Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonLich 07-07-07, 07:29 PM	Does anyone know anything about the General of Gehenna? I see him mentioned in the Manual of the Planes yet it is left at "an ultoloth whose power is said to approach that of a demideity." And even that seems only hinted at. Has anyone stated him or know anyhting more about him. Thanks!
Shemeska the Marauder 07-07-07, 07:57 PM	The General of Gehenna was the first yugoloth to achieve ultroloth status. He's the closest their race has to a single ruler, yet many of his race aren't absolutely certain that he actually exists, and isn't just a figment of the Oinoloth, or a bit of racial mythology that the other ultroloths created to solidify their power. Unfortunately for the rest of the planes, the General is very much real. He's something of a favored child of the baernaloths, and at their direction he was responsible for the creation of the first obyriths and ancient baatorians, which puts him solidly among the eldest beings on the planes, and far more ancient than any gods. Frighteningly old, and patient enough to allow millennia to pass in order to twist the planes to whatever plan he seeks to enact. That said, it's likely up for debate how much he's the recipient of the wisdom of the Demented (the baern who "advise" the most powerful 'loths), and how much he's their puppet. 3e has said virtually nothing on him, outside of a mention in the MotP and Dungeon magazine. The current edition did invent the Crawling City though, which was a pretty cool idea. The other material comes from 2e, mostly from 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' and 'Hellbound: The Blood War'.
sciborg2 07-07-07, 09:31 PM	Shemmy pretty much covered it. I'd just note that in 2e Planescape the General, under the direction of the baern, separated the Order and Chaos out of the loths to create the tanar'ri and the baatezu. In 3e, the General is more real and perhaps more powerful, but the 'loth creation myth is one out of many theories. If anything, I'd go with the theory that the gehreleths once ruled a fiendish empire spanning the lower planes, but that's me. ;) As for anything being older than the gods, this has always seemed dependent on particular authors. In my mind, certain gods predate or at least existed simultaneously with the vaunted archfiends.
Lobsopdoy 07-07-07, 10:42 PM	That said, it's likely up for debate how much he's the recipient of the wisdom of the Demented (the baern who "advise" the most powerful 'loths), and how much he's their puppet. I don't think there would be a difference
DragonLich 07-09-07, 03:47 PM	He's something of a favored child of the baernaloths, and at their direction he was responsible for the creation of the first obyriths and ancient baatorians, which puts him solidly among the eldest beings on the planes, and far more ancient than any gods. I can see how he would be the ideal favored child of the baernaloths but why would he have a part in the creation of the obyriths and baatorians? Does he actually have that much of a hand in both of those places that he could be their "father?" Thanks for the information it helps, even if it asks more questions then it answers! But that's the idea...always expect the unexpected.
Bob the Efreet 07-09-07, 04:34 PM	I can see how he would be the ideal favored child of the baernaloths but why would he have a part in the creation of the obyriths and baatorians? They are the impure chaff that was cast away from the yugoloths by the General. In his wisdom and might he forged the Heart of Darkness to purify us all. ...at least, that's what the last arcanaloth I asked said about it.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-09-07, 04:36 PM	I can see how he would be the ideal favored child of the baernaloths but why would he have a part in the creation of the obyriths and baatorians? According to yugoloth myth (the versions that have leaked, or have been leaked to non-yugoloths) claim that the General of Gehenna purged the early 'loths of the growing taint of Law and Chaos, once those forces began to touch upon the Evil of the primordial Waste. The side-effect of that purge was the creation of the first tanar'ri and first baatezu. That said, either the 'loths believe a false myth, of they're twisting an original truth to better fit the political environment of the current lower planes, since the truth of the matter is that the tanar'ri and baatezu post-date that time considerably, and the 'loth purge would have led to the creation of the first obyriths and first ancient baatezu. But as those two races have comparatively little and virtually no power respectively in the lower planes currently, seems common sense that the 'loths would spread a corrupt version (and maybe the lesser yugoloth castes believe it and are being deceived by their leaders who know the truth). However it's still an open question I think regarding if the General of Gehenna created the first obyriths and ancient baatorians intentionally, or if they were an unintended side effect. It might have been unintentional on his part, but very intentional on the part of the baern who were aiding him and directing him. We don't know the specifics, and it's probably best if we didn't, because it leaves open a lot of very different interpretations of the events, and how much control the 'loths might have over their children (or if lacking any, how much they've been deceived by their own makers into believing they might have).
420 07-09-07, 07:15 PM	How does the Oinodaemon (Anthraxus the Decayed) fit into this history. He is described in the AD&D Monster Manual II (pg. 30). There is but a single daemon master and lord of the Middle Planes. The Oinoloth (Mydianchlarus) appears in 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes (pg. 109, 110) but it is unclear what relation he has, if any, to the General of Gehenna and the rest of the Yugoloth race. -420
ripvanwormer 07-09-07, 07:55 PM	The Oinoloth is the master of Khin-Oin, which is a tower, many miles high, built from a dead god's spine on the site of the original creation of the yugoloth race. It is one of the three (one in production) towers of the yugoloths, where most new mezzoloths are spawned to this day. The Oinoloth is something of the planar ruler of Oinos, roughly equivalent to one of the Lords of the Nine. The role is much in demand, and many ultroloths contend over it. Anthraxus was the Oinoloth for a long time (but not the first one by any means; he was created from an ultroloth by a cabal of night hags seeking a champion against the Order of the Planes-Militant), but was very recently deposed by Mydianchlarus, who whispered a secret in his ear so disturbing that he was compelled to leave his throne in search of new answers. Anthraxus wanders the Lower Planes today, offering his services to various vile gods. Long ago, the General, the first ultroloth and presumedly the first Oinoloth as well, led the greater number of its race to Gehenna for reasons unknown, setting up a new fortress for itself in the Crawling City. There it leads the race from the shadows, unknown to most mortals. It theoretically is the superior of the Oinoloth, but in practicality the race is not orderly enough for there to be a rigid chain of command. The Oinoloth commands the hosts of Hades, while the General of Gehenna is the puppetmaster behind the Blood War. One reoccurring theme among the 'loths is secrets and hidden plots, puppets and puppeteers. The General of Gehenna is one of these, the secret power behind the "single daemon master" most mortals are aware of. And of course the puppetmaster is itself a puppet of even older powers.
Micheal_Roele 07-10-07, 04:21 PM	Its kind of vague how involved the Yugoloths were with the creation of other fiends in 3rd edition. Unless they make an FC III to clear up or confuse us more, its up to each DM to come up with their own take. In a way, I guess it is good they leave it vague. I have a theory I use in my game, based on the material from FC I, FC II, and Planescape. My theory the General of Gehenna used the Heart of Darkness to expel the Chaos and Law into the Larvae, the Obyriths of the Abyss, and much later Asmodeus and his warband of Fallen Angels used these Larvae to create the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu. I don't get the sense that the obyriths are predated by anything. Maybe they were once beings of pure chaos, that fell to evil, like the Queen of Chaos was implied to be in Rod of Seven Parts. Maybe they are from the Far Realm. The General of Gehenna's act with the Heart of Darkness paved the way for the obyriths to create the Tanar'ri. The obyriths and the Abyss might used his outcast Chaotic larvae to form the first Tanar'ri. The same Tanar'ri who would overthrow the obyriths, ironically at the same time the obyriths are under assault by the Eldarins. If that isn't a Yugoloth scheme, I don't know what is...:) Once the Tanar'ri are created, the next group created are the Baatezu. Perhaps the Lawful Outcast Larvae became the first Baatorians. Asmodeus and his Angel Warband's sole function given to them by the deities of Law was to fight Demonkind, but they became corrupted over time and fell to evil. Asmodeus learns about the Baatorians and Baator, and knowing what he knew about souls, he arranged to be kicked out of the Heavens to set up shop in the Nine Hells after they signed the Pact Primevel. His Fallen Angels, Ancient Baatorians, and reshaped petitioners (Baatezu) are merged into one race, the Devils. The Yugoloths now have a Lawful Evil Tyrant in Asmodeus, that already has been fighting against the hated Demons, create one race, the Devils. They helped the incomprehsible obryiths create the Tanar'ri, who in turned doomed them. From this, you get the Blood War, in which the Yugoloths perpetually benefit, as one the main commodities are troops and souls. One of the FC II writeups they put under Asmodeus was his desire to turn the Law vs. Chaos conflict onto the Good vs. Evil axis. He wants to broker a truce long enough with the Tanar'ri to attack the Upper Planesto get his revenge on the Gods who he once served. Then to the victor goes the spoils. I believe I read something on Graz'zt once who had a similar lofty goal. Is it some plot to unify evil? Perhaps the Blood War was just an effort by the Yugoloths to weed out the weak for the day when Evil takes on Good. Perhaps this was the Baernorloths scheme all along, that eventually the Law vs. Chaos axis would be overcome by sheer Evil.
sciborg2 07-10-07, 09:17 PM	One of the FC II writeups they put under Asmodeus was his desire to turn the Law vs. Chaos conflict onto the Good vs. Evil axis. He wants to broker a truce long enough with the Tanar'ri to attack the Upper Planesto get his revenge on the Gods who he once served. Then to the victor goes the spoils. I believe I read something on Graz'zt once who had a similar lofty goal. FC II is basically a completely different take on the origins of the primordial exemplars, one in which the gods play a grander role. As a whole, its more inline with Guide to Hell. DMs are free to choose which one is canon for them, ignoring or meshing the varied sources across editions. 3.5e, as far as I've read, is far too fractured to really support any one side. Yes, I do love dead horse pate...
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 08:53 AM	FC II is basically a completely different take on the origins of the primordial exemplars, one in which the gods play a grander role. As a whole, its more inline with Guide to Hell. DMs are free to choose which one is canon for them, ignoring or meshing the varied sources across editions. 3.5e, as far as I've read, is far too fractured to really support any one side. Yes, I do love dead horse pate... I agree. Unless a FC III or another book comes out tying things up, one could come up with anything plausible for a creation myth.
sciborg2 07-11-07, 12:04 PM	I think we're at the point where there are too many camps to satisfy. If FC III came out, I don't know how well it would be received by the general community. I had an interesting thought: What if the General did not purge himself of Order and Chaos when he purged everyone else? What if he kept this secret from the baernoloths? Why would he ever do such a thing?
DragonLich 07-11-07, 12:16 PM	Wow that's deep. What do you think he left in himself? The Law or the Chaos? Thus I have another question. If the yugoloth's are the quote unquote puppet master's for the side of good then are the Gaurdinal's the same for the side of good? Do they have a champion like the General is for Evil? If the Blood War were to stop would it be a help or not for the yugoloths? They profit from it but would they rather see it put aside (what's a few hundred millennia to them) and the war of Good and Evil taken care of first?
420 07-11-07, 12:44 PM	Thus I have another question. If the yugoloth's are the quote unquote puppet master's for the side of good then are the Gaurdinal's the same for the side of good? Do they have a champion like the General is for Evil? Uh, why didn't you just use ""? Anyway, the puppet masters on the side of good are so insidious, secretive and enigmatic that no one even knows for sure if they exist. I mean, it's one thing to protect your supremely evil origins by disseminating many false origin stories it's a whole other thing to be powerful and paranoid enough that no one even knows you're there pulling the strings. If the Blood War were to stop would it be a help or not for the yugoloths? They profit from it but would they rather see it put aside (what's a few hundred millennia to them) and the war of Good and Evil taken care of first? The puppet masters on the side of good started and maintain the Blood War for this very reason. If evil is always fighting itself it will never have the time or resources to focus their aggression on the Upper Planes. At least that's what an angel told me once... -420
DragonLich 07-11-07, 12:52 PM	Uh, why didn't you just use ""? The shift key is so far away... Thanks though...Hidden good people...usually good doesn't have to have a face...but now it does. The plot thickens! I'm glad you converse with the angels...better then fiends;)
Micheal_Roele 07-11-07, 01:30 PM	I think we're at the point where there are too many camps to satisfy. If FC III came out, I don't know how well it would be received by the general community. I had an interesting thought: What if the General did not purge himself of Order and Chaos when he purged everyone else? What if he kept this secret from the baernoloths? Why would he ever do such a thing? Why not. Its not like the Yugoloths are a truthful and trustworthy bunch. Perhaps the General of Gehenna never did purge himself and made it all up to inflate his importance. Who knows?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-11-07, 02:18 PM	I had an interesting thought: What if the General did not purge himself of Order and Chaos when he purged everyone else? What if he kept this secret from the baernoloths? Why would he ever do such a thing? And what ever happened to those 'loths who rejected the General's purge and then vanished into the depths of the Waste? One has to wonder where they went. And funny that the baernaloths engineered their children to be purged of Law and Chaos while the Demented embrance a hideous balance of both, reconciling all extremes within a greater whole. Deeper and deeper.
DragonLich 07-11-07, 07:25 PM	Wait who are the Demented? and what was the "greater whole?" It is gettting deeper. Maybe...could it be that they are the puppet masters of the 'loths right beside their "neutral" Lord the General?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-11-07, 07:42 PM	Wait who are the Demented? and what was the "greater whole?" The Demented are a group of mad baernaloths who serve as "advisors" to the most powerful yugoloths. The greater whole I referred to was just their particular trait of embracing the extremes of LE and CE and combining them into a paradoxical version of NE.
DragonLich 07-11-07, 07:58 PM	So maybe they themselves have not been purged and advise the General in the "art" of embracing the extremes for a "higher" NE.
PunkRockBard 07-13-07, 02:20 AM	How does the Oinodaemon (Anthraxus the Decayed) fit into this history. He is described in the AD&D Monster Manual II (pg. 30). The Oinoloth (Mydianchlarus) appears in 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes (pg. 109, 110) but it is unclear what relation he has, if any, to the General of Gehenna and the rest of the Yugoloth race. -420 In first edition...the Oinoloth was considered the ultimate ruler of the Yugoloths..he was known as the ruler of the lower middle planes (Hades, Gehenna, Carceri). Anthraxus filled this role. Other unique yugoloth (daemon at the time) lords with similiar diseased names fought for his throne. Charon was another lord. In 1e Manual of the Planes...the yugoloths were described in all three of the middle lower planes..with Hades being the emphasis. 2nd edition came. In a Monstrous Supplement...Yugoloths were described as being in any lower plane...with Hades, Gehenna, Carceri, and Archeron emphasized. The Tower Arcane and the General of Gehenna were introduced here. Planescape was next! It gave the Yugoloths some greatflavor. The secretive, mercenary, subtle natures of the 'loths were fleshed out. However, other changes were made. The General of Gehenna was now the top dog ruler (not counting the whole Baerneloth aspect). Most of the Yugoloths were now on Gehenna. The Oinoloth was in control of the stragglers in Hades. Anthraxus left the throne. A third tower in Carceri was discussed. While i love Planescape and their portrayal of the Yugoloths, some of the changes i did not personally like. The General of Gehenna just seems a bit too militaristic and lawful to be the ultimate neutral evil ruler. A wasted figure who spreads disease (literally and esoterically) fit me better. i also prefer the Yugoloths spread out between the three planes. It diversifies their terrain on par with demons and devils. 3e doesn't do a whole lot with the 'loths..besides occasionally presenting them wrong. The Crawling City was a great add. 3E has them mostly on Gehenna also. The whole Challenge Rating controversy is a Pandora's Box i won't open. My point is this....there isn't info. on the loths like there are the other fiends...no monthly "yugolothicon" articles...no FC III....the only plus to this is that You are free to interpret the loths Your own way. For some people..the yugoloths are still on Gehenna and Hades equally...for others just one or the other....many accept the General as the ruler...others hang on to Anthraxus and still call them Daemons! For me....the three lower middle planes (Hades, Gehenna, Carceri) are three separate kingdoms, each with its own culture and interpretation of NE. A bit of a cold war goes on between them. Find an interpretation that works for You and go with it.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 07-13-07, 11:23 AM	he was statted by Kain Darkwind at Dicefreaks which can be found herehttp://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=151
DragonLich 07-14-07, 02:52 PM	Are there any stats for the baernaloths? Do we know anything about them?
Shemeska the Marauder 07-14-07, 03:01 PM	Are there any stats for the baernaloths? Do we know anything about them? They don't have any 3.x stats. And they've only been mentioned in 3.x in FC:I, one Dragon magazine article by Eric L Boyd, and another Dragon article by me. I'd love to see this expand obviously. As for pre-3e stats and information, yes. They had stats in 'Planes of Conflict' and 'Hellbound: The Blood War', but they didn't reflect either the fluff about the first fiends, or even what they were capable of doing in the Hellbound module itself. You might reconcile those stats as reflecting baern who have literally succumbed to the despair of their own plane and had their godlike power leached away over the eons. The fluff on them comes from 'Planes of Conflict', 'Hellbound: The Blood War', 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends', and a very brief detail in 'Tales of the Infinite Staircase'. Image from Planes of Conflict: http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baernaloth1
Yakman 07-19-07, 04:19 PM	imho, he's a rilmani, tasked with keeping the yugoloths from siding with one side or the other in the Blood War, and from keeping that war from ending.