Gaining alignment subtypes--specifically, Outsider(Evil) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gaining alignment subtypes--specifically, Outsider(Evil) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Andyr
03-24-07, 02:59 PM Tieflings have the Outsider(Native) type; although they may be predisposed towards Evil alignments, they do not have the (Evil) subtype of their forebears. My question is, is there a game-mechanical method by which a tiefling could gain the (Evil) subtype (or, by extension, any native Outsider could gain an alignment or energy subtype)?

The reason I'm asking is for the purposes of qualifing for the Fiend of X PrCs from Fiend Folio. Thematically I think these could fit well for tieflings, but they don't meet the prerequisite of being an Outsider(Evil). Although I could happily houserule it away, I'd be interested to learn of any methods to gain the appropriate alignment subtype within the rules.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-24-07, 05:14 PM There are methods (rituals) in Savage Species, however thematically speaking they stink beyond reason. I tend to view them as mechanical loopholes and little more.

That said, I personally wouldn't allow a native outsider to access (most) things that require a full blown fiend, because it's less the mechanical 'does it have X subtype' that matters to me, and more the possession of body/soul duality on the part of the native outsider, and the fact that while tieflings might be thinly fiend-blooded, they're still mortal, and they're not living extensions of their alignment/lower plane.

However I could see situations where an archfiend or similar being might allow a tiefling to transcend their mortality in a way that would then allow them access to one of the fiend-only PrCs. But the process would make them no longer a tiefling or native outsider, but a true fiend, and there would have to be changes to the character accordingly.

But just my opinion.
Andyr
03-24-07, 05:31 PM However I could see situations where an archfiend or similar being might allow a tiefling to transcend their mortality in a way that would then allow them access to one of the fiend-only PrCs. But the process would make them no longer a tiefling or native outsider, but a true fiend, and there would have to be changes to the character accordingly.

Yeah, this was the sort of thing I was thinking of--I don't think the tiefling --> half-fiend progression class is quite what I want. I suppose it's a pity none of the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs offer a fiendish apotheosis like that at the end (unless I'm misremembering; BoVD isn't to hand).

Out of interest, what is it you don't think wouldn't fit for a tiefling to take the Fiend of X PrCs? I can see problems with Fiend of Possession because of the body/soul duality, but with the blessing of a higher power I don't see why a tiefling couldn't be a Fiend of Blasphemy/Corruption. But then again, I suppose that's what the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs are for... Ah well.
Elzaban the Ethereal
03-24-07, 06:49 PM Divine Emissary (I think it is) in the Forgotten Realm's main book (PGtF in 3.5) makes you an Outsider with subtypes according to their god's religion at level 5. Can't remember if you can get into it at level 4 or level 6, though.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-24-07, 07:00 PM Out of interest, what is it you don't think wouldn't fit for a tiefling to take the Fiend of X PrCs? I can see problems with Fiend of Possession because of the body/soul duality, but with the blessing of a higher power I don't see why a tiefling couldn't be a Fiend of Blasphemy/Corruption. But then again, I suppose that's what the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs are for... Ah well.

It's the fact that they aren't actual fiends. I just don't see native outsiders as being capable of the intrinsic level of connection to evil that the fiends are by definition, which is what those particular PrCs are geared towards.

Edit: Though I could potentially be talked into allowing a tiefling to be capable of taking levels of fiend of Corruption if they weren't so much manifesting the powers themselves, but serving as a conduit for the power of a fiendish patron. The downside would be them losing access to the PrC's abilities if their patron deemed them unworthy (unless they managed to acquire a new patron).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andyr 03-24-07, 02:59 PM	Tieflings have the Outsider(Native) type; although they may be predisposed towards Evil alignments, they do not have the (Evil) subtype of their forebears. My question is, is there a game-mechanical method by which a tiefling could gain the (Evil) subtype (or, by extension, any native Outsider could gain an alignment or energy subtype)? The reason I'm asking is for the purposes of qualifing for the Fiend of X PrCs from Fiend Folio. Thematically I think these could fit well for tieflings, but they don't meet the prerequisite of being an Outsider(Evil). Although I could happily houserule it away, I'd be interested to learn of any methods to gain the appropriate alignment subtype within the rules.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-24-07, 05:14 PM	There are methods (rituals) in Savage Species, however thematically speaking they stink beyond reason. I tend to view them as mechanical loopholes and little more. That said, I personally wouldn't allow a native outsider to access (most) things that require a full blown fiend, because it's less the mechanical 'does it have X subtype' that matters to me, and more the possession of body/soul duality on the part of the native outsider, and the fact that while tieflings might be thinly fiend-blooded, they're still mortal, and they're not living extensions of their alignment/lower plane. However I could see situations where an archfiend or similar being might allow a tiefling to transcend their mortality in a way that would then allow them access to one of the fiend-only PrCs. But the process would make them no longer a tiefling or native outsider, but a true fiend, and there would have to be changes to the character accordingly. But just my opinion.
Andyr 03-24-07, 05:31 PM	However I could see situations where an archfiend or similar being might allow a tiefling to transcend their mortality in a way that would then allow them access to one of the fiend-only PrCs. But the process would make them no longer a tiefling or native outsider, but a true fiend, and there would have to be changes to the character accordingly. Yeah, this was the sort of thing I was thinking of--I don't think the tiefling --> half-fiend progression class is quite what I want. I suppose it's a pity none of the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs offer a fiendish apotheosis like that at the end (unless I'm misremembering; BoVD isn't to hand). Out of interest, what is it you don't think wouldn't fit for a tiefling to take the Fiend of X PrCs? I can see problems with Fiend of Possession because of the body/soul duality, but with the blessing of a higher power I don't see why a tiefling couldn't be a Fiend of Blasphemy/Corruption. But then again, I suppose that's what the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs are for... Ah well.
Elzaban the Ethereal 03-24-07, 06:49 PM	Divine Emissary (I think it is) in the Forgotten Realm's main book (PGtF in 3.5) makes you an Outsider with subtypes according to their god's religion at level 5. Can't remember if you can get into it at level 4 or level 6, though.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-24-07, 07:00 PM	Out of interest, what is it you don't think wouldn't fit for a tiefling to take the Fiend of X PrCs? I can see problems with Fiend of Possession because of the body/soul duality, but with the blessing of a higher power I don't see why a tiefling couldn't be a Fiend of Blasphemy/Corruption. But then again, I suppose that's what the Disciple/Thrall of X PrCs are for... Ah well. It's the fact that they aren't actual fiends. I just don't see native outsiders as being capable of the intrinsic level of connection to evil that the fiends are by definition, which is what those particular PrCs are geared towards. Edit: Though I could potentially be talked into allowing a tiefling to be capable of taking levels of fiend of Corruption if they weren't so much manifesting the powers themselves, but serving as a conduit for the power of a fiendish patron. The downside would be them losing access to the PrC's abilities if their patron deemed them unworthy (unless they managed to acquire a new patron).