Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 02:48 AM	I was hoping that you people could give me some help with a little problem i have! In the campaign i'm currently running, sooner or later (Most likely later!), i would like to have my players interact with several of Graz'zts minions, and even an audience or two with the big guy himself, and just for completeness sake, i would like to have his stats at hand. To make him a more versatile, i would like to have Graz'zt able to cast Epic Spells, so i'm going to give the version of him i am using, spellcasting as a 20 lvl sorc, and i wondered how much that would boost his CR by?
Witch 04-15-07, 02:52 AM	Without regrabbing my Fiendish Codex, I suspect it'll increase by 3-4. (Though note: the stats in that book aren't "Graz'zt", they're just one of his aspects, as noted by the designers).
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 03:22 AM	Yeah, i know. So far my build of him is: The version from HotA advanced 4 hd and with the Half-fiend Template on top. With Spellcasting i'd consider this the "Real" Graz'zt and use the one from HotA as the aspect. Thanx.
Witch 04-15-07, 03:23 AM	Why add in the Half-Fiend template? It doesn't really make sense, given the fact that he is a full fiend. (and I disagree with considering that the real Graz'zt - it doesn't match up to a deity at all, that way, but I'll not get into that.)
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 04:03 AM	The Half-fiend template was simply to describe his closer connection to the Abyss, not that he is a half-fiend, he is just more fiend than most other fiends.
Witch 04-15-07, 08:12 AM	I can understand wanting to describe a closer connection to the Abyss. What I don't see is how making him a half-fiend, something which doesn't make sense at all (and the CR adjustment of which is going to be too large, as Graz'zt almost has all the benefits of it already), helps with that. Advancing him a few more hit dice and granting him a few new abilities will help far more than making him a half-fiend.
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 08:35 AM	I used the half-fiend template as a kind of Greater Fiendish Template, as it would give him a couple of new Spell-likes and ability boosts. At first i considered to simply give him the Fiendish Template, but it was simply to weak! I could have just given him some more HD and a few off the book tricks, but that would either lead to his CR going way over, or way under the mark (I am terrible at guessing CR's!)
Khael 04-15-07, 09:09 AM	The half-fiend is hardly useful on Graz'zt, he's already powerful, he has a heap of SLAs to begin with etc. You might as well give him a divine rank of 1 and alter reality SDA. Full hp, bonus to saves, attacks etcs, at will spells from his domains and then he can in effect use wish to produce any 9th level or less spell at will. Or use the 20 spellcasting, a DvR 1 and divine spellcasting SDA, which lets him use epic spells. For the record the above is not a joke, as the BOVD suggest you can give the archfiends DvR. Also the SDAs allow for any number of 'off the book tricks' i.e. he really can point and someone dies.
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 09:34 AM	The thing i'm doing with Graz'zt and Dvr is to give hime Dvr 1 in Azzagrat, Dvr 0 in the Abyss, and no Dvr anywhere else. I'm doing this to all of the Demon lords, with the exception of Demorgorgon, who is way out of the others league as i have him at Dvr 15, so calling him a mere Demon Prince aint exactly fair!
Khael 04-15-07, 09:44 AM	Ah, the old 'Demogorgon is THE demon' idea... Not one that I agree with, but... meh your world. I should point out perhaps better is DvR 1 in Azzagrat, and Dvr 0 or none anywhere else. After all if he gets power in another being's domain, other planes should be no problem. But still, what it sounds like you want can and should be done done with the right SDA, rather than a normal template - half fiend/fiend won't help that much in such cases - since its quite possible all those SLAs will be redundant thanks to domain spells. 1/day blasphemy is nothing to the same spell at will.
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-15-07, 10:45 AM	You're properly right. Looking back at the stats, he doesnt seem to get much but Ability score boosts. Thanx for the advice.
Tarascon 04-15-07, 01:09 PM	God, where is DiceFreaks when you need them the most?
DrMorganes 04-15-07, 01:41 PM	Fighting off a mass of Outsiders intent on destroying the organization responsible for bringing their secrets to light?
Tarascon 04-15-07, 03:23 PM	Fighting off a mass of Outsiders intent on destroying the organization responsible for bringing their secrets to light? Dude, I should put that in our 'DiceFreak's Slogan' thread. So far our favorite is 'Stat the Un-statable', but 'If we're not here we're fighting off a mass of Outsiders intent on destroying the organization responsible for bringing our secrets to light' has a nice ring to it.
Witch 04-15-07, 04:37 PM	I prefer the unofficial slogan "Even our Downtime is Epic". It's appropriate.
Doom_Linnorm 04-15-07, 04:44 PM	"Where everything is Epic." "If you look in the dictionary for Epic you'll find Dicefreaks." "You call that Epic? TRY THIS!" Just a few ideas that popped into my head.
AQuebman 04-16-07, 10:57 AM	Doesn't the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness have Graz'zt already layed out or are you trying to take that template and add to him??
Khael 04-16-07, 11:24 AM	Yeah... layed out.... Some people feel even those stats (And when I say, even those, I compare to what I've heard of FC ones.) are basically... totally crap made to let some half-brain epic PC feel good about himself. However (and more to the point) CyperionTheShadeBlade is using the FC stats for the aspect of Graz'zt, and this templated spellcasting version for the 'real' Graz'zt.
Kain Darkwind 04-16-07, 02:56 PM	Here's a version of Grazzt I did for my personal campaign. It might help you out if you want a rougher tougher demon prince without making him a god. Graz’zt Large Outsider (Chaotic, Demon, Evil, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 55d8 + 715 (1155 hp) Initiative: +22 Speed: 40 ft. AC: 73 (+20 deflection, +14 Dex, +12 insight, +18 natural, -1 size) touch 55, flat-footed 73 Base Attack/Grapple: +55/+71 Attack: Umbrancor +74 melee (3d6+26 plus 3d6 vile acid 17-20/x2) or +68 ranged touch Full Attack: Umbrancor +74/+69/+64/59 melee (3d6+26 plus 3d6 vile acid 17-20/x2) Space/Reach: 10 ft. /10 ft. Special Attacks: Eldritch blast +25d6, invocations, sneak attack +10d6, spell-like abilities, summon demons Special Qualities: Aura of ease, cosmic entity, damage reduction 40/greater epic good, and cold iron, darkvision, evasion, fast healing 40, immunity to electricity and poison, Prince of Shadow, resistance to acid 30, cold 30, and fire 30, promotion, spell resistance 52, telepathy 1000 ft., temptation Saves: Fort +42, Ref +43, Will +41 Abilities: Str 34, Dex 38, Con 36, Int 43, Wis 35, Cha 50 Skills: Appraise +54, Balance +26, Bluff +94, Concentration +71, Craft (alchemy) +36, Craft (leather) +36, Diplomacy +114, Disguise +78 (+84 acting), Escape Artist +72 (+74 ropes), Forgery +24, Gather Information +82, Hide +68, Intimidate +88, Jump +28, Knowledge (arcana) +74, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +74, Knowledge (religion) +74, Knowledge (the planes) +74, Listen +70, Move Silently +74, Open Lock +24, Perform (dance) +74, Perform (oratory) +60, Perform (stringed instruments) +54, Search +34, Sense Motive +72, Sleight of Hand +78, Spellcraft +80, Spot +70, Survival +12 (+18 on other planes), Swim +22, Tumble +26, Use Magic Device +78 (+84 scrolls), Use Rope +34 (+40 bindings) Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Item, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Negotiator, Persuasive, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Violate Spell-like Ability Epic Feats: Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Bluff), Epic Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: The Abyss Organization: Solitary (unique) Challenge Rating: 44 Treasure: Quintuple Standard Alignment: Chaotic Evil Invocations (Sp): Graz’zt possesses the invocations and eldritch blast of a 55th level warlock. His eldritch blast deals 25d6 points of damage and is considered an attack action for Graz’zt, which means he can use it in conjunction with other attacks in a full round. Graz’zt is still limited to one eldritch blast per round. Invocations known: Baleful utterance, beshadowed, chilling tentacles, dark discorporation, dark one's own luck, devour magic, eldritch spear, enervating shadow, hideous blow, path of shadow, vitrolic blast, voracious dispelling. Spell-like Abilities: Always active- detect good, detect law, detect magic, true seeing; at will-bestow greater curse, blasphemy, cruel disappointment, damning darkness, darkbolt, desecrate, detect thoughts, discern location, distort summons, dread word, entice gift, eyebite, forbiddance, Graz’zt's long grasp, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, insanity, magic missile, mass charm monster, mirror image, polymorph, soul bind, suggestion, telekinesis, unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight, wall of iron, wretched blight; 6/day- dominate monster, polymorph any object; 3/day- disintigrate, trap the soul, shapechange, veil. Caster level 55th; DC 30+spell level. Summon Demons (Sp): 6/day, Graz’zt can summon 40HD worth of demons. Aura of Ease (Su): Those within 30 feet of Graz’zt take a -6 penalty to Bluff, Sense Motive and Initiative checks. Those who would attack Graz’zt must succeed in a Will save (DC 52) or choose another target. This does not apply to those whom Graz’zt has personally attacked within the last 24 hours. Cosmic Entity: Graz’zt is entitled to rank checks against deities and other cosmic entities. Graz’zt has a +6 to rank checks. Cosmic entities are not subject to the +4 strata differential. Prince of Shadow: While in shadow, Graz’zt's spell-like abilities and invocations are swift actions, of which he can take 6 in a single round. (Eldritch blast is still an attack action) Attacks directed at Graz’zt while in shadow have a 50% miss chance. While in shadow, Graz’zt has a +6 competence bonus to all d20 rolls, including attacks, saves, skills and rank checks. Promotion (Ex): Graz’zt can promote lesser demons into greater forms at will. If the creature in question does not possess the proper HD for the new form, Graz’zt receives a number of negative levels equal to the difference. Graz’zt must make a Fortitude save (DC 45) after 24 hours for each of these negative levels or they become permanent level loss. Temptation (Ex): Graz’zt can offer a mortal anything within the power of Alter Reality in exchange for his soul. The victim’s alignment shifts to Chaotic Evil. If the mortal fails a Will save (DC 52), he feels condemned to his fate and will make no attempt to alter it. Possessions: Graz’zt possesses a multitude of magical items of great power, and is likely to employ a variety of such in combat. He wields the curved greatsword Umbrancor in combat, which is a +8 keen greatsword of mighty cleaving. The blade also secretes acid into the wounds it inflicts, dealing 3d6 points of vile acid damage which continues for the following six rounds. This damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. *Designer's note. Cosmic entity means that he has all the same immunities as a DvR 0 deity does. In order for a god to penetrate one of his immunities, the god makes an opposed rank check (d20 + DvR) against Graz'zt. (d20 + 6)
pratputajao 04-17-07, 02:14 PM	Ah, the old 'Demogorgon is THE demon' idea... Not one that I agree with, but... meh your world. Huh? He IS the biggest Demon badass is he not? In 3.5e (and before) he is listed as the MOST powerful....whats the problem? Actually My own problem is the very low CR cap placed on ALL demons becouse he is the most powerful. He is listed at ..Stand back ...23 CR!!! Wow a whole three above a standard balor. Going with this logic there is not a demon lord ANYWHERE that can stand up to Asmodieus 27CR becouse all Demon lords are 'capped' at 23CR (though an advanced Balor can be MUCH higher....makes a whole lotta sence) Also If you look at Demon lord stats they are all very simmilar, kinda lame for a group of beings that are partially known for there great variaty (the chaos thing) who thought this up? It isnt very well thought out at all. I know this has been discussed to death, its just a pet pieve of mine. sorry, OT
Witch 04-17-07, 02:18 PM	Huh? He IS the biggest Demon badass is he not? In 3.5e (and before) he is listed as the MOST powerful....whats the problem? Not 14-divine-ranks-more-powerful.
Echo_that_Pains 04-17-07, 02:24 PM	Just to point out once again (Witch already did in post #2) that the stats in the FC's are just avatars, not the demons/devils themselves. The actual stats for the lords are in the BoVD which is 3.0 format, but easily upgradeable and still useable. In reality Demogorgan, Graz'zt, and Orcus are about on the same level. They are always at war, but none are able to defeat the other. Yes Demo has the highest CR of them all, but power wise there is little difference.
Witch 04-17-07, 02:27 PM	The actual stats for the lords are in the BoVD which is 3.0 format, but easily upgradeable and still useable. Those aren't that much better :D
pratputajao 04-17-07, 02:48 PM	Not 14-divine-ranks-more-powerful. agreed
Naderion 04-17-07, 02:51 PM	If you think they are to weak, make them stronger. Isn't really that hard...
Khael 04-17-07, 05:34 PM	Huh? He IS the biggest Demon badass is he not? In 3.5e (and before) he is listed as the MOST powerful....whats the problem? As has been said I don't think of the official one even by fluff as DvR 15 to everyone elses DvR1. And by THE demon, I mean the school of idea sometimes used in homebrews (Tales of Wyre, I believe the name is, for a good one) or theories, that Demogorgon is not a Taner'ri but some ancient monster of CE, in other words not THE demon for being prince of demons, but for being... well THE demon, biggest, baddest, oldest, plane ancient monster (The Ahriman of Chaos almost, to compare it to the Serpent idea). Like I say that ones isn't one I agree with, but it exists. I do however know Demogorgon is one of the biggest baddest monsters with the subtype Tanner'ri to exist. But thats hardly DvR 15-worthy.
pratputajao 04-18-07, 09:44 AM	As has been said I don't think of the official one even by fluff as DvR 15 to everyone elses DvR1. Like I say that ones isn't one I agree with, but it exists. I do however know Demogorgon is one of the biggest baddest monsters with the subtype Tanner'ri to exist. But thats hardly DvR 15-worthy. I will agree +14 DvR is a bit much... But I use a version MUCH closer to Dice freaks than to the "official" books. According to the BoVD he is the most powerful demon and it is said of both Grazzt and Orcus that they couldnt beat him 1-1. He may not be much more powerful, but is more powerful. Though I dont do it I have no problem with making him something apart from the others, something more primal and anciant. One theory in the Fiendish codex I is that demons are basically the "Runnoff" from Gods and devils....pretty lame if you ask me. Anyway My problem is the official cap placed on all demons so that Ubber kewl power players could take them out and get their stuff.. Stupid!
Orion72 04-18-07, 09:58 AM	Cyperion: If your players are simply interacting with Graz'zt and his court, rather than outright fighting them, do you really need to pin down an accurate CR? Does he even need to be fully statted?
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-18-07, 11:13 AM	My players aren't interacting with Graz'zt and his court yet, they are currently at level 6, and i plan for them to start getting contact at lvl 11-14, and perhaps gaining an audience at lvl 16-17, and as they are levelling up really quickly right now, they will properly be there in 2-3 months time. I could properly do without the exact stats, but it would make it easier for me to erastimate what would be considered a threat to the big guy, how strongly he would react to different actions they would take, what kind of wards he's got in Azzagrat and stuff like that. As has been said I don't think of the official one even by fluff as DvR 15 to everyone elses DvR1. And by THE demon, I mean the school of idea sometimes used in homebrews (Tales of Wyre, I believe the name is, for a good one) or theories, that Demogorgon is not a Taner'ri but some ancient monster of CE, in other words not THE demon for being prince of demons, but for being... well THE demon, biggest, baddest, oldest, plane ancient monster (The Ahriman of Chaos almost, to compare it to the Serpent idea). Like I say that ones isn't one I agree with, but it exists. I do however know Demogorgon is one of the biggest baddest monsters with the subtype Tanner'ri to exist. But thats hardly DvR 15-worthy. I have been inspired by the Tales of Wyre:D, but in my cosmology he is much more like your everyday diety of Madness, slaughter, evil, and destruction added a very large amount of weirdness. Much like the diety demons worship (I know that alot of people would seriously disagree with the princip of demons having a diety, but i have a very weird cosmology!)
Khael 04-18-07, 03:38 PM	Generally? I'd just assume if the PCs can do it, he can counteract it, bar summoning by a high-epic character, or another power going for the throot (I.e. demogorgon). Remember even if he personally cannot ward stuff etc., his power is such he has thousand to millions who would jump though heavenly hoops to get the legup such a job for the dark prince would give. Especially since he would employ several to cover any holes the others left in the defenses. And Demogorgon as God of demons? That kinda explains things (Though I would myself be hard-pushed to imagine of a god OF demons, that demons worship. Unless you have it as he came into being as the total of the sum of every slaughter worshipping demon, or similar so they don't even know or accept the fact, but he is. That I'd get.)
CyperionTheShadeBlade 04-18-07, 04:10 PM	And Demogorgon as God of demons? That kinda explains things (Though I would myself be hard-pushed to imagine of a god OF demons, that demons worship. Unless you have it as he came into being as the total of the sum of every slaughter worshipping demon, or similar so they don't even know or accept the fact, but he is. That I'd get.) He is the very incarnation of their nature, the more they act like demons, the more powerful he gets. Most demons are so terrified of him that they fear to even know anything about him, but the few really powerful demons (IE Demon lords and princes) knows that they are unwillingly strengthening him and despises the fact, and constantly seeks a way to overthrow him. The more they plot, the more powerful he gets!
sebastienurbanek 05-18-07, 12:15 PM	If you want more stats for Graz'zt go to: www.dndadventure.com and see in creature crypt (book of demons with stats for 3;0 D&D) or epic demon lords for stats based from FC2.
Thanael 05-21-07, 04:15 AM	Check out Sepulchrave's CR30-ish Grazzt from his famous story hour: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=5652&page=11&pp=40
runestar 05-21-07, 05:11 AM	Actually, it was stated that Grazzt's stats from FC1 was the real deal. The game designers simply screwed up on that one (and later backtracked when they made the devil princes "unofficial" avatars). It was quite obvious that the statement issued later was in response to the public outcry of a "unbridled force of evil" being weaker than a balor...:rolleyes:
Gyrofthewastes 05-21-07, 08:59 AM	Seems entirely reasonable giving him a divine rank to -me-, considering that Iuz (Greyhawk demigod) is supposedly his son...
Bob the Efreet 05-21-07, 04:42 PM	Actually, it was stated that Grazzt's stats from FC1 was the real deal. The game designers simply screwed up on that one (and later backtracked when they made the devil princes "unofficial" avatars). It was quite obvious that the statement issued later was in response to the public outcry of a "unbridled force of evil" being weaker than a balor...:rolleyes: If you don't trust the people who wrote the book as to their intentions, what can you possibly determine as a reliable source for your claim?