Fharlanghn and the sentient undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fharlanghn and the sentient undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xuchibara
07-16-07, 10:54 PM We are playing a Planescape-ish campaign, and our group is currently within a city in the elemental plane of salt. The city is populated by the sentient undead (necropolitans and such), many of whom claim to be followers of Fharlanghn, and to have extended their lives through undeath to further explore the world and the planes.

To make matters more interesting, a large group of Dustmen has set to besieging the city, with intent to destroy all the undead within.

In our group is a neutral cleric of Fharlanghn, and our DM was at a loss to how to respond to his "direct connection to god" inquiries. Would Fharlanghn encourage his cleric to defend the undead who claim to be his followers? Would he prefer that the cleric work with the Dustmen to put an end to those undead who refuse to accept a natural end to their lives? Or should he take the path of neutrality and stay uninvolved?

Any insights into how Fharlanghn might view this situation are appreciated - our DM is looking for input.
Kihon
07-16-07, 10:57 PM Be Neutral - remain silent - and once the dust settles claim victory either way. You meant for your undead followers to succeed and so you helped them destroy the dustmen, or you meant for the dustmen to succeed and kill the undead. No mortal will ever know your mind, and they don't have to - the beauty of being neutral (imo).
xuchibara
07-16-07, 11:09 PM Thanks for the response - is that your opinion on what the party should do, or your opinion on what Fharlanghn would tell his cleric to do?

I'm interested in the latter.
Reversefigure4
07-16-07, 11:28 PM Fharlanghn stands for protection. Are these necropolitans harming anyone, particularly helpless travellers?

On the other hand, the Dustmen have attacked their city, clearly bringing the aggression. Are these undead actually guilty of anything other than being undead?
TurnCloak_Kobold
07-17-07, 12:57 AM i like the last response, but i have to agree. are they true worshipers, these undead guys. if they are, then the cleric should support.

but the point was brought up, the undead where attacked, i believe that Fharlanghn might see it as a great in-justice if people where attacked without provacation and his own cleric did not jump to there aid.
xuchibara
07-17-07, 03:55 AM The sentient undead are harming no one - they chose their path of undeath to further explore the world and the planes, and are not malicious at all. They certainly seem to believe themselves to be true worshippers.

The Dustmen see all undead as an affront to their philosophy, and wish their demise.

So Fharlanghn would wish for the protection of any of his followers, even ones that happened to be undead? He as a God is not anti-undead?
WombleHunter
07-17-07, 08:30 AM I call shenanigans. If they're such devoted followers, why do they have a city at all? It's not like they need shelter, sleep, or sustenance. If they really are devoted to Fharlanghn so much that they undergo the Ritual of Crucimigration to continue it, then they should be, you know, actually TRAVELLING instead of sitting near the Negative Energy Plane.

As such, I can only conclude that these undead are either yanking your chain or are self deluded. In either case, default to the normal response: kill them, and take their stuff.
ripvanwormer
07-17-07, 10:44 AM So Fharlanghn would wish for the protection of any of his followers, even ones that happened to be undead? He as a God is not anti-undead?

I don't think Fharlanghn is particularly anti-undead. Pelor, Ehlonna, and Obad-hai are anti-undead, but Fharlanghn is a neutral deity with no particular ties to nature or light. It seems to me that he'd watch over the travels of undead just as much as he watches over the travels of the living.

You said the opportunity explore was the whole reason they became undead, so that sounds like something Fharlanghn would very much appreciate. It's possible they also revere Fharlanghn as the deity who watched over their journey to their new home, and they propitiate him in gratitude for helping them survive that journey. It's a stretch, but they could also worship him as the guide between the worlds of life and undeath.
Asra
07-18-07, 04:26 PM I don't know if Fharlanghn is particularly vengeful, but he could always side with the Dustmen, being a Neutral God means its pretty up in the air. I mean, they built a city, for a god of traveling the planes. Its like clearing a forest to make a temple of Ehlonna.
TurnCloak_Kobold
07-19-07, 03:01 AM i like the call on the travling part, these dustmen really have overstepped. i agree that hes not really a god of anti-undeath, as that is pelor country. but at the same time the city thing is a good point. but just because you live in a city dosent mean you dont have travels.

in fact i would argue that the dustmen are preventing the undeads travels by keeping them wholed up inside the city, preventing any venturing out.
Derren S.
07-19-07, 04:19 AM I agree with WombleHunter. Why have they build a city instead of actually travelling? Of course one can argue that they need at least some sort of supplies to explore (weapons, spells,...) but that should be done by others.
ripvanwormer
07-19-07, 04:53 PM I agree with WombleHunter. Why have they build a city instead of actually travelling?
I don't agree. Travelers need ports, places to resupply, places to build inns, places to congregate and plan. They need places to host conventions and places to hide out when their plans go awry. All of these things are perfectly appropriate for the church of a god of travelers to involve itself with. Why risk leaving these tasks to others when the faithful of Fharlanghn know so much better what travelers need?

Are you saying that worshipers of Fharlanghn can never build permanent settlements of any kind? That seems overly literal. They're not necessarily nomads, just people who appreciate the god who watches over journeys. Fharlanghn attracts people of all stripes, and not all his worshipers have to be his clones.
TurnCloak_Kobold
07-19-07, 05:02 PM agreed, not all worshipers of the god of travel have to be monks and other people that have the ability to live free of civilization.
WombleHunter
07-19-07, 07:02 PM I don't agree. Travelers need ports, places to resupply, places to build inns, places to congregate and plan. They need places to host conventions and places to hide out when their plans go awry. All of these things are perfectly appropriate for the church of a god of travelers to involve itself with. Why risk leaving these tasks to others when the faithful of Fharlanghn know so much better what travelers need?

Are you saying that worshipers of Fharlanghn can never build permanent settlements of any kind? That seems overly literal. They're not necessarily nomads, just people who appreciate the god who watches over journeys. Fharlanghn attracts people of all stripes, and not all his worshipers have to be his clones.
Undead don't need supplies or places to sleep or shelter to congregate in.

All I'm saying is that these guys underwent the Ritual of Crucimigration in order to continue the worship of their deity. They literally crucified themselves, then used dark necromantic rituals so that they could live forever, quite possibly at the cost of their eternal souls (depending on how it is ruled what being undead does to the soul - I'm a fan of "consumed by negative energy" myself) - all for the greater glory of Fharlanghn. If you're that fanatic, I don't see building a city - which you don't even need - as holding to your original mandate.

"Behold, I have survived the crucifixion to travel in your name! But first, let me just settle down over here..."

Obviously normal worshippers of Fharlanghn are normal people. These guys aren't. As I said, IMO they're either deluding the characters or themselves; in the first case the killing and taking of stuff is a given; in the second case it's their abomination undead state that tips the scales.
locustechpriest
07-19-07, 07:29 PM I don't see what everyone has against abominations. I mean, what about being an abomination is so awful?

Anyway, it looks like we are coming from a flawed, or at least messy, premise. And that tends to make everything else more difficult.

I could see even undead creatures needing a homepage, a rally point, if you will, to coordinate their exploration and share their maps and equations. If this is more like a temple and library, then that makes wonderful sense, but if it is a housing settlement, and the majority of these folk just lase around at home... (pun lase=>laze)... then there may be a problem.
Zousha_Omenohu
07-19-07, 11:57 PM The only undead abomination is the atropal, and something that terrible would never be in the service of Fharlangan (probably butchered the spelling there). Abominations, like the above-mentioned atropal and things like Anaxims, Chicimecs and the god-killing Hecatoncheires are supremely powerful beings that even the gods cannot defeat, but only imprison. If you're wondering why those are reviled by the community, then now you have an inkling of what Epic characters stand against regularly.

If you were just wondering about why people dislike the undead, the mainstream view is that undeath is a perversion of the natural order. Death is meant to be permanent (to a certain degree, since spells like Raise Dead and Ressurection are perfectly acceptable in injury related deaths). This is why druids hate the undead, because they do not follow the cycle of life and death, defying nature's mandate and "living" when they shouldn't, which gets druids very, very ticked off. Generally speaking, a cleric's opinion of the undead differs depending on the god. In the case of the goodly gods, undeath is viewed as a desecration, since death is supposed to bring you in communion with your god, and undeath cuts the poor dead people off, so to speak. Nature gods basically feel the same way druids do. And the common NPC? Let me explain with the following scenario:

Your loving grandma has passed away and has been in the ground for about 2 years now. Then, your friendly neighborhood necromancer comes along and animates the corpse because he needs it for something, and when he's finished, he sends it to your home to eat your brains. I imagine that in that situation, you'd be pretty p***** off at the necromancer for doing that to your granny and then making her hurt you, which was something that your sweet granny would never do when she was alive. So once you've saved grandma by blowing her head off with your shotgun, you decide to grab your torch and pitchfork and invite your neighbors to a little necromancer barbeque.
Soon, another necromancer comes along and decides that your town would be a great place to start a family, but after what that first necromancer did to your granny, you're not about to let it happen again. So you have another necromancer barbeque, and then you hang his wife and kids. And the lovely vicious cycle continues until the entire world hates undead things.

Sorry if that got a little odd. I think I might have gotten carried away!:D
ripvanwormer
07-20-07, 01:26 AM Undead don't need supplies or places to sleep or shelter to congregate in.

Living travelers who blunder into the Plane of Salt do - they need a place to rest while exploring the planes, with hospitable hosts. The undead don't need sleep, but they still need shelter from the stinging salt storms, places to meet and congregate and swap stories of their journeys, crowds and safehouses to get lost in while hiding from pursuers, craftsfolk who create haversacks and backpacks and climbing equipment and walking sticks and hang-gliders and swim fins and wagons and saddles for undead horses all sorts of things.

If you're that fanatic, I don't see building a city - which you don't even need - as holding to your original mandate.

I don't agree with you. Besides everything else, a city is itself a fascinating place to explore, as worthy as anywhere else.

In addition, I reread the original post in the thread:

"The city is populated by the sentient undead (necropolitans and such), many of whom claim to be followers of Fharlanghn, and to have extended their lives through undeath to further explore the world and the planes."

It says many of them worship Fharlanghn (or claim to), but not all of them by any means. The city could have been built by undead who have nothing to do with Fharlanghn; over the years, however, many Fharlanghn-worshipping undead have ended up there. They're not necessarily permanent residents! This is just where they are at the moment.

They claim to have become undead for the sake of exploration, not for the sake of Fharlanghn directly. Fharlanghn is simply their patron; they appreciate exploration, and therefore appreciate him as well. This doesn't mean they're more fanatical in their worship than Fharlanghn's other worshipers. Even if they're fanatical about exploring places, they might be fairly mild enthusiasts of the god.
WombleHunter
07-20-07, 08:21 AM Mmm, I see your point.
Qwicksilver
07-20-07, 03:23 PM Well the "city" point remains a some-wat valid point in that Fharlanghn (such a hard name to spell and pronounce) is a god who encourages constant movement as opposed to the staid life of a city. I think the intent of the city is also important. Is it a great port city, or some kind of frontier outpost, such places would probably garner some form of approval from the god of roads. I don't think he would deny that all roads have destinations and stops along the way. I think he denies that one should be committed to a single destination or stop.

With that said, I don't think he would be particularly against undead attempting to travel the sights of the material and the outer planes. You have to remember, though, that Fharlanghn is the diety of the of travel within the material plane not the outer planes, although he is brother to the god of planar travel. I doubt he would in any way demand direct intervention for these reasons, but he would probably regard it as a pleasing act if the party were to defeat the undead's enemies, assuming those enemies wish to enslave them.
locustechpriest
07-21-07, 03:17 AM Zousha_Omenohu, you sufficiently crushed my whimsical joking statement. At any rate, the actual reason that druids hate the undead is that things around them break down, turning into a twisted rot the defys the natural cycles of nature. If the undead didn't affect their surroundings, I doubt anti-necromantic zealots would be a problem.
Zousha_Omenohu
07-21-07, 02:25 PM Forgive me. I thought you were being serious. No hard feelings?

And furthermore, I don't recall anything about the undead rotting the landscape around them. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Sigurd van Norhusen
07-25-07, 04:08 AM Forgive me. I thought you were being serious. No hard feelings?

And furthermore, I don't recall anything about the undead rotting the landscape around them. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Libris Mortis states that every undead is a little portal to the Negative Energy Plane, so they are surrounded by a constant chill, because their little portals draw the Positive Energy into themselves to power the undead.

This has not been stated anywhere else before to my knowledge, and even in the book itself (which goes out of its way to make undeath corrupting) it is not more than a chill and not a fearful corruptive malady.

Quite in fact, I recall in a Planescape book (I think) that it was stated that Planar Druids come to accept Undead as sorta-natural as they become more adjusted to the Planes. I think it is save to say that Prime Druids think Undead are unnatural because they are Clueless (and because of their personal and cultural biases which have no equivalent in the grander cosmic things - see part 2 of Zousha_Omenohu's post for a good example of that).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xuchibara 07-16-07, 10:54 PM	We are playing a Planescape-ish campaign, and our group is currently within a city in the elemental plane of salt. The city is populated by the sentient undead (necropolitans and such), many of whom claim to be followers of Fharlanghn, and to have extended their lives through undeath to further explore the world and the planes. To make matters more interesting, a large group of Dustmen has set to besieging the city, with intent to destroy all the undead within. In our group is a neutral cleric of Fharlanghn, and our DM was at a loss to how to respond to his "direct connection to god" inquiries. Would Fharlanghn encourage his cleric to defend the undead who claim to be his followers? Would he prefer that the cleric work with the Dustmen to put an end to those undead who refuse to accept a natural end to their lives? Or should he take the path of neutrality and stay uninvolved? Any insights into how Fharlanghn might view this situation are appreciated - our DM is looking for input.
Kihon 07-16-07, 10:57 PM	Be Neutral - remain silent - and once the dust settles claim victory either way. You meant for your undead followers to succeed and so you helped them destroy the dustmen, or you meant for the dustmen to succeed and kill the undead. No mortal will ever know your mind, and they don't have to - the beauty of being neutral (imo).
xuchibara 07-16-07, 11:09 PM	Thanks for the response - is that your opinion on what the party should do, or your opinion on what Fharlanghn would tell his cleric to do? I'm interested in the latter.
Reversefigure4 07-16-07, 11:28 PM	Fharlanghn stands for protection. Are these necropolitans harming anyone, particularly helpless travellers? On the other hand, the Dustmen have attacked their city, clearly bringing the aggression. Are these undead actually guilty of anything other than being undead?
TurnCloak_Kobold 07-17-07, 12:57 AM	i like the last response, but i have to agree. are they true worshipers, these undead guys. if they are, then the cleric should support. but the point was brought up, the undead where attacked, i believe that Fharlanghn might see it as a great in-justice if people where attacked without provacation and his own cleric did not jump to there aid.
xuchibara 07-17-07, 03:55 AM	The sentient undead are harming no one - they chose their path of undeath to further explore the world and the planes, and are not malicious at all. They certainly seem to believe themselves to be true worshippers. The Dustmen see all undead as an affront to their philosophy, and wish their demise. So Fharlanghn would wish for the protection of any of his followers, even ones that happened to be undead? He as a God is not anti-undead?
WombleHunter 07-17-07, 08:30 AM	I call shenanigans. If they're such devoted followers, why do they have a city at all? It's not like they need shelter, sleep, or sustenance. If they really are devoted to Fharlanghn so much that they undergo the Ritual of Crucimigration to continue it, then they should be, you know, actually TRAVELLING instead of sitting near the Negative Energy Plane. As such, I can only conclude that these undead are either yanking your chain or are self deluded. In either case, default to the normal response: kill them, and take their stuff.
ripvanwormer 07-17-07, 10:44 AM	So Fharlanghn would wish for the protection of any of his followers, even ones that happened to be undead? He as a God is not anti-undead? I don't think Fharlanghn is particularly anti-undead. Pelor, Ehlonna, and Obad-hai are anti-undead, but Fharlanghn is a neutral deity with no particular ties to nature or light. It seems to me that he'd watch over the travels of undead just as much as he watches over the travels of the living. You said the opportunity explore was the whole reason they became undead, so that sounds like something Fharlanghn would very much appreciate. It's possible they also revere Fharlanghn as the deity who watched over their journey to their new home, and they propitiate him in gratitude for helping them survive that journey. It's a stretch, but they could also worship him as the guide between the worlds of life and undeath.
Asra 07-18-07, 04:26 PM	I don't know if Fharlanghn is particularly vengeful, but he could always side with the Dustmen, being a Neutral God means its pretty up in the air. I mean, they built a city, for a god of traveling the planes. Its like clearing a forest to make a temple of Ehlonna.
TurnCloak_Kobold 07-19-07, 03:01 AM	i like the call on the travling part, these dustmen really have overstepped. i agree that hes not really a god of anti-undeath, as that is pelor country. but at the same time the city thing is a good point. but just because you live in a city dosent mean you dont have travels. in fact i would argue that the dustmen are preventing the undeads travels by keeping them wholed up inside the city, preventing any venturing out.
Derren S. 07-19-07, 04:19 AM	I agree with WombleHunter. Why have they build a city instead of actually travelling? Of course one can argue that they need at least some sort of supplies to explore (weapons, spells,...) but that should be done by others.
ripvanwormer 07-19-07, 04:53 PM	I agree with WombleHunter. Why have they build a city instead of actually travelling? I don't agree. Travelers need ports, places to resupply, places to build inns, places to congregate and plan. They need places to host conventions and places to hide out when their plans go awry. All of these things are perfectly appropriate for the church of a god of travelers to involve itself with. Why risk leaving these tasks to others when the faithful of Fharlanghn know so much better what travelers need? Are you saying that worshipers of Fharlanghn can never build permanent settlements of any kind? That seems overly literal. They're not necessarily nomads, just people who appreciate the god who watches over journeys. Fharlanghn attracts people of all stripes, and not all his worshipers have to be his clones.
TurnCloak_Kobold 07-19-07, 05:02 PM	agreed, not all worshipers of the god of travel have to be monks and other people that have the ability to live free of civilization.
WombleHunter 07-19-07, 07:02 PM	I don't agree. Travelers need ports, places to resupply, places to build inns, places to congregate and plan. They need places to host conventions and places to hide out when their plans go awry. All of these things are perfectly appropriate for the church of a god of travelers to involve itself with. Why risk leaving these tasks to others when the faithful of Fharlanghn know so much better what travelers need? Are you saying that worshipers of Fharlanghn can never build permanent settlements of any kind? That seems overly literal. They're not necessarily nomads, just people who appreciate the god who watches over journeys. Fharlanghn attracts people of all stripes, and not all his worshipers have to be his clones. Undead don't need supplies or places to sleep or shelter to congregate in. All I'm saying is that these guys underwent the Ritual of Crucimigration in order to continue the worship of their deity. They literally crucified themselves, then used dark necromantic rituals so that they could live forever, quite possibly at the cost of their eternal souls (depending on how it is ruled what being undead does to the soul - I'm a fan of "consumed by negative energy" myself) - all for the greater glory of Fharlanghn. If you're that fanatic, I don't see building a city - which you don't even need - as holding to your original mandate. "Behold, I have survived the crucifixion to travel in your name! But first, let me just settle down over here..." Obviously normal worshippers of Fharlanghn are normal people. These guys aren't. As I said, IMO they're either deluding the characters or themselves; in the first case the killing and taking of stuff is a given; in the second case it's their abomination undead state that tips the scales.
locustechpriest 07-19-07, 07:29 PM	I don't see what everyone has against abominations. I mean, what about being an abomination is so awful? Anyway, it looks like we are coming from a flawed, or at least messy, premise. And that tends to make everything else more difficult. I could see even undead creatures needing a homepage, a rally point, if you will, to coordinate their exploration and share their maps and equations. If this is more like a temple and library, then that makes wonderful sense, but if it is a housing settlement, and the majority of these folk just lase around at home... (pun lase=>laze)... then there may be a problem.
Zousha_Omenohu 07-19-07, 11:57 PM	The only undead abomination is the atropal, and something that terrible would never be in the service of Fharlangan (probably butchered the spelling there). Abominations, like the above-mentioned atropal and things like Anaxims, Chicimecs and the god-killing Hecatoncheires are supremely powerful beings that even the gods cannot defeat, but only imprison. If you're wondering why those are reviled by the community, then now you have an inkling of what Epic characters stand against regularly. If you were just wondering about why people dislike the undead, the mainstream view is that undeath is a perversion of the natural order. Death is meant to be permanent (to a certain degree, since spells like Raise Dead and Ressurection are perfectly acceptable in injury related deaths). This is why druids hate the undead, because they do not follow the cycle of life and death, defying nature's mandate and "living" when they shouldn't, which gets druids very, very ticked off. Generally speaking, a cleric's opinion of the undead differs depending on the god. In the case of the goodly gods, undeath is viewed as a desecration, since death is supposed to bring you in communion with your god, and undeath cuts the poor dead people off, so to speak. Nature gods basically feel the same way druids do. And the common NPC? Let me explain with the following scenario: Your loving grandma has passed away and has been in the ground for about 2 years now. Then, your friendly neighborhood necromancer comes along and animates the corpse because he needs it for something, and when he's finished, he sends it to your home to eat your brains. I imagine that in that situation, you'd be pretty p***** off at the necromancer for doing that to your granny and then making her hurt you, which was something that your sweet granny would never do when she was alive. So once you've saved grandma by blowing her head off with your shotgun, you decide to grab your torch and pitchfork and invite your neighbors to a little necromancer barbeque. Soon, another necromancer comes along and decides that your town would be a great place to start a family, but after what that first necromancer did to your granny, you're not about to let it happen again. So you have another necromancer barbeque, and then you hang his wife and kids. And the lovely vicious cycle continues until the entire world hates undead things. Sorry if that got a little odd. I think I might have gotten carried away!:D
ripvanwormer 07-20-07, 01:26 AM	Undead don't need supplies or places to sleep or shelter to congregate in. Living travelers who blunder into the Plane of Salt do - they need a place to rest while exploring the planes, with hospitable hosts. The undead don't need sleep, but they still need shelter from the stinging salt storms, places to meet and congregate and swap stories of their journeys, crowds and safehouses to get lost in while hiding from pursuers, craftsfolk who create haversacks and backpacks and climbing equipment and walking sticks and hang-gliders and swim fins and wagons and saddles for undead horses all sorts of things. If you're that fanatic, I don't see building a city - which you don't even need - as holding to your original mandate. I don't agree with you. Besides everything else, a city is itself a fascinating place to explore, as worthy as anywhere else. In addition, I reread the original post in the thread: "The city is populated by the sentient undead (necropolitans and such), many of whom claim to be followers of Fharlanghn, and to have extended their lives through undeath to further explore the world and the planes." It says many of them worship Fharlanghn (or claim to), but not all of them by any means. The city could have been built by undead who have nothing to do with Fharlanghn; over the years, however, many Fharlanghn-worshipping undead have ended up there. They're not necessarily permanent residents! This is just where they are at the moment. They claim to have become undead for the sake of exploration, not for the sake of Fharlanghn directly. Fharlanghn is simply their patron; they appreciate exploration, and therefore appreciate him as well. This doesn't mean they're more fanatical in their worship than Fharlanghn's other worshipers. Even if they're fanatical about exploring places, they might be fairly mild enthusiasts of the god.
WombleHunter 07-20-07, 08:21 AM	Mmm, I see your point.
Qwicksilver 07-20-07, 03:23 PM	Well the "city" point remains a some-wat valid point in that Fharlanghn (such a hard name to spell and pronounce) is a god who encourages constant movement as opposed to the staid life of a city. I think the intent of the city is also important. Is it a great port city, or some kind of frontier outpost, such places would probably garner some form of approval from the god of roads. I don't think he would deny that all roads have destinations and stops along the way. I think he denies that one should be committed to a single destination or stop. With that said, I don't think he would be particularly against undead attempting to travel the sights of the material and the outer planes. You have to remember, though, that Fharlanghn is the diety of the of travel within the material plane not the outer planes, although he is brother to the god of planar travel. I doubt he would in any way demand direct intervention for these reasons, but he would probably regard it as a pleasing act if the party were to defeat the undead's enemies, assuming those enemies wish to enslave them.
locustechpriest 07-21-07, 03:17 AM	Zousha_Omenohu, you sufficiently crushed my whimsical joking statement. At any rate, the actual reason that druids hate the undead is that things around them break down, turning into a twisted rot the defys the natural cycles of nature. If the undead didn't affect their surroundings, I doubt anti-necromantic zealots would be a problem.
Zousha_Omenohu 07-21-07, 02:25 PM	Forgive me. I thought you were being serious. No hard feelings? And furthermore, I don't recall anything about the undead rotting the landscape around them. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-25-07, 04:08 AM	Forgive me. I thought you were being serious. No hard feelings? And furthermore, I don't recall anything about the undead rotting the landscape around them. Could you perhaps elaborate? Libris Mortis states that every undead is a little portal to the Negative Energy Plane, so they are surrounded by a constant chill, because their little portals draw the Positive Energy into themselves to power the undead. This has not been stated anywhere else before to my knowledge, and even in the book itself (which goes out of its way to make undeath corrupting) it is not more than a chill and not a fearful corruptive malady. Quite in fact, I recall in a Planescape book (I think) that it was stated that Planar Druids come to accept Undead as sorta-natural as they become more adjusted to the Planes. I think it is save to say that Prime Druids think Undead are unnatural because they are Clueless (and because of their personal and cultural biases which have no equivalent in the grander cosmic things - see part 2 of Zousha_Omenohu's post for a good example of that).