universe,Leader,Marriage,Family,Fertilit y Cooperation Wife of Terak Maal God of Justice-Judge of the Dead,End of all things,Caretaker of the Grave,Final Justice, Law,Death Husband of Morwyn Morwyn Goddess of Compassion-White Lady, Healing Hand, mercy Wisdom repentence healing resurrection Wife of Maal Korak God of the Forge-Master Shaper, artisans, carpenters, Crafts.trade. Husband of Aymara Aymara Goddess of Inspiration-Sister of Song, Lady of Love, Mother of Art Love, passion, Art, Luck, Creativity, Wife of Korak Orome God of the Hunt-Keeper of the Wild, The , Archer, Keen eyed,Nature, Wood craft, Animals,Wilderness Husband of Rontra Rontra Goddess of Agriculture-Earthmother,The Generous, The Source, Mining, Plants, Farming wealth Wife of Orome God Purpose Lucifer Fiend of Deception-Father of Lies, The Betrayer, Flame of AmbitionDeception, Betrayal, Ambition, Fire, Power Asmodeus Devil of Pride Mehpilstopheles Devil of Envy Beelzebub Devil of Sloth Geryon Devil of Wrath Dispater Devil of Avarice Mammon Devil of Gluttony Belial Devil of Lust Ravim Demon of Tyranny Prince Master of enchantment illusion Kali Demoness of Destruction Queen of Maraliths Grazzt Demon of Corruption, The velvet glove over steel fist, insidius Shaitan Demon of Power, The Prince of the Undead. Lilith Demoness of Treachery Queen of spiders and drow I liked the idea of having 9 celestial powers, 13 Abyssal powers and 4 elemental powers Names over time and geography God Name Yuan Ti name Centari Name Al Quadim name Chronos Inki Tempus Kor Terak Marduk Jupiter Hajama Anwyn Ki Juno Jisan Maal Lahar Pluto Zann Morwyn Anu Demeter Hakiyah Korak Ashan Vulcan Najm Aymara Ishtar Venus Selan Orome Enlil Artimus Haku Rontra Apsu Rhea Jauhar Lucifer Tiamat Archemond, Baphamet I thought I would give the gods different names over different periods of history and in different continents. Brief history of the world. When the next fruit on the tree of life ripened and fell, the reptiles came forth. The Dragons, the dinosaurs, the Yuan ti, the Lizard men, the kobolds, the Troglodytes, came out. They covered the earth. The elder Fey (elves and dwarves, like the first born and Dain from LOTR) had their homeland as well. The Yuan ti began conquering the lizard men, the kobolds and the troglodytes; they needed to be organized in a land filled with dragons and dinosaurs. The Yuan ti even subdued the dragons and built a vast empire. The Yuan ti kept the dragon clutches hidden from their dragon servants, as a further means of control. Think of early Sumer and Babylon, with Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Then the great hero of the Yuan ti, Gilgamesh, decided to conquer more at the urging of Lucifer. He decided to try and conquer the Elder Fey. The Elder Fey freed the dragons from their bondage, and they turned on their Yuan ti masters and destroyed the Yuan Ti Empire. Asmodeus deposed Lucifer. He fled the abyss, and then freed Igneus from his prison, the sun. Igneus came down to earth and burned things. The gods Terak and Korak had to recapture Igneus the titan and place him back in the sky. Lucifer meanwhile fled to the elemental plane of fire, and took over the realm in secret. Asmodeus did not have the power to keep Ravim and the other Demon lords Ravim, Kali, Shaitan, Grazzt, and Lilith in line. Thus began the blood war. Thus ended the age of reptiles In the heavens a new fruit ripened fell and opened. Out came the mammals. The princes of the elder fey traveled the world and found and retrieved, many of the clutches of eggs of the dragons and they returned them to the dragons. The good ones were thankful, and swore to protect he homeland of the fey. The evil dragons took their eggs and left. The Yuan ti still have some clutches hidden. The princes of the elder fey (dwarves and elves) realized that, with immortal parents, they would never rule. After experiencing the war and searching for the dragon eggs they wanted more. So they went into the world, and guided the Mammals, humans Halflings. Etc, They build great civilizations (Rome, the Chin empire etc) the roman Emperor Romulus, eventually went mad. Lucifer was urging him on. He decided to destroy the churches of the nine gods and place a new god Rhallor, god of fire in their place with himself as the chief servant of this new god. The temples were burned. The faithful were persecuted. The symbol of this new faith was a burning tree (a mockery of the tree of life) two movements began in reaction to this. In the outskirts of the empire to the north, the followers of Chronos the Titan and God of truth and knowledge, had his followers do their best to gather all the books and bits of knowledge they could. In another part of the empire a fisher woman named Mariah arose, and began leading a movement that stressed worshiping all the gods equally rather then individually. The symbol of this faith was a radiant tree of life. This was easily confused with the symbol of the burning tree of life of Rhallor, and many of the faithful, were allowed to escape persecution. Thus the Great church arose. Emperor Romulus in his madness decided to attack his parents the elder fey. He was suspicious they were up to something. He gathered his forces on the same costal border town that Chronos’s followers were stockpiling books and knowledge. Romulus didn’t care and he launched his invasion of the lands of the fey across the sea. The invasion failed miserably, the dragons were defending the Land of the fey. Emperor Romulus perished in the battle. The remnants of a legion managed to escape the battle. They returned to the town where the priests of Chronos were stockpiling books. The priests of Chronos healed the legion. This tattered remains of a legion was convinced to stay and defend the community. The empire collapsed from internal and external pressure. Two organizations emerged from the collapse of the empire- the Great Church, and the Venificus, an order of wizards, supported by the priesthood of Chronos. Both organizations encourage the feudal lords that now exist to rule with an enlightened hand. Well that’s all for the history. In my campaign I co DM ed with a friend. We would trade on and off every 3 to six months. For the first five levels the party worked on retrieving an ancient scroll for the Venificus, for the next five levels, they pursued a villain from the party’s background. He was a priest of Lucifer. He stole a magical item from the Venificus. They finally killed him. That’s as far as we got. I moved. We were planning from levels 10-15 they would have to deal with an invasion of the Githyanki and their Litch queen. Finally they would find out that Lucifer was the ultimate villain behind all of this and have to deal with him and defeat him around level 20. Well there we are. I know I have taken names directly from mythology and I have taken Rhalor from GRR Martin. Eventually I will be able to think of better names. There we are. Sorry for throwing all of this your way Scriborg2. Once I got started I kept on going.
Yakman 06-12-07, 03:36 PM	I've seen it analogized on these boards that "Gods are like politicians, competing for popular support, while archfiends are like corporate executives, competing for a market share." And that's how I've thought of them ever since. popular support = market share a better analogy might be that the gods are seeking market share, while the archfiends are seeking to maximize their profitability. thus, the gods might be running a corporation (believers approximating shareholders--there needs to be a return on investment for them) while the archfiends are operating wholely owned operations (they own everything, and are interested only in personal profit)
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 04:11 PM	popular support = market share a better analogy might be that the gods are seeking market share, while the archfiends are seeking to maximize their profitability. thus, the gods might be running a corporation (believers approximating shareholders--there needs to be a return on investment for them) while the archfiends are operating wholely owned operations (they own everything, and are interested only in personal profit) That is a really good analogy, but that is scary disturbing. I just got a twisted image of Bloated Devil in a Fast Food Manager's Outfit (The colored shirt, little tie, and odd hat) as the owner of a "McMammon's" franchise asking, "Would like to upsize your damnation? Is the Unhappy Meal toy for a Little Yugoloth or Demodand? " :D
ripvanwormer 06-15-07, 06:08 PM	Gods are tied to their worshipers, while archfiends (and archcelestials, archmodrons, etc.) are tied to their planes of existence. Archfiends thus work on a bigger scale, in most cases, representing infinite swathes of real estate where gods represent finite groups of the faithful. This doesn't mean archfiends are more powerful, but they're certainly vaster - to some degree, they and the planar layers under their control are one. A divine realm, which has a similar connection to its owner, is a more finite thing, although it may seem endless from within. Divine realms also have no real connection to the plane on which they're hosted. Deities don't truly personify their alignments as archfiends do. Cyric, Nerull, Incabulos, and Tiamat are all evil, but the General of Gehenna is Evil Itself. Hextor is lawful evil, but Asmodeus is Malign Order Incarnate. If Asmodeus were to die, his associated alignment would be shaken, fragmented; lawful evil items and races everywhere thrown into confusion and disarray until a new being stepped into Asmodeus' place. A being can certainly be both; Lolth is both god and archdemon, for example, as is (I remain convinced) Baphomet, Demogorgon, Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie, and Sess'inek due to their substantial worshiper bases. Graz'zt, Pale Night, Lynkhab, Fraz-Urb'luu, Alzrius, and so on are only archdemons, and Orcus lost his divinity during the course of his resurrection. Graz'zt, at least, seems to actively avoid divinity, seeing gods as pawns for him to manipulate, not beings of equal merit to respect, and certainly not something for him to strive to become. When he had Waukeen under his power, he asked her not to grant her divinity to him but to his daughter. Rather than insist the xvarts worship him, he permitted his servant Raxivort to become a lesser god under the power of their prayers (Raxivort nearly wrested control of Azzagrat from him, which would have made him an Abyssal lord as well as a god, but Graz'zt managed to hold onto his throne despite Raxivort's power). His son Iuz, a demigod, is also something he seeks to control and direct; when Iuz became a demigod through the power of the Soul Husks and the worship of his followers, Graz'zt didn't seem concerned with doing the same. Archfiends might well be limited in some respects to vulnerable bodies, although in 1e they had "demon amulets" that protected their essences in the same way as lich phylacteries. In Dead Gods the PCs have a chance to find Orcus' amulet, but it's noted that now that he's a god (as he was at the time, albeit an undead one) it has no power over him. Being a god was also what gave Orcus the chance of coming back at all; if he had remained a "mere" archfiend, the Abyss would have simply swallowed him up when Kiaransalee slew him on his home plane. This is likely why beings like Orcus and Demogorgon bothered with divinity, Orcus seeking cultists among the necromancers of Trask and Narfell and Inuitea (from the Ghostwalk campaign) to become a deity, big and flashy and obvious. Demogorgon sowed his seeds among the ixitxachitl and kopru and troglodytes, the mad dakons and Olmans and ur-Flan, and became a lesser deity as well. Graz'zt has his cultists among witches and lamias, but he prefers a subtler path. He redirects divinity when he finds it, remaining hidden in the shadows between. Even so, he manages to have as big a power base as his divine rivals. He's not the only archfiend to feel this way, either - yugoloths find divinity abhorrent as a rule, and I don't see beings like Pale Night or Rhyxali bothering with it any time soon. I'm convinced that this is because godhood, for a being who already personifies part of the cosmos, is as much a burden as an asset.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-16-07, 10:26 PM	There is no cosmic reward/punishment system in D&D. CE people go to the abyss, because they WANT TO BE IN THE ABYSS. To a CE person the abyss is paradise. So drowning in a sea of blood or being devoured by some hideous obyrith thing is paradise for everybody who wants to "get ahead for themselves and f*** all and all that who get in their way" (a pretty good definition of CE if there ever was one). By that reasoning, everybody who is CE is completely emo, insane, and in thrall mind body and soul to the dark ones.
Bob the Efreet 06-17-07, 04:09 PM	So drowning in a sea of blood or being devoured by some hideous obyrith thing is paradise for everybody who wants to "get ahead for themselves and f*** all and all that who get in their way" (a pretty good definition of CE if there ever was one). By that reasoning, everybody who is CE is completely emo, insane, and in thrall mind body and soul to the dark ones. That's the wrong way of looking at it. A CE soul who finds himself in the Abyss is finally able to turn his personal power into something greater. All the rewards of the multiverse are within his grasp, all he has to do is murder and brutalise his way to the top and claim them.