Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thegans 04-16-07, 08:02 PM	After reading the Far Out Rant topic and look up some information on the Far Realm I came up with this theory on the Far Realm and the nature of its inhabitants. 1. The inhabitants have no nature. 2. The Far Realm is not a plane but a creature. This theory may seem odd and I am not completely sure about it my self but I noticed a few things about the Far Realm. 1. The Far Realm layers are thinner than the layers of other outer planes and are constantly dieng, dividing, spawning, and breathing. 2. The same creatures can exist in more than one spot in the Far Realm if native to it. 3. Pseudonatural creatures take on the traits of creatures in out world when summoned. 4. The Kaotri while originally from the normal world can no longer survive their. 5. Despite being for lack of better terms a true neutral realm almost all the creatures from the Far Realm that enter the prime material plane are evil. These five things have a few similarities to biological life form. 1. The Far Realm is growing while parts of it dissapear - In biological life forms while new cells are being created old cells are dieing. This allows out bodies to grow to maturity while keeing us from turning into a giant tumor. 2. Multidimentional life forms - This may seem like a streach but there similar to bacteria. When bacteria divides it creates two identical copies of its self. Give the bacteria something resembling sentience and you have a creature existing in two places at the same time now all you need is a chemical signal and many of the same creatures indifferent places become an organ. 3. Pseudonatural - The ability that pseudonatural creatures have to take on the forms of prime material creatures is similar to the ability that some viruses have to mutate in order to survive in a host. 4. Kaotori - From what I now of them they were originially elves that exploded the Far Realm and lost the ability to exist on the prime. The Kaotori were not meants to exist in the Far Realm but changed to be unable to exist outside of it. This is similar to the tape worm in that a tape worm can not survive without a host even through in all technicallity it should not be their. 5. Evil - Their are two ways to explain this one viruses and blood transfusions. If the creatures are evil because they are evil then they could be considered viruses since if their going to destroy things hear their going to do the same in the Far Realm. They might even think this world is another far Realm and try to replicate in it. If they are blood transfusions then the Far Realms blood is simply incompatible with the prime and they register as evil becuase their existince damaged the prime. This is similar to the effect of giving a person with type A blood type B blood. Well thats the theory.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 08:28 PM	It's certainly an interesting theory. I disagree on every single point, but I love your take on it. I love that D&D has an intricate world that people can discuss, theorize and argue about. I like to imagine that scholars and sages in the game world propose theories like these.
sciborg2 04-16-07, 09:19 PM	I too don't totally agree, but I DO agree this is a great take on the subject. I'm sure you could get a PhD on Toril, Oerth, or Sigil with these conjectures. :)
Return of the Flumph 04-16-07, 09:22 PM	You've pointed out how various creatures in the Far Realms resemble certain terrestrial ones, but I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Far Realms is a single, all encompassing being. The layers shift and divide a lot, but I see that as more a result of the Far Realms being the place of infinite possibility; some of these shifting dimensions eventually solidify into self-sustaining cosmologies like the Great Wheel. Interestingly, my homebrew uses the exact opposite concept; that being that the universe is a living organism and the Far Realms are the space that the creature inhabits.
Yanagita Kunio 04-16-07, 10:14 PM	It's an interesting, thus good, theory. I'd say that the Far Realms are like the hinterlands between the "interior" Wheel and the truly incomprehensible "exterior" of Outside, kin to the Hebrew sheol or the Vedic vana. Whereas Outside proper really is beyond morality or sensory descriptors, the Far Realms are the region of overlap where accrue discarded and deformed concepts native to the Wheel, which are in turn made more strange, more liminal, by their glancing exposure to whatever memes ricochet within Outside. The Far Realms (and its inhabitants) is ozone to the conventional O2 of the atmosphere...just as fragile, just as reactive, just as rarified and energetic in their conditions of creation and destruction. Flumph - I sometimes describe the Wheel as a single-cell eukaryotic organism, of which the Far Realms are the phospholipid bilayer and transmembrane proteins.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 10:20 PM	Interestingly, my homebrew uses the exact opposite concept; that being that the universe is a living organism and the Far Realms are the space that the creature inhabits. My homebrew uses yet another side of it. The far realms and great wheel are just places, but the void of nothingness outside the multiverse is a "living" creature, awakened by the intrusion of a foreign body in its natural state of nothingness and attempting to dislodge it. Even the far realm was scared of "The Other", which tried to spread non-existance. (In my cosmology, spheres of annihlation were extensions of this being).
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 10:21 PM	Flumph - I sometimes describe the Wheel as a single-cell eukaryotic organism, of which the Far Realms are the phospholipid bilayer and transmembrane proteins. Is it geeky that I understood this?
Return of the Flumph 04-16-07, 10:38 PM	Is it geeky that I understood this? No. However, you are geeky for where you found it.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 11:03 PM	No. However, you are geeky for where you found it. Huh? Oh you mean on this forum?
Khoran 04-17-07, 01:24 AM	My idea on the Far Realms is two fold: One, it's chaos. In this "plane" there is no form of logic or reason, things just are. In this sence, the "creatures" of the far realm don't truely exist as something like an alienist would summon, but rather it would be forced into a shape when it enters a domain where logic, reason and natural law exist even the chaotic plains have some logic to them. Second is that the Far Realms are between the different existances, and that all forms of existance come from some form of logic or reason begin formed within this chaos, and from that, a reality forms. I suppose the best analogy is that it is similar to darkness in a sence. Darkness is the absence of light, The Far Realms are the absence of a definable reality. Then again, I'm also slightly mad :P
Zenogias 04-17-07, 03:18 AM	Perhaps instead of the Far Realm being the true Chaos, it is the true Random. Chaos theory insists that all things are connected, where one event leads to another, and another, and another, so that eventually a butterfly flaps its wings and a hurricane occurs on the other side of the world because of the simple effort building into a strong momentum. Random theory, things are without cause. Causality no longer exists. The connections between events are not attached and things blink into and out of existence without pattern or any form of norm. At least, that's my take on it. Perhaps all events and actions on all planes of existence, weither Lawful or Chaotic, Evil or Good, all could have had other events take place instead of the ones that actually happened. Perhaps those 'unhappened' happenings collide and pop into a tormented existence within the Far Plane as bits and pieces of what could have been in the Realms of 'Normalcy'. The difference being is that all these events that could have happened are twisted, brought inside out, combined, reversed, taken apart and reshaped into nothing that they once were. Perhaps this is the Far Plane? The Realm of Beginnings and Ends......But that is just another idea.
Khoran 04-17-07, 04:19 AM	Yes, random is a more apporpriate for my idea then chaotic. I had forgotten that whole causality thing. Also, with your theory, this is just me thinking. What happens if two events are highly similar and the two unhappened events connect rather then crash inside the far realm, would there be some sort of new effect? Would it not matter and the effects remain the same? Is that impossible and therefore does not need to be answered?
Khael 04-17-07, 04:46 AM	My homebrew uses yet another side of it. The far realms and great wheel are just places, but the void of nothingness outside the multiverse is a "living" creature, awakened by the intrusion of a foreign body in its natural state of nothingness and attempting to dislodge it. Even the far realm was scared of "The Other", which tried to spread non-existance. (In my cosmology, spheres of annihlation were extensions of this being). Amen to this one. But I went one further into a how-reality-can-come-to-be-there. It's an interesting idea to work off, I know that... And Thegans, I think its an interesting idea, but I agree with very little of it.
Thegans 04-17-07, 04:00 PM	Amen to this one. But I went one further into a how-reality-can-come-to-be-there. It's an interesting idea to work off, I know that... And Thegans, I think its an interesting idea, but I agree with very little of it. Like I said I am not completely sure of it myself but from the descriptions I heard of it the Far Realm basically seems like something you would expect to find while looking at a piece of moldy bread under a microscope.
Khael 04-17-07, 05:26 PM	It's a bit more than that: No-one knows what the far realms are (Offical material wise), beyond the home of the elder gods, such as Cthulhu. Even the beings ther are unknown in their diversity, but I suspect the range is similar to those in the dungeon dimensions of discworld lore: The prettiest looks (to us) like the offspring of a bicycle, an octopus and a garden hosepipe. However since the option seems to be open I'll give my virew on these three (I know nothing of Kaotri, and the first is... too possible, since the far realms are so undocumented) 2. The same creatures can exist in more than one spot in the Far Realm if native to it. 3. Pseudonatural creatures take on the traits of creatures in out world when summoned. 5. Despite being for lack of better terms a true neutral realm almost all the creatures from the Far Realm that enter the prime material plane are evil. 2) Prove it. Identical twins, coincidence, time-space hole (so it physically is the same being in two places). We don't know, or it might just be you're facing off two avatars of a great old one. 3)I'd be more inclined to believe the pseudonatural creature does not take on the form, but is forced into it. It is quite likely a farrealm spawn of any kind is so bizarre in appearance techincally most beings can't imagine one, becasue the closest thing is too 'normal'. They would go insane (ala the legendary power of Cthulhu), so the wizard unbeknowst does not summon this visage of insanity: He forces it into a shape he can comprehend, and this is a 'pseudonatural' being. 5) We can't assume the beings are evil. We don't know enough about the place to know. For all we know they are simply very very PO'd if found on the material etc. for whatever reason (Extra dimensions people unconsiously insult it on, or ignore it on, being very lost and/or alone, being forced into a form totally alien to it, being forced into a restrictive number of dimensions etc.). Until we know any thing of those we can't call farrealm spawn as a kind evil, only N (In that they could be any alignment, or beyond our sense of moral. Or they might be very nice and LG people and we insult them on so many levels they act E around humans.) Bear in mind those are my views and not intended to replace etc. your theory's up there.
Khoran 04-17-07, 05:37 PM	Khael, with point 5, you make a very valid point. You can't assume the creatures of the Far Realm are good or evil. Infact, from the Psudonatural template from Complete Arcane, it mentions nothing of the creatures alignment and the example creature they give is TN. While this could just be it mimicing the creature it's replicating, we can assume that it is infact a neutral being. However, if the former is true and it is replicating the base creatures features, including alignment then we come across something truely strange. That the "Creatures" of the Far Realms are without alignment, that in their existance, there is no law, chaos, good or evil.
Thegans 04-17-07, 07:23 PM	2) Prove it. Identical twins, coincidence, time-space hole (so it physically is the same being in two places). We don't know, or it might just be you're facing off two avatars of a great old one. 3)I'd be more inclined to believe the pseudonatural creature does not take on the form, but is forced into it. It is quite likely a farrealm spawn of any kind is so bizarre in appearance techincally most beings can't imagine one, becasue the closest thing is too 'normal'. They would go insane (ala the legendary power of Cthulhu), so the wizard unbeknowst does not summon this visage of insanity: He forces it into a shape he can comprehend, and this is a 'pseudonatural' being. 5) We can't assume the beings are evil. We don't know enough about the place to know. For all we know they are simply very very PO'd if found on the material etc. for whatever reason (Extra dimensions people unconsiously insult it on, or ignore it on, being very lost and/or alone, being forced into a form totally alien to it, being forced into a restrictive number of dimensions etc.). Until we know any thing of those we can't call farrealm spawn as a kind evil, only N (In that they could be any alignment, or beyond our sense of moral. Or they might be very nice and LG people and we insult them on so many levels they act E around humans.) My sources of infromation are rather limited because of trouble with online purchasing and badly stocked book stores so most of my information is stuff you can find on the computer. Most of which might not be completly acurate. 2. You have a good point about the avatar of the Old Ones. I really only found one source that mentions the natives to the far realm are able to exist in more than one far realm layer at a time. Although this could simply be that since there is no time there is nothing to stop them from reaching point b before the leave part A. Once again thats if the information I found is correct. 3. The wizard accidently changing the creature does make sense with the nature of certain illusion spells. 5. With this one you have a point it could also be that good and evil are swaped in the far realm. The main thing when I came up with this were the Uvuudaum and if i remember correctly the Neh-thalggu. If I remember correctly the Neh-thalggu can communicate intelligently using its psychic powers and has a neutral evil alignment. (I think the book I have with them in it says they came from the Far Realm but I can't check it right now.) The Uvuudaum can also communicate with any creature with a language and if i remember correctly they have the the evil sub type. The makes two out of three evil cretures if my sources and memory are correct. As for the Kaotri all I know is that they were elves or humans that entered the far realm and mutated.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-18-07, 12:26 PM	The Neh-Thagglu are Chaotic Neutral, unless the ELH retconned them. I'll check.
CryoSilver 04-18-07, 02:36 PM	Interesting take. I left the Far Realsm untouched for my CS; they are literally beyond comprehension, sans drugs. In fact, as I've said in another thread, when the Far Realms are involved, I consult a friend who is tripping on some substance or another.
ManTimeForgot 09-05-07, 12:08 AM	I came up with a decidedly different theory for the explanation of Far Realm in a thread that has apparently since died. In sum: I posited that Far Realm was the border realm between the material realms and "supreme reality" (ultimate existence, God, Prime Mover, whatever method of ultimate causation the cosmology has). This very neatly explains the existence of wildly variable deep level cosmological characteristics of Far Realm by the supposition that as one approaches infinity the greater the breakdown of logic; while explaining the similarities to normal reality as a matter of proximity (being close in cosmological nature to normal reality means that roughly normal things will tend to exist). The biological analogy does carry some weight, though when one considers how the alignment system in D&D works. Alignment as we understand it should not apply in Far Realm, and thus it should probably not be that anything summoned from Far Realm would translate into or register as Evil aligned. The possible explanations as you hint upon are actually pretty good: 1: If Far Realm beings are part of a greater whole, that is more important than traditional cosmology, and thus violating it is a crime, then forceable removal from their role would tend to make them unmitigatingly angry. 2: If Far Realm beings are compelled to recreate Far Realm due to some kind of biologic imperative, then this might register as Evil, but this only makes sense if the recreation of Far Realm would necessarily harm/destroy life OR (a more likely premise) show a disdain or undermine sentience. 3: If Far Realm beings are naturally antagonistic to all other beings/forms of existence and therefore the only reason preventing their acquisition of an Evil alignment is Far Realm's distinct lack of "idealogical forces" then it is a matter of necessity that as soon as Far Realm entities are brought to "normal" reality that they would acquire an Evil alignment because they are by nature antagonistic to life. The interesting question thought is that if Far Realm is a living being, and the beings contained therein are naturally antagonistic to everything else, then what purpose does this serve in the cosmology? As a possible thought on this particular avenue of discussion it is conceivable that Far Realm is a kind of Evil Twin/Oppositional Mirror of "normal" realm. Suppose we invoke a kind of dualistic cosmology wherein all positive attributes necessitate the existence of their opposite. We can then conclude that the existence of a natural, non-living cosmology would necessitate the existence of a fundamentally unnatural, deadly, living cosmology to "balance" the scales. In a similiar vein we could also presuppose that whatever being created the normal cosmology had to use a process which had "waste" product, and that Far Realm was "waste" product. This would, however, lend more credence (if a biological analogy is used) to the notion that Far Realm creatures are evil because they would tend to want to recreate their natural environment which is fundamentally untenable for the existence of normal living beings. Another possibility is that Far Realm creatures are so foreign to our own type of existence that the very act of forcing them to conform even somewhat to our own existence causes a painful (or otherwise suprememly undesireable) transformation/warping of their forms/being that they are inclined to be driven mad/desire revenge. I am intrigued by the possibilities a living Far Realm entails, but am still more prone to using a more cosmological answer. But, nonetheless, good job. MTF
schpeelah 09-05-07, 01:03 PM	2. The same creatures can exist in more than one spot in the Far Realm if native to it.The way i've read it, they arent in two spots. They are in the same spot on multiple layers. It looks like Far Realm has four spatial dimentions. Creatures native to multiverse are thin in the fourth dimention so they exist only on one layer at once. Inhabitants of Far Realm are not restricted in this way. 5. Despite being for lack of better terms a true neutral realm almost all the creatures from the Far Realm that enter the prime material plane are evil. They are not all inherently evil. They are just confused - morality is something completly new to them, they had not such things at home. ManTimeForgot +1
Ornum 09-05-07, 01:47 PM	The way i've read it, they arent in two spots. They are in the same spot on multiple layers. It looks like Far Realm has four spatial dimentions. Creatures native to multiverse are thin in the fourth dimention so they exist only on one layer at once. Inhabitants of Far Realm are not restricted in this way. Not that it invalidates your statement, but the "4th" dimension is generally considered to be "time". If a Far Realms creature can travel through time as easily as it can walk a straight line, then that could be scary. Of course, that wouldn't apply in our three dimensional world, but only in the Far Realms. They could exit the Far Realm to the "regular world" at any point in time, I suppose. That could actually go a long way in explaining the whole idea behind the "great empire in the future" that the mind flayers once had before they traveled back in time. It could also help explain how certain alien entities can come back to threaten a world when the histories clearly state that said entity was destroyed at some point in the past.
schpeelah 09-05-07, 02:40 PM	No, i ment an actual 4th spatial dimention, not present in the normal worlds. The layers are said to be "from 1 inch to 100 miles thick, typically 10 ft." in that dimention. Anyway, one can exit Far Realm at any point of time regardless of when he entered. Unless he used the same portal that was continously open durin the visit. It's in the description of Far Realm. (Well, the part with the portal is not)
ManTimeForgot 09-11-07, 03:03 AM	Not that it invalidates your statement, but the "4th" dimension is generally considered to be "time". If a Far Realms creature can travel through time as easily as it can walk a straight line, then that could be scary. Of course, that wouldn't apply in our three dimensional world, but only in the Far Realms. They could exit the Far Realm to the "regular world" at any point in time, I suppose. That could actually go a long way in explaining the whole idea behind the "great empire in the future" that the mind flayers once had before they traveled back in time. It could also help explain how certain alien entities can come back to threaten a world when the histories clearly state that said entity was destroyed at some point in the past. This may also explain why Mind Flayers look like little Cthulu's :P. But seriously anything which tried to use Far Realm to travel through time should come out majorly screwed up... Oh wait :lightbulb This explains why Mind Flayers and their CR 25? Elder Brains are so bloody powerful and so insane they can't get along well with others; they are infused with the Far Realm mindset of seeing all other life forms as nothing. MTF
Kesuk2k5 09-11-07, 12:36 PM	Heh. Yeah, nice take. In my setting the Far Realm is both a place and the god of madness and corruption, existing outside of divine ranks. All sorts of ideas, sane and not, come from him.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-12-07, 12:32 AM	This is a pretty cool theory. Hey, I just got an idea for a campaign! Take an Norse style world (Asgard, Midgard, niflheim... I think) Yggdrasil is the tree of the world, and the Midgard serpent is a trailing piece of the far realm. The cow and the giant that formed in the beginning were random effects of he far realm. Odin and his brothers killed the giant and used him to build a sanctuary from the madness; the CS, a stable reality. Eh, weird. ----- Funny how many people don't have the far realm as the ultimate outside... My main CS that I'm working on, the cosmos was created to keep the ultimate power (at least as far as the cosmos is concerned) from being bored. A region of void exists between it and the far realm; the void is something like timeless space from sluggy freelance, and where you would find the corporeal existence of a vestige. beyond the void is the far realm, but that isn't all; the far realm is just the extent of that place which ration creatures (ones originating in the cosmos or another "real" place) can handle. The true far realm exists without any semblance of rules or balance, and creatures in the accessible far realm can't comfortably live there any more than inside the more stable cosmos.