Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tashiro 11-05-07, 07:59 PM	Funny enough, I've discussed (ranted) about this in RPGs in general but this is the first time I've considered discussing it here. I think, with 4E coming out, I sort of hoped this would be a non-issue, but it doesn't look like this will be the case. The discussion? Why on earth would anyone worship a god just bent on destruction? Who in their right mind worships a god who goes 'if you fail, I will destroy you'? Take a look at the pantheons in RL. Sure, there are gods which could be considered evil (or harmful), but most of these gods have positive aspects, which have a place within society. An evil god of war is still a god of war, and a war-like community would have a place for them. The way I see it, there are gods you would petition for aid, and gods you would petition to leave you alone. A lot of the more 'destructive' gods, you would probably petition to leave you alone and go pick on your enemies. They'd still, however, have a place in society, and would be kept appeased, not because you're an evil bastard, but because you wish them to be happy with you and to not inflict hardships on your people. The other form of 'harmful' divinities include such things as the Fortunes -- these people have a benevolent aspect, and a wrathful aspect. The 'good' and 'bad' sides of these are considered different aspects of the same god, and they could help or harm depending on what aspect was invoked or petitioned. In 4E, I'd love to see the gods designed in such a way that you didn't have to stop and wonder 'why on EARTH would anyone worship this guy?!' Yes, I can see some enjoyment in the idea of hunting down evil cultists and clerics, but I think it is more fun if they're embedded in a faith that is recognized and accepted by the city or nation you are in, and you have to work through the corruption of that faith to get to them. It shouldn't be so black and white: "He's worshipping an Evil God, and thus we can kick his butt." In one setting I designed, the Goddess of Thieves (NE) is also the Goddess of Motherhood, and the God of Greed (NE) is also the God of Merchants. The God of Hate (CE) is also the God of Retribution -- the person you petition when someone has wronged you. All these gods have their place in society, all of them are recognized, and none of the temples or faiths are 'forbidden'. Ah, which reminds me of something else... Evil worshippers of a good divinity. Why not? The god in question could have ideals that the worshipper agrees with, but their methods to enforce the god's will could be contrary to what some might expect. Religious intolerance, a biased view, or fanatical zeal could all cause someone to be quite different in Alignment than what you would expect from a 'typical' follower of the particular divinity. Personally, in 4E, I hope to see the gods a bit more organic in nature -- a part of the setting, rather than rigid persona with everything laid out in black and white. A good example is Bahamut -- the Platinum Dragon. They mentioned him in a recent article on the WotC site. Sure, he could be a good symbol for paladins, but why not holy knights in general? And what about this... a holy knight with a code of honour, but very ruthless in enforcing the rule of law. One who wishes to destroy any threat to the stability of the nation, and willing to do so in a merciless fashion? Lawful Evil? Sure, why not? Or another holy knight, one who keeps breaking the laws, because he finds them too stifling, but wishes to do as much good as he can. He has honour, but it is a more personal code, flexible enough to adapt to the times. He worships Bahamut as the shining ideal, the perfect example, but he keeps faltering along the way. He is trustworthy, he is reliable, but if the rules get in the way of doing the right thing, he'll do the right thing every time. (NG) I could easily see both these people within the same faith. I could see them not getting along, but their calling to a higher power is the unifying force behind them. This would allow a more political level of roleplay within the faith, where not everyone gets along, but they're still on the same side.
JulesCARV 11-05-07, 08:22 PM	I think that Eberron religions are what you're looking for, mostly, both in terms of motivation for worshippers and in terms of the linkage between alignment and faith being loosened. One issue that's never clarified in regular D&D, I suppose, whether you regard all deities as part of a single polytheistic religious tradition, with, for instance, Heironeous and Hextor being analogous to Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu or Horus and Set, or whether you regard the different faiths as being different and not really recognizing each others legitimacy (not claiming that other gods don't exist, but not viewing them as having any legitimate role within their own religious traditions), like the relationship between, say, Jesus Christ and Vishnu: they just don't relate to each other. (Although it seems that some Hindus do take up worship of Jesus along with the rest of their pantheon. (http://ethicalwerewolf.blogspot.com/2005/12/my-uncle-and-jesus.html)) Eberron clarifies this matter a lot. The Sovereign Host and Dark Six are all part of a common religious tradition, so someone who worships the Dark Six really is the equivalent of a Satanist, Set-worshipper, or Angra Mainyu-worshipper. On the other hand, all of the other religious traditions are independent of each other. The Path of Light doesn't really have anything to say about Aureon, the Traveller, or, for that mattter, the Silver Flame. As might be expected, worship of the Dark Six is unpopular compared to less self-consciously "antagonistic" evil religions, such as the Blood of Vol. In default D&D, though, it's all rather up in the air.
Thegans 11-05-07, 09:13 PM	Funny enough, I've discussed (ranted) about this in RPGs in general but this is the first time I've considered discussing it here. I think, with 4E coming out, I sort of hoped this would be a non-issue, but it doesn't look like this will be the case. The discussion? Why on earth would anyone worship a god just bent on destruction? Who in their right mind worships a god who goes 'if you fail, I will destroy you'? Take a look at the pantheons in RL. Sure, there are gods which could be considered evil (or harmful), but most of these gods have positive aspects, which have a place within society. An evil god of war is still a god of war, and a war-like community would have a place for them. The way I see it, there are gods you would petition for aid, and gods you would petition to leave you alone. A lot of the more 'destructive' gods, you would probably petition to leave you alone and go pick on your enemies. They'd still, however, have a place in society, and would be kept appeased, not because you're an evil bastard, but because you wish them to be happy with you and to not inflict hardships on your people. Your about right with the gods you petition to leave you alone that basically why gods considered evil (a.k.a. scared humans or embodied something that scares humans) in mythologies were worshiped. Also as for the people worshiping a god that goes ' if you fail I will destroy you' their are some people in the D&D worlds that worship a god that goes 'if you succeed everythings going to be gone.' Then again Tharzidun might not tell his cultists that part.
CryoSilver 11-05-07, 09:48 PM	Well, evil in D&D isn't the same as real world evil. It's an actual tangible force. And it's just as powerful as good. If you die and go to the Nine Hells, you have the chance (slim though it might be) to rise through the ranks to a higher forms of devil, which would give you the power you crave so much. Death is still a reward for evil in D&D, when the existence of an afterlife is known to be true. You worship a god of destruction because you enjoy destroying things, and in the afterlife, you've done it well, you get to destroy things forever.
Furryhowler 11-06-07, 03:26 AM	A quote from the 1980's TV series Robin of Sherwood regarding Simon d'Boleme, and his worship of the Devil Azeal "You're terrified of him! You're not his servant, you're his victim!"
Neutronium_Dragon 11-06-07, 04:56 AM	This is partly the fault of D&D's alignment system. Most of the equivalent gods in real-world mythology were regarded as unpleasant, but they didn't necessarily embody the "bwa-ha-ha"-ness that D&D ascribes to its evil alignment. In that regard D&D often reduces them to the level of caricature for the sake of making them fit into an alignment pigeonhole, and that goes for the entirely made up ones too. As was pointed out above, Eberron is one setting where they did things very differently, and did it right - including the evil-aligned faiths. Having a read of Faiths of Eberron will give you a whole new look at the way religion can work in the game, and in any other setting you might use.
kintire 11-06-07, 06:00 AM	The discussion? Why on earth would anyone worship a god just bent on destruction? Who in their right mind worships a god who goes 'if you fail, I will destroy you'? Arrogant people. People who believe that they won't fail, that they're to good for that. Egotists. Evil people, in fact. There are a number of reasons that they might. They want the power the god grants, and either feel that they will survive the risks, or that the risks are for other people. After all, a god of Tyranny is great if you are the Tyrant, and a god of slaughter isn't a problem if you are the slaughterer rather than the victim. In 4E, I'd love to see the gods designed in such a way that you didn't have to stop and wonder 'why on EARTH would anyone worship this guy?!' I've never really had that problem. All the evil faiths have something to offer; mostly power but also other benefits. In one setting I designed, the Goddess of Thieves (NE) is also the Goddess of Motherhood, and the God of Greed (NE) is also the God of Merchants. The God of Hate (CE) is also the God of Retribution -- the person you petition when someone has wronged you. All these gods have their place in society, all of them are recognized, and none of the temples or faiths are 'forbidden'. While it can be interesting to have a setting where a society engages in devil worship, its unlikely that good aligned faiths would tolerate it for long. Also, I'm having great difficulty in envisaging an evil goddess of motherhood... Evil worshippers of a good divinity. Why not? The god in question could have ideals that the worshipper agrees with, but their methods to enforce the god's will could be contrary to what some might expect. Religious intolerance, a biased view, or fanatical zeal could all cause someone to be quite different in Alignment than what you would expect from a 'typical' follower of the particular divinity. But remember that in most DnD settings, the gods are not passive. Its all very well considering why an evil person would offer worship to a good deity, but you also have to consider why a good deity would accept it. It isn't just a one way street.
Return of the Flumph 11-06-07, 11:37 AM	Evil gods don't generally capitalize on being "evil" so much as they do on their other portfolio elements. Some examples: Cultists of Nerull might believe that life is misery, and that the only way to save everyone is by killing them (think the necromongers from Chronicles of Riddick or the covenant from Halo). Considering the popularity of neo-platonic and gnostic faiths at various points in real life history, the idea of lots of people believing in this is not much of a stretch. Cultists of Hextor could be like Inquisition-era catholic priests or modern-day Wahabbi mullahs. Hextor is not pure evil; he encourages order, security, charity, and other classically "good" elements among his worshippers. However, he also demands that anyone who steps out of line be burned at the stake, and that nonbelievers are vermin who can be killed or converted via any underhanded tactic you can think of without moral repurcussions. Frighteningly, Hextor would do just fine if he existed IRL. Cultists of Vecna wouldn't even consider themselves religious; they'd probably see themselves as more of an intellectual or academic society than a religious one, with Vecna being their great, ascended teacher. They crave knowledge above all things, and they believe morality is an artificial construct created by lesser minds than theirs. Soulless scientists and intellectuals. Vecna's faith is far less appealing to the masses than the others, but that's okay, since his followers have always been portrayed as an underground secret society. Which makes sense. Cultists of Erythnul are likewise few and far between. Most people probably worship Erythnul as one of many gods, a patron of war and misfortune who is prayed to during times of war or strife to either appease him, or grant victory over the enemy. The few who worship him as their primary god are probably mercenaries, bandits, and others who live by the sword. If a highwayman camp or pirate ship has a priest, he is probably a cleric of Erythnul. Basically, he is a patron for criminals, for he is one of the few dieties that would condone their actions. Evil racial dieties-like Gruumsh and Megublyet-are simple. They teach that you (their own races) are good, and everyone else is bad. The races that worship them are very warlike, so there's no problem in getting people to look up to them.
JulesCARV 11-06-07, 02:38 PM	I'm mostly with RotF. As for Erythnul, let me see if I can give a plausible account of his worshippers as other than crazy people or criminals looking for any ol' god who will accept them. I see him as being a deity who frequently appeals to people's contempt or disgust at weakness or deformity. There's very little uniformity in how Erythnul is worshipped (as might be expected for a chaotic deity), ranging from fierce barbarian tribes which make the Yanomami look like pacifists to secretive fraternities in cosmopolitan cities. Sometimes, people will see someone with missing legs, or perhaps blindness from birth, or maybe severe mental retardation. Sometimes, people will look at that someone and think, "he would be better off dead. We'd all be better off if he were dead." Erythnul is the god that tells people who think such thoughts, "you're right. Let's do something about that." Erythnul's followers see themselves as culling the herd of humanity of weakness, impurity, and deformity, leaving the race stronger and purer. Often, in urban societies, Erythnul cults receive secret financial support from many small businessmen, merchants, and other petty-bourgeois members of the middle class.
Rania 11-06-07, 03:56 PM	Evil gods don't generally capitalize on being "evil" so much as they do on their other portfolio elements. Some examples: Cultists of Nerull might believe that life is misery, and that the only way to save everyone is by killing them (think the necromongers from Chronicles of Riddick or the covenant from Halo). Considering the popularity of neo-platonic and gnostic faiths at various points in real life history, the idea of lots of people believing in this is not much of a stretch. Cultists of Hextor could be like Inquisition-era catholic priests or modern-day Wahabbi mullahs. Hextor is not pure evil; he encourages order, security, charity, and other classically "good" elements among his worshipers. However, he also demands that anyone who steps out of line be burned at the stake, and that nonbelievers are vermin who can be killed or converted via any underhanded tactic you can think of without moral repercussions. Frighteningly, Hextor would do just fine if he existed IRL. Cultists of Vecna wouldn't even consider themselves religious; they'd probably see themselves as more of an intellectual or academic society than a religious one, with Vecna being their great, ascended teacher. They crave knowledge above all things, and they believe morality is an artificial construct created by lesser minds than theirs. Soulless scientists and intellectuals. Vecna's faith is far less appealing to the masses than the others, but that's okay, since his followers have always been portrayed as an underground secret society. Which makes sense. Cultists of Erythnul are likewise few and far between. Most people probably worship Erythnul as one of many gods, a patron of war and misfortune who is prayed to during times of war or strife to either appease him, or grant victory over the enemy. The few who worship him as their primary god are probably mercenaries, bandits, and others who live by the sword. If a highwayman camp or pirate ship has a priest, he is probably a cleric of Erythnul. Basically, he is a patron for criminals, for he is one of the few deities that would condone their actions. Evil racial deities-like Gruumsh and Megublyet-are simple. They teach that you (their own races) are good, and everyone else is bad. The races that worship them are very warlike, so there's no problem in getting people to look up to them.That's brilliant.
sciborg3 11-06-07, 10:42 PM	the Flumph for the win! i actually hope that Evil continues to be rewarded in D&D as I think the universe shouldn't support Good off the bat. There should be a precarious balance to be tipped, if only in one small corner of the worlds upon worlds, by the PCs...
Tashiro 11-06-07, 10:46 PM	While it can be interesting to have a setting where a society engages in devil worship, its unlikely that good aligned faiths would tolerate it for long. Also, I'm having great difficulty in envisaging an evil goddess of motherhood... Originally, she was just the goddess of thieves. When her son made the move to take the throne of Chaos, she stood by his side and supported him. She sacrificed her position in the pantheon and everything else she had, to back him for his claim to the throne. This was recognized in society, and her sacrificed was rewarded. Now, midwives wish her to 'steal' the pain away when a mother gives birth.
Return of the Flumph 11-06-07, 10:49 PM	Thanks for the praise everyone, but I really don't deserve it. Some time ago, I started a thread very much like this one, and my current take on the worshippers of evil gods is largely inspired from the feedback I got. JulesCARV, I should have phrased it better. What I meant is that Erythnull is the god of bloodshed and killing, so people like criminals and mercenaries (who depend on bloodshed and killing for their livelihood) would worship him because he presides over such matters. That said, I actually like your interpretation better, and will probably steal it.
Dam_Eht-karp 11-06-07, 11:24 PM	actually, people tend to be extremely arrogant... people devoted to something even more so... It's basically along the lines of "I know that Kartos the Vile will boil me in ichor for all eternity if I fail him, but I can't be stopped! I will not fail my dark lord!" kinda the same way most paladins have a stick up their ass and think their way is the only true one.
Return of the Flumph 11-06-07, 11:37 PM	actually, people tend to be extremely arrogant... people devoted to something even more so... It's basically along the lines of "I know that Kartos the Vile will boil me in ichor for all eternity if I fail him, but I can't be stopped! I will not fail my dark lord!" kinda the same way most paladins have a stick up their ass and think their way is the only true one. This makes 10,017 posters who don't know what a paladin is.
Dam_Eht-karp 11-06-07, 11:52 PM	I know full well what a paladin is. I also know full well how they're usually played... I unfortunately can't tell you what my old account was, otherwise you'd likely know that I tend to satirically talk of the stereotypical paladin, and not a real paladin.
Return of the Flumph 11-07-07, 12:50 AM	I know full well what a paladin is. I also know full well how they're usually played... I unfortunately can't tell you what my old account was, otherwise you'd likely know that I tend to satirically talk of the stereotypical paladin, and not a real paladin. Okay, I feel better now.
Rania 11-07-07, 11:28 AM	Okay, I feel better now.So, that makes 10, 016 posters who don't know what a paladin is?
Hammerhead 11-07-07, 06:00 PM	I'm mostly with RotF. As for Erythnul, let me see if I can give a plausible account of his worshippers as other than crazy people or criminals looking for any ol' god who will accept them. I see him as being a deity who frequently appeals to people's contempt or disgust at weakness or deformity. There's very little uniformity in how Erythnul is worshipped (as might be expected for a chaotic deity), ranging from fierce barbarian tribes which make the Yanomami look like pacifists to secretive fraternities in cosmopolitan cities. Sometimes, people will see someone with missing legs, or perhaps blindness from birth, or maybe severe mental retardation. Sometimes, people will look at that someone and think, "he would be better off dead. We'd all be better off if he were dead." Erythnul is the god that tells people who think such thoughts, "you're right. Let's do something about that." Erythnul's followers see themselves as culling the herd of humanity of weakness, impurity, and deformity, leaving the race stronger and purer. Often, in urban societies, Erythnul cults receive secret financial support from many small businessmen, merchants, and other petty-bourgeois members of the middle class. Sounds more like LE than CE to me!
Benign_Shadow_Lord 11-07-07, 06:47 PM	Forgotten realms has some realistic evil gods. The best example I think would be Bane, cause he promises his followers in reward for granting him ultimate rulership, rulership underhim as the ruleing class. I'm gonna have to look into eberon. Doesn't that have a lot of phsycic stuff. I've never really read much about it. Have any links you could put up, plz send me a message.
JulesCARV 11-08-07, 08:25 PM	Sounds more like LE than CE to me! How so, and how would you portray Erythnul and his flock?