Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swordbreaker 05-21-07, 05:27 PM	Hey, I was making a campaign world based on the rouge-like game nethack. I was wondering on what domains from the PHB shoiuld be placed on each god, or if there is a list already.
queenfange 05-22-07, 07:10 PM	If you post the names and basic interests of the gods, we can probably suggest some domains, but not all of us are already familiar with Nethak.
Swordbreaker 05-23-07, 05:37 PM	Okay. Here is a list of the gods This list, property of the wikipedia of nethack, shows the roles that worship the god and the god's alignment Role: Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Archeologist: Quetzalcoatl/Camaxtli/Huhetotl Barbarian: Mitra/Crom/Set Caveman: Anu/Ishtar/Anshar Healer: Athena/Hermes/Poseidon Knight: Lugh/Brigit/Manannan Mac Lir Monk: Shan Lai Ching/Chih Sung-tzu/Huan Ti Priests have any god Ranger: Mercury/Venus/Mars Rogue: Issek/Mog/Kos Samurai: Amaterasu Omikami/Raijin/Susanowo Tourist: Blind Io/The Lady/Offler Valkyrie: Tyr/Odin/Loki Wizard: Ptah/Thoth/Anhur Other gods of Nethack Marduk: King of Good beings Moloch: King of evil beings Elbereth: Elven God of protection The Four Horsemen: Purely neutral immortal beings, in game, you can fight them, but I want to make them gods for my campaign
ArcTan 05-23-07, 08:19 PM	What do you want? Do you want info based on what these gods are like in real life (which is where most of these gods come from) or do you want something that fits their Nethack incarnations? FWIW, the gods in Nethack don't do very much, and Law/Neutrality/Chaos in Nethack is a lot more like Good/Neutrality/Evil in D&D, and the way the gods fit together is all mish-mashed and incoherent (like Nethack itself). Nethack doesn't really have enough of a mythos for you to really say you're going to "base a D&D setting on it".
ArcTan 05-24-07, 05:29 AM	Okay, here's a brief rundown if you really want. These don't correspond to the L/N/C of the gods in Nethack (which frequently make no sense) and are kind of vague, with a lot of help from Wikipedia, but it should be good for any attempt to insert these gods into D&D in general. These are all domains from PHB and SC. Quetzalcoatl -- LG greater deity. Feathered serpent god of light. Inspiration for the couatl race in D&D. Bringer of culture and civilization to the Aztecs. Air, Good, Knowledge, Law, Nobility, Windstorm. Camaxtli -- TN intermediate deity. God of the "wild" Chichimec people of the north, ancient Aztlan's equivalent of the D&D Barbarian. God of the hunt, war, fate, and bringer of fire (a la Prometheus), took fallen warriors to dwell with him in the sky. Animal, Fate, Fire, Strength, War. Huhetotl -- CN intermediate deity. Oldest of all the gods, but also appears as a virile young man -- said to dwell deep beneath the earth and to represent the ability to survive all hardship (feast during famine, light during darkness, warmth during cold, life after death). Was therefore associated with fire, and with the strength to rule by force. An "old god" compared to Quetzalcoatl, who demanded human sacrifice and devoured human hearts. Chaos, Earth, Fire, Hunger, Renewal, Tyranny. Anu - LN intermediate deity. The fact that the "Caveman" deities are Mesopotamian in origin makes very little sense except that Mesopotamian civilization is very old (though far from "caveman" levels). A sky-god who was later displaced by Enlil, Ea and Marduk, probably because his city, Uruk, was displaced in importance by Nippur, Eridu and finally Babylon, the city that firmly placed Marduk in his position as creator- and leader-deity (as we can see from Nethack). God of the night sky and the uppermost heavens, including storms and stars, as opposed to Enlil, god of the air. By the time of the mythology we have records of, he'd receded in importance to become a distant, impersonal judge figure. Inquisition, Law, Retribution, Storm. Ishtar - TN greater deity. Famously a villain (in the form "Ashtoreth") of the Bible, known for her temple prostitutes and orgiastic rites. Probably the most influential goddess of the region, later identified with Aphrodite and Isis. Goddess of war, sex, love and passion in general, proud and haughty. Identified with the "life-force". Animal, Healing, Lust, Plant, Pride, Renewal, War. Anshar - NE intermediate deity. Originally Anu's father and the first of the sky-gods. The pivot on which the heavens turn. An unimportant character until the Assyrians conflated him with their god Assur or Ashur (for whom their city and culture was named), making him into the ruler and creator-god in much the same way that Marduk, the god of Babylon, was made ruler-god by the Babylonians. Probably the "Chaos" god here primarily because of the Assyrians' reputation in the Bible of being heartless, bloodthirsty conquerors (since the Bible was written by their Israelite enemies). However, they weren't very Chaotic by any measure, given that we know Sargon had a reputation as a bringer of law and order. I've nonetheless given domains appropriate for the Biblical Assyrians. Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Tyranny, War, Wrath. Mitra - LG greater deity. A very common name for gods associated with light and the sun in Indo-European civilizations, Robert E. Howard used it as the name for the god of civilization and virtue in the Conan mythos, which is why it's referenced here. Primarily a foil for the other Hyborian deities, who are universally much nastier. Glory, Good, Healing, Law, Protection, Purification. Crom - CN intermediate deity. The Cimmerian "god of the mound" and Conan's patron deity, famed for his indifference to his worshippers and to most moral questions, serving only to observe and approve of glorious ventures of courage and honorable battle. Chaos, Courage, Strength, War. Set - CE greater deity. Ridiculously evil seven-headed serpent god of the Stygians and progenitor of the race of Serpent Men (inspiration for the Sarrukh of Forgotten Realms). Worshipped by Thulsa Doom in the Conan movie, and by numerous other evil-wizard types who have served as his avatar on Earth. Creator of the mind-controlling "Serpent Crown" that was the MacGuffin of many a classic Marvel Comics plot arc. Only bears a passing resemblance to the eponymous Egyptian deity. Chaos, Destruction, Domination, Evil, Magic, Mysticism, Scalykind. Athena - LG greater deity. You should know her already from Deities & Demigods. I've tweaked her domains a little to fit SC, though, to replace Artifice with Craft, and to point out that if anyone should have Planning she should. Community, Craft, Good, Knowledge, Law, Planning, War. Hermes - CG intermediate deity. See above. Hermes is the definition of Celerity in classic myth. Celerity, Chaos, Good, Luck, Travel, Trickery. Poseidon -- CN greater deity. See above. I'm giving him some domains that fit his classic demeanor and role (as the vengeful, dangerous god who had to be propitiated), as well as his role as Lord of the Ocean (i.e. the Atlantic Ocean) by way of being the Titan Oceanus' master, as well as directly Lord of the (Mediterranean) Sea. Chaos, Destruction, Earth, Ocean, Retribution, Water, Wrath. Lugh - CG greater deity. Famed culture-hero of Ireland, defeater of Balor king of the Formorians and the brilliant ruler of the Tuatha de Danaan. A great adventurer and poet as well as a warrior-king, a prototype of the D&D Bard. Chaos, Charm, Good, Nobility, Sun, Travel, War. Brigid - NG greater deity. Celtic Triple Goddess, appears as three triplets, and is known for her sacred healing wells and eternal flames. Goddess of knowledge and creativity and herald of spring. Conflated with St. Brigid of Kildare after the coming of Christianity. Community, Craft, Fire, Good, Healing, Knowledge. Manannan mac Lir - CG intermediate deity. Lugh's foster father, god of the sea, guardian of the Isle of Man and the Blessed Isles (i.e. land of the dead). Controls the means of sailing between worlds. Had a famous magic cauldron that could bring back the dead. A trickster who often causes trouble for humans in order to test them (similar to the Green Knight and Gawain), master of illusions. Chaos, Good, Illusion, Ocean, Portals, Renewal, Trickery. Shan Lai Ching - LN lesser deity. The actual Shan Hai Jing is, as the Nethack encyclopedia points out, a *book* akin to Herodotus' histories. I haven't seen any identification of Shan Lai Ching/Shan Hai Jing as a personified deity except in the woefully ill-researched Chinese pantheon entry in the old AD&D Deities & Demigods, along with that note in the Nethack encyclopedia, which they seem to have gotten from a capsule summary in a German "atlas of mythology", which makes me shake my head and sigh. (Maybe the D&DG writers read the same book.) Anyway, my best theory is that the German compiler of that book had a source that referred to the *writer* of the Shan Hai Jing by the name of his book, and the mythological writer of the Shan Hai Jing is Yu the Great, founder of the Xia Dynasty, a culture-hero and quasi-deity who fits the bill for an ancient Chinese deity quite nicely (Yu the Great was, for instance, the source for the Goa'ould System Lord Yu in Stargate: SG-1). Yu the Great was probably identified with the Shan Hai Jing ("Book of Mountains and Seas") because he was, indeed, associated with mountains and seas, specifically as the emperor who tamed China's rivers, ending a great flood by remaking the landscape, creating tributaries to drain the floodwaters. He is also a prime example of why much of ancient China's pantheon is what we'd consider LN rather than LG, thanks to their different standards of what a leader should be like. Legend praises him for passing his own family home only three times in the thirteen years he battled the floods and never once going in, because his duties as administrator were more important than any personal attachments. He is said to have united China by sheer will and determination -- but to not have been as morally perfect as his predecessor, Shun, who was widely praised for handing the empire to him because of his worthiness rather than his own sun. Yu the Great, sadly, founded the first imperial dynasty by lacking the same strength and letting his own son take the throne, establishing a precedent of hereditary rulership. All that aside, sure, I can see this guy as a deity of lawful rulership with power over the land and water. Domination, Earth, Law, Water. Chih Sung-tzu - TN intermediate deity. Y'know, if it were me doing it, I'd've made the L/N/C Chinese pantheon be Yu Huang (the Jade Emperor), Guan Yin (the Goddess of Mercy), and Sun Wukong (the Monkey King), which both fits the vague L/N/C stereotype really well and involves mythological characters people *actually know about*. But whatever, the Dev Team apparently thought it was wiser to use the most obscure names from the AD&D D&DG rather than the least obscure. Chih Sung-tzu, i.e. Zhi Songzi, has very little info on him scattered around. He was supposedly an attendant to the godlike Shennong Emperor, inventor of agriculture, and was given by him the title Lord of the Rain, and supposedly lives on a mountain far to the West that is unreachable by humans. That's all I know, and he's otherwise quite obscure, as can be attested to by the fact that his job has been taken in later legends by the four Dragon Kings without his noticing, apparently. AD&D greatly exaggerated his importance -- he's intermediate, if not lesser. Air, Storm, Water, Windstorm. Huang Ti - LG greater deity. Huangdi or Huang Ti is legitimately important, and became a major deity -- sometimes identified as the Jade Emperor or ruler of heaven himself -- long after his death (if he ever lived), but his primary role is as the legendary first ruler of China and ancestor of all the Han Chinese people. (Calling him simply a "war god" demonstrates the ignorance of the AD&D design people.) Creator of the South-Seeker, the world's first compass, used to defeat the war god and weather-controller Chi You (who may, in fact, be the same person as Chih Sung-tzu) when the Hmong people rebelled against the Han. Compiler of all legends and knowledge, tamer of demons (a la King Solomon), inventor of writing, and founder of the healing arts of Chinese medicine. Said to have ascended as a dragon rather than truly dying, hence the dragon being a symbol of the Imperial Throne and the Han calling themselves "Children of the Dragon". Dragon, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Magic, Nobility, Travel. Mercury - CG intermediate deity. I'm not sure what the deal is with making Rangers follow the Roman pantheon, since it's bound to introduce complications with the Greek pantheon, which the Roman pantheon apes. Still and all, we can try to find distinctions between the Roman Mercury and the Greek Hermes. The Romans, whose religion was more about everyday rites and practices than mythological stories, cared a lot more about Mercury's role as patron of traders and merchants (in fact, he's where we get our word "merchant") than mythological stories about him. Take away his most obviously Greek-mythological facet -- the stories about him as a lucky trickster -- and add appropriate wealth-based domains. Celerity, Chaos, Good, Greed, Trade, Travel, Wealth. Venus - CG greater deity. Basically like the Greek Aphrodite, but a much bigger deal and much more unambiguously a positive force for the Romans (whereas the Greeks frequently saw Aphrodite as dangerous and malicious in their myths about her). The Aeneid has her as the mythological ancestor of the people of Rome, and all. The Romans had her play many more specific roles than the Greeks did -- Wikipedia can tell you about her role as "Cloacina" (Purifier) and "Libertina" (Freewoman), which give us natural ideas for better domains to pile on her. Chaos, Charm, Family, Good, Liberation, Luck, Lust, Purification. Mars - CN greater deity. Also a bigger deal to the Romans than to the Greeks, and widely worshipped by the Romans, whereas for the Greeks he was mostly a villain. Seen as father of Romulus, the founder of the city, and therefore ancestor and patron of the ruling families of Rome. The original Mars had associations with agriculture and the protection of property before he became a god of war, and was at times, paradoxically, a healing god. Chaos, Healing, Nobility, Plants, Protection, War. Issek - LG lesser deity. From Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books. A purposely satirical deity who gains in importance when Fafhrd randomly decides to become his follower for a while -- a powerful man who devoted himself to a life of pacifism and let himself be brutally tortured and killed, and preaches that all other good people do the same. In this, a fairly blatant snipe at Christianity as a pie-in-the-sky religion aimed at the poor, the enslaved and the otherwise downtrodden. Ed Greenwood based Ilmater on him, though he toned down most of the obviously satirical aspects. Good, Healing, Law, Protection, Renewal, Strength. Mog - CN intermediate deity. The one the Grey Mouser sort-of worships, a god of fate, intrigue and deception who sponsors thieves and assassins. A spider in the middle of a great web. Chaos, Fate, Illusion, Planning, Spider, Trickery. Kos - CN intermediate deity. God of the barbarian tribes Fafhrd come from. Demands great courage and relishes going into battle. Brutish and stupid. Referred to as "Kos of the Dooms", signalling a control over fate. Chaos, Courage, Fate, Strength, War, Wrath. Amaterasu Omikami - NG greater deity. Sun-goddess, ruler of the kami and ancestor of the Japanese imperial family. Her light banishes all darkness. You know the drill. Glory, Good, Nobility, Purification, Sun. Raijin - CN intermediate deity. We mostly know him because of his depiction in Mortal Kombat as "Raiden". Not that big a deal in Japan originally -- wanders around hitting a drum to cause thunder and zapping little kids' bellybuttons if they don't behave. Originally a demon who was forced to work for good when captured by the Buddha. Air, Chaos, Destruction, Storm. Susanowo - CE greater deity. Black-hat god, evil brother of Amaterasu, who threatens her and nearly destroys the world with his power over the sea and storms (Raijin may have been one of his minions at this time), due to envy over her position as rightful inheritor of rulership of the world. Depicted as rearranging objects through the strength of the winds. Air, Chaos, Envy, Evil, Ocean, Windstorm, Wrath. Blind Io - TN greater deity. Apparently the Dev Team are a fan of old-school Discworld (the old Rincewind books), since they're using gods that are little more than jokes from these eras, rather than the more interesting gods that have followed (like Om). Anyway, Blind Io is depicted as a typical god of rain and storms with little interest in humanity, who maintains his rulership of the gods through constant vigilance -- his name is ironic, because he lacks eyes on his head while having remote eyes that roam the universe and see everything. Air, Knowledge, Oracle, Storm, Water. The Lady - CN greater deity. I don't know for the life of me why The Lady, who *personifies* random chance, unpredictability, and so forth is the "Neutral" deity here while Offler, a fairly inoffensive god who's notable for his common sense, is "Chaotic". Whatever. I guess it's because the Tourist class is default Neutral and the Lady does take a special interest in tourists. Chaos, Luck, Protection, Travel, Trickery. Offler - TN greater deity. The Crocodile God, who's become popular mainly because he's a relatively decent sort, for a god. Is known to be "trigger happy" when offended. Retribution, Scalykind, Strength, Water, Wrath. Tyr - LN intermediate deity. Already done in D&DG, though the Courage domain should definitely apply to him. Courage, Law, Protection, War. Odin - NG greater deity. Also from D&DG. Rune added because if anyone should know the secrets of runes, it's Odin -- the idea of runes having magic powers originally comes from his myth. Air, Good, Knowledge, Magic, Rune, Travel, Trickery, War. Loki - CE greater deity. Already done in D&DG, although other "sin" domains from SC may be appropriate. Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Gluttony, Hatred, Illusion, Trickery. Ptah - LN intermediate deity. Replacing D&DG's Creation with Craft, since Marduk is the sole creator in this universe, as well as making note of his role as god of the Twelve Hours of the Night. Craft, Darkness, Knowledge, Law, Travel. Thoth - TN intermediate deity. Adding the Balance domain, which describes the Egyptian Thoth if it describes anyone; also Planning. Balance, Knowledge, Magic, Planning, Rune. Anhur - CG intermediate deity. An air deity and war god from Nubia who became extremely popular in Egypt and seen as an aspect of Horus, linked to ideas of war as a source of liberation and freedom. Air, Chaos, Good, Liberation, Strength, War. Marduk - I would say overdeity, but you want him as a worshippable god with domains, so let's say NG greater deity. We're talking about Marduk here at his most abstract, the ruler of all people's destinies and creator of the whole universe, and the primary force for good in this narrative. Creation, Fate, Glory, Good. Moloch - NE greater deity. We're talking about Moloch here as a stereotype of an "evil god" -- *the* Evil God of Nethack -- and so we're going with the Biblical Moloch, most noted for sacrificing infants in the flames of his belly. His role in the story is as kind of a Lucifer-figure who steals the amulet, right? Destruction, Evil, Fire, Greed, Hunger, Pride. Death - TN demideity. There's a million and one interpretations of what the Four Horsemen from Revelation actually represent, but the pop culture version here has them as basically neutral natural forces that represent the events that occur as the world ends (this is how they're portrayed in Discworld, for instance, which Nethack references here). In any case, the Horsemen are certainly never portrayed as important enough to be deities in their own right -- even in Discworld, where in some ways they're more important than the gods, they're also shown to lack the autonomy and power of gods. Anyway, the Four Horsemen should share general domains that reflect the nature of what they do, and one domain that obviously reflects what they are. I'd say Destruction, Fate, and Suffering for all four horsemen, and Death, obviously, for Death. Famine - TN demideity. His special domain is Gluttony. Pestilence - TN demideity. Obviously, Pestilence. War - TN demideity. If you've played Nethack, you know that War doesn't actually appear in the game -- the player becomes War after her ascension. Upon which she probably gets the War domain. Elbereth - CG greater deity. Going with D&D saying that Elves are Chaotic (whatever, you can justify it). She's the goddess of the stars and Queen of the Vala, known for her tremendous abilities of perception, her dazzling beauty, and, yes, that her name acts as a warding charm against evil. Chaos, Elf, Glory, Good, Oracle, Protection. Well, that was a lot more typing than I originally planned to do, but it was fun, and I hope this helps -- not just with this but the general project of figuring out how deities work in real life and how that translates to a fantasy game.
Swordbreaker 05-26-07, 05:59 PM	Thats good, thanks you. I'll try to fit them together into a mythos along with the PHB gods and with some FR and Eberron