Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nilbog 07-02-07, 05:31 PM	In my opinion, the LN and CN outsiders are seriously screwed up. ... okay, before everybody decides to flame me, let's see... 1) The Formians are Lawful Neutral, but act Lawful Evil (enslaving, dominating, etc.) and should be Lawful Evil. 2) The Formians are boring. Big ants ... big whoop. (These two points shouldn't be all that controversial, I think most people here agree...) 3) Modrons have a cool concept, but they look stupid. Look at the 1e pictures of them ... eeeh. Then, in 2e, they decided to make them all "mechanical" and play up the geometry thing, which was kind of dumb. 4) The Slaadi, despite all being exemplars of ultimate Chaos, all have the same shape. They have more in common with each other than the different forms of Devils. WHY??? (and yes, I know MotP says it's because Ssendam changed the Spawning Stone. I still think it seriously hurts Chaos.) 5) The Slaadi act awfully evil for CN guys. CN can perform evil acts, but if they don't do good acts as well, they eventually become CE. What's the last Good thing a slaad did? And finally... 6) The Slaad aren't OGC, so you can't use them if you're writing up your own campaign setting to distribute on the Internet. T
Adrez Nesnsid 07-02-07, 05:45 PM	6) The Slaad aren't OGC, so you can't use them if you're writing up your own campaign setting to distribute on the Internet. If its on the net I don't think that Wizards really cares as long as you don't reprint the stat block or sell it for money, (but don't take my word for it; I haven't seen anything actually stated to that effect, its just the impression that I get from the other D&D websites out there). If you're still worried anyway, I would reccomend referring to them (as well as all other non OGL creatures) as "Magnum Innominandum" followed by a Monster Manual page number reference.......
Rerecros 07-02-07, 05:50 PM	I've heard these complaints before, and they are correct. What is your solution? I wouldn't bother with the LN outsiders, the kickassness of the inevitables makes up for the rest. CN is are hard alignment to create a useful race for, since chaos lets them do what they want, but they neither feel the need to protect the liberties of others like CG, or attack those different from themselves like CE.
Deacon Liadon 07-02-07, 05:52 PM	Not all of the exemplars are as fanatical about their alignment as the Yugoloths. A Slaadi would find it just as easy to disect a living being as to donate money to the poor. The thing is, the disection is far more interesting.
Witch 07-02-07, 06:00 PM	In my opinion, the LN and CN outsiders are seriously screwed up. ... okay, before everybody decides to flame me, let's see... 1) The Formians are Lawful Neutral, but act Lawful Evil (enslaving, dominating, etc.) and should be Lawful Evil. 2) The Formians are boring. Big ants ... big whoop. (These two points shouldn't be all that controversial, I think most people here agree...) The Formians don't act that lawful evil if you try and give a better explanation than the little that is in the monster manual. Let's face it - domination on itself isn't evil. The formians thrive on efficiency. Creatures that they dominate or draw into their hivemind would likely be adapted so that they would enjoy being in it - as enjoying your new job will lead to better performance, etcetera. They're not really into having people needlessly suffer, they're all about doing a job orderly and efficiently. I also disagree on them being boring. There's a lot that can be done with them - one can play up possible psionic potential, or details what happens when a hive does fall to evil (something which I've done before, and I find has a lot of potential). 3) Modrons have a cool concept, but they look stupid. Look at the 1e pictures of them ... eeeh. Then, in 2e, they decided to make them all "mechanical" and play up the geometry thing, which was kind of dumb. I agree on them being dumb. I also think they're boring. 5) The Slaadi act awfully evil for CN guys. CN can perform evil acts, but if they don't do good acts as well, they eventually become CE. What's the last Good thing a slaad did? That's bad design. Try and fix it :)
RealSorceror 07-02-07, 06:10 PM	The Formians aren't evil. As Witch hinted at, the Formians have a very alien psychology, and think very differently from humaniods. Their obsession with order and effeiciency is what drives them. Certian other concepts, such as personal freedom, just don't make sense to Formians, as they themselves do not desire such things.
Nilbog 07-02-07, 06:34 PM	I've heard these complaints before, and they are correct. What is your solution? Make up new races. I'll (time and energy permitting) be posting some on the Monsters' Lair board soon.
Rerecros 07-02-07, 06:35 PM	Creatures that they dominate or draw into their hivemind would likely be adapted so that they would enjoy being in it - as enjoying your new job will lead to better performance, etcetera. They're not really into having people needlessly suffer, they're all about doing a job orderly and efficiently. :eek: That's like my worst nightmare. WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Smiling, homogenous, efficient, barcode stamped headed kind of evil is the most terrifying sort.
Witch 07-02-07, 06:38 PM	:eek: That's like my worst nightmare. WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Smiling, homogenous, efficient, barcode stamped headed kind of evil is the most terrifying sort. The fact is that your mind (like mine) is differently inspired. The Formians would make you think differently, so that it wouldn't be a nightmare to you, but bliss. Furthermore, they don't care about war, they care about order. War is merely a means to structure the multiverse, to them. If other means are more efficient, they'll use other means. Furthermore, they don't promote ignorance: they have a hivemind, and share their information with eachother.
Rerecros 07-02-07, 06:47 PM	The fact is that your mind (like mine) is differently inspired. The Formians would make you think differently, so that it wouldn't be a nightmare to you, but bliss. Furthermore, they don't care about war, they care about order. War is merely a means to structure the multiverse, to them. If other means are more efficient, they'll use other means. Furthermore, they don't promote ignorance: they have a hivemind, and share their information with eachother. :D What are you their representative? :eek: You are aren't you! Put on your tin foil hats (+2 bonus to enchantments) people! the invasion is nigh!
Witch 07-02-07, 06:51 PM	:D What are you their representative? I'm someone who finds them more intrigueing than modrons :) After writing up an evil formian hive, I've become interested in the ordinary ones as well.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-02-07, 09:41 PM	The formians aren't exemplars of anything, much less the exemplar race for LN. They're transplants from a layer of Arcadia that slipped into Mechanus, and honestly, I don't think they're done slipping yet. Formians still in Arcadia are virtually nothing like the those in Mechanus at the moment who were seriously warped and changed by the shift in planes. By the time all is said and done, I suspect that the formians of Mechanus will either be driven into extinction at the hands of the modrons and inevitables, or they'll slide permenantly into Acheron.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 10:01 PM	In my opinion, the LN and CN outsiders are seriously screwed up. ... okay, before everybody decides to flame me, let's see... 1) The Formians are Lawful Neutral, but act Lawful Evil (enslaving, dominating, etc.) and should be Lawful Evil. Evidence? The Formians on Arcadia behave themselves fairly well. I don't see any non-Formians actually being "enslaved" by Formians -- my impression was that the layer of Arcadia that fell to Mechanus was *colonized* by Formians but wasn't being very strongly held by any LG forces beforehand, which is why the layer-slippage was possible in the first place. 2) The Formians are boring. Big ants ... big whoop. (These two points shouldn't be all that controversial, I think most people here agree...) They're sort of boring, but the idea was to have an LN race that wasn't as actively silly as the Modrons. 3) Modrons have a cool concept, but they look stupid. Look at the 1e pictures of them ... eeeh. Then, in 2e, they decided to make them all "mechanical" and play up the geometry thing, which was kind of dumb. 4) The Slaadi, despite all being exemplars of ultimate Chaos, all have the same shape. They have more in common with each other than the different forms of Devils. WHY??? (and yes, I know MotP says it's because Ssendam changed the Spawning Stone. I still think it seriously hurts Chaos.) You still have Chaos Beasts if you want a race that has no set shape, form, motivation or personality at all. Of course, that's less of a "race" and more of a, well, "formless mass of chaos". The point of Slaadi is that they're Chaotic creatures with enough *semblance* of Order so that they can make decisions and have personalities and be people. It's the same way with Modrons. 5) The Slaadi act awfully evil for CN guys. CN can perform evil acts, but if they don't do good acts as well, they eventually become CE. What's the last Good thing a slaad did? I agree that there's too much shading of CN into CE. And finally... 6) The Slaad aren't OGC, so you can't use them if you're writing up your own campaign setting to distribute on the Internet. Neither are Modrons. So?
Adrez Nesnsid 07-02-07, 10:28 PM	4) The Slaadi, despite all being exemplars of ultimate Chaos, all have the same shape. They have more in common with each other than the different forms of Devils. WHY??? (and yes, I know MotP says it's because Ssendam changed the Spawning Stone. I still think it seriously hurts Chaos.) 5) The Slaadi act awfully evil for CN guys. CN can perform evil acts, but if they don't do good acts as well, they eventually become CE. What's the last Good thing a slaad did? I'm actually working on a homebrew solution to this problem. I'm thinking of having the slaadi be gradually displaced by a race of cartoon-like creatures called "living caricatures".
ArcTan 07-02-07, 10:39 PM	If you *want* to suffer through endless hours of your unfunny D&D friend who thinks he's funny doing an impression of Robin Williams as the Genie from Aladdin, go ahead. I think I already have to deal with that kind of thing enough without a PC race or NPC monster specifically designed to encourage it.
Elessar 07-02-07, 11:43 PM	Re: Modrons I agree on them being dumb. I also think they're boring. The computer game, Planescape: Torment went a long way for making the modrons cooler both in look and concept for me. I mean, they're still goofy, but in an endearing way. Plus, having a Chaotic Neutral anomaly modron named Nordom... priceless.
Tevish Szat 07-03-07, 12:39 AM	Potential Exemplars of law and chaos LAW Modrons (Little the little polygons that didn't) Pros: Have history, culture, and an interesting place in the multiverse (See Planescape products, like the Great Modron March. Are of rigid form with absolute hierarchy and lack of individuality without seeming evil or enslaved. fit with mechanus in apearance Cons: They're basic geometric shapes, and have lost support in 3e Musing: fleshy outside in a hard candy metal shell... Would a disgrunteled (rogue to evil rather than chaos) modron be like a Dalek? Formians (Aaaaaaant peeeeeople) Pros: 3e supported and approved, hivemind seems lawful Cons: Unclear on the good/evil scale. The ones in arcadia are shifted to good, and the ones in mechanus might not be done falling. Musing: Stretched against potentially all the planes of law between baator and celestia, would they evolve divergently? Inevitables (Just think of them as a cross between Hal 9000 and Judge Dredd) Pros: 3e support, each caste represents One Pure Law, Fit in Mechanus. Cons: Constructs, effectivley. Lack of society or culture. Musing: *bzzzt* Kill! *bzzzt* Destroy! *bzzzzt* Write parking ticket! Paraii (D&D's answer to the Borg) Pros: Hivemind. Cons: Sinister, seemingly evilshifted. Don;t fit mechanus. Not converted to 3e (if you don;t count visilights) Musing: /why did i even put these on here? Gear Spirits (Modron's Little Helper) Pros: Utterly part of mechanus. Each has purpose, a role that has a place for everything and a thing for every place Cons: Usually, they come with the modrons. Not very interesting for campaigning: they just do their jobs rather quietly. Not 3e converted. Musing:Can they stand on their own, or do they really NEED modrons? do the modrons need them? The Vaati (Of Rod of Seven Parts Fame) Pros: None... yet. Cons: None, that I can tell. aside from that pesky little known and not in 3e thing. Musing: Did someone say they were Mercanes? if so that blows them out of the running. If not, have they ever been mentioned outside Rod of Seven Parts? I think that's all the contenders. Kinda crowded, for being law. you think they'd sort it out with some sort of algorithm. CHAOS Slaadi (Big frogs that eat people. or paint them blue) Pros: Classic. Established. 3e supported Cons: Single form, even across their species, because of of their leaders messed with them and the whole spawning stone thing. not very chaotic of that one, was it? Evil bent. Musing: If you take out the Spawning Stone, what woudl the slaadi become? Chaos Beasts (Lovecraftian horror: Just add water, or whatever you've got) Pros: Amphorus blob of madness Cons: Not very deep or detailed for a primary exemplar race. Musing: Is it possible for there to be variant, twisted, or even more fractured chaos beasts, or is the standard one crazy enough to cover all possible variations? And that seems to be the contenders for Chaos so far... hey! that's only two, choice A and Choice B! There's no C! what kind of chaos is this without a C!
Adrez Nesnsid 07-03-07, 12:48 AM	Potential Exemplars of law and chaos LAW Modrons (Little the little polygons that didn't) Pros: Have history, culture, and an interesting place in the multiverse (See Planescape products, like the Great Modron March. Are of rigid form with absolute hierarchy and lack of individuality without seeming evil or enslaved. fit with mechanus in apearance Cons: They're basic geometric shapes, and have lost support in 3e Musing: fleshy outside in a hard candy metal shell... Would a disgrunteled (rogue to evil rather than chaos) modron be like a Dalek? Formians (Aaaaaaant peeeeeople) Pros: 3e supported and approved, hivemind seems lawful Cons: Unclear on the good/evil scale. The ones in arcadia are shifted to good, and the ones in mechanus might not be done falling. Musing: Stretched against potentially all the planes of law between baator and celestia, would they evolve divergently? Inevitables (Just think of them as a cross between Hal 9000 and Judge Dredd) Pros: 3e support, each caste represents One Pure Law, Fit in Mechanus. Cons: Constructs, effectivley. Lack of society or culture. Musing: *bzzzt* Kill! *bzzzt* Destroy! *bzzzzt* Write parking ticket! Paraii (D&D's answer to the Borg) Pros: Hivemind. Cons: Sinister, seemingly evilshifted. Don;t fit mechanus. Not converted to 3e (if you don;t count visilights) Musing: /why did i even put these on here? Gear Spirits (Modron's Little Helper) Pros: Utterly part of mechanus. Each has purpose, a role that has a place for everything and a thing for every place Cons: Usually, they come with the modrons. Not very interesting for campaigning: they just do their jobs rather quietly. Not 3e converted. Musing:Can they stand on their own, or do they really NEED modrons? do the modrons need them? The Vaati (Of Rod of Seven Parts Fame) Pros: None... yet. Cons: None, that I can tell. aside from that pesky little known and not in 3e thing. Musing: Did someone say they were Mercanes? if so that blows them out of the running. If not, have they ever been mentioned outside Rod of Seven Parts? I think that's all the contenders. Kinda crowded, for being law. you think they'd sort it out with some sort of algorithm. You left out the Moignoes (The little 2 dimensional guys obsessed with the exact value of pi and other important irrational numbers)
Witch 07-03-07, 06:03 AM	For those who like some more information of how I think Law works very well, I'll quote Alratan from over at Dicefreaks - this is obviously not WotC canon, but it may very well be of help. Modrons We can look at this faction as being analogous to a legislature – they seek to discover and understand the laws of the cosmos. They can be best characterised as the utterly ruthless scientists beloved of popular imagination. By this I don’t mean the comical mad scientist – they should be far more threatening. E.g. If you get a modron intrigued with you, it will decide whether it will learn more by continued observation of you in the wild, under ‘controlled conditions’, or by dissecting your body and soul into their constituent energies and elements and recording their organisation and proportions. The Modron March and Great Observatory are examples of means the modrons use to gather information to derive the laws they seek from. The Modrons should directly rule a large fraction of the original Mechanus, but should have lost much territory since their heyday. Modrons reproduce by absorbing favoured petitioners into their central weel of energy where it is divided amongst all the modrons. When a significant amount of extra energy has been absorbed, a new modron is created. The Modrons embody and promote the idea that law is the urge to classify and categorise, and to understand. Formians We can see these ant-like outsiders as being like a executive – they seek to rule everything. The formians should control most of the cogs in the large proportion of Mechanus which were once Nemausus. Formians reproduce by impregnating their Queens with the essence of a petitioner which has been refined by a specialist caste after its consumption. They embody and promote the idea that law is about being part of a hierarchy, commanding some and answering to others. The Formians only believe in individuals as components of a hierarchy, and that an individual that is not part of a hierarchy is both incomplete and unhealthy. The Formians don't want to rule you (usually) they want you to be ruled by someone, and for you to rule something else. They don't really care who that someone else is. If a formian was to encounter a "free" being their instinct towards it would be the same as a benevolent human's towards an abandoned and orphaned infant, they would take it in and give it a home. The fact that the infant would scream, and resent being picked up by strangers would be irrelevant to humans, beyond them wishing to calm its cries - it would be identical for the Formians. If you were part of a hierarchy, the formians would not steal you anymore than the human above would steal someone else's child, i.e only if the parents/superiors were unfit to do their job. Vaati/Inevitables We can see this faction as being a judiciary, using the Inevitables to enforce their decisions. For added tension, we should keep it a secret that the Vaati are behind the Inevitables. The Vaati will have used the Inevitables both to hide their existence/involvement and because (also informing the first region) there are very few of them (due to the War). We can reconcile the information about the marut (5.3.1), by saying that when the Vaati first became active in the modern planes, they had very little power, so sold their expertise to the gods, constructing Inevitables to act as the servants they were lacking. They then used the profits of this endeavour to make Inevitables of their own, although they still sell some to gods, in return for petitioners souls. These Inevitables promoted the ideal of law the Vaati represent, giving the Vaati power, allowing them to take over more cogs (or vice versa). They should still have the fewest cogs, and rely on the support of most of the gods (as they are the only source of reliable servants) to make up the deficit. The reason why the Vaati haven’t used this influx of power to reproduce can be this. The Vaati reproduce in the normal humanoid manner, but each new Vaati has to be the reincarnation of an immensely powerful petitioner, and they take a long time to mature. The Vaati have come across few sufficiently powerful souls, and these only recently, as the gods were somewhat unwilling to sell the souls of their greatest mortal servants, so no new Vaati have matured. However, almost any petitioner can be used to motivate an Inevitable, as the deficit is made up with arcane power. The Vaati embody and promote the idea that law is following a set of codified laws. Although they have their own set of preferred laws, they don’t really care which set, as long as it doesn’t conflict with some basic principles (like internal consistency). Parai The Parai can be identified with the Mob of political theory, being suppressed by the combined efforts of the three factions into becoming a competitor. The Parai embody law as hegemony. The existence of the Parai demonstrates that the other three factions will work smoothly together when necessary, such as against the Parai, or an external threat. Originally posted here (http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=84&start=0), by Alratan. There's lots and lots more.
Steely_Dan 07-03-07, 06:17 AM	By the time all is said and done, I suspect that the formians of Mechanus will either be driven into extinction at the hands of the modrons and inevitables, or they'll slide permenantly into Acheron. The gods willing... I thought the 2nd edition Planescape modrons were awesome. DiTerlitzi did some great art for our little guys. When I think of Nirvana/Mechanus, I don't think of the ant-boys, I think of the modrons.
yrogerg 07-03-07, 08:03 AM	The fact is that your mind (like mine) is differently inspired. The Formians would make you think differently, so that it wouldn't be a nightmare to you, but bliss. Furthermore, they don't care about war, they care about order. War is merely a means to structure the multiverse, to them. If other means are more efficient, they'll use other means. Furthermore, they don't promote ignorance: they have a hivemind, and share their information with eachother. I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. :P
Seldriss 07-03-07, 11:29 AM	I agree somewhat with what you're saying... The Formians should be presented in a rigid and absolute hive community, leaving no place for morale, individuality or freedom, like... well, ants. Slaads themselves shouldn't be pictured as evil as they often are, they are not demons. They should be the incarnation of chaos and madness. Modrons ? I love them, especially due to Master DiTerlizzi's incredible talent, and the recent article in Dragon Magazine. (what are we doing to do without Dragon ?) :weep:
Witch 07-03-07, 12:34 PM	Slaads themselves shouldn't be pictured as evil as they often are, they are not demons. They should be the incarnation of chaos and madness. Just chaos, thank you. I don't need madness in all my slaad - though I don't mind it in a few.
Seldriss 07-03-07, 01:09 PM	Just chaos, thank you. I don't need madness in all my slaad - though I don't mind it in a few. All right, then some Light Slaadi for Witch, with just pure chaos, conservative-free, low-sodium, and just a hint of madness, for the flavor...
Witch 07-03-07, 02:45 PM	:) I'm merely trying to disconnect the concept of madness from that of chaos. People confuse the two too often, which has lead people to thinking that Chaotic Neutral is a mental disease instead of an alignment *winks at WarDragon*.
Wyvern76 07-03-07, 05:52 PM	In the past, several people (or maybe it was one person several times) have suggested the Fey as exemplars of chaos. I like the idea, but I don't like the idea of Faerie replacing Limbo among the Outer Planes; it should be more closely tied to the Material Plane and/or the Etheral IMO. I do think slaad would be right at home in Pandemonium, though. Wyvern
Witch 07-03-07, 06:08 PM	Aren't fey the exemplars of nature, which is solidly Neutral rather than Chaotic Neutral?
Rerecros 07-03-07, 06:23 PM	Fey don't exemplify nature, and most tend to be chaotic in alignment.
Witch 07-03-07, 06:35 PM	A quick search through the SRD got me this: Dryad Chaotic Good Nymph Chaotic Good Satyr Chaotic Neutral Sprite, Grig Neutral Good Sprite, Nixie Neutral Sprite, Pixie Neutral Good If I look further, to the MM2: Jermlaine Neutral Evil Ocean Strider Chaotic Neutral Sirine Chaotic Neutral Spirit of the Land Neutral Honestly, I don't see the particular presence of chaos, there.
Phantom Llama 07-03-07, 06:46 PM	Fey are a mess and aren't associated with anything properly right now. Some people think they're natural, some not. Some people think they're chaotic, some not. They don't have a consistent presentation.
PunkRockBard 07-03-07, 07:53 PM	Fey are a mess and aren't associated with anything properly right now. Some people think they're natural, some not. Some people think they're chaotic, some not. They don't have a consistent presentation. i view the fey as beings with connections to nature as well as elements of the arcane. Their alignment...while usually not lawful...can vary...just like it can with Undead, Abberations, and other creature categorizations. As for which lawful beings should be "the one", i think each one has their own place. Modrons, Formians, and Inevitables all demonstrate a different aspect of LN. That being said, Modrons are the exemplars people. Don'tchufergetit!!!!
Red Dragon 07-04-07, 06:13 PM	Fey are both chaotic and natural, and act as the world's white blood cells, basically, plus have their own society, at least IMC. The slaad and modrons are indeed presented as evil-lite, but that's mostly through laziness and lack of information. Just mess with the details to make it fit, it's less work than you'd think.
Kelmourne 07-04-07, 06:44 PM	Honestly, I don't see the particular presence of chaos, there. Dont get me wrong, I dont think fey should represent chaos, but there is a distinct trend of chaos there. they are all either neutral or chaotic on the chaos-law axis.
Red Dragon 07-04-07, 06:53 PM	There are lawful fey, however (All obscure at the least, others badly written). There's a huge trend towards chaos, but some people ignore that and make lawful fey anyway. (And thus these monsters in turn get jacked back to Neutral IMG)
Adrez Nesnsid 10-09-07, 08:04 PM	:bump:
ArcTan 10-09-07, 10:19 PM	In my opinion, the LN and CN outsiders are seriously screwed up. ... okay, before everybody decides to flame me, let's see... 1) The Formians are Lawful Neutral, but act Lawful Evil (enslaving, dominating, etc.) and should be Lawful Evil. *shrug* The Formians in Arcadia are specifically played up as being good neighbors to everyone else. The thing about Formians is that even though they constantly expand their territory, they specifically expand it into areas that are *not already being used* -- big underground expanses of stone and dirt that they dig their tunnels into. They represent the Enlightenment ideal of "civilizing the wild places of the earth, and making them useful" *purified* of the corrupted concept of turning colonization into imperialism (by finding places other people are already living in and taking them away to make them useful). 2) The Formians are boring. Big ants ... big whoop. Enh, well, it's a metaphor. (These two points shouldn't be all that controversial, I think most people here agree...) 3) Modrons have a cool concept, but they look stupid. Look at the 1e pictures of them ... eeeh. Then, in 2e, they decided to make them all "mechanical" and play up the geometry thing, which was kind of dumb. 4) The Slaadi, despite all being exemplars of ultimate Chaos, all have the same shape. They have more in common with each other than the different forms of Devils. WHY??? (and yes, I know MotP says it's because Ssendam changed the Spawning Stone. I still think it seriously hurts Chaos.) They could have just as much variety as Demons and Devils if people cared as much about "neutral guy" races as "bad guy" races or even "good guy" races. But the neutrals get the short end of the stick, which is to be expected. They're neutral. Bleah. They ended up making the Slaadi interesting by making them *not* neutral but, in fact, Evil, without calling them that. Also, "Ssendam" is the dumbest name ever. It's worse than the Nilbogs. 5) The Slaadi act awfully evil for CN guys. CN can perform evil acts, but if they don't do good acts as well, they eventually become CE. What's the last Good thing a slaad did? And finally... 6) The Slaad aren't OGC, so you can't use them if you're writing up your own campaign setting to distribute on the Internet. That's on purpose, but a miscalculation. People might actually care enough about the Mind Flayer or Beholder to buy the real MM because of it -- I don't see that many fans for the Slaadi.
ArcTan 10-09-07, 10:20 PM	Slaads themselves shouldn't be pictured as evil as they often are, they are not demons. They should be the incarnation of chaos and madness. "Madness" is generally a bad thing. And not necessarily "Chaotic". (It was a good decision, in my view, to make the Plane of Madness in Eberron Neutral Evil.)
yrogerg 10-09-07, 10:57 PM	:bump: Why would you bump a thread from 3 months ago? THE CONVERSATION IS DEAD. LET IT REST IN PEACE. I mean, seriously. It's one thing to add something to an old conversation, but it's another thing entirely to *just* bump the thread.
setekh 10-10-07, 06:02 AM	The one thing people always seem to forget about chaos is that there is emergence. Take the Demons for example, mad, chaotic, evil monsters. And yet, they have an order, it is the rule of the strong, but that is order none the less. You leave a chaotic system long enough, and an inherent order will emerge, it might not be obvious to an outsider but it is there. In the real world an example would be London. I am an extreme agoraphobic, but in London I feel safe, because I instinctively know where everyone is going, I know what they will do and what they intend, and so I feel no worries while I dart and weave between people.
Thanael 10-10-07, 06:40 AM	All right, then some Light Slaadi for Witch, with just pure chaos, conservative-free, low-sodium, and just a hint of madness, for the flavor... Hehe... this reminds me of the infamous 15 foot black salad from limbo, and of course Conversion Deathmatch (http://p208.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm17.showMessageRange? topicID=115.topic&start=21&stop=40).
locustechpriest 10-10-07, 08:01 PM	I agree that the Formians are purely lawful. I also have seen nations of pure law who have exceptionless capital punishment... for every crime. I don't believe there is sufficient reason to consider either as evil. Similarly, I don't think the formians are boring at all. Societies of formians can be complex and interesting. Sure you don't have drow-like assassinations and intrigue, but you do have uprisings of disgruntled "children". Society asside, there are always the cool tunnel layouts and compartmentalization.
Corrin 10-10-07, 08:17 PM	Ah, Modrons - such a cool concept, such poor execution in general. The art is solid, the basic concept (robots) is cool (see warforged, inevitables), but they have been cursed with a race design of "uninteresting". If they did move around and collect and profile things more, or have some purpose that didn't involve them defending their homeland, they would be much more interesting. In fact, that pretty much applies to any of the alignment-based planar races aside from devils and demons - those two have solid, well-designed reasons to be sticking their claws into the material and the rest of the planes (and it doesn't hurt to have all the real world mythology to base them on). Everyone else? Mostly busy sitting around being what they are (slaad, modrons) or reacting to the demons and devils (archons, eladrins, guardinals, rilmani), which, to be honest, is the PC's job. That's one of the reasons why the githzerai and the inevitables see much more play-time in most games, because they have good solid reason to be poking their heads in, getting in the way of the PC's goals.