Expedition to the Demonweb Pits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PunkRockBard
04-26-07, 06:44 PM Hello all....

i don't think i have seen a thread in here on Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Granted....the news on Dragon and Dungeon folding has pretty much overshadowed other topics.

The adventure is largely planar. How do You all like it?

i am mostly through it....and so far i am really enjoying it.

Some cool things:

1. Return of the World Tree! :) i love how the writers don't
seem confined to the earlier 3.0 rules of "core". That
Manual of the Planes needs updating with each new
WOTC creation it seems.

2. The Cranium Rat Swarm encounter was quite interesting
and thrilling.

3. Sigil itself was used well.

4. The Beastlands! i am glad that an often overlooked
plane gets a visit.

5. The "three" concept reintroduced.

6. A Yugoloth encounter :)

7. The Mirror Mephit is a truly cool creature. i like how
planes considered "optional" are now being integrated
into the core world.

Some questions/concerns/possible dislikes

1. While it was cool to be an adventurer in the same room with aspects of Lolth, Demogorgon, Obox-Ob, and crew....are the CRs a bit low...even for aspects? i spose it could be argued that the Demon Lords/Deities sent weak aspects, since they don't ultimately trust one another...and wouldn't want to lose too much power if one is tricked or defeated. Still....i am not sure i see mid-level adventurers defeating aspects of archfiends and gods.

2. The tavern in the lower ward is filled with all sorts lower-planes creatures. An illustration shows an imp, some ogrelike beings, a mezzoloth....and an ultroloth milling around.
Yes...i know.....maybe the ultroloth is exiled etc etc....and a marilith is the bartender it seems! Still.....i view pit fiends, balors, and ultroloths as the peak of non-arch fiends. an ultroloth and a mezzoloth in the same tavern? Then again....3.5 treats ultroloths as second-tier midlevel monsters. Eh. Maybe this is a bit too subjective...but it just brings up my sore feelings on anything 'lothy 3e.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-26-07, 10:54 PM ...and an ultroloth milling around.

I don't think that's an ultroloth in the background actually. For starters, that thing has a mouth, and ultroloths don't. :)
sciborg2
04-27-07, 01:53 AM i too liked the mirror mephit when i looked through the book at the local Borders. i've been debating getting it as i don't play right now and am, well, dirt-poor.

my question wrt aspects is are they avatars or completely separate beings? if the latter then i can see them as living idols to their particular gods/planar-lords. as such i think they might not even resemble the beings they are born from, which would make it interesting to have aspects of Baernoloths, the General o' Gehenna, and Apomps without ruining the mystery.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-27-07, 02:26 AM my question wrt aspects is are they avatars or completely separate beings?

W/ respect to their use in EttDWP, they're effectively lesser avatars.

Some books have used aspects in the same way, while others have used them as effectively independant extensions.
Carolan
04-27-07, 07:12 AM I thought Lolth was a little underrepresented and the climactic battle disapointing. other wise it is an excellent book. I love the Zalatar section best
PunkRockBard
04-27-07, 08:23 AM I don't think that's an ultroloth in the background actually. For starters, that thing has a mouth, and ultroloths don't. :)

Yes! i was going to comment on that also...thing is.....aside from the bizarre joker smile.....it really looks like an ultroloth. If it was intended to be...someone really needs to sit down the WOTC designers for "Yugoloths 101".

While some unnerving things are going on with DND currently (Dragon and Dungeon closing shop).....the new things going on with the planes have thrilled me to no end.
Aseran
04-27-07, 11:31 AM Heh, I'm really liking Demonweb Pits. I'm seguewaying from Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde into this new module, and it'll work extremely well in the big picture of this campaign.

I'm changing a couple things--little things like the changing of a few minor NPCs, and a few major things, as well, to better fit into our larger campaign. Such as, I've set this story in the timeline BEFORE Orcus' return, so it'll be Demogorgon who's trying to sabotage Graz'zt's scheme through the PCs, so some of those encounters and the nature of the ambassador will be very different. Lolth still plays her role, of course, and plays it with aplomb.

One thing I really, really like about Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is the fact that the course of the adventure takes into account the age-old habit of players to want to cause as much mayhem as possible, just for the fun of it, and usually to the DM's deepest chagrin. Here, though, it works. It could suit serious, straitlaced roleplayers just as well, but presents many, many opportunities for the players to just enjoy themselves.

If I have any misgiving, it's that, while Sigil is present in all it's glory, there isn't much effort to recapture any of the old flavor. Granted, this isn't Planescape, but I would have been satisfied to see so much as a single "berk" or "cutter" slip into the read-aloud dialogue or player handouts, just for old time's sake. Also, those handouts--can we PLEASE get those in PDF format? I don't want to slice up a $35 book or rely on crappy photocopies so the players can hang onto them.
Morwen
04-27-07, 06:40 PM I like the book, but I would have liked it even more if it was for groups of, say, 15th-18th level instead of 9th-12th. Demon-aspects don't really feel so much like embodiments of evil when they're CR 10-12.. Overall a nice book though; some of the new monsters will definitely be used in my campaigns :)
primemover003
04-27-07, 11:13 PM Considering the majority of groups play in the 1-15 level range it hits the sweet spot for most players (mine included).

As an Old PS fan and DM I think this is a good adventure, but it feels rushed. I'm planning on bringing a Planar party from 5th level up before I start the Expedition but I'm trying to find a plausible tie in for a group consisting of primarily CN characters. I don't want to involve Rule-of-Three too early as he's the main source of information in the Exp. Only 3 of my 9 players so far has used a Faction tie in for their character background (we're playing between 5-10 years Post FW).

My Party
Half-Minotaur/Dwarf Gladiator 4 (Doomguard)
Gloaming Wiz 3 (Sensate)
Fey'ri Rog 3
Human Dragon Shaman (copper) 5
Spellscale Harbinger 5 (variant bard-Dustmen)
Grey Elf Wiz 5
Neraph Ardent 5
Spiker Monk 5
Air Genasi Scout 4

ATM I'm thinking of engineering a power struggle between Qaida and Oridi Malefin for control of whats left of the Dustmen. Qaida's searching for all the sods who've run out on her Death Pacts since the Dustmen "disbanded", among them a handful well lanned greybeards who know how to find a minor artifact that'll give her enough power to face off against Oridi. Friar Muriov Garianis will be involved but he's curious to see who'll win between his Witch (Oridi) and the Angel of Death (Qaida). I'm tempted to make Qaida a Binder... with all her pacts and all.
I'll be seeding the greybeards in Erelhi-cinlu, Balefire, Tu'narath, Sasserine, and Dis.

Obviously Erelhi-cinlu, Balefire and Sasserine will have nice ties to Lolth and Graz'zt respectively, so I can start throwing in hints of planar events on the move.
Weenie
04-28-07, 06:02 PM So, um, about the Demonweb thing preview on the site... They finally have the 3E cambion statted, and I like it well enough, it's just that I don't understand how they came up with those freaky racial ability adjustments.

Its scores: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 4.
Its adjustments: +5 Str, +3 Dex, +3 Con, –4 Wis, –10 Cha :confused:

Shouldn't that second line be +8 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, –4 Wis, –6 Cha instead?

Edit: And a minor point - why does it have assassin as the favored class? It's a prestige class, and therefore incurs no multiclass penalty anyway (AFAIK).
ripvanwormer
04-28-07, 06:18 PM Yeah, there was a thread criticizing the cambion stats on ENWorld. The favored class should have been rogue; I think that's even implied in the text.

Monsters sometimes don't reflect the average members of their race, though; some of them have "elite arrays." The main criticism of the ability score adjustments was that some of them were odd numbers.
Weenie
04-28-07, 06:37 PM Monsters sometimes don't reflect the average members of their race, though; some of them have "elite arrays." The main criticism of the ability score adjustments was that some of them were odd numbers.

Yeah, but they were odd in more ways than one. They don't match any of the elite arrays either, with those adjustments the non-adjusted scores would be 13, 13, 13, 12, 11, 14, which is strange.

The spell-like abilities are weird too. Why 7/day and not "at will"? Why "any two of the following"?
Morwen
04-28-07, 08:06 PM The "Cambion as Characters" section is wrong on so many counts that you should simply use the actual creature statblock instead. That gives you ability score adjustments of +8, +6, +6, +2, -4, -6.
The Serge7
04-28-07, 08:08 PM Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting, this is not a bad adventure. It's a nice read and it reintroduces, for the first time I think in 3ed (someone correct me if I'm wrong) quite a few Planescape personalities (like Ro3) and locations (like Sigil) in a WotC adventure.
PunkRockBard
04-28-07, 09:56 PM Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting, this is not a bad adventure. It's a nice read and it reintroduces, for the first time I think in 3ed (someone correct me if I'm wrong) quite a few Planescape personalities (like Ro3) and locations (like Sigil) in a WotC adventure.

Sigil was officially introduce in 3.0/3.5 with Manual of the Planes..i believe. It was also written up in Planar Handbook and Cityscape. It has gotten faily good props in 3.0/3.5.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-28-07, 10:08 PM Sigil was officially introduce in 3.0/3.5 with Manual of the Planes..i believe. It was also written up in Planar Handbook and Cityscape. It has gotten faily good props in 3.0/3.5.

And it's also the featured location for the Outlands in the 3.5 DMG.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-28-07, 10:08 PM Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting,

What exactly do you mean?
The Serge7
04-28-07, 10:34 PM What exactly do you mean?
I mean that the demon princes and Lolth used low-end aspects rather than higher-end aspects in order to justify a mid-level game. While I have no issue with metagaming as a general principle (after all, it's the only way a DM can run most games), I don't care for it when it's as transparent as in this case.
tridiak
04-29-07, 03:01 AM Out of curiosity, how is Loth represented.
Her normal self or avatar self would pulverise the adventurers without some divine "protection".
Carolan
04-29-07, 06:08 AM Lolth is represented by two aspects, a 'hammer of Lolth', a brutish aspect and an 'envoy of Lolth' an aspect based on Lolth's trickery domain. The final battle is with these two aspects, one of which will have been met previously by the party. They are CR 11 and 12 respectively.
I just think they could have been more imaginative with the final encounter. By this this time the party should be 12 level and so need a CR15 encounter at least. I know with these two aspects this is a CR14 encounter, but I think it would have been better to have a single more powerful representation of Lolth for this final battle.
The Serge7
04-29-07, 08:46 AM I need to go back and review the end of the adventure, but I don't recall seeing any reason why Lolth doesn't send a more powerful aspect or even an avatar to wipe out the PCs once they show up and mess around with the summit. More blatant metagaming.
primemover003
04-29-07, 10:02 AM I think the summit is really below Lolth's radar in terms of overall importance. I mean they state frequently throughout the adventure that because she's a goddess she has less concern for abyssal politics than her own worshippers and agenda on the Prime. The Summit is really Graz'zt's brainchild. Even in 2nd ed Graz'zt through his scions (Ro3 esp.) has been trying to unite the demon lords and has even made overtures to the Baatezu to join forces and invade the Upper Planes.
Orodruin
04-29-07, 10:23 AM Even in 2nd ed Graz'zt through his scions (Ro3 esp.) has been trying to unite the demon lords and has even made overtures to the Baatezu to join forces and invade the Upper Planes.

Interesting to note that according to FC2, Asmodeus is supposed to be planning the almost the same thing. I always imagined that when he got around to forging an alliance with the demon lords, his initial overtures would be toward Graz'zt who, being the prince of tyrants, despots and guile, would be the most like-minded of the various demon princes.
ripvanwormer
04-29-07, 11:39 AM I need to go back and review the end of the adventure, but I don't recall seeing any reason why Lolth doesn't send a more powerful aspect or even an avatar to wipe out the PCs once they show up and mess around with the summit.

I seem to recall that she does, in fact - doesn't it actually say she might show up in her true form once the PCs really tick her off? I thought that was the ending, the PCs fleeing while the getting's good. The mission's accomplished, and no need to stick around any longer anyway.
Witch
04-29-07, 11:43 AM I seem to recall that she does, in fact - doesn't it actually say she might show up in her true form once the PCs really tick her off? I thought that was the ending, the PCs fleeing while the getting's good. The mission's accomplished, and no need to stick around any longer anyway.
Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless:
If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape?
Deacon Liadon
04-29-07, 04:19 PM Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless:
If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape?

Unless they manage to flee directly to Sigil, I would say about the same chance as a thief robbing the treasury of Osiris and living to tell the tale (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_PS_Comic.asp?Page=22).

Mind you, I haven't read the scenario either so I don't know how much the PC's manage to aggravate her.
twiggyleaf
04-29-07, 05:01 PM I just bought the book last week and have read through it with a view to running it with my group in a few month's time.

On first read through it looks pretty good and I am pretty excited about playing it. Quite a few people seem to mention the anticlimactic aspect of the last encounter. For those who have played through it and have noted preferences for higher CRs, would you say that I would be able to up the CR rating of the final adventure by making slightly more powerful aspects? Or are there any other suggestions. I wouldn't want to make the last encounter too easy but neither would I want the party to be demolished. How much can be added, do you think? This question is aimed at those who have played it and may have ideas on how it could have been better.

I also liked bringing Sigil back. I always liked that convergent world and it is a good way to link in from any existing campaign.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-29-07, 09:45 PM Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless:
If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape?

There are a number of open/accessable portals in the area, including one to Thanatos and a mirror opening into the so-called plane of mirrors. The former seems to imply that Orcus himself provides access/protection to PCs using it if they've acting in such a way as to aid his concerns regarding the events on layer 66 of the Abyss.

We might also conclude that the presence of so many aspects of abyssal lords might potentially cloud Lolth's access to that region of her domain, forcing her to manifest aspects/avatars to directly handle things in pseudo-person.

And at least one of the Abyssal Lords, Pale Night, is noted as being explicitely able to flaunt Lolth's control over the nature of her deific domain. Though Pale Night doesn't really seem the type of help the PCs (and she'll calmly drive them insane if they even approach her), it's made apparent that she doesn't want Lolth's pact to go through, and conceivably snubbing Lolth's ability to immediately kill any PC troublemakers would please her.
Sachiel
04-29-07, 10:30 PM I laughed so hard when I read that when there's a fight in Sigil, a Dabus will create an image of a frowning Lady of Pain.

That's so funny.
ripvanwormer
05-09-07, 07:09 PM If Lolth is a Greater Deity

Note that Lolth is still "only" an intermediate deity according to the most recent source (Drow of the Underdark).

There have been some suggestions by game designers that the results of Lolth's Silence in the Forgotten Realms setting have transformed her into a greater deity, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the core cosmology.
Witch
05-09-07, 07:28 PM Wikipedia told me the following:
At the culmination of War of the Spider Queen series Lolth achieved Greater divinity after choosing her Yor'thae (Chosen One), Danifae Yauntyrr.

But for core, you're likely correct :)
ripvanwormer
05-09-07, 08:07 PM Wikipedia told me the following:

Ah, Wikipedia. I don't think that's explicitly stated anywhere in print, but the author has said that was his intention.

The Spider Queen series also resulted in the Demonweb being pulled from the Abyss, becoming its own plane. That definitely hasn't happened in core, which is why the series is the most difficult FR thing to integrate into the single-cosmology ideal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PunkRockBard 04-26-07, 06:44 PM	Hello all.... i don't think i have seen a thread in here on Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Granted....the news on Dragon and Dungeon folding has pretty much overshadowed other topics. The adventure is largely planar. How do You all like it? i am mostly through it....and so far i am really enjoying it. Some cool things: 1. Return of the World Tree! :) i love how the writers don't seem confined to the earlier 3.0 rules of "core". That Manual of the Planes needs updating with each new WOTC creation it seems. 2. The Cranium Rat Swarm encounter was quite interesting and thrilling. 3. Sigil itself was used well. 4. The Beastlands! i am glad that an often overlooked plane gets a visit. 5. The "three" concept reintroduced. 6. A Yugoloth encounter :) 7. The Mirror Mephit is a truly cool creature. i like how planes considered "optional" are now being integrated into the core world. Some questions/concerns/possible dislikes 1. While it was cool to be an adventurer in the same room with aspects of Lolth, Demogorgon, Obox-Ob, and crew....are the CRs a bit low...even for aspects? i spose it could be argued that the Demon Lords/Deities sent weak aspects, since they don't ultimately trust one another...and wouldn't want to lose too much power if one is tricked or defeated. Still....i am not sure i see mid-level adventurers defeating aspects of archfiends and gods. 2. The tavern in the lower ward is filled with all sorts lower-planes creatures. An illustration shows an imp, some ogrelike beings, a mezzoloth....and an ultroloth milling around. Yes...i know.....maybe the ultroloth is exiled etc etc....and a marilith is the bartender it seems! Still.....i view pit fiends, balors, and ultroloths as the peak of non-arch fiends. an ultroloth and a mezzoloth in the same tavern? Then again....3.5 treats ultroloths as second-tier midlevel monsters. Eh. Maybe this is a bit too subjective...but it just brings up my sore feelings on anything 'lothy 3e.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-26-07, 10:54 PM	...and an ultroloth milling around. I don't think that's an ultroloth in the background actually. For starters, that thing has a mouth, and ultroloths don't. :)
sciborg2 04-27-07, 01:53 AM	i too liked the mirror mephit when i looked through the book at the local Borders. i've been debating getting it as i don't play right now and am, well, dirt-poor. my question wrt aspects is are they avatars or completely separate beings? if the latter then i can see them as living idols to their particular gods/planar-lords. as such i think they might not even resemble the beings they are born from, which would make it interesting to have aspects of Baernoloths, the General o' Gehenna, and Apomps without ruining the mystery.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-27-07, 02:26 AM	my question wrt aspects is are they avatars or completely separate beings? W/ respect to their use in EttDWP, they're effectively lesser avatars. Some books have used aspects in the same way, while others have used them as effectively independant extensions.
Carolan 04-27-07, 07:12 AM	I thought Lolth was a little underrepresented and the climactic battle disapointing. other wise it is an excellent book. I love the Zalatar section best
PunkRockBard 04-27-07, 08:23 AM	I don't think that's an ultroloth in the background actually. For starters, that thing has a mouth, and ultroloths don't. :) Yes! i was going to comment on that also...thing is.....aside from the bizarre joker smile.....it really looks like an ultroloth. If it was intended to be...someone really needs to sit down the WOTC designers for "Yugoloths 101". While some unnerving things are going on with DND currently (Dragon and Dungeon closing shop).....the new things going on with the planes have thrilled me to no end.
Aseran 04-27-07, 11:31 AM	Heh, I'm really liking Demonweb Pits. I'm seguewaying from Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde into this new module, and it'll work extremely well in the big picture of this campaign. I'm changing a couple things--little things like the changing of a few minor NPCs, and a few major things, as well, to better fit into our larger campaign. Such as, I've set this story in the timeline BEFORE Orcus' return, so it'll be Demogorgon who's trying to sabotage Graz'zt's scheme through the PCs, so some of those encounters and the nature of the ambassador will be very different. Lolth still plays her role, of course, and plays it with aplomb. One thing I really, really like about Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is the fact that the course of the adventure takes into account the age-old habit of players to want to cause as much mayhem as possible, just for the fun of it, and usually to the DM's deepest chagrin. Here, though, it works. It could suit serious, straitlaced roleplayers just as well, but presents many, many opportunities for the players to just enjoy themselves. If I have any misgiving, it's that, while Sigil is present in all it's glory, there isn't much effort to recapture any of the old flavor. Granted, this isn't Planescape, but I would have been satisfied to see so much as a single "berk" or "cutter" slip into the read-aloud dialogue or player handouts, just for old time's sake. Also, those handouts--can we PLEASE get those in PDF format? I don't want to slice up a $35 book or rely on crappy photocopies so the players can hang onto them.
Morwen 04-27-07, 06:40 PM	I like the book, but I would have liked it even more if it was for groups of, say, 15th-18th level instead of 9th-12th. Demon-aspects don't really feel so much like embodiments of evil when they're CR 10-12.. Overall a nice book though; some of the new monsters will definitely be used in my campaigns :)
primemover003 04-27-07, 11:13 PM	Considering the majority of groups play in the 1-15 level range it hits the sweet spot for most players (mine included). As an Old PS fan and DM I think this is a good adventure, but it feels rushed. I'm planning on bringing a Planar party from 5th level up before I start the Expedition but I'm trying to find a plausible tie in for a group consisting of primarily CN characters. I don't want to involve Rule-of-Three too early as he's the main source of information in the Exp. Only 3 of my 9 players so far has used a Faction tie in for their character background (we're playing between 5-10 years Post FW). My Party Half-Minotaur/Dwarf Gladiator 4 (Doomguard) Gloaming Wiz 3 (Sensate) Fey'ri Rog 3 Human Dragon Shaman (copper) 5 Spellscale Harbinger 5 (variant bard-Dustmen) Grey Elf Wiz 5 Neraph Ardent 5 Spiker Monk 5 Air Genasi Scout 4 ATM I'm thinking of engineering a power struggle between Qaida and Oridi Malefin for control of whats left of the Dustmen. Qaida's searching for all the sods who've run out on her Death Pacts since the Dustmen "disbanded", among them a handful well lanned greybeards who know how to find a minor artifact that'll give her enough power to face off against Oridi. Friar Muriov Garianis will be involved but he's curious to see who'll win between his Witch (Oridi) and the Angel of Death (Qaida). I'm tempted to make Qaida a Binder... with all her pacts and all. I'll be seeding the greybeards in Erelhi-cinlu, Balefire, Tu'narath, Sasserine, and Dis. Obviously Erelhi-cinlu, Balefire and Sasserine will have nice ties to Lolth and Graz'zt respectively, so I can start throwing in hints of planar events on the move.
Weenie 04-28-07, 06:02 PM	So, um, about the Demonweb thing preview on the site... They finally have the 3E cambion statted, and I like it well enough, it's just that I don't understand how they came up with those freaky racial ability adjustments. Its scores: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 4. Its adjustments: +5 Str, +3 Dex, +3 Con, –4 Wis, –10 Cha :confused: Shouldn't that second line be +8 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, –4 Wis, –6 Cha instead? Edit: And a minor point - why does it have assassin as the favored class? It's a prestige class, and therefore incurs no multiclass penalty anyway (AFAIK).
ripvanwormer 04-28-07, 06:18 PM	Yeah, there was a thread criticizing the cambion stats on ENWorld. The favored class should have been rogue; I think that's even implied in the text. Monsters sometimes don't reflect the average members of their race, though; some of them have "elite arrays." The main criticism of the ability score adjustments was that some of them were odd numbers.
Weenie 04-28-07, 06:37 PM	Monsters sometimes don't reflect the average members of their race, though; some of them have "elite arrays." The main criticism of the ability score adjustments was that some of them were odd numbers. Yeah, but they were odd in more ways than one. They don't match any of the elite arrays either, with those adjustments the non-adjusted scores would be 13, 13, 13, 12, 11, 14, which is strange. The spell-like abilities are weird too. Why 7/day and not "at will"? Why "any two of the following"?
Morwen 04-28-07, 08:06 PM	The "Cambion as Characters" section is wrong on so many counts that you should simply use the actual creature statblock instead. That gives you ability score adjustments of +8, +6, +6, +2, -4, -6.
The Serge7 04-28-07, 08:08 PM	Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting, this is not a bad adventure. It's a nice read and it reintroduces, for the first time I think in 3ed (someone correct me if I'm wrong) quite a few Planescape personalities (like Ro3) and locations (like Sigil) in a WotC adventure.
PunkRockBard 04-28-07, 09:56 PM	Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting, this is not a bad adventure. It's a nice read and it reintroduces, for the first time I think in 3ed (someone correct me if I'm wrong) quite a few Planescape personalities (like Ro3) and locations (like Sigil) in a WotC adventure. Sigil was officially introduce in 3.0/3.5 with Manual of the Planes..i believe. It was also written up in Planar Handbook and Cityscape. It has gotten faily good props in 3.0/3.5.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-28-07, 10:08 PM	Sigil was officially introduce in 3.0/3.5 with Manual of the Planes..i believe. It was also written up in Planar Handbook and Cityscape. It has gotten faily good props in 3.0/3.5. And it's also the featured location for the Outlands in the 3.5 DMG.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-28-07, 10:08 PM	Aside from the blatant metagamed use of the demon prince aspects in an a high-end Abyssal meeting, What exactly do you mean?
The Serge7 04-28-07, 10:34 PM	What exactly do you mean? I mean that the demon princes and Lolth used low-end aspects rather than higher-end aspects in order to justify a mid-level game. While I have no issue with metagaming as a general principle (after all, it's the only way a DM can run most games), I don't care for it when it's as transparent as in this case.
tridiak 04-29-07, 03:01 AM	Out of curiosity, how is Loth represented. Her normal self or avatar self would pulverise the adventurers without some divine "protection".
Carolan 04-29-07, 06:08 AM	Lolth is represented by two aspects, a 'hammer of Lolth', a brutish aspect and an 'envoy of Lolth' an aspect based on Lolth's trickery domain. The final battle is with these two aspects, one of which will have been met previously by the party. They are CR 11 and 12 respectively. I just think they could have been more imaginative with the final encounter. By this this time the party should be 12 level and so need a CR15 encounter at least. I know with these two aspects this is a CR14 encounter, but I think it would have been better to have a single more powerful representation of Lolth for this final battle.
The Serge7 04-29-07, 08:46 AM	I need to go back and review the end of the adventure, but I don't recall seeing any reason why Lolth doesn't send a more powerful aspect or even an avatar to wipe out the PCs once they show up and mess around with the summit. More blatant metagaming.
primemover003 04-29-07, 10:02 AM	I think the summit is really below Lolth's radar in terms of overall importance. I mean they state frequently throughout the adventure that because she's a goddess she has less concern for abyssal politics than her own worshippers and agenda on the Prime. The Summit is really Graz'zt's brainchild. Even in 2nd ed Graz'zt through his scions (Ro3 esp.) has been trying to unite the demon lords and has even made overtures to the Baatezu to join forces and invade the Upper Planes.
Orodruin 04-29-07, 10:23 AM	Even in 2nd ed Graz'zt through his scions (Ro3 esp.) has been trying to unite the demon lords and has even made overtures to the Baatezu to join forces and invade the Upper Planes. Interesting to note that according to FC2, Asmodeus is supposed to be planning the almost the same thing. I always imagined that when he got around to forging an alliance with the demon lords, his initial overtures would be toward Graz'zt who, being the prince of tyrants, despots and guile, would be the most like-minded of the various demon princes.
ripvanwormer 04-29-07, 11:39 AM	I need to go back and review the end of the adventure, but I don't recall seeing any reason why Lolth doesn't send a more powerful aspect or even an avatar to wipe out the PCs once they show up and mess around with the summit. I seem to recall that she does, in fact - doesn't it actually say she might show up in her true form once the PCs really tick her off? I thought that was the ending, the PCs fleeing while the getting's good. The mission's accomplished, and no need to stick around any longer anyway.
Witch 04-29-07, 11:43 AM	I seem to recall that she does, in fact - doesn't it actually say she might show up in her true form once the PCs really tick her off? I thought that was the ending, the PCs fleeing while the getting's good. The mission's accomplished, and no need to stick around any longer anyway. Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless: If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape?
Deacon Liadon 04-29-07, 04:19 PM	Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless: If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape? Unless they manage to flee directly to Sigil, I would say about the same chance as a thief robbing the treasury of Osiris and living to tell the tale (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_PS_Comic.asp?Page=22). Mind you, I haven't read the scenario either so I don't know how much the PC's manage to aggravate her.
twiggyleaf 04-29-07, 05:01 PM	I just bought the book last week and have read through it with a view to running it with my group in a few month's time. On first read through it looks pretty good and I am pretty excited about playing it. Quite a few people seem to mention the anticlimactic aspect of the last encounter. For those who have played through it and have noted preferences for higher CRs, would you say that I would be able to up the CR rating of the final adventure by making slightly more powerful aspects? Or are there any other suggestions. I wouldn't want to make the last encounter too easy but neither would I want the party to be demolished. How much can be added, do you think? This question is aimed at those who have played it and may have ideas on how it could have been better. I also liked bringing Sigil back. I always liked that convergent world and it is a good way to link in from any existing campaign.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-29-07, 09:45 PM	Not having read the adventure, I'll ask this nonetheless: If Lolth is a Greater Deity, and the Demonweb Pits her Divine Realm, then how do the PCs have any chance to escape? There are a number of open/accessable portals in the area, including one to Thanatos and a mirror opening into the so-called plane of mirrors. The former seems to imply that Orcus himself provides access/protection to PCs using it if they've acting in such a way as to aid his concerns regarding the events on layer 66 of the Abyss. We might also conclude that the presence of so many aspects of abyssal lords might potentially cloud Lolth's access to that region of her domain, forcing her to manifest aspects/avatars to directly handle things in pseudo-person. And at least one of the Abyssal Lords, Pale Night, is noted as being explicitely able to flaunt Lolth's control over the nature of her deific domain. Though Pale Night doesn't really seem the type of help the PCs (and she'll calmly drive them insane if they even approach her), it's made apparent that she doesn't want Lolth's pact to go through, and conceivably snubbing Lolth's ability to immediately kill any PC troublemakers would please her.
Sachiel 04-29-07, 10:30 PM	I laughed so hard when I read that when there's a fight in Sigil, a Dabus will create an image of a frowning Lady of Pain. That's so funny.
ripvanwormer 05-09-07, 07:09 PM	If Lolth is a Greater Deity Note that Lolth is still "only" an intermediate deity according to the most recent source (Drow of the Underdark). There have been some suggestions by game designers that the results of Lolth's Silence in the Forgotten Realms setting have transformed her into a greater deity, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the core cosmology.
Witch 05-09-07, 07:28 PM	Wikipedia told me the following: At the culmination of War of the Spider Queen series Lolth achieved Greater divinity after choosing her Yor'thae (Chosen One), Danifae Yauntyrr. But for core, you're likely correct :)
ripvanwormer 05-09-07, 08:07 PM	Wikipedia told me the following: Ah, Wikipedia. I don't think that's explicitly stated anywhere in print, but the author has said that was his intention. The Spider Queen series also resulted in the Demonweb being pulled from the Abyss, becoming its own plane. That definitely hasn't happened in core, which is why the series is the most difficult FR thing to integrate into the single-cosmology ideal.