Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goldomark 10-25-07, 03:42 AM	In the really cool Demonomicon of Iggwilv article - Dragon 360 - it is said that maybe Pale Night, Graz'zt's mother, mated with Asmodeus. It's a theory, but worth exploring (I find it great). With Asmodeus for father, it would explain why Graz'zt is such a schemer/planner, why he is good at politics, is tempter ways, is ultimate goald of uniting all Demons and is Tyranny ability. It could explain is humanoid form too. Even is ambassador, Verin, acts like a Devil. Graz'zt has LE genes, but was raised the old fashion CE way. If the idea is explore in 4e, maybe the article is forshadowing 4e's Graz'zt, it would permit Graz'zt to stay a Demon, be humanoid and scheme instead of just destroying stuff or never existing at all. Asmodeus mating with a Demon, to weird? Well it is before the bloodwar and Pale Night is an Obyrith. It would be a grand scheme on Asmodeus's part. Planting is own seed in the garden of his rivals. I love it!
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-25-07, 09:38 AM	That's pretty crazy. However: Graz'zt has LE genes, but was raised the old fashion CE way. If he really was the son of a demon and devil, his alignment would be something like NE. He can't be raised CE, the alignment should normally be innate.
Witch 10-25-07, 09:52 AM	To the contrary, I'd say that the environment of the Abyss could alter his very innate nature, not just his education. In any case, the idea of Graz'zt being Asmodeus' son is not new.
sciborg3 10-25-07, 10:53 AM	Perhaps it was part of Asmodeus's attempt to find the seed of evil that is Tharizdun, going along with my theory that he worries his will is not his own but the seed's infection is what made him rebel.
goldomark 10-25-07, 12:26 PM	That's pretty crazy. However: If he really was the son of a demon and devil, his alignment would be something like NE. He can't be raised CE, the alignment should normally be innate. A half demon half devil would have 50/50 chance of being either LE or CE. But Graz'zt was raised in the abyss, so maybe is CE side triumph.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-25-07, 03:18 PM	I'm rather partial to Methikus sar Telmuril (the baernaloth) myself ;) But admittedly, I wouldn't be averse to Pale Night's seduction (or rape) of Asmodeus being the trigger for his fall from LN to LE. Pale Night is awesome. And to hit on the NE side of things a bit more, going with some assumptions, it would put a layer of seperation between the primordial fiends of the Waste and the baatezu who would end up displacing the ancient baatorians, but it would ultimately get their hands in that law flavored pie nonetheless without their existance even being recognized by Asmo.
ripvanwormer 10-25-07, 03:54 PM	The article makes it clear that Graz'zt's ultimate goal is Chaos (turning the Upper Planes into a maelstrom of Chaos, in particular) - he's just subtle and intelligent about it. He knows the benefits of allies and allegiances. He doesn't need diabolic blood to be smart. I much prefer the other ideas the article throws out - that his father is a baernaloth, or the Abyss itself. In one of my versions of Graz'zt's family tree, his father was Ades (mentioned in John Milton's Paradise Lost alongside Demogorgon, Orcus, Chaos, and the lady Night). I thought it was interesting that they canonized Xanxost's ramblings about Graz'zt's, Lupercio's, and Vucarik's family tree. I would've thought it would've been left as a rumor at best. I don't mind; I always liked the idea that several demon lords were Pale Night's offspring.
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-25-07, 07:01 PM	A half demon half devil would have 50/50 chance of being either LE or CE. But Graz'zt was raised in the abyss, so maybe is CE side triumph. I still say that nature trumps nurture 99% of the time. As far as the article's ideas go, I like him being a son of the Abyss, and his father wants him to acomplish the goal of uniting the demons that it couldn't do.
Witch 10-25-07, 07:11 PM	Why would the Abyss wish to unite the demons?
Thegans 10-25-07, 08:04 PM	Why would the Abyss wish to unite the demons? Actually it would make sense if you go by Fiendish Codex 1. If the demons are the Abyss'es tools to drawing everything back into the Abyss perhaps Graz'zt is the Abyss'es tool in the reabsorption of the demons. Really if you go by the theory that everything comes from the Abyss and that the Abyss wants everything to return to it then its basically the Abyss wanting to unite everything. Since making everything the Abyss would technically be uniting everything.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-25-07, 10:38 PM	Two other options depending on who the father is: If it's a pre-fall Asmodeus, Graz'zt's notion to unite and control the various factions of evil (admittedly towards a choatic end) might stem from a subtle influence of the tyranny possessed by his father. If it's a baernaloth, then he and Pale Night's children as a whole, might have a subtle instruction buried within their blood (and many of the first obyriths might as well) that would predispose them to eventually unite towards the goals of a monolithic Evil across the entirety of the lower planes. Personally I wouldn't ever give a solid answer on who the dad was. The mystery is fun, especially when giving so many fun options like James did.
Ryyam 10-26-07, 01:24 AM	I was really tantalized by these 2 possibilities: 1) 'the patriarch of an ancient race of immortal warriors from another reality' 2) 'that one of the Old Gods themselves, a cosmic entity of a thousand names and crawling chaos visited Pale Night from his own court at the center of the Universe, leaving her impregnated in an attempt to spawn a race of demons who would fill unknowable roles in his own dire plans for reality. Wow! It sets my heart all a flutter to see veiled references to the Lovecraftian mythos...
goldomark 10-26-07, 05:39 PM	The article makes it clear that Graz'zt's ultimate goal is Chaos (turning the Upper Planes into a maelstrom of Chaos, in particular) - he's just subtle and intelligent about it. He knows the benefits of allies and allegiances. He doesn't need diabolic blood to be smart. I much prefer the other ideas the article throws out - that his father is a baernaloth, or the Abyss itself. In one of my versions of Graz'zt's family tree, his father was Ades (mentioned in John Milton's Paradise Lost alongside Demogorgon, Orcus, Chaos, and the lady Night). I thought it was interesting that they canonized Xanxost's ramblings about Graz'zt's, Lupercio's, and Vucarik's family tree. I would've thought it would've been left as a rumor at best. I don't mind; I always liked the idea that several demon lords were Pale Night's offspring. Well, I agree that Graz'zt is a smart demon, so he can plan, but he has a weird agenda compared to other demons. More axed on him conquering then speading chaos. He is more ordered then is fallow demons too. Although with the randomness of chaos, he could just be the chaotic aspect of planning. The idea that Asmodeus was maybe raped by Pale Night is more attractive. It has more implications then a baernaloth sirering Graz'zt. A half breed demon/devil is far more interesting then a halfbreed demon/loth. Imagine the seen: Asmodeus to Graz'zt: I am your father and that is the truth! Graz'zt: Noooooo! Hmmmm... «Dad», we should talk... I think that in 4th they are going for that bit of history.
Lobsopdoy 10-26-07, 11:25 PM	It's pretty clear what's needed here. Maury! But when in doubt...Nyarlathotep did it. Personally, I don't like the Baernoloth thing quite as much. They seem to have their claws in everything.
ripvanwormer 10-27-07, 11:53 AM	Well, I agree that Graz'zt is a smart demon, so he can plan, but he has a weird agenda compared to other demons. More axed on him conquering then speading chaos. Nah. His ultimate goal is pretty much the same. He seeks to spread chaos and evil throughout the multiverse. Only his methods are different, and they're not even that different - I mean, Orcus and Demogorgon want to conquer everything just as much. Graz'zt is the only one actively trying to make an alliance with the hosts of Hell, but he only seeks to make them a tool toward his ends, not an equal partner. I don't think this makes him more lawful than other demons. He is, at least as I characterize him, utterly chaotic and whimsical, fond of randomness and strange juxtapositions. His tolerance of the idea of using beings of Law as a tool is just another example of how arbitrary he can be. A half breed demon/devil is far more interesting then a halfbreed demon/loth. There are already several examples of halfbreed demon/devils, including the Cathezar from Bastion of Broken Souls and Graz'zt's own half-brother Vucarik (said to be the son of Pale Night and a kyton). And a baernaloth isn't a yugoloth; it's an ancient being of pure evil that preceded any of the other fiendish races. It's a different level of being altogether. Saying he's the son of a baeraloth is like saying he's the son of evil itself, which is far more interesting than being the son of a being of lawful evil. The point of Graz'zt, as I see him, is that he represents one of the three major "faces" of the Abyss. Demogorgon is the madness and mutation of the Abyss; Orcus is the death and desolation of it; Graz'zt is the intelligent, charismatic, seductive aspect. To say that the intelligent, charismatic seductive side of demonkind is only the result of the taint of lawful evil diminishes the Abyss as a whole. As such, it's a very bad idea. 2) 'that one of the Old Gods themselves, a cosmic entity of a thousand names and crawling chaos visited Pale Night from his own court at the center of the Universe, leaving her impregnated in an attempt to spawn a race of demons who would fill unknowable roles in his own dire plans for reality. I like that idea - he'd be perfect as a son of Y'Chak from Lords of Madness (who is closely based on Nyarlathotep). "Y'chak is unique among the Elder Evils in a terrible way—it is actively interested in the development of life or, to be more precise, in the development of the destruction of life." Y'Chak seems to be to other Elder Evils as other Abyssal lords are to Graz'zt. Both in his appearance and personality, my characterization of Graz'zt is closely based on Lovecraft's Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos.
goldomark 10-27-07, 04:07 PM	And a baernaloth isn't a yugoloth; it's an ancient being of pure evil that preceded any of the other fiendish races. It's a different level of being altogether. Saying he's the son of a baeraloth is like saying he's the son of evil itself, which is far more interesting than being the son of a being of lawful evil. I would prefer to see Graz'zt the son of the Abyss itself before he is the son of evil itself. What Graz'zt does isn't more evil then is fallow demons. The possbility that he is part of the Abyss's plan to absorbe the multiverse, is more interesting/plausible. Maybe that is my problem. Something is lacking in Graz'zt ways to make him the son of a baernaloth. Sure he plots and has plans within plans, but its not the monopoly of baernaloths, devils are good at that too, hence the confusion and the appeal of making Asmodeus Graz'zt's father. Maybe if Graz'zt worked from the shadows (more so), was an ally/adviser of all the Demon Princes, was not wagging any open wars, especialy against Demogorgon (he should be is closest adviser, closer then Dagon), it would be plausible that Graz'zt had a baernaloth for father, it would be even appealing. The point of Graz'zt, as I see him, is that he represents one of the three major "faces" of the Abyss. Demogorgon is the madness and mutation of the Abyss; Orcus is the death and desolation of it; Graz'zt is the intelligent, charismatic, seductive aspect. To say that the intelligent, charismatic seductive side of demonkind is only the result of the taint of lawful evil diminishes the Abyss as a whole. As such, it's a very bad idea. Great representation of the three Princes. But the taint of the devils diminish the Abyss as much as the taint of the baernaloths. Both scenarios open up the possiblity that the Abyss cannot produce an «intelligent, charismatic, seductive aspect». I totally disagree with that assumption. The randomness of the Abyss should eventually produce such a demon. The real problem with Graz'zt (altough it's not really a problem), is not how Graz'zt act, but the fact that is father is of a unknowed origine and, maybe, does not originate from the Abyss. It open up all sort of scenario on the why Graz'zt act like this or like that, instead of him just being the «intelligent, charismatic, seductive aspect» of the Abyss.
sciborg3 10-27-07, 10:05 PM	To say that the intelligent, charismatic seductive side of demonkind is only the result of the taint of lawful evil diminishes the Abyss as a whole. As such, it's a very bad idea. I would agree with that, but I think the problem I have with making him a son of the baernoloths is that the baernoloths are ultimately loths, and it goes back to the theory of baernoloths/yugoloths being the "true", "ulimate" evil of which the tanar'ri and baatezu are mere scraplings of. I prefer the three evils to be distinct entities, each equal force and mystery in their own right...unless I'm reading Shemmy's story hour. ;)
ripvanwormer 10-28-07, 12:07 PM	the baernoloths are ultimately loths,) As long as you think of them that way, I can see why you'd have a problem with it. But baernaloths aren't ultimately yugoloths, no more than they're demons or devils. They're the thing that comes before any of them. The origins of demons and devils owe just as much to Chaos and Law, respectively, but Evil needs its place in the sun. Chaotic evil is a combination of chaos and evil, not a thing in itself. There were, at some point, beings of pure Evil and beings of pure Chaos before Chaotic Evil existed. The baernaloths are just as important to the evolution of the Abyss as the beings of pure Chaos (proto-obyriths) were. The "taint" of the baernaloths is the reason there's an Abyss at all; otherwise, it'd still be Limbo. In the preliminary 4th edition stuff we're seeing, they blame the evil of the Abyss on Tharizdun. Basically, he fills the same role. The baernaloths aren't yugoloths any more than Tharizdun is.
Witch 10-28-07, 12:14 PM	Chaotic evil is a combination of chaos and evil, not a thing in itself. There were, at some point, beings of pure Evil and beings of pure Chaos before Chaotic Evil existed. The baernaloths are just as important to the evolution of the Abyss as the beings of pure Chaos (proto-obyriths) were. The "taint" of the baernaloths is the reason there's an Abyss at all; otherwise, it'd still be Limbo. That's your opinion. Others hold that Chaotic Evil is just as Evil as Neutral Evil, and a distinct entity in its own right. To believe otherwise is to believe that Asmodeus or Demogorgon are somehow less Evil than the Baernoloths, which I simply don't buy into. They're equally Evil, just in a different way. I don't buy in "Pure Evil". There are nine alignments, and none of them is less pure than another, in my conception (in which I've been influenced by Kain Darkwind.)
ripvanwormer 10-28-07, 12:47 PM	There are several possible interpretations that I can see here. The first is that you can concentrate on pure Chaos, or you can concentrate on pure Evil, but if you try to concentrate on both at once there are going to be trade-offs. This is the one I favor. The second interpretation is that demons manage be just as evil as yugoloths and just as chaotic as slaadi with no trade-offs at all. This implies that demons are simply better than yugoloths - that all of a 'loth's focus on and dedication to their chosen alignment comes to nothing because demons can do that thing just as well, and do another thing just as well as another race that specializes in that thing. Another possibility is that Chaos (and Law) aren't as important in the cosmic scheme of things, that they're just another way of doing the same thing, so they aren't really a distraction at all. In that interpretation, there are really only three alignments, not nine. Maybe demons aren't as chaotic as slaadi, but no one cares because Chaos isn't as big a deal as Evil is. This was, as I recall, essentially Kain's argument. "Good or Evil is your goal, and Law or Chaos are how you do them." Since there are any number of situations in D&D where Law or Chaos are goals in themselves, and where Good and Evil boil down to the methods employed (i.e., law enforced through torture versus law enforced compassionately) this possibility was thoroughly debunked. As for the other possibility, see below. Others hold that Chaotic Evil is just as Evil as Neutral Evil, and a distinct entity in its own right. To believe otherwise is to believe that Asmodeus or Demogorgon are somehow less Evil than the Baernoloths If you believe that Chaotic Evil is truly distinct from Neutral Evil, then you can't even compare the two along a single "evil" scale. You can't say "Demogorgon is as evil as a baernaloth" because neither of them are evil, because there isn't an alignment called "evil" that means anything by itself. You can only say "Demogorgon is as much Chaotic Evil as the General of Gehenna is Neutral Evil." And I don't disagree with that at all. But if there is such a thing as Evil, and that there is a scale that can measure that, the baernaloths are that scale. They are that which allows Demogorgon to call himself Evil. This is somewhat academic, though, because at least the baernaloths of the Demented were defined in Planes of Chaos as Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, and Lawful Evil simultaneously - that's what made them demented. They're as much demons as they are yugoloths and as much devils as they are either of the other two races. Is that distracting? Doubtless! They're probably not as able at being Evil as their non-demented baernaloth kin. They make up for it by being precisely as evil as Demogorgon, the General of Gehenna, and Asmodeus simultaneously. Non-demented baerns are something beyond all three; they aren't Neutral Evil, but simply Evil. This is why the baernaloths are not "ultimately 'loths," and why they don't pose a threat to your notion of the equality of alignments.
Witch 10-28-07, 12:55 PM	For one, I don't buy into the theory that the baernaloths created all other fiends out there. To my knowledge, it was only ever stated in in-character version, mostly by people of dubious reputation. For another, I don't think you're prevented from holding that there is an objective standard of "Evil", but there is no exemplar of "Evil", only of "Lawful Evil", "Neutral Evil" and "Chaotic Evil", and all of these are just as Evil as one another. Ofcourse, this comes down to your interpretation number 2. However, I don't think exemplifying two alignments makes you "better" than another exemplar. It makes you different.
ripvanwormer 10-28-07, 01:19 PM	For one, I don't buy into the theory that the baernaloths created all other fiends out there. That's not important to this argument. I don't think they necessarily did, either. I think the Abyss is equal parts Chaos and Evil, not just corrupted Evil or corrupted Chaos. For another, I don't think you're prevented from holding that there is an objective standard of "Evil", but there is no exemplar of "Evil" If you believe there's an objective standard of something, you need to explain what it is that defines this standard. This something doesn't have to be personified, of course. Consider "baernaloth" to be shorthand for whatever you think that definition is. The fact that the word has the suffix "-loth" in it may be putting people off unnecessarily. The Abyss isn't personified either, so if Graz'zt can be the son of a nonpersonified Abyss, he can be the son of nonpersonified Evil. Of course, this comes down to your interpretation number 2. However, I don't think exemplifying two alignments makes you "better" than another exemplar. It makes you different. It means that a non-specialist is doing two things as well as a specialist is doing one thing. This isn't, in my experience, the way things work, unless the yugoloths are flawed in their efforts to personify their alignment in a way the demons are not flawed in theirs. Maybe the 'loths are just lazy? Kain, as I recall, suggested that the 'loths are as focused on Balance as demons are focused on Chaos. I can buy that - their concentration on the Balance is as much a distraction as the diabolic concentration on Law or the demonic concentration on Chaos. The baernaloths, however, care nothing for Balance.
Witch 10-28-07, 01:46 PM	While not directly focused on balance itself, I think, it does come down to that: they see the possible value in both Law and Chaos in specific situations and find the idea of relinquishing one for the other permanently to be obnoxious. But while I have a conception of the baernaloths, it's not the same as the standard planescape version; my representation has them as Neutral Evil, not Pure Evil. To me, they care for balance in the same way the yugoloths do.
Shemeska the Marauder 10-28-07, 01:56 PM	I prefer the three evils to be distinct entities, each equal force and mystery in their own right...unless I'm reading Shemmy's story hour. ;) *chuckle* The 1st SH is unabashedly focused on the 'loths, and much of the metaplot boils down to just what NE is, represents, and different facets of what represents it. The 2nd SH doesn't focus on them at all, and eventually gets around to the CE and LE side of things, though not as much saturated exposure as the 'loths got.
sciborg3 10-28-07, 03:05 PM	It means that a non-specialist is doing two things as well as a specialist is doing one thing. This isn't, in my experience, the way things work, unless the yugoloths are flawed in their efforts to personify their alignment in a way the demons are not flawed in theirs. But one does not specialize in Evil - unless one acribes to 'loth beliefs. For me, certain acts that are Evil can be categorized as returning Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic results. Of course what Neutral means is always up for grabs - is it balance or absence. For me, demodands represent, or at least attempt, NE as a blend of CE and LE. Loths seek to purify Evil and see NE as an absence of Chaos and Law. I suppose it suffices to say I don't find the baernoloths interesting enough to be the sole authors of the fiendish races. That's different, as you say, from saying Evil has no definitive source/standard.
Mirtek 10-28-07, 04:19 PM	For me, certain acts that are Evil can be categorized as returning Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic results. Really? Maybe it's actually that certain acts that are lawfull/neutral/chaotic can be categorized as returning evil results.
nabuchadnysar 10-29-07, 01:23 PM	Really? Maybe it's actually that certain acts that are lawfull/neutral/chaotic can be categorized as returning evil results. Nice! And it would explain why Chaos and Law are older then good and evil. Go Moorcock!
Lobsopdoy 10-29-07, 02:04 PM	Maybe if Graz'zt worked from the shadows (more so), was an ally/adviser of all the Demon Princes, was not wagging any open wars, especialy against Demogorgon (he should be is closest adviser, closer then Dagon), it would be plausible that Graz'zt had a baernaloth for father, it would be even appealing. Noooo...Graz'zt doesn't do this. But Verin...:eek:
Shemeska the Marauder 10-29-07, 02:25 PM	And it would explain why Chaos and Law are older then good and evil. Except they aren't older ;)
Lobsopdoy 10-29-07, 02:40 PM	Except they aren't older ;) *Colbert Eyebrow lift* 'splain?
Shemeska the Marauder 10-29-07, 03:12 PM	*Colbert Eyebrow lift* 'splain? In-game, IIRC the idea that law and chaos are older comes primarily from a work written by a mortal, the Black Scrolls, and its claims are on shaky ground (or false) when it concerns planar pre-history. The second source come from the core mythology of the Pact Primeval, which although it's presented from the perspective of beings of Law, and does its best to ignore anything that doesn't fall into a Law vs Chaos paradigm, it tacitly admits that Evil at least already existed as an outside source seperate from the planes of Asmodeus's conception. And then we have the histories of the demodands and the yugoloths, both of whom claim that the cardinal alignments sprang into being at the same time, none of them being older or younger than the others. Their legends come from their own experiences, and passed down to them from Apomps the Triple Aspected and the baernaloths respectively. While it's probably poor form to trust the personifications of evil, despair, and lies at their word, the obyrith lord Cabiri the Watcher discovered enough during his own exploration of the deeper layers of the Abyss to prompt him to seek them out. His efforts to finding out the truth of his kinds' true origins hit a bit too close to home it seems, and ended up getting him imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness, and what Cabiri found directly contradicts the claims of the Black Scrolls. There was a lot going on in the early history of the planes, and only looking at it from the actions and history of one ideological faction of the whole doesn't give a full picture. The notion of Chaos and Law being oldest, and good and evil only appearing later, while delightfully Moorcockian in some ways, doesn't really have much grounding in the history of the D&D planes taken as a whole. YMMD :)
Lobsopdoy 10-29-07, 04:40 PM	In-game, IIRC the idea that law and chaos are older comes primarily from a work written by a mortal, the Black Scrolls, and its claims are on shaky ground (or false) when it concerns planar pre-history. The second source come from the core mythology of the Pact Primeval, which although it's presented from the perspective of beings of Law, and does its best to ignore anything that doesn't fall into a Law vs Chaos paradigm, it tacitly admits that Evil at least already existed as an outside source seperate from the planes of Asmodeus's conception. And then we have the histories of the demodands and the yugoloths, both of whom claim that the cardinal alignments sprang into being at the same time, none of them being older or younger than the others. Their legends come from their own experiences, and passed down to them from Apomps the Triple Aspected and the baernaloths respectively. While it's probably poor form to trust the personifications of evil, despair, and lies at their word, the obyrith lord Cabiri the Watcher discovered enough during his own exploration of the deeper layers of the Abyss to prompt him to seek them out. His efforts to finding out the truth of his kinds' true origins hit a bit too close to home it seems, and ended up getting him imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness, and what Cabiri found directly contradicts the claims of the Black Scrolls. There was a lot going on in the early history of the planes, and only looking at it from the actions and history of one ideological faction of the whole doesn't give a full picture. The notion of Chaos and Law being oldest, and good and evil only appearing later, while delightfully Moorcockian in some ways, doesn't really have much grounding in the history of the D&D planes taken as a whole. YMMD :) I guess that works. I don't like to look at the conflict between Law and Chaos that much myself, but I didn't think it was really an "official" line. Official meaning subscribed to by people other then myself :P
Thanael 10-31-07, 07:51 AM	It means that a non-specialist is doing two things as well as a specialist is doing one thing. This isn't, in my experience, the way things work, unless the yugoloths are flawed in their efforts to personify their alignment in a way the demons are not flawed in theirs. Maybe the 'loths are just lazy? But then again isn't laziness a cardinal virtue in itself for the loths?
sciborg3 10-31-07, 12:27 PM	i worry that making Evil an elemental force robs it of meaning. Order and Chaos as alignments are just as old as Good/Evil, but as primordial forces of Variance and Pattern they predate the concept of choice...unless we go with the idea that everything is alive and as such the *potential* for Good/Evil was inherent in all things...and the Outer Planes are in some sense representations of potential....and now we're in some kind of thought-breaking conceptualization of the Planes as being everpresent potentialiaties that have somehow crossed over to become actualities interacting with the rest of creation... i love this game. :D
Malcadon 10-31-07, 12:46 PM	I'm a big fan of Graz'zt! I even got a cool pic of him in my gallery (The pic I made of him looks a lot like Lucifer. Warning my gallery is NSFW). That guy is so cool and roguish. I can so see him as an Angel that was cast out from Heaven and then as a Devil, striped of his wings and cast out of Hell! That sounds so dame cool!!! :D
Gray Richardson 11-08-07, 09:52 PM	The notion of Chaos and Law being oldest, and good and evil only appearing later, while delightfully Moorcockian in some ways, doesn't really have much grounding in the history of the D&D planes taken as a whole.It should be noted that in the original D&D rules set (not the first edition AD&D, but the earlier white-box pamphlets) the only alignments were Law and Chaos (and Neutral). Good and Evil did not exist as alignments in D&D in it's first incarnation. Truth be told, Gygax and/or Arneson were big Moorcock fans and took their alignment system directly from Moorcock (and some might argue also Poul Anderson). Good and Evil definitely came later, although they were fully in place as part of the alignment system by the time that AD&D was launched.
setekh 11-09-07, 09:19 AM	I still say that nature trumps nurture 99% of the time. As far as the article's ideas go, I like him being a son of the Abyss, and his father wants him to acomplish the goal of uniting the demons that it couldn't do. Given that society has argued this point for millennia with no conclusion, I'd say it's still pretty much in the air..
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-10-07, 10:56 AM	Given that society has argued this point for millennia with no conclusion, I'd say it's still pretty much in the air.. Normally I'd agree, but this is (supposedly) a demon we're talking about, who's made from the souls of Chaotic Evil people.
aelryinth 11-11-07, 12:48 AM	Normally I'd agree, but this is (supposedly) a demon we're talking about, who's made from the souls of Chaotic Evil people. Actually, only some Demons are made from the souls of CE people. Graz'zt is the son of Pale Night...he's a natural born demon. Demogorgon got spit up by the Abyss itself. Pale Night came from somewhere before mortal souls were even coming to the Abyss. Orcus is a tanar'ri, one of the 'new' demons that actually IS an evil mortal soul, come to a CE 'enlightened state.' ===Aelryinth
ripvanwormer 11-11-07, 12:35 PM	But then again isn't laziness a cardinal virtue in itself for the loths? No. Yugoloths have no particular affinity for the so-called "deadly sins" (an arbitrary list that doesn't map directly with Evil) and they're definitely not stupid enough, in the upper ranks, to promote inefficiency among themselves (the yagnoloths are something of a special case - as puppet-rulers of the yugoloth race, they provide greater yugoloths with the cover of plausible deniability). While sloth among the good can help permit the spread of evil, the same applies in reverse - slothful villains don't spread evil as well as active, engaged ones. Yugoloths want to spread evil, so they're certainly not lazy about it. Some tanar'ri breeds do seem to be personifications of the deadly sins (succubi born from lust, alkiliths from sloth, balors from wrath, glabrezu from envy, and so on), at least according to James Jacobs. The Seven Deadly Sins are wild, chaotic urges, born from the loss of control to animalistic drives. They're more demonic than purely evil. Similarly, the Seven Virtues map better to the archons than they do the guardinals.
ArcTan 11-16-07, 07:21 PM	It should be noted that in the original D&D rules set (not the first edition AD&D, but the earlier white-box pamphlets) the only alignments were Law and Chaos (and Neutral). Good and Evil did not exist as alignments in D&D in it's first incarnation. Truth be told, Gygax and/or Arneson were big Moorcock fans and took their alignment system directly from Moorcock (and some might argue also Poul Anderson). Good and Evil definitely came later, although they were fully in place as part of the alignment system by the time that AD&D was launched. OD&D L/N/C was based on *lazy* Moorcock, though -- the simplistic "Law = Good (with some exceptions), Chaos = Evil (with some exceptions)" of the early Elric stories.