Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Praedoran 03-23-07, 12:19 PM	Personally, I just find that equating Deities on a similar scale to a 20 Level Progression PC to be appalling. Here's what I'm doing for the Demigods of my campaign, and any tips on fleshing this out will be greatly appreciated: The Abstract: To create the characters, I gave out 80 character levels (no epic), quartered their HP, BAB, Saves, etc. They are geared out similarly to a twentieth level character, the mass of levels is to simply personify their godly abilities. Vs. The Mortals: Using a mass combat system with a base of 100 human fighters equals a CR 1 encounter, this allows me to provide suitable challenges to the Demigods. The level of the commanding officer, his cadre, and the base number of troops are abstracted for very large armies. 2000 Human Fighters are probably led by a Level 20, with a host of L16 High Ranks, L12 Lower Ranks, L6 Sergeants, and 1900+ Level 1 Human Fighters. Making Things Feel Godlike: This part is where you players realize how powerful they really are. Factor things on the x100 Level. Basically, a Demigod does 10 times more damage over an area 10 times greater. Or 1x100. Or 100x1. They move 10x Faster, they mitigate 10x as much damage. For example: "I cast Fireball on the infidels." "With a wave of your hand, a flaming sphere descends from the sky and explodes with enough force to raze an entire village to ash." "Next, Lightning Bolt." "As the arcs of electricity streak across the battlefield, the sands beneath it become glass, the light sears the vision of many, and smoldering skeletons are left in it's aftermath." This is basically a level beyond the ken of Mortal beings and even something as great as a level 50 Epic character would be brought down within a few rounds. In my campaign, the only way for a mortal being to obtain anything close to this is through special status types they must earn: Hero and Legend. Oh, and Deities have no way of physical manifesting themselves, basically Demigods are heralds of Divine Power granted to them due to their "Sync". But in D&D definitions, they would be gods.
Jarred Garrison 03-24-07, 08:30 AM	Why not simply go by DM prerogative, and say: "the god waves his hand and reduces you infidels to ashes"? If youīre gonna give the gods stats that make them so much more powerful than anything the PCīs can come up with, whatīs the point of giving them stats? Thatīs how I see things, at least. If you want something unkillable, the best thing you can do is not give it stats. That said... I still think that giving deities stats is fairly stupid, but thatīs a pet peeve (and by no means I am saying that what youīre doing is stupid :), Iīm talking about the "godīs stats" in deities and demigods and so on)...
Praedoran 03-26-07, 08:37 AM	I'm sorry, maybe my post was a bit convoluted, but the PCs -are- the Demigods. They need stats for when they fight other divine beings. At the end of my post, I also proposed ways for their Mortal PCs to also attain such a level of power. But no, I've not given any Deities stats. I've only given the Demigods, who act as emissaries of the Divine, stats. Demigods can be killed, True Deities cannot.
Khael 03-26-07, 09:58 AM	I'm sorry, maybe my post was a bit convoluted, but the PCs -are- the Demigods. They need stats for when they fight other divine beings. At the end of my post, I also proposed ways for their Mortal PCs to also attain such a level of power. But no, I've not given any Deities stats. I've only given the Demigods, who act as emissaries of the Divine, stats. Demigods can be killed, True Deities cannot. Looking at this, its going to get boring to play fast, either because things are too out of hand, or too weak to lose to. Those 2000 soldiers will win unless magic is used etc. And if the demigods have firestorm... they probably can't lose to mortals. period. Unless its a serious huge army (hundreds of thousands) in which case... everyone firestorm? or storm of vengence? horrid wilting? The only thing that sounds interesting would be the vs other demigod combats, because they won't be one sided in one direction. But to get the right feeling, those will be fairly rare, but this in its itself throws things out i.e. if the demigods are fairly rare, how come four of them come together. And as I understand it... that level 50 should win, if he's an epic caster.
Praedoran 03-26-07, 11:41 AM	Mass Combat pretty much abstracts to PC Combat, this is how the CRs still work. You can still have a Wizard army who can trouble the Demigods through a hail storm of Magic Missiles or they channel their spells via circle magic into massive fire ball spells. Epic also does not exist in my game. The levels given to them are capped at 20 per class. It's a bit like the Gestalt system, only instead the best class stat, you average them together. I just don't like the Epic Rules whatsoever to ever include them in my games. The Combat system provides the players with both a challenge and a means to which express their power upon the world. Rarity is never a question in my campaign because there are perhaps 20+ Greater Deities and an even greater number of Intermediate and Lesser Deities. The players also need ways to battle the other Demigods when in their mortal campaigns. It's a War heavy campaign and takes place from the Micro to the Macro in terms of scope. It's very similar to a movie or play script where you have both a main plot with several subplots.
Khael 03-26-07, 12:03 PM	What I mean is, that fight will either be long-winded and boring or a pushover, the tactics you described are countered by a few things: shield, the fact the demigods will have saves thoguh the roof in comparison, and by evasion likely take no damage, but also have fire resistance by spell. The only real factor seems to be 'can I trickshot those thousand wizard with one fireball?' and 'did any of us actually bother to take fighter levels for something that isn't fort and hp?'. If the latter thars when it gets long winded, since a warrior demigod would want to fight, but the system says druidic, cleric, and arcane magic is the only way to do this. It does sound like a movie in one respect - the players will make a difference and the war will hinge on them and theirs, not troops. The apparent presence of so many demigods will make that definite since the others will plough though the PC armies like the PCs though enemies, unless i'm missing some important limit on magic you gave the demigods. I'm assuming i haven't and druid/clerics win though. Storm of vengence/firestorm x 100= win. The only thing more obsurd is AFTS, from BOVD. Thats a thousand or three miles radius odd... (Yes, i know this spell wouldn't be allowed for those reasons, but it makes a good example.) I would point out also to please change the bit about a level 50 character in the first post, since it is rather out of context - namely your level 50 being fodder for a normal one taken to its full conclusion, let alone a god which sort of throws out how effective we should assume these are. I was thinking you were somewhat of a fool with that assumption for example until that last explanation.
Praedoran 03-26-07, 05:02 PM	First of all, thanks for your input Khael. Yea, when it comes to abstractions, this system is a little difficult to pick up on. However, -everything- can be factored when you attain "divine rank", for lack of a better term. Even melee. For example, here's the set up: A lesser Demigod of War (Say the Elven Demigod of War), has 5 levels of Fighter. He faces off against one hundred ogres, CR 3. The player first attempts a trip attack. (Success) I narrate: "You leap into the air, clenching your fingers into a tight fist that begins to glow with a green aura. As you decend you let forth a mighty battle cry and slam your knuckles into the ground beneath you, sending a shockwave that tosses your foes about like ragdolls and shakes their footing. Everyone of them is sent sprawling on the battlefield. They stand up and player gets an attack of opportunity. (Success) As they scramble to their feet and the sergeants call for a regroup from the chaos, you take the moment of peace to begin charging your sword with divine power. As they all sprint towards their battle formations, they look back to see you slash through the air, sending a translucent and cresent shaped blade of air ripping through their ranks. Many of the Ogres die by the dozes as entire squadrons are cut down. End Example: Even the Fighter doesn't have to fight everything one on one at this level. He can shape the size and damage of his attacks as he needs to fight an army. The only catch is you can't bring down the scale if it's already an area attack. However, yes, the Druid and Cleric examples really only display the Fighter's inadequacies. But they should take careful note of using those spells when it affects such a wide radius. Last game a character used a Fire burst effect, 60 ft Radius (base), 6000 ft radius for a Demigod. He thought he had moved out of range from decimating a nearby Hamlet, but the collateral damage melted the ice caps of the surrounding mountains and sent a massive flood towards the town. Even Evil Demigods must be careful not to obliterate potential followers. Even though I'm not using Epic Characters, they seem to be on everyone's mind when they think "How do I fight a God? Epic Levels should do." That's why I gave the example. If you're in question though of if an army stands a chance against a PCs Demigod? Yes, but it takes some extreme measures. 2000 Clerics channeling into a mighty leader's Implosion Spell could do it. 100 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons could take out even the strongest of Demigods. The only way the PCs could counter this would be to put aside their differences and form an adventuring party (of divine beings). Everything still works just like normal D&D rules, only on a scale.
Khael 03-27-07, 10:30 AM	First of all, thanks for your input Khael. No problem, I'm always happy to bash people ideas (preferably with useful stuff, for obvious reasons) Yea, when it comes to abstractions, this system is a little difficult to pick up on. However, -everything- can be factored when you attain "divine rank", for lack of a better term. Even melee. For example, here's the set up: A lesser Demigod of War (Say the Elven Demigod of War), has 5 levels of Fighter. He faces off against one hundred ogres, CR 3. The player first attempts a trip attack. (Success) I narrate: "You leap into the air, clenching your fingers into a tight fist that begins to glow with a green aura. As you decend you let forth a mighty battle cry and slam your knuckles into the ground beneath you, sending a shockwave that tosses your foes about like ragdolls and shakes their footing. Everyone of them is sent sprawling on the battlefield. They stand up and player gets an attack of opportunity. (Success) As they scramble to their feet and the sergeants call for a regroup from the chaos, you take the moment of peace to begin charging your sword with divine power. As they all sprint towards their battle formations, they look back to see you slash through the air, sending a translucent and cresent shaped blade of air ripping through their ranks. Many of the Ogres die by the dozes as entire squadrons are cut down. End Example: Even the Fighter doesn't have to fight everything one on one at this level. He can shape the size and damage of his attacks as he needs to fight an army. The only catch is you can't bring down the scale if it's already an area attack. I see now, this is does make the fighter as viable (Maybe even more viable, even the below) as normal. However, yes, the Druid and Cleric examples really only display the Fighter's inadequacies. But they should take careful note of using those spells when it affects such a wide radius. Last game a character used a Fire burst effect, 60 ft Radius (base), 6000 ft radius for a Demigod. He thought he had moved out of range from decimating a nearby Hamlet, but the collateral damage melted the ice caps of the surrounding mountains and sent a massive flood towards the town. Even Evil Demigods must be careful not to obliterate potential followers. Nice, it sounds if used in everday events your fighters/clerics and druids will actually be far more useful that a wizard's high levels spells, due to their combat effects over blast radius. And here druid/clerics will rule even more as you know, but this time they're show-up most everyone even the wizards/sorcerers - A wizard's best direct combat spells are likely flashy with blasts, until they get save-or-dies. Druids and clerics... can hold those back and just increase their personal sizes/damages/attacks to inflict even more hurting. Though in war-based events, I still hold mortals will be nothing but fodder, when since a problem is at the very least minimised (Especially for a evil demi-god.) Even though I'm not using Epic Characters, they seem to be on everyone's mind when they think "How do I fight a God? Epic Levels should do." That's why I gave the example. The problem is though, its still a context thing, your demigods will be annihilated by a normal epic caster. And no, last I heard the board belief was still 'level 40 means you get to die in one piece, level 50 means you got to possibly survive so you could be hunted down if you were lucky' Normal generic demigods... probably won't have noticed what they just did to the same caster, in the same way a human wouldn't usually notice they just hit a fly. It is likely is is unture and it takes a lot more effort, but I don't see the caster winning vs a generic god. If you're in question though of if an army stands a chance against a PCs Demigod? Yes, but it takes some extreme measures. 2000 Clerics channeling into a mighty leader's Implosion Spell could do it. 100 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons could take out even the strongest of Demigods. The only way the PCs could counter this would be to put aside their differences and form an adventuring party (of divine beings). Everything still works just like normal D&D rules, only on a scale. 2000? One problem... implosion wielding clerics get killed. Still. (Implosion as you've noticed is about the best spell to kill these demigods, but has a close range. The nice army-killers? medium to long, so several times the range. And you don't miss a 2000 strong army channeling that much power. And I question whether those dragons could defeat one high level caster. Since presumedly normal damage is done but on behalf of a unit, pack or whatever, damage is therefore reduced as numbers drop? Becasue due to the range/effect of some spells (Assuming you use non-core at least), I can see a single demigod making a big dent in numbers (Orb spell, no SR, ranged touch. by the x100 effect, its likely 100 dragons would die or be nearly dead.). This is why i'm poking holes, I think it'll work and maybe well, but I don't believe enough effort has gone into the mechanics yet to make things work prefectly. Particularly at high levels (but then things are known to break down in high level paly to begin with). Out of interest, I assume as a counter of sorts, all high level mortal casters get the circle magic/metaconcert ability?
Praedoran 03-27-07, 04:55 PM	You've got many good points Khael. I guess I've explained perhaps how most of it will work, but as I plan on reeling more players into the mix, I'll no doubt get players who can really beat the system when playing high level casters. My current group doesn't contain a single power gamer. You seem to keep hammering the idea that the system caters best however, to the Solo/Nova classes (Cleric/Druid). That I can't help, Clerics and Druids are built that way and take that problem where ever they go. I'm assuming that what you're saying is that it's an important concept to make the Demigods self contained parties. Any ideas on making the "Long Haul" classes competetive with the "Nova" classes? I don't see much problems in Cleric vs. Wizard at the moment, as flashy Wizard spells still hold their importance (a clever player might even be able to use the collateral damage to his advantage), but the Fighter is balanced with a team mechanic and long haul design. Casters have the ability at high levels to Solo most anything and burst their damage and spells. In regards to Circle magic, Aye. Casters get to channel spells together while Melee gets tactical direction (thus allowing the entire unit to benefit from their abilities as well)
Bluehero 03-28-07, 01:43 AM	You're idea is interesting. At first when i read it I thought "an army based campaign with gods would be laughably easy, but you're rules seem to handle a lot of that. I'm doing a god campaign right now, but it is focused almost solely on god vs. god and mega epic monster combat. Your system is more of an interesting idea that gives gods a very "divine feel" instead of really badass epic characters with some extra powers thrown in. For catsers you could say that maybe the toll of granting spells tyo followers drains some of their spell slots, you could make them use up more slots since their effects are all x100. Since it is unlikely that they will face 4 equally leveled encounters per day then rest, you need to do something for casters, like maybe even have their effects be multiplyed by less of a factor or something? Like melee attacks are all x100 effect and casters are x75 or x50. Just a suggestion.
Khael 03-28-07, 04:54 AM	You've got many good points Khael. I guess I've explained perhaps how most of it will work, but as I plan on reeling more players into the mix, I'll no doubt get players who can really beat the system when playing high level casters. My current group doesn't contain a single power gamer. No doubt you will (though I do doubt the 'no power gamer' line. Not every power gamer is out for maximum power in the first place.) You seem to keep hammering the idea that the system caters best however, to the Solo/Nova classes (Cleric/Druid). That I can't help, Clerics and Druids are built that way and take that problem where ever they go. It doesn't, but since I don't know your books, I was limiting myself to core classes. Under Warmages, warlocks, (quite possibly adepts too, from what I've heard of their powers. Not to say their normally meant to be overly powerful though.), psions, psychic warriors, wilders, possibly duskblades and some of the incarnum powers are probably all going to be overtly powerful under their conditions as I understand them. The list is limited only to those classes, I have material on/have taken to understand the basic points on, not counting PrCs of course. And the problem is not nova-ing it single spells, that would normally be balancedd out by the fact they're small shot one-hitters, are now 100 mnoster slaying shots. The warlocks it seems can kill 100 every turn from 250 ft away while invisible and flying for 24 hours. The wizard(or indeed any blast wielding class) who once had problems where in a dungeon, fireball is liable to hurt you as much them, now just needs to dotonate that fireball down the dungeon mouth, and get out of the way of backdraft while it echoes for a 2000 ft radius. In the fact the only classes who'll suffer the more, that come to mind, are those with no trick but swinging a sword, or out of combat uses. So the fighter, ranger, rogue, etc. are while not useless, unlikely to ever has as much of any impact, outside of defense games, or a personal challenge (Because launhcing a 2000ft fireball wins wars but is pretty low grade for fighting Theodds the slayer, demigod of Rytu, since you'll probably kill off you're own men and lightly scathe him. The fighter will swing, strike etc. with no such reprocussions.) In other words, caster demigods win wars, but those who can fight up close will be truly deciding the fate of mankind by rite of combat. I'm assuming that what you're saying is that it's an important concept to make the Demigods self contained parties. I'm afraid I don't fully understand this question. How do you mean? Any ideas on making the "Long Haul" classes competetive with the "Nova" classes? I don't see much problems in Cleric vs. Wizard at the moment, as flashy Wizard spells still hold their importance (a clever player might even be able to use the collateral damage to his advantage), but the Fighter is balanced with a team mechanic and long haul design. Casters have the ability at high levels to Solo most anything and burst their damage and spells. Simple, throw in a couple of single small-to-huge hulks evey so often. Preferably in friendly zones. The x100 rules emans casters will be forced to buff up melee'rs as they're offensive spells will be too collerateral-inlcined to help without hindering the mortals. A swords-wingers now should and probably can limit this (A caster runs off magic, if he has as much power as a demigod it likely overflows (the X100), a warrior swings his sword, so to him its another muscle, he can just choose not to swing hard) so he can fight a single monster without side-effects. I hadn't gone into this really before but it is a good effect of your demi-god rules - the casters spells clearly don't get a choice, the fighter (from yuor example) is channeling by choice, therefore in any confined or limiting space the fighter classes are the ones who have to step up, as the casters will commit suicide if they fight. But to correct: 'Casters have the ability to Solo most anything and burst their damage and spells.' Not high levels. Any level, magic missile level 1 = 100 missiles 100-400 damage per hit auto-hitting. In regards to Circle magic, Aye. Casters get to channel spells together while Melee gets tactical direction (thus allowing the entire unit to benefit from their abilities as well) The old commander focus rule (The one where every in the units a caster or similar, but the one casting is always the leader, the rest just provide power or get the benefits off him) It's a good trick for battle play I think.
Praedoran 03-28-07, 10:49 AM	The concept of "Spells vs. Armies, Close Combat vs. Hulks " sounds very interesting. I'll throw in a few behemoth creatures into the mix and see what happens. Also, Bluehero, your idea of "Divine Conduits" gives me a really interesting idea I've not tried yet. Namely, Demigods can transfer spell slots to recharge their armies. Since this would obviously favor casters, the Melee guys should have some sort of Channel as well (Perhaps a Divine Strength feature to match the Divine Magic idea)? Combining your two suggestions together, I'm getting something along the lines of: "Spells do 100% damage to Armies, 50% Damage to Hulks. Non-Spell damage does 100% damage to Armies, 100% Damage to Hulks. Hulks also have an unnamed +6 Saving Throw bonus." Keep in mind, this simple ruling is for streamlining combat. For the Divine Magic and Divine Strength ideas, to make the players feel like the centerpiece of their crusading armies, I'll get back to you on what I come up with. At the moment, I'm running with a concept that "Casters can grant their followers spell slots" "Warriors can Aid Another to multiple armies at once. The Aid Another action grants a +2/+4/+6/+8 (AC 10/20/30/40), depending on the attack roll."
Khael 03-28-07, 11:27 AM	The concept of "Spells vs. Armies, Close Combat vs. Hulks " sounds very interesting. I'll throw in a few behemoth creatures into the mix and see what happens. Also, Bluehero, your idea of "Divine Conduits" gives me a really interesting idea I've not tried yet. Namely, Demigods can transfer spell slots to recharge their armies. Since this would obviously favor casters, the Melee guys should have some sort of Channel as well (Perhaps a Divine Strength feature to match the Divine Magic idea)? For the Divine Magic and Divine Strength ideas, to make the players feel like the centerpiece of their crusading armies, I'll get back to you on what I come up with. At the moment, I'm running with a concept that "Casters can grant their followers spell slots" "Warriors can Aid Another to multiple armies at once. The Aid Another action grants a +2/+4/+6/+8 (AC 10/20/30/40), depending on the attack roll." This might help though to even out the 'fighter in battlefield effect' given a single spell slot is not going to change that much, but the casters will have massive effects themselves, you could conside making warrior demigods the opposite - directly they'll do little (they can attack 100 enemies at close range, by then a caster will have wiped the same army out) so maybe they can aid another for some huge benefits - maybe +2(or the +2/+4/+6/+8 system you had) to saves, attacks, AC. so instead of the direct benefits a caster brings, a non-caster brings indirect beneifts maknig the troops much stronger. Combining your two suggestions together, I'm getting something along the lines of: "Spells do 100% damage to Armies, 50% Damage to Hulks. Non-Spell damage does 100% damage to Armies, 100% Damage to Hulks. Hulks also have an unnamed +6 Saving Throw bonus." Keep in mind, this simple ruling is for streamlining combat. I wouldn't be inclined to use this myself instead leaving it to clever strategy - where the players decide to use non-casters by choice rather than this forcing effect. Insert granting such monsters SR and elemental resistances might be more appropriate, since SR allows them to overcome many save or dies, and the resistances cover most other spells, without having to work out quick maths (50% of 35 isn't as quick to figure out as 35 take away fire resistance 15) And to clarify, by hulk I referred to any big monsters just to make sure you know (In this game you can't tell, for all I know you've got a hulk monster).