Fire Elemental and Water Elemental = ? Paraelemental [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fire Elemental and Water Elemental = ? Paraelemental [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rinian2
03-18-08, 07:43 AM I was just having a look at the paraelementals in the Manual of the Planes and, aside from Earth and Water making Ooze of all things, I was surprised to find that there was no paraelemental combinations for Fire and Water.

At first, I thought that this was because the Elemental Planes of Fire and Water didn't share any part of their boundaries but there are stats for Smoke Paraelementals and there seems to be no common border between Air and Fire either.

What does everyone think the Paraelemental of Fire and Water would be? To me, the idea of a Steam Paraelemental seems a likely combination except for the whole Air-y nature of steam.

Any ideas?
Naderion
03-18-08, 08:12 AM I think the idea is that fire and water are opposed to each other, so they don't mix. For the same reason there's no dust elemental.

(Though there are both steam and dust mephits).
Kain_Darkwind
03-18-08, 12:09 PM Air borders Fire and Water. There is no combination of an Air and Earth elemental.

Fire borders Air and Earth. There is no combination of a Water and Fire elemental.

The paramentals are along the border regions.

Ooze - water/earth
Magma - earth/fire
Smoke - fire/air
Ice - air/water

However, there are quasimentals, where the elements border the energy planes. They are, if I remember correctly...

Radiance - positive/fire
Mineral - positive/earth
Steam - positive/water
Lightning - positive/air

Ash - negative/fire
Dust - negative/earth
Salt - negative/water
Vacuum - negative/air
Shemeska the Marauder
03-18-08, 06:21 PM -disregard that, I was busy munching a larvae-
Kain_Darkwind
03-18-08, 07:05 PM The smoke "paraelemental" is a renamed 2e smoke quasielemental. The combinations of elements were retained, but the actual reasoning behind them, and the naming dynamic that went along with it was fudged in the 3e sources.

Ah...are you sure? I'm pretty sure 2e had smoke paraelementals and steam quasielementals. (Or in my copy of the Monstrous Compendium III, Qualielementals.)

I've never seen any smoke quasielementals in any edition.

The only thing I can really see that the 3e MotP messed up on was not giving the ice paramentals (yes, I shorthand the term) the Water subtype.

And not really doing the best mechanics for the paramentals as they could have.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-18-08, 07:39 PM Ah...are you sure?

Averaging 3 hours of sleep for the last 3 days and trying to hit a self-imposed writing deadline while simultaneously being on-call for my day-job, I completely misread the entirety of the original post. Ignore what I said, because it was so wrong my brain hurts looking at it.
Kain_Darkwind
03-18-08, 08:03 PM Averaging 3 hours of sleep for the last 3 days and trying to hit a self-imposed writing deadline while simultaneously being on-call for my day-job, I completely misread the entirety of the original post. Ignore what I said, because it was so wrong my brain hurts looking at it.

It happens. And while it is clear you have no good excuse for it, I'll forgive you anyways.

Here's a related question you might know that I have no idea on. Are the Storm Kings of Arcadia (3e MotP p. 131) connected to paramentals at all? I can't find out much about them, so I'm assuming it is an obscure reference to something like the Malhavok thing.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-18-08, 08:52 PM It happens. And while it is clear you have no good excuse for it, I'll forgive you anyways.

Here's a related question you might know that I have no idea on. Are the Storm Kings of Arcadia (3e MotP p. 131) connected to paramentals at all? I can't find out much about them, so I'm assuming it is an obscure reference to something like the Malhavok thing.

Nope. The storm kings came from the planes of law supplement originally IIRC, and no connection to elementals that I know of.
RavinRay
03-18-08, 10:58 PM Not in the current D&D cosmology, Air and Earth do not touch, and neither do Fire and Water. However, if your Inner Planes form a tetrahedron (not a cube) with the Energy Planes excluded, then each of the four Elemental Planes touches the other three. Then you could get a steam and dust paraelemental.

Note that the steam and dust mephits each have only one elemental subtype; for that matter, the other "paraelemental" mephits are likewise.
MythMage
03-23-08, 12:35 AM Not in the current D&D cosmology, Air and Earth do not touch, and neither do Fire and Water. However, if your Inner Planes form a tetrahedron (not a cube) with the Energy Planes excluded, then each of the four Elemental Planes touches the other three. Then you could get a steam and dust paraelemental.

Note that the steam and dust mephits each have only one elemental subtype; for that matter, the other "paraelemental" mephits are likewise.
Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy.
Kain_Darkwind
03-23-08, 12:47 AM Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy.

As stated above. :D
RavinRay
03-23-08, 08:53 AM Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy.
Yeah in 2e; but there's a variant by this Pathfinder guy (no connection with Paizo) who did what I mentioned. I don't recall that positively-charged steam is boiling hot, BTW, just fizzy.
ArcTan
03-24-08, 06:48 AM I was just having a look at the paraelementals in the Manual of the Planes and, aside from Earth and Water making Ooze of all things, I was surprised to find that there was no paraelemental combinations for Fire and Water.

At first, I thought that this was because the Elemental Planes of Fire and Water didn't share any part of their boundaries but there are stats for Smoke Paraelementals and there seems to be no common border between Air and Fire either.

Er, yes, there is. The Inner Planes go in a ring, that goes Air->Fire->Earth->Water. Air borders Fire and Water, Fire borders Earth and Air, etc.

Air and Earth are "opposite" elements and therefore have no combination. Same with Fire and Water.

What does everyone think the Paraelemental of Fire and Water would be? To me, the idea of a Steam Paraelemental seems a likely combination except for the whole Air-y nature of steam.

Any ideas?

According to the logic of D&D rules, Fire and Water are opposites and completely cancel each other out.

According to *actual* logic it's obvious that Steam should be the combination of Fire and Water, but whatever.
sciborg3
03-24-08, 01:04 PM There was a creature called a wavefire that was believed to be a throw back from a time when Fire and Water were not opposites. It's in the Planescape monstrous compendium III
Kain_Darkwind
03-24-08, 02:37 PM There was a creature called a wavefire that was believed to be a throw back from a time when Fire and Water were not opposites. It's in the Planescape monstrous compendium III

Ah. So that's where the paramental plane of Dust (earth, air) and paramental plane of Steam (fire, water) came from.
sciborg3
03-24-08, 02:45 PM I've never heard of a paraplane of Dust - was that from the Planescape novel freely offered online? :confused:
Kain_Darkwind
03-24-08, 03:43 PM I've never heard of a paraplane of Dust - was that from the Planescape novel freely offered online? :confused:

No, it was mentioned in the same writeup of the wavefire. First paragraph. The one I looked up and read after you posted regarding it....?
sciborg3
03-24-08, 03:48 PM Hah. Sorry, don't have my PS MC III with me...
Naderion
03-24-08, 04:50 PM Er, yes, there is. The Inner Planes go in a ring, that goes Air->Fire->Earth->Water. Air borders Fire and Water, Fire borders Earth and Air, etc.

Air and Earth are "opposite" elements and therefore have no combination. Same with Fire and Water.
In my setting, fire and water touch at the same point were air and earth touch, which is the material plane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rinian2 03-18-08, 07:43 AM	I was just having a look at the paraelementals in the Manual of the Planes and, aside from Earth and Water making Ooze of all things, I was surprised to find that there was no paraelemental combinations for Fire and Water. At first, I thought that this was because the Elemental Planes of Fire and Water didn't share any part of their boundaries but there are stats for Smoke Paraelementals and there seems to be no common border between Air and Fire either. What does everyone think the Paraelemental of Fire and Water would be? To me, the idea of a Steam Paraelemental seems a likely combination except for the whole Air-y nature of steam. Any ideas?
Naderion 03-18-08, 08:12 AM	I think the idea is that fire and water are opposed to each other, so they don't mix. For the same reason there's no dust elemental. (Though there are both steam and dust mephits).
Kain_Darkwind 03-18-08, 12:09 PM	Air borders Fire and Water. There is no combination of an Air and Earth elemental. Fire borders Air and Earth. There is no combination of a Water and Fire elemental. The paramentals are along the border regions. Ooze - water/earth Magma - earth/fire Smoke - fire/air Ice - air/water However, there are quasimentals, where the elements border the energy planes. They are, if I remember correctly... Radiance - positive/fire Mineral - positive/earth Steam - positive/water Lightning - positive/air Ash - negative/fire Dust - negative/earth Salt - negative/water Vacuum - negative/air
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-08, 06:21 PM	-disregard that, I was busy munching a larvae-
Kain_Darkwind 03-18-08, 07:05 PM	The smoke "paraelemental" is a renamed 2e smoke quasielemental. The combinations of elements were retained, but the actual reasoning behind them, and the naming dynamic that went along with it was fudged in the 3e sources. Ah...are you sure? I'm pretty sure 2e had smoke paraelementals and steam quasielementals. (Or in my copy of the Monstrous Compendium III, Qualielementals.) I've never seen any smoke quasielementals in any edition. The only thing I can really see that the 3e MotP messed up on was not giving the ice paramentals (yes, I shorthand the term) the Water subtype. And not really doing the best mechanics for the paramentals as they could have.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-08, 07:39 PM	Ah...are you sure? Averaging 3 hours of sleep for the last 3 days and trying to hit a self-imposed writing deadline while simultaneously being on-call for my day-job, I completely misread the entirety of the original post. Ignore what I said, because it was so wrong my brain hurts looking at it.
Kain_Darkwind 03-18-08, 08:03 PM	Averaging 3 hours of sleep for the last 3 days and trying to hit a self-imposed writing deadline while simultaneously being on-call for my day-job, I completely misread the entirety of the original post. Ignore what I said, because it was so wrong my brain hurts looking at it. It happens. And while it is clear you have no good excuse for it, I'll forgive you anyways. Here's a related question you might know that I have no idea on. Are the Storm Kings of Arcadia (3e MotP p. 131) connected to paramentals at all? I can't find out much about them, so I'm assuming it is an obscure reference to something like the Malhavok thing.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-18-08, 08:52 PM	It happens. And while it is clear you have no good excuse for it, I'll forgive you anyways. Here's a related question you might know that I have no idea on. Are the Storm Kings of Arcadia (3e MotP p. 131) connected to paramentals at all? I can't find out much about them, so I'm assuming it is an obscure reference to something like the Malhavok thing. Nope. The storm kings came from the planes of law supplement originally IIRC, and no connection to elementals that I know of.
RavinRay 03-18-08, 10:58 PM	Not in the current D&D cosmology, Air and Earth do not touch, and neither do Fire and Water. However, if your Inner Planes form a tetrahedron (not a cube) with the Energy Planes excluded, then each of the four Elemental Planes touches the other three. Then you could get a steam and dust paraelemental. Note that the steam and dust mephits each have only one elemental subtype; for that matter, the other "paraelemental" mephits are likewise.
MythMage 03-23-08, 12:35 AM	Not in the current D&D cosmology, Air and Earth do not touch, and neither do Fire and Water. However, if your Inner Planes form a tetrahedron (not a cube) with the Energy Planes excluded, then each of the four Elemental Planes touches the other three. Then you could get a steam and dust paraelemental. Note that the steam and dust mephits each have only one elemental subtype; for that matter, the other "paraelemental" mephits are likewise. Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy.
Kain_Darkwind 03-23-08, 12:47 AM	Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy. As stated above. :D
RavinRay 03-23-08, 08:53 AM	Note that steam and dust are NOT water+fire or earth+air. Rather, steam is water+positive energy, and dust is earth+negative energy. Yeah in 2e; but there's a variant by this Pathfinder guy (no connection with Paizo) who did what I mentioned. I don't recall that positively-charged steam is boiling hot, BTW, just fizzy.
ArcTan 03-24-08, 06:48 AM	I was just having a look at the paraelementals in the Manual of the Planes and, aside from Earth and Water making Ooze of all things, I was surprised to find that there was no paraelemental combinations for Fire and Water. At first, I thought that this was because the Elemental Planes of Fire and Water didn't share any part of their boundaries but there are stats for Smoke Paraelementals and there seems to be no common border between Air and Fire either. Er, yes, there is. The Inner Planes go in a ring, that goes Air->Fire->Earth->Water. Air borders Fire and Water, Fire borders Earth and Air, etc. Air and Earth are "opposite" elements and therefore have no combination. Same with Fire and Water. What does everyone think the Paraelemental of Fire and Water would be? To me, the idea of a Steam Paraelemental seems a likely combination except for the whole Air-y nature of steam. Any ideas? According to the logic of D&D rules, Fire and Water are opposites and completely cancel each other out. According to actual logic it's obvious that Steam should be the combination of Fire and Water, but whatever.
sciborg3 03-24-08, 01:04 PM	There was a creature called a wavefire that was believed to be a throw back from a time when Fire and Water were not opposites. It's in the Planescape monstrous compendium III
Kain_Darkwind 03-24-08, 02:37 PM	There was a creature called a wavefire that was believed to be a throw back from a time when Fire and Water were not opposites. It's in the Planescape monstrous compendium III Ah. So that's where the paramental plane of Dust (earth, air) and paramental plane of Steam (fire, water) came from.
sciborg3 03-24-08, 02:45 PM	I've never heard of a paraplane of Dust - was that from the Planescape novel freely offered online? :confused:
Kain_Darkwind 03-24-08, 03:43 PM	I've never heard of a paraplane of Dust - was that from the Planescape novel freely offered online? :confused: No, it was mentioned in the same writeup of the wavefire. First paragraph. The one I looked up and read after you posted regarding it....?
sciborg3 03-24-08, 03:48 PM	Hah. Sorry, don't have my PS MC III with me...
Naderion 03-24-08, 04:50 PM	Er, yes, there is. The Inner Planes go in a ring, that goes Air->Fire->Earth->Water. Air borders Fire and Water, Fire borders Earth and Air, etc. Air and Earth are "opposite" elements and therefore have no combination. Same with Fire and Water. In my setting, fire and water touch at the same point were air and earth touch, which is the material plane.