Fallen Celestials [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fallen Celestials [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tiamat2
03-31-07, 12:47 PM The Fiendish Codices and numerous other sources (Malkazid in the FR accessories comes to mind) make references to celestials who have fallen into corruption and become archdevils or other forms of fiends.

The mechanics of this are never really discussed. When a celestial falls from grace, do they instantly become a fiend of the appropriate alignment? Does their appearance change or just their sub-type? Do they remain their celestial type, but their alignment merely shifts to reflect their corruption? Are all fallen celestial unique fiends or do they become merely a generic fiend of a similar challenge rating (for example, are they like a devilish duke or archduke or more like just a generic pit fiend or succubus or whatever who happened to have been a celestial)?

For example, let's say LG Solar Xavier falls from grace and is led astray for whatever reason. Is Xavier now a Solar with a LE alignment and subtype listing of: (angel, extraplanar, evil)? Or is he something like a pit fiend with a type (baatezu, extraplanar, evil)? Is he simply a unique devil now with whatever type the DM feels is appropriate?

Some of these issues are important in terms of substance (figuring out the appropriate SQ and Special attacks a fallen celestial now has) and others just for style, but I haven't been able to come up with an answer on my own that I'm entirely satisfied with.
The Serge7
03-31-07, 01:06 PM To my knowledge, there's no WotC source on this. To my knowledge, only Green Ronin (in Legions of Hell) and Dicefreaks (in our The Gates of Hell) have templates for fallen celestials. In the case of the former, the fallen angel receives quite a bit in return for its transition to evil; in the case of the latter, the fallen angel truly falls, losing 2 CR points in the process.
Tiamat2
03-31-07, 01:28 PM Excellent template, thanks Serge.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-31-07, 03:00 PM It seems to be something of a case by case basis what specifically happens, but in no case does a fallen celestial automatically turn into a fiend of their new alignment. The Baatezu seem very willing to accept fallen celestials that end up LE, but they appear to put them through the typical Baatezu heirarchy from the ground up, burning away the impurities so to speak, refining a new creature free of their origin. Baalzebul may or may not have had a similar experience, or he may already have been so wretchedly LE by the time he arrived in Baator that he was able to seize noble status, and be accepted by Asmodeus, etc.

While Baalzebul may have radically shifted in appearance from trumpet archon to fly-headed dude when he took the nestea plunge into Baator, his case might be a unique one. There's a partially fallen firre eladrin (CN) who has not changed form (yet), a fallen solar (N) who hasn't either, and there's a fallen trumpet archon named Alusiel (CE) in the abyss who also hasn't changed form, but has apparently gained a number of tanar'ri abilities (said to be 'virtually half tanar'ri already' from her exposure to the abyss). But then there are asuras who are fallen archons who don't fall away from good, but away from law, and in their process of exile/ejection by the other archons, they do indeed radically shift in form.

I've had fallen celestials in my own games, and I handle each one on a case by case basis, sometimes changing their forms and sometimes leaving them the same. And on the flip side of things, I tend to do the same with fiends (with a mild bias of having their exterior form shift as opposed to staying the same), and for instance I had Felthis ap Jerran (risen ultroloth, Dragon 351) transform into a new outer appearance.
Ordbyrht
03-31-07, 03:24 PM I prefer to handle fallen celestials in a way similiar to Shemeska, tailor-fitting each fallen's abilities on a case by case basis.

To my knowledge, only Green Ronin (in Legions of Hell) and Dicefreaks (in our The Gates of Hell) have templates for fallen celestials.

Malhavoc's Anger of Angels also has a Fallen Angel template (along with Outcast and Rebellious Angel templates).
Shemeska the Marauder
03-31-07, 03:30 PM WotC at some point had a fallen template in the works. An early version of the art gallery for IIRC either the MM2 or FF had a 'fallen hound archon' image, but that picture and its corresponding monster was cut during the editing process and has never made a reappearance since.
Tiamat2
03-31-07, 03:38 PM Actually you can still find the picture.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50138.jpg
ripvanwormer
03-31-07, 05:20 PM There's a fallen archon in Lord of the Iron Fortress (Zalatian, who also appeared in Hellbound: The Blood War). The statistical change is very simple: his good-related powers have all been swapped with evil-related powers. His CR hasn't changed.

This is essentially the same as the fallen angel template in Anger of Angels, and it's the pattern I followed when I statted the fallen half-celestial Qaida (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770584).

Using Anger of Angels' vocabulary, an outcast angel has fallen from grace but not embraced evil; they lose all their racial (not class) powers that specifically deal with good, and they look a bit faded or bedraggled. They lose two points of wisdom and may or may not lose CR, depending on how many powers they've lost. They may still be good-aligned. A rebellious angel has moved further from its previous status (into neutrality, but not yet into evil) and increased its confidence, gaining 2 points of charisma and regaining their lost wisdom. Any appearance change they might have is deliberate - things like tattoos, piercings and a wildly different wardrobe to emphasize their break from the past. They lose any class powers they might have had dealing with good (things like protection from evil, not undead turning or healing). Fallen angels are evil, and their ability scores are the same as the base creature's. They typically have fiendish features, but as Shemeska notes there are many examples of fallen celestials who don't have them.

The fallen solar Archimedes (neutral with good tendencies) and the fallen eladrin Cirily (chaotic neutral) would both be rebellious angels using this system, as would Gog and Kubriel (LN sword archons serving the titan Zadara). Baalzebul, the fallen deva Trias of Curst, the fallen trumpet archon Alusiel, and the fallen solar Malkizid would all be fully fallen angels, with evil powers replacing the good.

Risen fiends would work the opposite way. The outcast arcanaloth Krell has lost her evil powers, but she's still evil herself (though bedraggled and filthy). The Dreamer Prime (from Bastion of Broken Souls), a neutral night hag, would be considered "rebellious" (though her stats are unchanged from a base night hags - but then, night hags don't really have any explicitly evil powers). The risen succubus Fall-From-Grace (who is now LN) has lost her powers like desecrate and unholy blight, but she still has her vampiric kiss. Fiends who have become good, like the bebelith Abaia (who merged with a deva's spark, becoming NG) or the risen ultroloth Felthis ap Jerran, or the erinyes Nalura or the hamatula K'rand Vahlix, would logically have their evil powers replaced with equivalent good ones. Their appearance may have changed (Felthis ap Jerran looks like a cervidal with rainbow eyes), but usually their fiendish origin is still evident.
Tiamat2
03-31-07, 05:26 PM Using the Fallen template in the Gates of Hell, here is my Fallen Deva Angel. Comments/criticisms are welcome. I'm sure a lot of my math is wrong on the skills, but that doesn't concern me too much. The name is from a list of fallen Angels I found somewhere.

Azaziel
Medium Outsider (chaotic, evil, fallen, extraplanar) CR 12;

AL: CE
HP: 12d8+48 = 102 HP
Init: +8
Spd: 50 ft

Atk: +12/7/2
Melee: +18/15/8
Ranged: +16/11/6
AC: 29 (+15 natural)

Str: 22 +6
Dex: 18 +4
Con: 18 +4
Int: 18 +4
Wis: 16 +4
Cha: 22 +6

Saves: Fort +14, Reflex +12, Will +11

Special Attacks: Stun (DC 22, 1d6 rounds, 2 successful hits); Slam 1d8+9;

SQ: Fallen traits (Darkvision; low-light vision; immunity to poison, fire; resistance electricity and cold 10; +4 racial saves v. petrification; Teleport; Magic Circle Against Good CL 12; Cursed -2 Diplomacy, +2 intimidate with good creatures; Tongues); Uncanny Dodge; DR 10/evil;

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th); DC is Charisma based;
At will: Aid, Continual Flame, Detect Good, Discern Lies (DC 20), Dispel Good (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Unholy Aura (DC 24), Unholy Blite (DC 20), Unholy Word (DC 22), Invisibility (Self Only), Plane Shift (DC 23), Polymorph Self, Remove Curse (DC 19), Remove Disease (DC 19), Remove Fear (DC 17);
7/day: Inflict Light Wounds (DC 17), See Invisibility;
1/day: Blade Barrier (DC 22), Harm (DC 22);

Skills: Concentration +19, Diplomacy +23, Escape Artist +19, Hide +19, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (arcane) +19, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +19, Knowledge (the planes) +19, Listen +23, Move Silently +19, Sense Motive +18, Spot +22, Use Rope +4;

Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Power Attack;

Equipment:

Weapons: Heavy Mace +3 (+21/18/11, 1d8+12, stunning attack, blunt, large);
Shemeska the Marauder
03-31-07, 05:28 PM and it's the pattern I followed when I statted the fallen half-celestial Qaida (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770584).

Likewise, Zalatian's listing in LotIF was what I used as a model when I wrote up stats for Felthis ap Jerran (which never made it into Dragon). It's more easily applicable for Qaida though :)

Man, I need to use her again.
LazarusWizardforhire
03-31-07, 06:08 PM I don't have the BOVD, but doesn't it have some kind of 'corrupted' template? Can you apply this?
Also: maybe fallen celestials differ not only by their type and power, bu by the pacts they make to be accepted by evil. for example, some could be warlocks, others acolytes of the skin, or have added templates, or be possessed by evil objects/been tricked into pacts by fiendish manipulation of the innocent: think an angel is forced with turning to evil or letting hundreds of hostages die. I dunno. Could work...
Andyr
04-01-07, 08:13 AM The corrupted template's more useful for simple creatures who have the taint of evil in them (the example is a wolf or something)--I'd say that a more thorough treatment would be needed for an Outer Planar creature.
Tiamat2
04-03-07, 08:54 PM Is it possible for a celestial to fall and not realize it? Perhaps they remain in denial about the results of their actions or the corruption of their minds, as well as the changes in appearance? Or is the fall of a celestial literally a fall and when it happens they immediately realize it (in other words it isn't gradual, its more like a thunderclap of being kicked out of the upper planes)?

I am devising a backstory of a celestial dispatched to guard a demon lord imprisoned on the prime material, who over time is forgotten by their superiors thus becoming somewhat resentful of the sentry assignment and this opens them to "leaking" corruption from the imprisoned demon. I wanted to make sure this was semi-believable.
ripvanwormer
04-03-07, 10:20 PM Is it possible for a celestial to fall and not realize it?

Absolutely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tiamat2 03-31-07, 12:47 PM	The Fiendish Codices and numerous other sources (Malkazid in the FR accessories comes to mind) make references to celestials who have fallen into corruption and become archdevils or other forms of fiends. The mechanics of this are never really discussed. When a celestial falls from grace, do they instantly become a fiend of the appropriate alignment? Does their appearance change or just their sub-type? Do they remain their celestial type, but their alignment merely shifts to reflect their corruption? Are all fallen celestial unique fiends or do they become merely a generic fiend of a similar challenge rating (for example, are they like a devilish duke or archduke or more like just a generic pit fiend or succubus or whatever who happened to have been a celestial)? For example, let's say LG Solar Xavier falls from grace and is led astray for whatever reason. Is Xavier now a Solar with a LE alignment and subtype listing of: (angel, extraplanar, evil)? Or is he something like a pit fiend with a type (baatezu, extraplanar, evil)? Is he simply a unique devil now with whatever type the DM feels is appropriate? Some of these issues are important in terms of substance (figuring out the appropriate SQ and Special attacks a fallen celestial now has) and others just for style, but I haven't been able to come up with an answer on my own that I'm entirely satisfied with.
The Serge7 03-31-07, 01:06 PM	To my knowledge, there's no WotC source on this. To my knowledge, only Green Ronin (in Legions of Hell) and Dicefreaks (in our The Gates of Hell) have templates for fallen celestials. In the case of the former, the fallen angel receives quite a bit in return for its transition to evil; in the case of the latter, the fallen angel truly falls, losing 2 CR points in the process.
Tiamat2 03-31-07, 01:28 PM	Excellent template, thanks Serge.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-31-07, 03:00 PM	It seems to be something of a case by case basis what specifically happens, but in no case does a fallen celestial automatically turn into a fiend of their new alignment. The Baatezu seem very willing to accept fallen celestials that end up LE, but they appear to put them through the typical Baatezu heirarchy from the ground up, burning away the impurities so to speak, refining a new creature free of their origin. Baalzebul may or may not have had a similar experience, or he may already have been so wretchedly LE by the time he arrived in Baator that he was able to seize noble status, and be accepted by Asmodeus, etc. While Baalzebul may have radically shifted in appearance from trumpet archon to fly-headed dude when he took the nestea plunge into Baator, his case might be a unique one. There's a partially fallen firre eladrin (CN) who has not changed form (yet), a fallen solar (N) who hasn't either, and there's a fallen trumpet archon named Alusiel (CE) in the abyss who also hasn't changed form, but has apparently gained a number of tanar'ri abilities (said to be 'virtually half tanar'ri already' from her exposure to the abyss). But then there are asuras who are fallen archons who don't fall away from good, but away from law, and in their process of exile/ejection by the other archons, they do indeed radically shift in form. I've had fallen celestials in my own games, and I handle each one on a case by case basis, sometimes changing their forms and sometimes leaving them the same. And on the flip side of things, I tend to do the same with fiends (with a mild bias of having their exterior form shift as opposed to staying the same), and for instance I had Felthis ap Jerran (risen ultroloth, Dragon 351) transform into a new outer appearance.
Ordbyrht 03-31-07, 03:24 PM	I prefer to handle fallen celestials in a way similiar to Shemeska, tailor-fitting each fallen's abilities on a case by case basis. To my knowledge, only Green Ronin (in Legions of Hell) and Dicefreaks (in our The Gates of Hell) have templates for fallen celestials. Malhavoc's Anger of Angels also has a Fallen Angel template (along with Outcast and Rebellious Angel templates).
Shemeska the Marauder 03-31-07, 03:30 PM	WotC at some point had a fallen template in the works. An early version of the art gallery for IIRC either the MM2 or FF had a 'fallen hound archon' image, but that picture and its corresponding monster was cut during the editing process and has never made a reappearance since.
Tiamat2 03-31-07, 03:38 PM	Actually you can still find the picture. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50138.jpg
ripvanwormer 03-31-07, 05:20 PM	There's a fallen archon in Lord of the Iron Fortress (Zalatian, who also appeared in Hellbound: The Blood War). The statistical change is very simple: his good-related powers have all been swapped with evil-related powers. His CR hasn't changed. This is essentially the same as the fallen angel template in Anger of Angels, and it's the pattern I followed when I statted the fallen half-celestial Qaida (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770584). Using Anger of Angels' vocabulary, an outcast angel has fallen from grace but not embraced evil; they lose all their racial (not class) powers that specifically deal with good, and they look a bit faded or bedraggled. They lose two points of wisdom and may or may not lose CR, depending on how many powers they've lost. They may still be good-aligned. A rebellious angel has moved further from its previous status (into neutrality, but not yet into evil) and increased its confidence, gaining 2 points of charisma and regaining their lost wisdom. Any appearance change they might have is deliberate - things like tattoos, piercings and a wildly different wardrobe to emphasize their break from the past. They lose any class powers they might have had dealing with good (things like protection from evil, not undead turning or healing). Fallen angels are evil, and their ability scores are the same as the base creature's. They typically have fiendish features, but as Shemeska notes there are many examples of fallen celestials who don't have them. The fallen solar Archimedes (neutral with good tendencies) and the fallen eladrin Cirily (chaotic neutral) would both be rebellious angels using this system, as would Gog and Kubriel (LN sword archons serving the titan Zadara). Baalzebul, the fallen deva Trias of Curst, the fallen trumpet archon Alusiel, and the fallen solar Malkizid would all be fully fallen angels, with evil powers replacing the good. Risen fiends would work the opposite way. The outcast arcanaloth Krell has lost her evil powers, but she's still evil herself (though bedraggled and filthy). The Dreamer Prime (from Bastion of Broken Souls), a neutral night hag, would be considered "rebellious" (though her stats are unchanged from a base night hags - but then, night hags don't really have any explicitly evil powers). The risen succubus Fall-From-Grace (who is now LN) has lost her powers like desecrate and unholy blight, but she still has her vampiric kiss. Fiends who have become good, like the bebelith Abaia (who merged with a deva's spark, becoming NG) or the risen ultroloth Felthis ap Jerran, or the erinyes Nalura or the hamatula K'rand Vahlix, would logically have their evil powers replaced with equivalent good ones. Their appearance may have changed (Felthis ap Jerran looks like a cervidal with rainbow eyes), but usually their fiendish origin is still evident.
Tiamat2 03-31-07, 05:26 PM	Using the Fallen template in the Gates of Hell, here is my Fallen Deva Angel. Comments/criticisms are welcome. I'm sure a lot of my math is wrong on the skills, but that doesn't concern me too much. The name is from a list of fallen Angels I found somewhere. Azaziel Medium Outsider (chaotic, evil, fallen, extraplanar) CR 12; AL: CE HP: 12d8+48 = 102 HP Init: +8 Spd: 50 ft Atk: +12/7/2 Melee: +18/15/8 Ranged: +16/11/6 AC: 29 (+15 natural) Str: 22 +6 Dex: 18 +4 Con: 18 +4 Int: 18 +4 Wis: 16 +4 Cha: 22 +6 Saves: Fort +14, Reflex +12, Will +11 Special Attacks: Stun (DC 22, 1d6 rounds, 2 successful hits); Slam 1d8+9; SQ: Fallen traits (Darkvision; low-light vision; immunity to poison, fire; resistance electricity and cold 10; +4 racial saves v. petrification; Teleport; Magic Circle Against Good CL 12; Cursed -2 Diplomacy, +2 intimidate with good creatures; Tongues); Uncanny Dodge; DR 10/evil; Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th); DC is Charisma based; At will: Aid, Continual Flame, Detect Good, Discern Lies (DC 20), Dispel Good (DC 21), Dispel Magic, Unholy Aura (DC 24), Unholy Blite (DC 20), Unholy Word (DC 22), Invisibility (Self Only), Plane Shift (DC 23), Polymorph Self, Remove Curse (DC 19), Remove Disease (DC 19), Remove Fear (DC 17); 7/day: Inflict Light Wounds (DC 17), See Invisibility; 1/day: Blade Barrier (DC 22), Harm (DC 22); Skills: Concentration +19, Diplomacy +23, Escape Artist +19, Hide +19, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (arcane) +19, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +19, Knowledge (the planes) +19, Listen +23, Move Silently +19, Sense Motive +18, Spot +22, Use Rope +4; Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Power Attack; Equipment: Weapons: Heavy Mace +3 (+21/18/11, 1d8+12, stunning attack, blunt, large);
Shemeska the Marauder 03-31-07, 05:28 PM	and it's the pattern I followed when I statted the fallen half-celestial Qaida (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=770584). Likewise, Zalatian's listing in LotIF was what I used as a model when I wrote up stats for Felthis ap Jerran (which never made it into Dragon). It's more easily applicable for Qaida though :) Man, I need to use her again.
LazarusWizardforhire 03-31-07, 06:08 PM	I don't have the BOVD, but doesn't it have some kind of 'corrupted' template? Can you apply this? Also: maybe fallen celestials differ not only by their type and power, bu by the pacts they make to be accepted by evil. for example, some could be warlocks, others acolytes of the skin, or have added templates, or be possessed by evil objects/been tricked into pacts by fiendish manipulation of the innocent: think an angel is forced with turning to evil or letting hundreds of hostages die. I dunno. Could work...
Andyr 04-01-07, 08:13 AM	The corrupted template's more useful for simple creatures who have the taint of evil in them (the example is a wolf or something)--I'd say that a more thorough treatment would be needed for an Outer Planar creature.
Tiamat2 04-03-07, 08:54 PM	Is it possible for a celestial to fall and not realize it? Perhaps they remain in denial about the results of their actions or the corruption of their minds, as well as the changes in appearance? Or is the fall of a celestial literally a fall and when it happens they immediately realize it (in other words it isn't gradual, its more like a thunderclap of being kicked out of the upper planes)? I am devising a backstory of a celestial dispatched to guard a demon lord imprisoned on the prime material, who over time is forgotten by their superiors thus becoming somewhat resentful of the sentry assignment and this opens them to "leaking" corruption from the imprisoned demon. I wanted to make sure this was semi-believable.
ripvanwormer 04-03-07, 10:20 PM	Is it possible for a celestial to fall and not realize it? Absolutely.