Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-07, 10:19 AM	A story I'd mentioned before got released over on Planewalker this morning. It's a followup to a previous piece set in FR's 3e cosmology, working on the premise that nothing is universally retroactive, even if it seems that way to people directly experiencing the change, and something that large is bound to attract unwanted attention. Good intentions aside, such a thing might spiral out of control (the road to hell and all...). Evil Still Seeps Through (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=29528) Of course, my hat of the Great Tree cosmology know no limit, so to speak, so obviously nothing good comes about.
Paulon 07-20-07, 02:58 PM	Now that's one scary story... Very well written.
Lobsopdoy 07-20-07, 03:02 PM	Hurray! More 'lothy goodness. Shemmy, don't ever change
AlanBruce 07-20-07, 03:07 PM	Congratulations. It was a most enjoyable read. So much for faith in the divine...
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-07, 03:15 PM	Very good, although I thought halfway through that you would work Sigil into the story.
Lobsopdoy 07-20-07, 05:17 PM	I have one question. Were all the evil beings at the end other Baernoloths, or simply high ranking Yugoloths? Other then that, this needs a sequel NOW!
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-07, 05:48 PM	I have one question. Were all the evil beings at the end other Baernoloths, or simply high ranking Yugoloths? Other then that, this needs a sequel NOW! http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif I'm glad you liked. They're all specific baernaloths that have appeared in earlier stories of mine. I think I only used those that I've actually previously fleshed out in stories revolving around them (the Blind Clockmaker, the Dire Shepherd, the Wanderer, the Flesh Sculptor... all of them had prior stories). They're all members of the Demented, a group of 13 (arguably mad) baernaloths who remained behind in the multiverse to tinker with and guide the progress of the 'loths. While the number of members is my thing, the group itself is canon, though only two of the members I assign to it appear in canon (Daru Ib Shamiq appeared in 2e, and Harishek Ap Thulkesh appeared very briefly in Dragon magazine). I might want to add a disclaimer to this story about it picking up on elements from previous stuff of mine. Adds a little bit of depth to things, though if you've read the story behind Tellura Ibn Shartalan, you'll recognize her for what she is well before I think I make it otherwise obvious in this story. I tried to be vague at first, and the potential for perhaps initially thinking her the Lady of Pain talking to Ao was intentional. A direct sequel to this isn't likely. Given the end of this one, it'd be honestly unpleasant for me to write. Plus this was me poking a stick at the FR cosmology, but now I've had my fun and it's time to move on to other things lurking on my desktop in various states of completion.
Kamin_Majere 07-20-07, 06:20 PM	While i've never bought into the whole "loths are the best things evar" i did love this story. And i loved how you got back at that pathetic drow godling for what it did to the loth in the War of the Spider queen. Excellent stroy! i shall favorite it now! But could the baernaloths really over power one of the overgods? I'm not up to snuff with their fluff, but it seems odd. It might be true as i've said i'm not much up on their abilities (just mostly fishing for info) But all in all great story, please give more!:D
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-07, 06:35 PM	But could the baernaloths really over power one of the overgods? I'm not up to snuff with their fluff, but it seems odd. It might be true as i've said i'm not much up on their abilities (just mostly fishing for info) But all in all great story, please give more!:D Within an overgod's domain? I'd say no, absolutely not. They'd be totally out of their element, and Tellura effectively says so in the story. Plus, for the purposes of the story I grossly inflated their power, and their overt uses of their power. My take on them is probably better illustrated by the other baernaloth cycle stories of mine, and their apperances in my first storyhour (much more the subtle string pullers who you feel but don't see). She was only there speaking to Ao because he was hoping for some answers from her (albeit different from the one he got), and she admitted that she was a guest, entirely there at his sufference, and he could force her to leave if he wanted. The fiends were playing with loopholes effectively, gnawing away at Ao's cosmos by virtue of the changes that he'd made apparently without understanding the full ramifications of what might happen. Normally they shouldn't be able to waltz into Cynosure, any more than a paladin could waltz into Asmodeus's palace and roll for initiative. Their power is incredibly undefined, but IMO it's linked to their alignment/plane even more so than the other, younger fiends. Their knowledge though, by virtue of their age, opens up the door to other things.
Kamin_Majere 07-20-07, 06:59 PM	Ah ok, that makes more sense. I still think the story was great, and i loved it. I always like when the subtle manipulators flex their muscles a bit and put others in their place. So if you overstated their powers then no worries it made it way cooler :) And again i loved what happened to the Drow, that was great:D I shall now have to go read the rest of your stories especially if they are as good or better than this one. So many creative minds on these board and others... makes me feel like a newb even after playing for 2 decades
Dialexis 07-21-07, 02:42 AM	Another very nice piece, especially with the elements of the Vhaeraun & Bloodrift inclusion/expansion, as well as the touching on the two camps of "native" and interloper deities. Also, it was very enjoyable to guess and figure out each of the Demented. My only problem was the gross hyperboyle of the Demented's power -the inflation of their power relative to the gods of FR was just too much for my sensibilities -it broke the verisimlitude for me (as much as any of us can have a "suspension of disbelief" when talking about loths and Toril). *Like you clarified in your previous post, my feelings on their power ratio is much more akin (exactly really) to your SH portrayals. (One-hit-wondering a drow god and mentally punking an overgod like a school child doesn't seem appropriate). Moreover, I think the story could still work without such blatant overbearing; for instance, the Inquisitor could merely evade/shirk the attack of the assassin god -the sheer fact of which would cause Vhaeraun to flee in caution -as the gnawing doubt was left like a worm to infect his once-overweening arrogance, or to have the Inquisitor "catch" Vhaeraun's shadow as he flees, speaking the same words to it, torturing it, etc. Or having the Shepherdess be far more servile -less condenscending and having Ao seem far more mentally transcendant and "Hellenistic" -like the small child that speaks words that cause the questioning of doubt, or the servant to the intelligent master -the consideration alone is often enough to sow the seeds. There could be other rsolutions, but essentially, I loved the "crux" of your story and really all the minor scenes, but thought the over-the-top power of the Baerns compared to the gods (and especially the Overgod) to be not only unnecessary, but also cosmologically incorrect/unpalatable. That said, does this mean we get a SH#1 update soon?
Phantom Llama 07-21-07, 07:14 AM	I agree with Dialexis, and frankly go further. While I like a lot of your work, this just felt like revenge fanfiction where your pet characters beat up someone/thing you don't like (the 3E FR cosmology in this case). Well-written revenge fanfiction, but revenge fanfiction nontheless. You say yourself that you grossly inflated their power in the story.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-07, 07:43 AM	You say yourself that you grossly inflated their power in the story. It was something of a mirror to the situation in WotSQ that had Vhaeraun kicking around an archfiend on the archfiend's home plane, in the fiend's own fortress. That didn't make any sense, and this story began as a reverse of that situation, hyperbole and all. The Demented don't have anything close to that power in my SH (and the next several plot arcs will, among other topics, shine a light on their shortcomings).
Dialexis 07-21-07, 09:59 AM	It was something of a mirror to the situation in WotSQ that had Vhaeraun kicking around an archfiend on the archfiend's home plane, in the fiend's own fortress. That didn't make any sense, and this story began as a reverse of that situation, hyperbole and all. The Demented don't have anything close to that power in my SH (and the next several plot arcs will, among other topics, shine a light on their shortcomings). Tsk, tsk, didn't your 'lothy spawning mother teach you that two wrongs don't make a right (unless you're using Slaad Geometry)
ripvanwormer 07-21-07, 10:21 AM	But could the baernaloths really over power one of the overgods? The Shepherdess didn't have any direct power over Ao in the story; he let her in willingly, and it says he could have banished her from the sphere at any time. It was his own doubts that gave her what power she had. He never felt right about what he had done, the grand charade he had pulled, and the Shepherdess exploited that, used his doubt as the key to the portal of his heart. The baerns are a much more primal type of being than the Powers, even the Overpowers. Ao is the creator of only one sphere, and a relatively young one at that. In a very real sense, the baernoloths are the Lower Planes, the beings who originated them at the beginning of time and who personify the forces that make them up, and by pulling part of the Lower Planes away to create his new cosmology, Ao inadvertently brought the baerns (other than the Shepherdess) in too. Their increased power in this story struck me as "big fish in a small pond" syndrome. The baerns are something uncontrolled and unexpected, so they're at their full power while the rest of the cosmology, intentionally limited by Ao, is much weaker than its Great Wheel equivalent. What stuck in my mind, though, is what of the other progenitors? The primal beings of chaos, law, and good? Perhaps some response-fiction is in order.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-07, 10:49 AM	What stuck in my mind, though, is what of the other progenitors? The primal beings of chaos, law, and good? Perhaps some response-fiction is in order. Be still my beating heart. :)
Lobsopdoy 07-21-07, 03:46 PM	The Shepherdess didn't have any direct power over Ao in the story; he let her in willingly, and it says he could have banished her from the sphere at any time. It was his own doubts that gave her what power she had. He never felt right about what he had done, the grand charade he had pulled, and the Shepherdess exploited that, used his doubt as the key to the portal of his heart. The baerns are a much more primal type of being than the Powers, even the Overpowers. Ao is the creator of only one sphere, and a relatively young one at that. In a very real sense, the baernoloths are the Lower Planes, the beings who originated them at the beginning of time and who personify the forces that make them up, and by pulling part of the Lower Planes away to create his new cosmology, Ao inadvertently brought the baerns (other than the Shepherdess) in too. Their increased power in this story struck me as "big fish in a small pond" syndrome. The baerns are something uncontrolled and unexpected, so they're at their full power while the rest of the cosmology, intentionally limited by Ao, is much weaker than its Great Wheel equivalent. What stuck in my mind, though, is what of the other progenitors? The primal beings of chaos, law, and good? Perhaps some response-fiction is in order. Yes, that's what I thought as well. I also felt that the point of the story was how Ao pretty much screwed Faerun over with his rules of non-interference. He could wipe the fiends from the sphere, but because he's caged and limited himself with all the rules that he's put into place for everyone, he can't do anything. I feel that's the crux of the story.
Donraj 07-21-07, 09:52 PM	Gotta say, I enjoyed reading it until right after the last part with Vhaerun. After that it started becoming unbelievable. Archfiends or not, loopholes or not Toril is Ao's playground and by all rights he should have been willing and able to slam-dunk them right out of his cosmology. And even accepting that would break some limits that Ao had placed on himself watching them simply stride into the divine realms of deities looking to start trouble is taking it a wee bit far. An egotistical intermediate god alone in NE plane who has no idea what he's up against? Certainly plausible. Archfiends strolling into Dweomerheart? Ah, no.
ripvanwormer 07-21-07, 10:30 PM	Toril is Ao's playground Is it really? Are you sure? All we really know about him is that he's at least DvR 21 and he can promote or demote the gods of his sphere (and, in this story, he has the power to create a separate cosmology of limited extent). I don't think this necessarily makes the world his "playground." As for the Demented, we don't know how powerful they are, either, since Shemmy made them up for the most part. I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on. To me, this is a scenario of some gods who are powerful within one cosmology being exposed to the full fury of entire planes of existence from the larger cosmology their cosmos split off from. It doesn't sound like much of a contest. Other versions of the baernaloths (like the maladaemon that Palindrome and Witch designed) might not be that big of a deal, but you've got to accept the rules the story is based on, if you're to judge it fairly. Picture them as collectively the equivalent of the Overlord in DiceFreaks' Gates of Hell cosmology.
Lobsopdoy 07-21-07, 11:44 PM	Shemmy, are you gonna do the 4 remaining Demented? I'm just on the Chronicler and the work has gotten steadily better as I go from the Dire Shepherdess. The Prosytlizer (sp?) was exceedingly well-done and actually quite deep. Gave me a lot of mental stuff to chew on.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-22-07, 12:11 AM	Shemmy, are you gonna do the 4 remaining Demented? Yes. I've got a start on each of the remaining four, a couple pages on each actually, but they've been lurking in that unfinished state on my desktop for quite some time. As soon as I've got the time to write them, coupled with inspiration hitting me, I'll finish them up. The Shackler is probably next in line since I've got more solid ideas for that one, while the others I'm either still working out the plot (Dreamer, Ineffable), or I'm grossly unsatisfied with what I've already done and want to fully revise it (The Architect). I want the remaining stories to stand on their own and not have too much in common with the others. Beyond them I've got a very loose idea for a story around Yrsinius the Elder (who will show up in the SH in name every so often, but not in person till virtually the end), that will get written at some point. That one will be somewhat based around the notion of the Khlysty heresy.
Donraj 07-22-07, 12:39 AM	Is it really? Are you sure? All we really know about him is that he's at least DvR 21 and he can promote or demote the gods of his sphere (and, in this story, he has the power to create a separate cosmology of limited extent). I don't think this necessarily makes the world his "playground." I was under the impression that that was the point of Ao. He's an overgod. Within his domain his will is absolute. He can effortlessly cast down entire pantheons. Pantheons, multiple. As for the Demented, we don't know how powerful they are, either, since Shemmy made them up for the most part. I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on. I admit I'm not up on more then the basics of yugoloths or Shemmy's work. Still, I assume that he's writing under the framework of the Planescape cosmology. Which I've always understood to put archfiends at a parity with deities, with the former only being insurmountably stronger on their home planes. To me, this is a scenario of some gods who are powerful within one cosmology being exposed to the full fury of entire planes of existence from the larger cosmology their cosmos split off from. It doesn't sound like much of a contest. How so? Do baernaloths routinely go around punking gods, even greater gods (not directly stated but if they were in Dweomerheart I have to imagine Mystra would be stepping in) in the regular cosmology? Even under a Planescapish cosmology these are gods, including an overgod, and they shouldn't be so helpless.
Lobsopdoy 07-22-07, 02:48 AM	I was under the impression that that was the point of Ao. He's an overgod. Within his domain his will is absolute. He can effortlessly cast down entire pantheons. Pantheons, multiple. But that doesn't matter when he's restricted himself from interfering. It's not like something that you do just because you feel like it. He set up a rule for himself and he CAN'T break it. Admittedly, the whole thing seems to just be an exercise in catharsis, but it's a fun to read one, so it's good.
Donraj 07-22-07, 03:19 AM	I'd also like to know where the idea that Ao has decreed he will not interfere in his world comes from. He's done so. He's swatted the gods down and created massive disruption for mortals by doing so. Not sure how canon it is, but in War in Tethry he speaks to the paladin Shield of Innocence. I'm not sure where but I know I remember reading a scene where he spoke to Elminister in another novel. Just asking. I'm honestly not that up on Realmslore.
Eco-Mono 07-22-07, 03:22 AM	But that doesn't matter when he's restricted himself from interfering. It's not like something that you do just because you feel like it. He set up a rule for himself and he CAN'T break it. Ah, the age-old "lifting the boulder" problem. :P
Donraj 07-22-07, 03:23 AM	Ah, the age-old "lifting the boulder" problem. :P Not so much. We know Ao isn't omnipotent.
ripvanwormer 07-23-07, 07:49 PM	I was under the impression that that was the point of Ao. He's an overgod. Within his domain his will is absolute. He can effortlessly cast down entire pantheons. Pantheons, multiple. As far as I can tell, the point of Ao is "plot device for the Avatar trilogy." Beyond that I don't think he has a point. The precise powers of an overpower haven't been defined. I don't think there's any reason to assume his will is absolute in his domain, and I'd even cast doubt on the idea that he can "effortlessly cast down" multiple pantheons. Who knows how much effort it costs him, or what would happen if the pantheons in question prepared for his assault and banded together? Still, I assume that he's writing under the framework of the Planescape cosmology. Which I've always understood to put archfiends at a parity with deities, with the former only being insurmountably stronger on their home planes. Well, they grow from Shemeska's own campaign, which isn't entirely canonical. This story, certainly, doesn't pretend to be canonical, even in terms of his own campaign. Your summary of the role of "archfiends" in the Planescape cosmology is more or less correct, but makes the assumption that the Demented are "archfiends" on the level of Levistus or Graz'zt. They're not. They're something much older and more fundamental. The best comparison would be with the Twin Serpents in Guide to Hell; the baernaloths are to evil as the Serpents are to Law. Do baernaloths routinely go around punking gods, even greater gods (not directly stated but if they were in Dweomerheart I have to imagine Mystra would be stepping in) in the regular cosmology? But the events in this story aren't "routine," nor do they take place within the "regular" cosmology. They're a unique circumstance born of an overdeity creating a sub-cosmology, split off from the main one. The Demented are at their full power, while everything else is more limited than their equivalents in the Great Wheel. they shouldn't be so helpless. "Shouldn't" be? Why not? This seems to be entirely a matter of personal taste.
Donraj 07-23-07, 11:24 PM	The best comparison would be with the Twin Serpents in Guide to Hell; the baernaloths are to evil as the Serpents are to Law. Fair enough. Although they seem noticeably less impaired then the the Serpents are. But the events in this story aren't "routine," nor do they take place within the "regular" cosmology. They're a unique circumstance born of an overdeity creating a sub-cosmology, split off from the main one. The Demented are at their full power, while everything else is more limited than their equivalents in the Great Wheel. I suppose part of my issue with it is that I'm not sure what basis there is for thinking that Faerunian deities are less powerful then their equivalents in other worlds. I'm not sure what basis there is for thinking that anything in Faerun save its archfiends is less powerful then its equivalent in other worlds. "Shouldn't" be? Why not? This seems to be entirely a matter of personal taste. Granted, but so is most any other flavor after a certain point. They're gods. All but one in their private domain.
ewancummins 07-24-07, 12:12 AM	I liked it. Love the 'loths. By far my favorite fiends. The Baerns are just plain cool. I like the idea of Ao not truly being all powerful, and of the 'loths exploiting his mistakes to enter Faerun's cosmology and stir things up.
balard 07-25-07, 12:33 PM	Very good! I really like the "exploiting" of the rules Ao set. And its a very good way to start me dming FR again"